@DM23HOF said:
Heritage explained their decision making on the grade and company selected. Best to seek out good and correct information than shoot from the hip and make reckless, irresponsible comments on a message board.
For those who collect cards, and are all about cards, not loyalists to one TPG or another, this is simply a beautiful card and hating on it is a bad look.
Agreed 100%
To suggest that someone should not have a unique opinion or an original thought and share it, that someone is supposed to believe one thing that everyone else thinks and if they dont this is somehow wrong, to suggest this is how you are supposed to feel, to say not agreeing with everyone else is irresponsible, that is a really really bad look. I cant believe at this time in this country more than one person would be willing to go on the record with that stance.
I feel like I am aware of the same information everyone else is aware of here. Not a loyalist in any way. Just loyal to the idea of maximizing the value of any cards I own which in recent times has been with PSA depending on the fees charged. I'm not saying noone should ever choose SGC. Just thought if you feel you have close to the most valuable card on Earth, its a clear fact that PSA cards sell for more than any other grading company's card with the same grade. Without knowing the outcome/grade, that it would be a 9.5 which PSA does not use, I am just surprised you start with the company who gets you less on your ROI when the intention is to sell.
And I am not hating on the card. Just suggested I feel maybe there is a better than 12.5% chance PSA would not give it a numerical grade. Not like it's never happened. Its a possibility. If someone else does not feel that way fine. I accept we wont all agree. I think this is supposed to be a discussion board. If it is just a cheerleading session for a card, maybe we need to change title of the thread to Rah rah rah 52 Mantle SGC 9.5, if you dont think its the best thing you have ever seen, keep out.
The irony, though, is that some accuse others of applying the sentiment of that last paragraph to only PSA graded cards..I think the point Matty was trying to make (with which I agreed), is that this card is a stunning beauty no matter what grading company holders it, and that its hammer price is going to reflect that fact even in a market that has softened a bit from its Covid highs for many of the most valuable cards.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Babe Ruth, Shoeless Joe, Ty Cobb, and Mathewson cards don't seem to have their sky-high prices being driven by their living fans.
Mantle cards are not being driven right now by his living fans, who have had many decades to obtain one for their collections; the prices are being driven by kids from the 80s/90s now in their 40s/30s who grew up seeing the 1952 Topps card in Beckett guides and shows, remember its status and mystique, and now want one whether it is for collecting, investing, or a hybrid of both.
Every time I break out an SGC, send it to PSA, it comes back as trimmed, or a full lower grade. So I stopped doing that. I avoid SGC like Covid-19. (In old days we would say like the plague)
@DM23HOF said:
Babe Ruth, Shoeless Joe, Ty Cobb, and Mathewson cards don't seem to have their sky-high prices being driven by their living fans.
Mantle cards are not being driven right now by his living fans, who have had many decades to obtain one for their collections; the prices are being driven by kids from the 80s/90s now in their 40s/30s who grew up seeing the 1952 Topps card in Beckett guides and shows, remember its status and mystique, and now want one whether it is for collecting, investing, or a hybrid of both.
Home prices are much higher now than in 1950 when those guys died.
@Goldenage said:
1951WP just listed his Malibu home for sale.
OT- What did Rosen die of ?
How does this card get delivered?
That was a secret! But since the secret is out, yes, I am offering my dream home for sale. It’s a once in a lifetime card, after all. Beautiful house, Malibu address, asking $25 million…
I agree that this card is wildly overrated. So is the player. To each his/her own. That said, the '52 Mantle is a majestic piece of art. And this example is incredible. Collect what you like.
I’ve spoken with a someone at HA about their recent trend of having more cards slabbed in non-PSA holders and I received several reasons why it seems that more of their new submissions have been going to non-PSA TPGs during the past 12-18 months:
1) Generally HA has been pretty frustrated with most of the TPGs in recent years, but since PSA had the lion’s share of the business more of that frustration went PSA’s way than the other TPGs.
2) The recent introductions and adoptions of more technology in the grading process is leveling the playing field by removing a lot of the human subjectivity and opinion from all TPGs results. There is a narrowing being seen in the price realized gap differentials for the same card and grade in different TPG slabs
3) The run-up we’ve seen during Covid-19 has increased demand enough that in order to give timely service to their consignors HA is steering more submissions to TPGs that can meet the turnaround times that HA requires.
4) PSA specifically has been a lot harder to work with during the past 2-3 years. The success rates of HA submissions and reviews that were reviewed by HA’s own staff members who formerly were graders have dropped significantly without any explanation from what they are used to receiving. Also, PSA’s submission freeze a while back was a serious self-inflicted wound that forced HA, and others, to look elsewhere and they found results and service levels that weren’t bad.
