CBH Experts Requested - Honest Opinion on this newp
lermish
Posts: 3,306 ✭✭✭✭✭
I had my eyes out for a CBH for my type set but it has been tough going with strong prices recently. I managed to snag what I think is a pretty good example for what I wanted to pay on GC last night. While I would love a toned MS coin I really did not want to spend several thousand dollars, at least for now. Maybe an upgrade in a few years.
My crudely amateurish opinion based on the pictures: I see a coin that may have been a bit overdipped and may be overgraded. Looking at comps and my grading book this looks like a solid 55 but 58 may be a bit of a stretch. But I also see a nice strike, cool hair definition with the existing patina, and fairly clean devices and fields.
What are your thoughts on this coin? Reasonable buy or newbie blunder?
Comments
It would have to bee seen in-hand to determine it it has been cleaned or dipped. I don't trust the photo to make a call on that.
It looks to me to be AU53 obverse, AU55 reverse so far as wear goes. I would not accept it as an AU58.
Based only on the images provided, the coin looks to have been aggressively dipped, possibly in order to remove the surface crud that's not all gone on the reverse. AU58 seems generous.
An honest opinion, which is what you asked for, is what I will give.
I don't like it at all. It's been over-dipped and not just a little over-dipped, but a lot over-dipped from my interpretation of the images. I don' mind the chatter on Ms. Liberty and the assigned grade of AU58 might be fine as far as the wear pattern goes though I do think the coin looks more AU55 than AU58 to me, but that might be being a bit too picky. Regardless, the coin has been stripped. If you like the look of a stripped 184-year old coin (and many folks do like that look) then you got it. I think it has negative eye appeal.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
There are many nicer examples of this year with better surfaces and eye appeal. This coin you find will be hard to resell when the time comes. Without seeing in hand is guess both cleaned and dipped. Keep looking, an original skinned AU53-55 would be a better buy IMHO. By the way, i bought many coins that looked this way when i started before i got the right mentors.
For comparison sake, here is a PCGS graded 1838 CBH, AU58.....the closest to no toning they had.
The stars and the denticles are more distinct and relatively sharp, unlike your 58.
I love the 1838 Bustie.
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/83057535
And just for grins, this is the only 1838 CBH that I own, and I love her.
Got her at GC just like you did.
VF30
To be fair, we should keep in mind that not all die marriages for the Reeded Edge half dollar series have the same "striking" characteristics. I intentionally put "sticking" in quotes as they might all have been struck more or less the same, but visually not all appear with the same details. I haven't looked up the die marriage of the coin in the OP, but it may be one that does not come with sharply struck stars.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
There are eight examples of 1838 CBH's graded AU58 on CoinFacts and all show relatively sharp detail on the stars.
Go to this link.................... https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1838-50c/images/6177
Thank you all thus far!
It seems like my interpretation is fairly close with most of yours...overgraded and dipped. I was willing to purchase it despite these issues because I paid 53-55 money for it, which seems fair, and I can live with an unoriginal skin for a few years while I fill out my set and then re-address potential upgrades.
+1
I'm not certain I understand the logic of buying a coin for $800 or so with the idea that you don't really like it and will have to replace it in the future. You paid a lot more than AU53 money for the coin and ended up just around AU55/58 since there is considerable overlap in sales prices for these mid-range AU pieces. This is a common coin and you needn't rush to fill a hole only to have to replace it later.
By the way, it appears to be a GR-13 die marriage, which is likely the most common die marriage for the year. The book A Registry of Die Varieties of Reeded Edge Half Dollars 1836-1839 is a goldmine of information for the series, but there has only been one edition and I believe two print runs, which were both sold out nearly immediately. However, you are fortunate in that the two authors of the book are both PCGS forum members and both contribute to posts. Heck, at least one of them is polite, educated and helpful (Dick)!
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Wait and see it in hand, but I generally agree with the other posts. If you aren’t happy with it, I’d highly recommend selling it and recycling your funds into an example you are happy with. It’s the cost of tuition and I seem to pay it every year!
I do like it! I wouldn't have bought it otherwise. Just not as much as a coin I can buy for 2x or 3x the price.
In terms of price, I've been keeping my eye out on the BST, eBay, and several shows (large and small) but it's tough to find a great AU under $1000. @Herb_T had some a while ago but I missed out. Following are the recent sales of 53-58 CBH at GC. I understand that some are better dates or more appealing toning - which accounts for the price difference - but I don't see many AU coins selling for less than I paid for this. (Also, I live in CA and I saved $80 in sales tax on my other purchase because this purchase got my invoice over $1500 so it acted as a bit of a rebate)
Okay, I had misunderstood your post where you wrote that your interpretation was "overgraded and dipped" and thought that meant you really weren't enamored with the piece. If you like it, then you like it.
