To Restore or not to restore - Chopmarked T$

lermish

I've been reading @Fairlaneman and @jbrew715 tribulations with the restoration/conservation service and second guessing myself. I crossed over the below 76-CC Trade Dollar from a NGC AU Details-Chopmarked holder into a PCGS XF Details - Env Damage.

My ultimate goal would be a straight grade. Obviously impossible to tell from pictures but maybe some here have experience with this. I really don't want to give PCGS more money and wait for another 2 months to get back another (but different!) Details holder. Thanks for any advice!

Cougar1978

What a totally ugly coin.

I hate chopmarked trade dollars / won’t buy them. How in the world could Somebody restore them? Sounds like SF.

airplanenut

I imagine that if they could get the dark off, it would leave a bright patch of fresh metal and look worse than it does now. For the range of what environmental damage can be, this looks more on the light side where it's just really dark toning, rather than, say, rough, eaten-away surfaces. It may not be ideal, but it doesn't scream unoriginal, where I think that the post-restoration result may do just that.

Broadstruck

Let Sleeping Dogs Lie instantly comes to mind seeing this.

Crypto

I know that coin, don’t do it. They will just over dip it. Even if you get a home run with the black which isn’t a sure thing XF45-AU50 coins never look quite right over dipped.

That has real skin, Submit it to NGC and take then XF details grade there, it will split the difference in value between a problem PCGS holder and a straight graded chopped holder

lermish

@Cougar1978 said:
What a totally ugly coin.

I hate chopmarked trade dollars / won’t buy them. How in the world could Somebody restore them? Sounds like SF.

Thank you for your invaluable input, greatly appreciated. What would this discussion have done without you?

lilolme

Here is the pcgs restoration do's and don'ts for spots. They do not address an environmentally damage coin. But how would they remove damage? The only hope I see in the below is the very last line. But again if the coin is already damaged....

Spots

Spots on coins can be the result of a variety of causes. Many spots can be removed, yet some cannot be removed without damaging the coin.
PCGS will not attempt to remove a spot unless it is determined that the spot significantly detracts from the coin's overall appearance or is active and will continue to grow.
PCGS will not attempt to restore a spotted coin if that in our opinion, a spot is so deep that removal would lower the coin's overall condition.
Older spots such as old spittle or old thumbprints often cannot be removed without stripping the coin's original surface and will not be attempted.
Newer contaminants such as recent fingerprints can be removed. Also, certain spots due to corrosive interactions can often be removed without impairing the surface.

FlyingAl

I think that coin is better left as it is.

BryceM

@lermish said:

@Cougar1978 said:
What a totally ugly coin.

I hate chopmarked trade dollars / won’t buy them. How in the world could Somebody restore them? Sounds like SF.

Thank you for your invaluable input, greatly appreciated. What would this discussion have done without you?

Well, you asked.

For the record, this coin has plenty of problems and not so many virtues. Saying it this way is perhaps more diplomatic, but the end result is basically the same. This coin is beyond what restoration can help.

291fifth

It is a problem coin that wants to cause you more problems by spending money on "restoration" which may or may not be possible/successful. Just leave it as it is.

coinkat

Chop marked coins are an acquired taste... sort of like coffee. Often the chop marks are seen with other problems and some collectors simply do not have the vision and are overwhelmed by negatives instead of appreciating the commerce exemplified by the coin itself. Based on the first image, I would not attempt any restoration period... that would simply further detract from what a coin like this often looks like. I like it for what it is as well as for what it is not.

lermish

@BryceM said:

@lermish said:

@Cougar1978 said:
What a totally ugly coin.

I hate chopmarked trade dollars / won’t buy them. How in the world could Somebody restore them? Sounds like SF.

Thank you for your invaluable input, greatly appreciated. What would this discussion have done without you?

Well, you asked.

For the record, this coin has plenty of problems and not so many virtues. Saying it this way is perhaps more diplomatic, but the end result is basically the same. This coin is beyond what restoration can help.

No, I didn't.

I asked for opinions on whether restoration might be a viable option for the coin. Not his opinion on how much he hates not just this coin in particular but also the entirety of my primary focus in collecting.

braddick

Not to go against the grain, yet as it is a coin, the owner is likely to "get rid of." Curated, it would have a chance of being presentable.
If it were anything other than a CC, I'd pass, yet as it is a desirable mint/coin, I'd have PCGS take a swing at it.