@FirstBeard said:
I agree that this card is wildly overrated. So is the player. To each his/her own. That said, the '52 Mantle is a majestic piece of art. And this example is incredible. Collect what you like.
How do you figure?
By any measure and/or metric, Mickey Mantle is easily one of the greatest baseball players of all time.
I don’t think it’s fair to call a top 10 everyday player all time overrated because he’s often listed top 5 when you feel maybe somewhere 6-10 is more accurate. I’m a huge baseball and Yankees fan who happily admits that there are plenty of guys - including HOF players - who were and are overrated because they were Yankees. Mickey Mantle is not one of those guys. More RBI opportunities and runs producers around him make for better numbers but he hit those 536 HR on his own, from both sides of the plate, while batting nearly .300 over 18 seasons.
This generic list is career War on baseball-reference.com. Note that it is each players single season WARs added up and the placement of guys like Roberto Clemente, Eddie Matthews, Lou Gehrig, Ted Williams and Mantle is somewhat related to their total of seasons played being the lowest among those players listed. A per season average WAR list of the same players would assuredly have those players shining a bit brighter as result…
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
Card values are what they are for various reasons. Personally I would much rather have the ‘51 Mantle and the ‘52 Mathews. Both rookie cards - the Mathews with half as many printed as the Mantle. That doesn’t change that this is the baseball card with the highest demand and will continue to be so. Basing that on price vs. scarcity. If I won the billion dollar lottery would definitely get one at some point but would personally appreciate some of my other less valuable cards more. I am sure that would be different were I a Yankee fan and there are a lot of Yankee fans.
@70ToppsFanatic said:
I’ve spoken with a someone at HA about their recent trend of having more cards slabbed in non-PSA holders and I received several reasons why it seems that more of their new submissions have been going to non-PSA TPGs during the past 12-18 months:
1) Generally HA has been pretty frustrated with most of the TPGs in recent years, but since PSA had the lion’s share of the business more of that frustration went PSA’s way than the other TPGs.
2) The recent introductions and adoptions of more technology in the grading process is leveling the playing field by removing a lot of the human subjectivity and opinion from all TPGs results. There is a narrowing being seen in the price realized gap differentials for the same card and grade in different TPG slabs
3) The run-up we’ve seen during Covid-19 has increased demand enough that in order to give timely service to their consignors HA is steering more submissions to TPGs that can meet the turnaround times that HA requires.
4) PSA specifically has been a lot harder to work with during the past 2-3 years. The success rates of HA submissions and reviews that were reviewed by HA’s own staff members who formerly were graders have dropped significantly without any explanation from what they are used to receiving. Also, PSA’s submission freeze a while back was a serious self-inflicted wound that forced HA, and others, to look elsewhere and they found results and service levels that weren’t bad.
It’s a while new ballgame out there.
Best read in a very long while. Thank you 70Topps for posting. #4 is what is just bizarre to me. It does feel like the entire process "ENTIRE" process with PSA has changed. It certainly feels like receiving solid grades on vintage cards is a thing of the past. While some grades are ok, many are wildly/HARSHLY graded....especially the big time stars. Some cards are severely under-graded. Why everything has changed, I have no idea why. I have spoken to tons of collectors and dealers and many feel the same way. This is what it feels like. PSA has gained 20 new submitters; but have also completely made angry 15 of the old ones who submitted for the past 25 years and they are done submitting. Just doesn't feel right.
@Goldenage said:
WAR is silly, and Mantles card prices are inflated for sure.
Ruth and Williams have the best ops+ all time.
Mantle was great, but his card prices above Williams is the NY / World Series factor.
If I’m a Yankee fan I buy Ruth before Mantle, but both if I’m rich.
I don’t care for WAR, either, but it’s everybody’s go-to these days so I often start there to save time.
I don’t agree about the NY/WS factor being much of a factor. Ted Williams and Willie Mays, for reasons they’re entitled to, had always come across as surly, unapproachable men off the field. Mickey Mantle may have been the second most affable player of all time behind Babe Ruth.
And anyone who’s been around the hobby over thirty years knows that Mickey Mantle helped the baseball card industry tremendously from the late 70s to early 90s, driving up attendance and popularity (and prices) for the shows at which he appeared and the grown men that lined up to seek his signature or handshake also brought their young sons with them and bought those kids some 80s Topps packs or maybe a nice vintage star card and explained who these guys on the cardboard are and why people still care. Those same kids who, coincidentally or maybe not, are the grown adult people who are now carrying this hobby forward because even as the number of people who actually saw him play dwindles, his popularity only continues to soar.