I would suggest your data analysis or collection might be honed a bit more. You are looking at coins sold at one venue (GC) and every coin on that list is a Capped Bust half dollar (CBH) except for your Reeded Edge half dollar (RE). Even though many sources lump these two together, many others (and many collectors) view them as separate series and collect them as separate entities. All you have to do is look at PCGS CoinFacts and it will show you all the auction data for any coin and in any grade you want and if you look at 1838 RE half dollars you will see that this piece did not sell cheaply.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Totally understood. I just wanted to make sure I understood why it looks like it looks and that my interpretation of it was consistent with reality. My opinion of that reality is of course my own:)
And I did look at more than just GC sources, just didn't want to start putting up rows of numbers from lots of different sources. I picked GC because they have the most prices in one place...but I looked at the PCGS price guide and the auction results, trying to weight them over time as the markets have obviously moved over the last couple of years. I also looked at the actual auction lots to see what sort of coins were selling for those prices. I agree, it did not sell cheaply for 53-55...but looking at the prices and the coins paid for those prices I do think it sold fairly for a 55 and very cheaply for a 58 (which we both agree it probably shouldn't be).
I very much appreciate your advice and guidance! I hope I'm not coming off as defensive because it is not my intent. I truly appreciate your (and everyone else's) time and wisdom.
Old silver coins that bright just look wrong, but I like toned gold so I may be the wrong person to render an opinion on that one.
@TomB> @Smudge said:
I like toned gold too! This was my other purchase last night:
You did ok; NGC may be a little less strict on Bust coinage but they are usually pretty accurate.
Like several have said, there a few things I don't like about yours, but everyone has different tastes and so as long as you like it, and accept that it is indeed a problem coin in a straight holder, all is good.
However, please do not look at all dates of CBH's together. Prices vary WIDELY by date, and even more so for specific Die Marriages. In fact, yours is more correctly referred to as a Reeded Edge Half Dollar, and should only be compared with other 1837 and 1838 examples, accordingly.
My 2c ...
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
It took rereading @TomB 's post after reading this one for that to sink in. It would have been good for me to have read up and known this prior to purchasing the coin
I probably look at the years a little more closely than I did as I was divining what I felt to be a good price and what my other options may have been for that price. (Although looking at what is currently available on eBay I'm still satisfied with my buy.)
The coin looks a little over-dipped, you have to wonder what the rest of the story is on that coin, looks like it was graded at NGC over 25 years ago based on the cert. number.
I sent a Seated half and a Bust half in for grading, both were heavily toned. One graded env. damage the other graded AU58, I asked the grading company to conserve the coins which they didn't do. After getting them back I waited a while then dipped them myself somewhat cautiously. One graded MS60 the other MS62 as they had never before been dipped and no dealer was interested in buying them from the guy I got them from as is.
This AU58 GR-8 I used to own does not have well defined stars.
Lance.
Beautiful coin, Lance.
I'm no CBH expert but have owned my share of them over the years (only a few Reeded Edge examples).
I mostly like the overall look of the coin. My only quibble is that for a white coin, I'd prefer to see a bit more luster. But it ain't bad.
OK, maybe it is a bit overdipped. But I don't hate it.
I hate it. AU-50 harshly cleaned.
Not a good look
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I would not return it.
Mainly because that image would keep me from ordering it.
Wait 40 years for it to tone in the holder
Just to be clear, this is a Reeded Edge Half, not a Capped Bust Half. The latter used the new steam press, and strikes are usually hammered for coins in higher grades, unlike the Capped Bust Halves.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Well, you are not entirely correct. In the PCGS Registry, they are called Capped Bust Half Dollar Reed Edge
She is still capped in the reeded edge series......ergo, it's a CBH w/ reeded edge.
Check CoinFacts....
You could always do a guarantee submission with NGC on the coin being overgraded/problem that shouldn't have gotten the ultimate AU grade.
I would return it. If you resent that coin, I have no doubt it would grade AU details which makes it worth VF/XF money at most
GC doesn't like returns, they permit a couple, that's it.
I don't resent it! I received the coin today (thanks @ianrussell for your always amazing service!) and it looks better in hand.
Totally understood that many here do not and will never like the look of this coin. But in hand, it has pretty good luster and is much less flat and dipped looking than the initial pictures. It is a bit unnaturally white for an almost 200yo coin but it looks nice to me.
EDIT: I don't know how to embed video but here is a short video: https://imgur.com/a/bryYKIZ
A coin @ricko would love along with yourself. Congratulations adding to your collection!
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
agreed, and that is how I list them.
Or: Capped Bust, reeded edge.
BHNC #203
Looks nice in your video.
Congrats!
I just wanted to chime in and say that I feel posts like this and the opinions shared by fellow members makes all of us better collectors or at least more informed. Thank you OP, those whom replied, and @TomB
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
I could not agree more. I definitely learned about both the series and the hobby/coins in general. I will be able to use this knowledge and some of others' collective tastes & experiences to be a more informed collector in the future.
Thanks for posting the video. The coin appears to have at least some remaining luster and not as dipped-out as I had originally thought.... based on the images. Hopefully, the surfaces are stabilized and it won't turn a dull grey in the holder in a few years... best of luck!
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