BryceM

Collecting chopmarked Trade dollars is a perfectly wonderful pursuit. However, if you're under the impression that there is something that could be done to get this coin into a straight-grade holder, you're going to end up frustrated. It's beyond help and it's not even close IMO.

"Environmental Damage" usually means something has corroded the coin so badly that original surfaces are gone. Kaput. No amount of restoration is going to bring back luster (or appropriate XF surface characteristics) under that black stuff.

NumisOxide

I think like anything else it's a gamble whether it would straight grade after "conservation". If it was my coin I would crack it out and try some MS70 on it. It may remove the mottled tone and lighten up the dark terminal toning. My second choice would be ez-zest dip. It would strip most of the toning off but that terminal black toning would turn an off colored lack luster gray. Then I would submit back to NGC and hope for a straight grade but 50/50 shot.

lkenefic

I'm on the fence over this piece and submission for restoration. It's a Carson City MM which is definitely a positive, but the environmental damage is pretty significant and of a nature that I dont think acetone is going to have much of an affect. Dipping coins like this is a real gamble... you may end up with lighter patches or a coin that looks flat and over dipped... the kiss of death for XF-AU coins. Someone suggested submitting to NGC which is not a bad idea and likely one of the less expensive options that won't further damage an already damaged coin... best of luck in whatever you decide.

airplanenut

@BryceM said:
Collecting chopmarked Trade dollars is a perfectly wonderful pursuit. However, if you're under the impression that there is something that could be done to get this coin into a straight-grade holder, you're going to end up frustrated. It's beyond help and it's not even close IMO.

"Environmental Damage" usually means something has corroded the coin so badly that original surfaces are gone. Kaput. No amount of restoration is going to bring back luster (or appropriate XF surface characteristics) under that black stuff.

And that's a totally reasonable (and helpful) reply. If you asked a question, I bet you'd be happy to get a reply like that. If instead the reply was that your coin is, broadly, a POS and, in fact, the person replying hates the entire series you collect, you'd probably find it less useful.

TomB

That coin appears to be a great example of a decision where you either buy it or you pass on it, but in no way do you enter into a relationship with it in the idea that you can change it. The coin is a money-pit if you decide to "conserve" it as you will be out postage, PCGS fees and might take a smack-down upon resale if you get returned to you a bright white eyesore. Environmental damage generally means that there is underlying surface damage that cannot be undone.

Enjoy it or sell it.

lermish

I so badly want to take the minority of recommendations and "fix" it...but trying to outsmart people with way more experience than me has already cost me money too many times.

I guess I'll just hang on to it for now and look to move it along to a new home at some point.

MasonG

@lermish said:
I guess I'll just hang on to it for now and look to move it along to a new home at some point.

Your best course of action. If you try to fix it, you'll probably turn a coin with environmental damage into a cleaned coin with environmental damage.

Weiss

I'd leave it as is.

On an only somewhat related note: When PCGS qualifies a "chop mark" trade dollar as "genuine", do they imply authenticity to the chops? Would they not slab a coin if they found the chops questionable, or does chop authenticity not come into the picture?

If they don't consider chopmark authenticity (and I'm not sure how they would), then adding modern chops to an authentic but environmentally damaged trade dollar would open some interesting grey areas vis a vis coin doctoring.

lermish

@Weiss said:
I'd leave it as is.

On an only somewhat related note: When PCGS qualifies a "chop mark" trade dollar as "genuine", do they imply authenticity to the chops? Would they not slab a coin if they found the chops questionable, or does chop authenticity not come into the picture?

If they don't consider chopmark authenticity (and I'm not sure how they would), then adding modern chops to an authentic but environmentally damaged trade dollar would open some interesting grey areas vis a vis coin doctoring.

There has been some interesting conversation regarding that. I don't __think __ that PCGS verifies chop marks nor do I think they (currently) could if they wanted to.

However, that doesn't really matter as chopmarked coins are worth less than non-chopmarked coins. PCGS verifies the authenticity of the coin itself. Presumably if someone put on a fresh, obviously fake chopmark they might grade the coin Genuine-Damaged.