I would suggest those that don’t understand Mickey maybe just don’t know all that much about him. Mickey Mantle is a modern day myth, a Greek tragedy played out on a baseball field and pRoy Hobbs, incarnate. He’s a guy who clearly accomplished an incredible amount yet also clearly left a lot on the table, too. It’s crazy to think a guy who made the HOF first ballot, won a triple crown, snagged 3 MVPs, hit 18 WS HR and retired a living legend that was 3rd all time in HR UPON SAID RETIREMENT could be considered an underachiever. And yet he easily deserves that tag since he was a severe alcoholic from a tender age and eventually his lifestyle off the field began to impact his performance on it. Blessed with God like ability on the field, he was haunted by death and the devil off of it. He drank to chase the fear and it ultimately killed him.
And, yet, in a final act of heroism, he admitted all his many failings for all the world to see as a 65 year old dying man on your television screen. The fair haired country boy from Oklahoma with the blazing speed, barrel chest and forearms by Popeye, now weak and withered from years of alcohol abuse and months of chemotherapy, sat there and humbly and honestly asked the generation of boys who’d idolized him to now recognize the errors of his ways, learn from his mistakes and teach their children to choose better role models than men like him.
Mickey Charles Mantle may have started a baseball player but somewhere along the way he became a tragic hero and, ultimately, an icon.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
@bruin805 said:
There's no rule that says the values of the card have to be proportional to how good the player was.
Excellent statement and very accurate. Sports cards are a combination of a variety of things - stats, ability, location of where they play, winner or loser on and off the field, media image, and intangibles. Look at the guys who move the needle and they vary but one thing that most of them have is they win and they shine in the big moments. Mantle, Jordan, Ruth, Brady, Gretzky… all had amazing stats but they also have lots of rings and championships to with them.
Joe Namath and Terry Bradshaw’s lifetime stats were average but a super bowl winning QB and being flamboyant drives $$. Mantle is the king when it comes to hobby pricing, and his career numbers are good but the numbers Mays, Aaron, Williams put up are much better; however, when you look at his 7 WS rings, record 18 WS home runs, his speed, power, being from the Midwest but playing in NYC, looks… he had it all. If he had played in a place like Cincy and won 1 WS would he have as revered?
Modern version is Nolan Ryan. Just like Mantle he had power and more than anyone before him and arguably after him. Record number of K’s, a WS win, but also record number of walks, no Cy Young awards… Look at every year outside of the top rookie who has the most expensive card in each set just like Mantle. People spend money on their heroes and while it might not make sense follow the $$ usually never fails.
@bruin805 said:
There's no rule that says the values of the card have to be proportional to how good the player was.
Excellent statement and very accurate. Sports cards are a combination of a variety of things - stats, ability, location of where they play, winner or loser on and off the field, media image, and intangibles. Look at the guys who move the needle and they vary but one thing that most of them have is they win and they shine in the big moments. Mantle, Jordan, Ruth, Brady, Gretzky… all had amazing stats but they also have lots of rings and championships to with them.
Joe Namath and Terry Bradshaw’s lifetime stats were average but a super bowl winning QB and being flamboyant drives $$. Mantle is the king when it comes to hobby pricing, and his career numbers are good but the numbers Mays, Aaron, Williams put up are much better; however, when you look at his 7 WS rings, record 18 WS home runs, his speed, power, being from the Midwest but playing in NYC, looks… he had it all. If he had played in a place like Cincy and won 1 WS would he have as revered?
Modern version is Nolan Ryan. Just like Mantle he had power and more than anyone before him and arguably after him. Record number of K’s, a WS win, but also record number of walks, no Cy Young awards… Look at every year outside of the top rookie who has the most expensive card in each set just like Mantle. People spend money on their heroes and while it might not make sense follow the $$ usually never fails.
It's kind of crazy that people still don't get it.
As a kid watching baseball in the 70's Reggie Jackson was the Megastar not just because he was a great player but because he shined in the Playoffs and especially in the World Series. It worries me when I collect modern players who haven't produced in the Playoffs and World Series. Will the Trout cards continue to increase in value for the next 30 years if he never plays well in the Playoffs and makes a deep run?
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
As a kid watching baseball in the 70's Reggie Jackson was the Megastar not just because he was a great player but because he shined in the Playoffs and especially in the World Series. It worries me when I collect modern players who haven't produced in the Playoffs and World Series. Will the Trout cards continue to increase in value for the next 30 years if he never plays well in the Playoffs and makes a deep run?
So, basically he'd be Dale Murphy or Rod Carew? They seem to keep their value pretty well. I think he'd still have value but it won't be stratospheric. At least Ryan has all the records behind him, but I don't see Trout doing that.
I don’t agree about the NY/WS factor being much of a factor.
I wouldn’t expect current values being achieved if Mantle had played his entire career in Cincinnati.
Hmmm. You could be right.
