1921 and 1896 Morgan - Grad + Questions

spyglassdesign

I picked up a couple Morgans today on ebay that seem decent but as usual not quite as good as I had hoped. I haven't sent any in yet for grading, but wondering what your impressions are? They both are supposedly mechanical error coins (ie die cracks), so my question is, is it possible to get a grade on them with things like die cracks? What has been your experiences with such?

The 1921 is frosty in color, but still has the halo effect (I forget the term, where the light reflects across the coin and all the way around as you spin it), as does the 1896. The 1896 is very mirror like. On the 1896 the ear has a little bit more wear than I would have hoped but the reverse has very crisp leafs under the eagle, and the chest feathers and neck and head appear well defined from what I can tell.

What are your opinions? Decent pickups, or should I be even more discerning? I do plan to send one or both in (at leas the 1896), but was hoping to send both. I'm headed to the Vegas show Wednesday and am thinking about taking them with me.

These seem a little easier to evaluate from pictures than the $2.50 Indians I was trying They seem a little less risky too... At least now that I know what to look for in fakes to some degree.

Thanks in advance for the feedback!

AdamL

Die cracks aren't a problem. The marks on the cheek could be though.
Both are common dates, and I would say not worth getting professionally graded in that condition.

TomB

The 1896 looks like it could be mint state, but that rim ding on the reverse between the U and N of UNITED has me worried as well as the long vertical scratches down Ms. Liberty's face. To me it looks like it may come back as AU Details-Scratched. The 1921-D is nowhere near mint state, in my opinion, and has surface issues all over the obverse.

Die cracks are a normal part of the life of a die as it begins to age and fail. There may be certain coins with dramatic die cracks that are noted by the TPGs, like the Bearded Goddess of the CBH series, but in general a die crack is just a "thing" and is ignored by the TPGs.

You asked so I will give my opinion; I would be more discerning, but I know neither your goals nor your budget.

291fifth

The 1921-D is a base value common date circulated Morgan dollar. The 1896 is an MS62 or 63 common date Morgan dollar. In my opinion neither coin is worth slabbing. I don't see any die cracks on either.

Why would you want send in coins like that for slabbing?

spyglassdesign

@TomB said:
The 1896 looks like it could be mint state, but that rim ding on the reverse between the U and N of UNITED has me worried as well as the long vertical scratches down Ms. Liberty's face. To me it looks like it may come back as AU Details-Scratched. The 1921-D is nowhere near mint state, in my opinion, and has surface issues all over the obverse.

Die cracks are a normal part of the life of a die as it begins to age and fail. There may be certain coins with dramatic die cracks that are noted by the TPGs, like the Bearded Goddess of the CBH series, but in general a die crack is just a "thing" and is ignored by the TPGs.

You asked so I will give my opinion; I would be more discerning, but I know neither your goals nor your budget.

Well, the bottom line is trying to find raw ungraded gems that I can get graded to increase their salability at this point specifically.

I too am concerned about those scratches as well. They weren't obvious in the pictures before purchase

Thanks for the input!

spyglassdesign

@291fifth said:
The 1921-D is a base value common date circulated Morgan dollar. The 1896 is an MS62 or 63 common date Morgan dollar. In my opinion neither coin is worth slabbing. I don't see any die cracks on either.

Why would you want send in coins like that for slabbing?

I was hoping to find a gem or two in the rough to get graded primarily. And using cheaper coins to learn about Morgans to be more discerning in the future with without expending too much $.

291fifth

@spyglassdesign said:

@291fifth said:
The 1921-D is a base value common date circulated Morgan dollar. The 1896 is an MS62 or 63 common date Morgan dollar. In my opinion neither coin is worth slabbing. I don't see any die cracks on either.

Why would you want send in coins like that for slabbing?

I was hoping to find a gem or two in the rough to get graded primarily. And using cheaper coins to learn about Morgans to be more discerning in the future with without expending too much $.

No "gems" there. Sorry.

spyglassdesign

@291fifth said:

@spyglassdesign said:

@291fifth said:
The 1921-D is a base value common date circulated Morgan dollar. The 1896 is an MS62 or 63 common date Morgan dollar. In my opinion neither coin is worth slabbing. I don't see any die cracks on either.