I guess a dedicated coin doctor might be able to play around a bit but that's an awful lot of work for not much excess return in a fairly niche and small market. $200 for a non-chopped problem T$, bunch of work, grading fees (assuming it grades), auction fees, to sell for $400-800. No thanks

ChopmarkedTrades

Ditto on opting for no conservation. I don't think that there is an ideal scenario where this coin is cleaned up into a really appealing XF with the surface roughness, and right now it has some decent skin on it (though some problems to go along with it).

OGDan

@Cougar1978 said:
What a totally ugly coin.

I hate chopmarked trade dollars / won’t buy them. How in the world could Somebody restore them? Sounds like SF.

Sorry someone pissed in your coffee. Must have tasted horrible.

OGDan

I talked to a dealer recently who used to buy chopmarked trade dollars for melt by the bags in the 60's and 70's. He said that a lot of them were smuggled out of China at some point. Apparently they would line the bottom of the boats (under deck) with them, and they used some sort of black sticky substance to do that. I've seen a lot of these trade dollars with this sort of black crud on them. I wonder if that's why.

OGDan

@Weiss said:
I'd leave it as is.

On an only somewhat related note: When PCGS qualifies a "chop mark" trade dollar as "genuine", do they imply authenticity to the chops? Would they not slab a coin if they found the chops questionable, or does chop authenticity not come into the picture?

If they don't consider chopmark authenticity (and I'm not sure how they would), then adding modern chops to an authentic but environmentally damaged trade dollar would open some interesting grey areas vis a vis coin doctoring.

It would be fairly easy to tell if the chopmarks were added recently to a 150 year old coin. Bright and fresh metal showing in the new chops vs. aged skin of the coin. At least that's how I've thought about this question.

thebeav

I don't think that a straight grade will ever be possible with this coin. I'm in the 'leave-it-alone' camp.....

mbogoman

Leave it as is. Spending any more on it would most likely be spending good money after bad.

And a side note - two months is a pipedream as far as turnaround time right now. My recent Trade Dollar submission was received by our host on Mar 3 and I just received the coins back last Friday, July 29. Things are still REALLY SLOW...

jmski52

It is a problem coin that wants to cause you more problems by spending money on "restoration" which may or may not be possible/successful. Just leave it as it is.

Yeah, I have to agree. It can't be fixed.

telephoto1

I think I'm going to have to go against the overall consensus here. PCGS usually does a good job helping environmentally damaged pieces and IMO this one will have a much more pleasant look after having it done. Will it straight grade? Not sure. But it will look better and might just surprise some folks here. jmho

ricko

I would leave it as is and sell it.... Then buy one you like. @OriginalDan ... That black, sticky substance was tar.... used to seal joints on ships anyway. Cheers, RickO

Catbert

@lermish said:

@Cougar1978 said:
What a totally ugly coin.

I hate chopmarked trade dollars / won’t buy them. How in the world could Somebody restore them? Sounds like SF.

Thank you for your invaluable input, greatly appreciated. What would this discussion have done without you?

Well, we missed the usual pricing strategy and Houston bourse floor hit the road demeanor if you are a “tire kicker” plus occasional references to topless hangouts.

I’m with the leave it alone crowd for all the reasons referenced. I’d also weigh heavily the experience and perspective of trade dollar specialist @Crypto and @OriginalDan .

DDR

I like the obverse of that coin, some of the chops are kind of cool. But the reverse is an unattractive mess.

If your ultimate goal is to get it into a straight-grade holder, I would sell the coin and buy one in a straight-grade holder.

If you have time, and some money to play with on the coin, I would send it in to PCGS and see what happens.

I sent a really ugly, unattractively dark toned chopmarked TD into PCGS for restoration once, and it came back improved. Not perfect, but improved. After all was said and done, I sold it for a small profit.

DDR

As for Trade Dollars being shipped in tar, I'm not sure. I've heard that a number of times before but I have never seen anything contemporary or near contemporary that would indicate that was common practice.

OGDan

@DDR said:
As for Trade Dollars being shipped in tar, I'm not sure. I've heard that a number of times before but I have never seen anything contemporary or near contemporary that would indicate that was common practice.

@DDR I heard this recently during a phone conversation with a dealer out of Washington State. Unfortunately he doesn't do email, so if I can get him on the phone again I'll try to find out more. Could be just a story he was told while visiting Asia decades ago.

OAKSTAR

When I first saw this, I thought it was due to the chop marks.

Never mind, I'll go home and sit in the corner now! 😉