But Ted Kluszewski is there already, add Gus Bell in ‘53, Frank Robinson arrives in ‘56, Pete Rose in ‘63…
…so maybe the Big Red Machine revs it’s engines much earlier with Mickey Mantle patrolling center. Two triple crown caliber players starting in 1956 - Robinson and mantle - would have made the middle of that Reds lineup a force!
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
I don’t agree about the NY/WS factor being much of a factor.
I wouldn’t expect current values being achieved if Mantle had played his entire career in Cincinnati.
Hmmm. You could be right.
But Ted Kluszewski is there already, add Gus Bell in ‘53, Frank Robinson arrives in ‘56, Pete Rose in ‘63…
…so maybe the Big Red Machine revs it’s engines much earlier with Mickey Mantle patrolling center. Two triple crown caliber players starting in 1956 - Robinson and mantle - would have made the middle of that Reds lineup a force!
Frank Robinson is a great comparison. He's one of the greatest players of all time with the stats to back it up, but doesn't get nearly the respect he deserves. His cards are severely under valued too because of it. Put that guy in NYC, St Louis or on the Dodgers and his card is one of the most valuable around.
I don’t agree about the NY/WS factor being much of a factor.
I wouldn’t expect current values being achieved if Mantle had played his entire career in Cincinnati.
Hmmm. You could be right.
But Ted Kluszewski is there already, add Gus Bell in ‘53, Frank Robinson arrives in ‘56, Pete Rose in ‘63…
…so maybe the Big Red Machine revs it’s engines much earlier with Mickey Mantle patrolling center. Two triple crown caliber players starting in 1956 - Robinson and mantle - would have made the middle of that Reds lineup a force!
Frank Robinson is a great comparison. He's one of the greatest players of all time with the stats to back it up, but doesn't get nearly the respect he deserves. His cards are severely under valued too because of it. Put that guy in NYC, St Louis or on the Dodgers and his card is one of the most valuable around.
And Mantle had Berra. And many other solid Yankees. But Mickey was the type to shift the balance; maybe those Reds teams go after pennants a little harder with that one-two punch. Some of it comes down to ifs and buts. Then there is the whole impact that race has on cards - Aaron, Mays and Robinson pale in comparison to the lily white kid from Oklahoma.
I just look at it like this; Mike Trout is a similarly skilled player to Mantle toiling away in Los Angeles. Yet he’s still the games biggest star - love him or hate him.
That level and kind of talent plays anywhere…
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
I'm not a card guy but I have a special interest in this particular card. More on that later. For now, just a question. If the 75 cards in the original find were removed from their holders and laid on a table, how difficult would it be to pick this one out of the group?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Frank Robinson is a great comparison. He's one of the greatest players of all time with the stats to back it up, but doesn't get nearly the respect he deserves. His cards are severely under valued too because of it. Put that guy in NYC, St Louis or on the Dodgers and his card is one of the most valuable around.
Agree on Frank Robinson completely - have always wondered if playing on two teams in a one team era hurts his value and popularity. I don’t agree that Cardinals would help much as I think Musial is kind of undervalued. Look at what his ‘’59 to ‘62 go for compared to the other greats.
@Chargers49ersLakers said:
Every time I break out an SGC, send it to PSA, it comes back as trimmed, or a full lower grade. So I stopped doing that. I avoid SGC like Covid-19. (In old days we would say like the plague)
Having a card marked trimmed or the dreaded "minsizerq" at PSA is the virtual equivalent of someone quad vaxxed saying they had a breakthrough case of "the plague", because it happens so damn often.
-CW, thanks for posting that info about the right boarder. I had no idea. Very cool.
-Frank Robinson is very underrated, but as we all know stats are but one factor in determining popularity of a player and their card values.
-MrEureka, of course I have no way to verify this, but I suspect if you were to lay out the 70 or so cards of the Rosen find the odds of being able to select this particular one as "the finest" would not be great. I'd bet there would be a handful (maybe more?) that would catch your eye just as easy as this one.
-This card has already surpassed the $6.6M that the SGC 3 Wagner sold for a couple years ago. It will create massive positive news for our hobby, and the glow will extend to other Mantles, Vintage and the hobby as a whole. It's no secret our economy is not doing so well right now, folks reading about a baseball card selling for $15 million or whatever the number ends up being will only help solidify the notion that sports cards (esp. Mantle) are a great place to invest.
-I did not win the mega millions so unfortunately I will not be bidding on this card
@Goldenage said:
WAR is silly, and Mantles card prices are inflated for sure.
Ruth and Williams have the best ops+ all time.
Mantle was great, but his card prices above Williams is the NY / World Series factor.
If I’m a Yankee fan I buy Ruth before Mantle, but both if I’m rich.
Ha! This is funny. "WAR is silly and the number 2 and number 11 WAR player are better than the number 16 player just above."