Why would you want send in coins like that for slabbing?

I was hoping to find a gem or two in the rough to get graded primarily. And using cheaper coins to learn about Morgans to be more discerning in the future with without expending too much $.

No "gems" there. Sorry.

As they say, live and learn

P0CKETCHANGE

@spyglassdesign said:

@TomB said:
The 1896 looks like it could be mint state, but that rim ding on the reverse between the U and N of UNITED has me worried as well as the long vertical scratches down Ms. Liberty's face. To me it looks like it may come back as AU Details-Scratched. The 1921-D is nowhere near mint state, in my opinion, and has surface issues all over the obverse.

Die cracks are a normal part of the life of a die as it begins to age and fail. There may be certain coins with dramatic die cracks that are noted by the TPGs, like the Bearded Goddess of the CBH series, but in general a die crack is just a "thing" and is ignored by the TPGs.

You asked so I will give my opinion; I would be more discerning, but I know neither your goals nor your budget.

Well, the bottom line is trying to find raw ungraded gems that I can get graded to increase their salability at this point specifically.

Thanks for the input!

I mean this as constructively as possible: I would study grading long and hard before sinking any more money into that endeavor. Based on these purchases and your stated goal, there is a big knowledge gap to fill with education. I suggest learning the overall basics of grading first (there are some PCGS and other videos about it on YouTube), then focus on the series you are interested in and looking at Photograde and LOTS of coins on CoinFacts, etc.

spyglassdesign

@P0CKETCHANGE said:

@spyglassdesign said:

@TomB said:
The 1896 looks like it could be mint state, but that rim ding on the reverse between the U and N of UNITED has me worried as well as the long vertical scratches down Ms. Liberty's face. To me it looks like it may come back as AU Details-Scratched. The 1921-D is nowhere near mint state, in my opinion, and has surface issues all over the obverse.

Die cracks are a normal part of the life of a die as it begins to age and fail. There may be certain coins with dramatic die cracks that are noted by the TPGs, like the Bearded Goddess of the CBH series, but in general a die crack is just a "thing" and is ignored by the TPGs.

You asked so I will give my opinion; I would be more discerning, but I know neither your goals nor your budget.

Well, the bottom line is trying to find raw ungraded gems that I can get graded to increase their salability at this point specifically.

Thanks for the input!

I mean this as constructively as possible: I would study grading long and hard before sinking any more money into that endeavor. Based on these purchases and your stated goal, there is a big knowledge gap to fill with education. I suggest learning the overall basics of grading first (there are some PCGS and other videos about it on YouTube), then focus on the series you are interested in and looking at Photograde and LOTS of coins on CoinFacts, etc.

I do look at a lot of coinfacts pictures and study them a lot when looking at coins, however I haven't reviewed the the video you mention. I will do that. And yes the '21 was a lot worse than I was hoping. They say pictures are worth a thousand words, but I've realized just how little some pictures can convey

P0CKETCHANGE

@spyglassdesign said:

@P0CKETCHANGE said:

@spyglassdesign said:

@TomB said:
The 1896 looks like it could be mint state, but that rim ding on the reverse between the U and N of UNITED has me worried as well as the long vertical scratches down Ms. Liberty's face. To me it looks like it may come back as AU Details-Scratched. The 1921-D is nowhere near mint state, in my opinion, and has surface issues all over the obverse.

Die cracks are a normal part of the life of a die as it begins to age and fail. There may be certain coins with dramatic die cracks that are noted by the TPGs, like the Bearded Goddess of the CBH series, but in general a die crack is just a "thing" and is ignored by the TPGs.

You asked so I will give my opinion; I would be more discerning, but I know neither your goals nor your budget.

Well, the bottom line is trying to find raw ungraded gems that I can get graded to increase their salability at this point specifically.

Thanks for the input!

I mean this as constructively as possible: I would study grading long and hard before sinking any more money into that endeavor. Based on these purchases and your stated goal, there is a big knowledge gap to fill with education. I suggest learning the overall basics of grading first (there are some PCGS and other videos about it on YouTube), then focus on the series you are interested in and looking at Photograde and LOTS of coins on CoinFacts, etc.

