I posted this elsewhere....but here is a cool story and an amazing Cherrypick
redraider
Posts: 228 ✭✭✭✭✭
I am active on another forum, and for those of you there, I apologize you have to see this again....I had am amazing cherrypick last week while traveling out of state for work. I had some time to kill, so I found a coin shop and they had just picked up an old collection of mint state Indian Head Cents in a very old cardboard holder. It was missing the key dates, but the more common dates were of very high quality with a few proofs thrown in the mix. One of their regulars was there and primarily collected Indian Cents/Lincoln Cents and he spent about an hour going thought the coins, pulled about 10 out for himself, and I was given "2nd dibs". Well, there was an 1863 Judd-300 Pattern with a reeded edge in the box labeled as a normal proof. It really paid to look at the third side of the coin! $700 later, here it is.....
This will certainly be graded by PCGS in the coming weeks.
Comments
I have never heard of such a coin.
So cool! I've got to imagine it is not only rare yet also valuable.
I don’t know anything about them but that sounds like a darn cool story. Congratulations!
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That is a great pickup, congrats.
Wow, what a find. Under 20 known for that one. Did the shop realize it was a pattern as well?
Coin Photographer.
Nice job!
Nope!
Well done.
Philippians 4:4-7
aside from the potential financial windfall, what an exciting find in these times with so much information available to everyone. still, this stuff is lingering!
i looked it over side-by-side to see if i'd have caught it and if it were in a cent holder with almost no room to see the edge, it is not likely. nothing about the rest of the design jumps out other than the date being a little high.
a reeded edge indian cent. yowza!
YOU SUCK !
Excellant!
The only hint is the proof surfaces, but it would take a fairly knowledgeable collector to check the edge.
Coin Photographer.
PCGS show 11 graded, NGC 5.
Wonder if the shop owner or the "regular" are readers here. Is this the kind of thing that a dealer would hold against you, or congratulate you on your keen eye? You said out of state so maybe you weren't going back anyway...
Report the grade here after you get it back?
Welcome to the forum and Wow, if you only knew how many collections and boxes of IHC's I have went through and would have probably missed this coin anyway. Never heard of this pattern. Might have noticed the ribbed edge or not. Great find and congrats, amazing how those little side jaunts can be so rewarding.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Funny, years ago I bought an 1877 from them that graded vf30. Don’t know if either the dealer or customer are here, but I won’t really care. I also don’t think these are the kind of folks who would congratulate me.
It helped that this coin was raw, edge kind of stuck out for me in a 2x2.
@ThePennyLady and @EagleEye may be able to shed some light on this piece.
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Here are a couple of sales a long time ago.
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-28YTW/1863-pattern-indian-cent-judd-300-pollock-362-rarity-6-ms-64-pcgs-cac-eagle-eye-photo-seal
https://coins.ha.com/itm/patterns/1863-1c-one-cent-judd-300-pollock-362-high-r6-ms65-ngc/a/1172-4628.s
https://coins.ha.com/itm/patterns/1863-1c-one-cent-judd-300-pollock-360-low-r7-pr62/a/347-2080.s
Coin Facts info: https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1863-1c-j-300/70455
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He shouldn't hold it against the buyer. If he didn't notice the coin himself, he obviously paid for it and sold it as a regular issue piece. The guy who sold it to the dealer might have different thoughts though, should he somehow be made aware of what he had.
I’ve been in contact with Rick. I’m sending it to him before it goes to PCGS.
@MrEureka
when you have a moment, i have an inquiry re: the J-300 but it is kinda technical and requires some familiarity/documents/books for the patterns in this range. thanks
I might be able to help, while I’m new on this forum, I’m not new to collecting FE/IHCs and associated patterns. This coin I pictured above is my 8th pattern for small cents of the era and I have a number of resources.
I sure hope not all of those 8 patterns were cherried!
Coin Photographer.
Haha….this will be the ONLY pattern I think I will ever cherry-pick!
do you know at least to some degree, when a pattern is discovered, what may be some of the criteria for such. these days, not long ago.
lets say with some of the many discoveries i have (non-patterns) the protocol/requirements are generally the same across most US coins, if a person can prove that a different die was used for a marriage, rpm, ddo etc, then usually that results in a discovery/new designation or confirmation/removal of an old one.
SO, having said that. when clicking the CF page courtesy of keyman64 in a post above, i noticed a variance in the listed examples for J-300, enough so, that imo, it warrants attention to verify if a non J-300 is listed erroneously on the J-300 page or if there is a separate designation (discovery) of a unlisted die for one/some of the J-300s.
Welcome! @redraider
What a great find, especially as a cherry out in the wild! Based on your posts in this thread, I'm sure I'm not the only one who hopes you will visit us and share tidbits more often.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Ya, I saw this on the other forum, but it is still an awesome find and I certainly don't mind seeing it more than once!
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That’s a good question, but here’s the best I can do.
Patterns were pretty well documented by the mint when they were made. Rough mintage numbers exist for most. Sometimes they were even specifically made for distribution to collectors (like our modern commemoratives today). So starting with the info documented by the mint, and knowing what to look at, one would be able to add research and as a group of specialists, determine if something gets a new subvariety of a known Pattern. The coin I posted is a high date proof (documented with other known examples, and identified by an RPD that does not exist on any other Proof or MS IHCs of the year) There is also a low date proof and MS format spread across less than 20 known examples. Specifically as it would pertain to the J-300, it would have to go through a process to verify a new die pair. Probably starts with Rick Snow and ends at PCGS or NGC, but not sure if the in between steps (if any).
Nice cherrypick! Congrats!
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
ok. sounds about on par with what i've read, heard and discussed. thanks.
seems you were already aware of the date position variance. it would seem odd to me to lump them together or any other patterns with such an obvious different use of a die(s).
here is specifically what i saw:
i was doing to show the diagnostic crack/break/chips for the rev but probably not necessary at this point. either one of them on the J-300 page was accidentally listed there or 1 or more J-300s need broken out into a sub variety. imo.
perhaps i should have started on mreureka's site. pretty sure it is his.
https://uspatterns.stores.yahoo.net/j299p359.html
That's an amazing find...I'd like to see what Charmy and Rick can contribute about anything they know about that coin.
@redraider.... Welcome aboard. What a great find!! I was not aware of a reeded edge IHC. Fantastic.... Thanks for showing us, and let us know what Rick says about it. Cheers, RickO
This is one of the most interesting cherrypick threads I have ever seen on the forum. I've never seen this particular pattern, and an Indian cent with a reeded edge is just too cool.
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Awesome pick!
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
What a thrill to spot something no one else did.........and from a coin shop no less! You must have been having an anxiety attack when you first saw it!
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Nice going!!
WS
Awesome story!! Good for you.
For me, another educational moment.
Super find.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
Well.....this comment aged very poorly. I sent Rick Snow an 1864 PF64BN Indian cent for him to photoseal when I sent the J-300 to him. He quickly identified it as a "thick planchet" which meant either it was a Copper Nickel or a J-356 Pattern. Metal testing confirmed that it is indeed the J-356 Pattern. Interestingly, all known J-356 have 90% copper and 10% other metal. Metal testing on this coin says 80% Copper, 10% Tin and 10% other metal. It might get classified as a new variant of the J-356 (J-356c). Crazy!