WAR isn't perfect, but it works far better than any other single stat for determining which player is better. If you seriously argue for OPS+, I'll just suggest that Ozzie Smith (87) is a far better player than Dave Kingman (115). WAR lacks nuance and probably doesn't adequately evaluate fielding, but it does a much better job than almost any other stat. If you want to use one number to determine whether, say, Andy Pettitte, Omar Vizquel, or Todd Helton is most worthy of the HoF, there really is no other choice.
Can we please stop using Cincinnati as an example! It's not like they are the worst team in baseball or the city stinks.
So there was some thought given, and it wasn’t to pick on Cincinnati, but rather to point out that there is, in my opinion, most certainly a NY premium.
In 1951, there were only 16 major league teams. 11 of those teams were from only 5 cities: NY (Yanks, Giants, Dodgers), Boston (Sox, Braves), Philadelphia (Phillies, As) Chicago (Sox, Cubs) and St Louis (Cards, Browns). Also exclude the Senators so as to keep a constant locale during the entirety of Mantles career.
Which leaves four “small” market teams he could have played his entire career for: Pittsburg, Cincinnati, Detroit and Cleveland.
I guess I could have picked any of these but for the reasons others have stated, I like Cincinnati as the example. You’re right, they were not the worst team in baseball, which is kinda the point. Frank Robinson cards are, IMO, way undervalued compared to Mantle. Now you could say part of that is that Frank changed teams in his prime, and thus split the loyalty. And other reasons. But I just can’t believe a Mantle rookie would be the icon of the hobby if he played anywhere other than NY, and certainly not if it had been Cinncy. Or Pitt. No offense.
Can we please stop using Cincinnati as an example! It's not like they are the worst team in baseball or the city stinks.
So there was some thought given, and it wasn’t to pick on Cincinnati, but rather to point out that there is, in my opinion, most certainly a NY premium.
In 1951, there were only 16 major league teams. 11 of those teams were from only 5 cities: NY (Yanks, Giants, Dodgers), Boston (Sox, Braves), Philadelphia (Phillies, As) Chicago (Sox, Cubs) and St Louis (Cards, Browns). Also exclude the Senators so as to keep a constant locale during the entirety of Mantles career.
Which leaves four “small” market teams he could have played his entire career for: Pittsburg, Cincinnati, Detroit and Cleveland.
I guess I could have picked any of these but for the reasons others have stated, I like Cincinnati as the example. You’re right, they were not the worst team in baseball, which is kinda the point. Frank Robinson cards are, IMO, way undervalued compared to Mantle. Now you could say part of that is that Frank changed teams in his prime, and thus split the loyalty. And other reasons. But I just can’t believe a Mantle rookie would be the icon of the hobby if he played anywhere other than NY, and certainly not if it had been Cinncy. Or Pitt. No offense.
Thanks Green! I totally get it but I think players like Mickey and Reggie having huge World Series moments and their teams winning are equally important. I love the TBS Braves from the 90's but they just didn't produce like expected.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
For the sake of the thread readers and as a point of comparison, this is the card that is currently considered the king - in it’s original PSA holder - and it is from the permanent wing of the Fogel collection.
What a card…
I don't suppose it's the first ever 1952 Topps Mantle to get a PSA 10? I remember an article in a mid 90s Beckett (back when grading/slabbing was in its infancy) about a couple who sent in Mickey's REAL rookie card (1951 Bowman) and it got the first ever PSA 10 of that card.
@erikthredd said:
Came across this Mantle in my Instagram suggestions and thought to share it here. That centering is gorgeous.
I saw it on IG as well and was able to strike a deal to acquire it. Broke the record for a 1 but my research indicates that there are only about 20 Mantles centered that well in all grades. So hadda have it.
Comments
The irony, though, is that some accuse others of applying the sentiment of that last paragraph to only PSA graded cards..I think the point Matty was trying to make (with which I agreed), is that this card is a stunning beauty no matter what grading company holders it, and that its hammer price is going to reflect that fact even in a market that has softened a bit from its Covid highs for many of the most valuable cards.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
The kids are right. Sell now while Mantle fans are still alive.
Babe Ruth, Shoeless Joe, Ty Cobb, and Mathewson cards don't seem to have their sky-high prices being driven by their living fans.
Mantle cards are not being driven right now by his living fans, who have had many decades to obtain one for their collections; the prices are being driven by kids from the 80s/90s now in their 40s/30s who grew up seeing the 1952 Topps card in Beckett guides and shows, remember its status and mystique, and now want one whether it is for collecting, investing, or a hybrid of both.
Every time I break out an SGC, send it to PSA, it comes back as trimmed, or a full lower grade. So I stopped doing that. I avoid SGC like Covid-19. (In old days we would say like the plague)
Home prices are much higher now than in 1950 when those guys died.