I do look at a lot of coinfacts pictures and study them a lot when looking at coins, however I haven't reviewed the the video you mention. I will do that. And yes the '21 was a lot worse than I was hoping. They say pictures are worth a thousand words, but I've realized just how little some pictures can convey

Here are the links to the series…they start at beginner and get more advanced as they go. I found them very helpful when I got back into collecting a couple years ago.
Coin Grading 101
Coin Grading 102
Coin Grading 103

And yes, seller photos can be poor and in some cases intentionally deceiving. Interpreting listing photos is another skill. I’m not aware of any videos on this topic though.

lilolme

Yes watch the videos noted above.
PCGS has a photo grade page. (select the dollars and then Morgans for grade photos from PO 01 to MS 69)

https://www.pcgs.com/photograde

You appear to be mixing up term so hope this helps.

On the 1896 you mentioned wear on the ear. The coin looks to be Unc or near it. The ear won't have any notable wear if any. There is some strike softness in the hair over the ear but nothing that would hurt the grade.
I agree with your summation about the reverse (strike).
There is a video about strike and I believe it used a buffalo nickel.

Also you mentioned mirror like. It appears to have normal luster in the fields without any mirrors. Mirrors is a term used to describe prooflike (PL) or DMPL coins. Go to this page and then select the Designations and then Deep Mirror Prooflike and also Prooflike for a brief description.

https://www.pcgs.com/grades

On the 1921 the term halo is sometimes used to describe 'luster' around the periphery of a DMPL device. Here is a DMPL with quit a bit of halo around the eagle. Sometime it is just around the head or another area but probably most often none at all.

On the 1921 instead of halo I believe you were looking for luster and/or cartwheel. The luster is the 'beams' of light in the fields and the cartwheel is when the luster rotates around when you tilt the coin. This one show two good luster beams (from at least two lights). The 1921 has broken luster indicating circulation.

On the die cracks, that is where the die cracks and when the coin is struck you will see a raised rough line on the coin because the metal flowed into the crack. The die cracks start off small and then can progress further. Here is one with very visible raised lines (called die cracks) from a cracked die. (also below thread where I tracked the progression if interested)

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1076990/10c-1798-large-8-tracking-the-cracking#latest

FlyingAl

@spyglassdesign said:

@291fifth said:
The 1921-D is a base value common date circulated Morgan dollar. The 1896 is an MS62 or 63 common date Morgan dollar. In my opinion neither coin is worth slabbing. I don't see any die cracks on either.

Why would you want send in coins like that for slabbing?

I was hoping to find a gem or two in the rough to get graded primarily. And using cheaper coins to learn about Morgans to be more discerning in the future with without expending too much $.

To add to the above: it seems as though you are very new into the hobby and you have a lot to learn, luckily you seem very willing to take in what the forums have to offer. Trying to grade coins from images on EBay and then grading them for profit is very risky. People collect and grade for decades and still don't manage to consistently do what you are attempting to do. If they can grade like that, oftentimes they work for the graders because that amount of skill is rare and in very high demand. Looking at photo grade for a few hours and watching a few PCGS videos will not suffice. You would need to look at thousands, if not tens or hundreds of thousands of coins to grade at such a high level.

With that said, I wish you the best. Just slow down a bit and learn before diving so deep. Since you asked, I grade the first Morgan (1921-D) XF Details Cleaned.

I grade the 1896 UNC Details Damaged. Unfortunately, neither are worth grading. You would need a problem free MS example to warrant grading, and that is assuming you got a deal on the coins.

thefinn

Don’t waste your money. Neither dollar is uncirculated, or even a semi-key date.

ricko

@spyglassdesign ... The above advice is solid and important to study and build some experience. You seem willing and eager to learn, so follow up on the suggestions. You should also attend coin shows if possible. It will give you the chance to evaluate many coins 'in hand', as well as converse with dealers and other collectors. Good luck, Cheers, RickO

MarkKelley

I concur with ricko. There is no substitute for viewing coins in hand.

spyglassdesign

Thanks for all the feedback. I'll keep at it!

@ricko I actually rubbed shoulders with a lot of people at the show on Wednesday... it was very educational!