My parents 18k house in 1965 was sold for 450k recently.
I’ll trade you that for this !!!
https://www.point2homes.com/US/Home-For-Sale/CA/Malibu/La-Costa/3900-VILLA-COSTERA/116188986.html
I agree that this card is wildly overrated. So is the player. To each his/her own. That said, the '52 Mantle is a majestic piece of art. And this example is incredible. Collect what you like.
That card is actually no big deal.
I’ve spoken with a someone at HA about their recent trend of having more cards slabbed in non-PSA holders and I received several reasons why it seems that more of their new submissions have been going to non-PSA TPGs during the past 12-18 months:
1) Generally HA has been pretty frustrated with most of the TPGs in recent years, but since PSA had the lion’s share of the business more of that frustration went PSA’s way than the other TPGs.
2) The recent introductions and adoptions of more technology in the grading process is leveling the playing field by removing a lot of the human subjectivity and opinion from all TPGs results. There is a narrowing being seen in the price realized gap differentials for the same card and grade in different TPG slabs
3) The run-up we’ve seen during Covid-19 has increased demand enough that in order to give timely service to their consignors HA is steering more submissions to TPGs that can meet the turnaround times that HA requires.
4) PSA specifically has been a lot harder to work with during the past 2-3 years. The success rates of HA submissions and reviews that were reviewed by HA’s own staff members who formerly were graders have dropped significantly without any explanation from what they are used to receiving. Also, PSA’s submission freeze a while back was a serious self-inflicted wound that forced HA, and others, to look elsewhere and they found results and service levels that weren’t bad.
It’s a while new ballgame out there.
Dave
How do you figure?
By any measure and/or metric, Mickey Mantle is easily one of the greatest baseball players of all time.
I don’t think it’s fair to call a top 10 everyday player all time overrated because he’s often listed top 5 when you feel maybe somewhere 6-10 is more accurate. I’m a huge baseball and Yankees fan who happily admits that there are plenty of guys - including HOF players - who were and are overrated because they were Yankees. Mickey Mantle is not one of those guys. More RBI opportunities and runs producers around him make for better numbers but he hit those 536 HR on his own, from both sides of the plate, while batting nearly .300 over 18 seasons.
This generic list is career War on baseball-reference.com. Note that it is each players single season WARs added up and the placement of guys like Roberto Clemente, Eddie Matthews, Lou Gehrig, Ted Williams and Mantle is somewhat related to their total of seasons played being the lowest among those players listed. A per season average WAR list of the same players would assuredly have those players shining a bit brighter as result…
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
WAR is silly, and Mantles card prices are inflated for sure.
Ruth and Williams have the best ops+ all time.
Mantle was great, but his card prices above Williams is the NY / World Series factor.
If I’m a Yankee fan I buy Ruth before Mantle, but both if I’m rich.
For me uncle jimmy’s signed Ruth’s are worth much more than this Mantle.
Card values are what they are for various reasons. Personally I would much rather have the ‘51 Mantle and the ‘52 Mathews. Both rookie cards - the Mathews with half as many printed as the Mantle. That doesn’t change that this is the baseball card with the highest demand and will continue to be so. Basing that on price vs. scarcity. If I won the billion dollar lottery would definitely get one at some point but would personally appreciate some of my other less valuable cards more. I am sure that would be different were I a Yankee fan and there are a lot of Yankee fans.
I have personally communicated this directly to PSA a couple times in the past few months and they say they’ll make sure the right folks hear it.
Then…. Crickets.
They don’t seem to care at all and that seems like a very odd business decision. What do I know.
Best read in a very long while. Thank you 70Topps for posting. #4 is what is just bizarre to me. It does feel like the entire process "ENTIRE" process with PSA has changed. It certainly feels like receiving solid grades on vintage cards is a thing of the past. While some grades are ok, many are wildly/HARSHLY graded....especially the big time stars. Some cards are severely under-graded. Why everything has changed, I have no idea why. I have spoken to tons of collectors and dealers and many feel the same way. This is what it feels like. PSA has gained 20 new submitters; but have also completely made angry 15 of the old ones who submitted for the past 25 years and they are done submitting. Just doesn't feel right.
I don’t care for WAR, either, but it’s everybody’s go-to these days so I often start there to save time.
I don’t agree about the NY/WS factor being much of a factor. Ted Williams and Willie Mays, for reasons they’re entitled to, had always come across as surly, unapproachable men off the field. Mickey Mantle may have been the second most affable player of all time behind Babe Ruth.
And anyone who’s been around the hobby over thirty years knows that Mickey Mantle helped the baseball card industry tremendously from the late 70s to early 90s, driving up attendance and popularity (and prices) for the shows at which he appeared and the grown men that lined up to seek his signature or handshake also brought their young sons with them and bought those kids some 80s Topps packs or maybe a nice vintage star card and explained who these guys on the cardboard are and why people still care. Those same kids who, coincidentally or maybe not, are the grown adult people who are now carrying this hobby forward because even as the number of people who actually saw him play dwindles, his popularity only continues to soar.
I would suggest those that don’t understand Mickey maybe just don’t know all that much about him. Mickey Mantle is a modern day myth, a Greek tragedy played out on a baseball field and pRoy Hobbs, incarnate. He’s a guy who clearly accomplished an incredible amount yet also clearly left a lot on the table, too. It’s crazy to think a guy who made the HOF first ballot, won a triple crown, snagged 3 MVPs, hit 18 WS HR and retired a living legend that was 3rd all time in HR UPON SAID RETIREMENT could be considered an underachiever. And yet he easily deserves that tag since he was a severe alcoholic from a tender age and eventually his lifestyle off the field began to impact his performance on it. Blessed with God like ability on the field, he was haunted by death and the devil off of it. He drank to chase the fear and it ultimately killed him.
And, yet, in a final act of heroism, he admitted all his many failings for all the world to see as a 65 year old dying man on your television screen. The fair haired country boy from Oklahoma with the blazing speed, barrel chest and forearms by Popeye, now weak and withered from years of alcohol abuse and months of chemotherapy, sat there and humbly and honestly asked the generation of boys who’d idolized him to now recognize the errors of his ways, learn from his mistakes and teach their children to choose better role models than men like him.
Mickey Charles Mantle may have started a baseball player but somewhere along the way he became a tragic hero and, ultimately, an icon.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
There's no rule that says the values of the card have to be proportional to how good the player was.
Well writen, 1951
Amazing card! Thanks for the link.
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Excellent statement and very accurate. Sports cards are a combination of a variety of things - stats, ability, location of where they play, winner or loser on and off the field, media image, and intangibles. Look at the guys who move the needle and they vary but one thing that most of them have is they win and they shine in the big moments. Mantle, Jordan, Ruth, Brady, Gretzky… all had amazing stats but they also have lots of rings and championships to with them.
Joe Namath and Terry Bradshaw’s lifetime stats were average but a super bowl winning QB and being flamboyant drives $$. Mantle is the king when it comes to hobby pricing, and his career numbers are good but the numbers Mays, Aaron, Williams put up are much better; however, when you look at his 7 WS rings, record 18 WS home runs, his speed, power, being from the Midwest but playing in NYC, looks… he had it all. If he had played in a place like Cincy and won 1 WS would he have as revered?
Modern version is Nolan Ryan. Just like Mantle he had power and more than anyone before him and arguably after him. Record number of K’s, a WS win, but also record number of walks, no Cy Young awards… Look at every year outside of the top rookie who has the most expensive card in each set just like Mantle. People spend money on their heroes and while it might not make sense follow the $$ usually never fails.
It's kind of crazy that people still don't get it.
As a kid watching baseball in the 70's Reggie Jackson was the Megastar not just because he was a great player but because he shined in the Playoffs and especially in the World Series. It worries me when I collect modern players who haven't produced in the Playoffs and World Series. Will the Trout cards continue to increase in value for the next 30 years if he never plays well in the Playoffs and makes a deep run?
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So, basically he'd be Dale Murphy or Rod Carew? They seem to keep their value pretty well. I think he'd still have value but it won't be stratospheric. At least Ryan has all the records behind him, but I don't see Trout doing that.
I wouldn’t expect current values being achieved if Mantle had played his entire career in Cincinnati.
Hmmm. You could be right.
But Ted Kluszewski is there already, add Gus Bell in ‘53, Frank Robinson arrives in ‘56, Pete Rose in ‘63…
…so maybe the Big Red Machine revs it’s engines much earlier with Mickey Mantle patrolling center. Two triple crown caliber players starting in 1956 - Robinson and mantle - would have made the middle of that Reds lineup a force!
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
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Frank Robinson is a great comparison. He's one of the greatest players of all time with the stats to back it up, but doesn't get nearly the respect he deserves. His cards are severely under valued too because of it. Put that guy in NYC, St Louis or on the Dodgers and his card is one of the most valuable around.
And Mantle had Berra. And many other solid Yankees. But Mickey was the type to shift the balance; maybe those Reds teams go after pennants a little harder with that one-two punch. Some of it comes down to ifs and buts. Then there is the whole impact that race has on cards - Aaron, Mays and Robinson pale in comparison to the lily white kid from Oklahoma.
I just look at it like this; Mike Trout is a similarly skilled player to Mantle toiling away in Los Angeles. Yet he’s still the games biggest star - love him or hate him.
That level and kind of talent plays anywhere…
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
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I'm not a card guy but I have a special interest in this particular card. More on that later. For now, just a question. If the 75 cards in the original find were removed from their holders and laid on a table, how difficult would it be to pick this one out of the group?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
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Agree on Frank Robinson completely - have always wondered if playing on two teams in a one team era hurts his value and popularity. I don’t agree that Cardinals would help much as I think Musial is kind of undervalued. Look at what his ‘’59 to ‘62 go for compared to the other greats.
Having a card marked trimmed or the dreaded "minsizerq" at PSA is the virtual equivalent of someone quad vaxxed saying they had a breakthrough case of "the plague", because it happens so damn often.
-ClownShowWorld
-UPisDOWN
A few thoughts:
-CW, thanks for posting that info about the right boarder. I had no idea. Very cool.
-Frank Robinson is very underrated, but as we all know stats are but one factor in determining popularity of a player and their card values.
-MrEureka, of course I have no way to verify this, but I suspect if you were to lay out the 70 or so cards of the Rosen find the odds of being able to select this particular one as "the finest" would not be great. I'd bet there would be a handful (maybe more?) that would catch your eye just as easy as this one.
-This card has already surpassed the $6.6M that the SGC 3 Wagner sold for a couple years ago. It will create massive positive news for our hobby, and the glow will extend to other Mantles, Vintage and the hobby as a whole. It's no secret our economy is not doing so well right now, folks reading about a baseball card selling for $15 million or whatever the number ends up being will only help solidify the notion that sports cards (esp. Mantle) are a great place to invest.
-I did not win the mega millions so unfortunately I will not be bidding on this card
.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
That is insanely cool. Wow.
Ha! This is funny. "WAR is silly and the number 2 and number 11 WAR player are better than the number 16 player just above."
WAR isn't perfect, but it works far better than any other single stat for determining which player is better. If you seriously argue for OPS+, I'll just suggest that Ozzie Smith (87) is a far better player than Dave Kingman (115). WAR lacks nuance and probably doesn't adequately evaluate fielding, but it does a much better job than almost any other stat. If you want to use one number to determine whether, say, Andy Pettitte, Omar Vizquel, or Todd Helton is most worthy of the HoF, there really is no other choice.
Please PM me?
I’d like to discuss the post above. 😉
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
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Sent.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@nam812 said:
Can you do your magic with this card. Many feel the right side is trimmed.
Can we please stop using Cincinnati as an example! It's not like they are the worst team in baseball or the city stinks.
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So there was some thought given, and it wasn’t to pick on Cincinnati, but rather to point out that there is, in my opinion, most certainly a NY premium.
In 1951, there were only 16 major league teams. 11 of those teams were from only 5 cities: NY (Yanks, Giants, Dodgers), Boston (Sox, Braves), Philadelphia (Phillies, As) Chicago (Sox, Cubs) and St Louis (Cards, Browns). Also exclude the Senators so as to keep a constant locale during the entirety of Mantles career.
Which leaves four “small” market teams he could have played his entire career for: Pittsburg, Cincinnati, Detroit and Cleveland.
I guess I could have picked any of these but for the reasons others have stated, I like Cincinnati as the example. You’re right, they were not the worst team in baseball, which is kinda the point. Frank Robinson cards are, IMO, way undervalued compared to Mantle. Now you could say part of that is that Frank changed teams in his prime, and thus split the loyalty. And other reasons. But I just can’t believe a Mantle rookie would be the icon of the hobby if he played anywhere other than NY, and certainly not if it had been Cinncy. Or Pitt. No offense.
Thanks Green! I totally get it but I think players like Mickey and Reggie having huge World Series moments and their teams winning are equally important. I love the TBS Braves from the 90's but they just didn't produce like expected.
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I don't suppose it's the first ever 1952 Topps Mantle to get a PSA 10? I remember an article in a mid 90s Beckett (back when grading/slabbing was in its infancy) about a couple who sent in Mickey's REAL rookie card (1951 Bowman) and it got the first ever PSA 10 of that card.
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
6.35m with 15 days left.
15m+
20m+
We shall see
Came across this Mantle in my Instagram suggestions and thought to share it here. That centering is gorgeous.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
That is a spectacular 1. Probably some back damage, but who cares!
That is a hot 1!
Congrats to SGC for setting the record. It's the most ever paid for any sports item, card or memorabilia..12.6 Million.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
I own it. No back damage.
I saw it on IG as well and was able to strike a deal to acquire it. Broke the record for a 1 but my research indicates that there are only about 20 Mantles centered that well in all grades. So hadda have it.
Has the buyer come forward yet?
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
Yes 12.6M is an enormous figure and it exceeded its estimate by a big margin as well.