How did this get straight graded?

pcgs69

Even if they net graded it... this should never have made it into a problem-free holder. The initials were noted in the auction description, at least.

ricko

I see the marks, not sure I can identify them as initials... I would call it 'graffiti'... And even with that, they are not a major issue. I would still be happy to own that coin. JMO Cheers, RickO

jerseycat101

@ricko said:
I see the marks, not sure I can identify them as initials... I would call it 'graffiti'... And even with that, they are not a major issue. I would still be happy to own that coin. JMO Cheers, RickO

Clearly "GxG" was carved into the coin. Not a coin I would expect in a problem free holder.

1630Boston

1795 $1 Flowing Hair, Two Leaves, B-2, BB-20, R.3, VG10 PCGS. Bowers Die State II. An lilac-gray and ice-blue Flowing Hair type coin. The eagle retains partial plumage definition on the wings and tail, and dentilation is bold except on the obverse near 9 o'clock. The fields show only trivial contact. Inspection beneath a loupe reveals faint D D initials on the portrait.

I'm not sure what the 'letters' are but I do not see a "DD".

ricko

@jerseycat101... OK, I now see that, was looking at it every way but that direction... Still, from the pictures, I do not think it is a major distraction - of course, as most collectors, I would prefer the coin without the marks. Cheers, RickO

1630Boston

Here's an older thread with this info - https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/958192/pcgs-grading-issue-3cn-with-grafitti
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I had a pcgs pr63 trade dollar with a huge scratch on the reverse that each dealer I showed the coin to said I should send back to pcgs as it shouldnt have been graded.

Luckily I was at a long beach show and low and behold David Hall was walking by.

i ran over and showed him the coin and asked what I should do.

He said "its a beautiful coin and is graded pr63 and not pr65 because of the scratch."
such is...

1630Boston

Looking at PCGS Photograde it looks better than VG10, ignoring the initials.Perhaps it lost a couple of points because of the 'GG'

ElKevvo

Looks like G x G to me...despite the marks it is still a coin that I would be happy to own.

K

logger7

Old scratch, worn in, not an expensive coin anyway. Not a cac coin.

MFeld

@logger7 said:
Old scratch, worn in, not an expensive coin anyway. Not a cac coin.

It's approximately a $3000+ coin, which is expensive for many collectors.

Edited to add: You seem quite cavalier about the coin. Would you be fine with it if you'd bought it sight-unseen?

NumisOxide

Should be in a details holder noting graffiti.

coastaljerseyguy

I don't understand if collectors would still love to own this coin knowing there is graffiti, why not slab it as a Fine Details which is what it is. Shouldn't be exceptions to standards which should be applied consistently, no matter the rarity. Let the market decide what its worth for what it is and not net grade.

ChrisH821

Pretty clear to me. GxG, they even scratched serifs on the G's

basetsb

A rookie must have graded it

LanceNewmanOCC

@ChrisH821 said:
Pretty clear to me. GxG, they even scratched serifs on the G's

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hey thanks. saved me the trouble!
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@1630Boston

The initials were noted in the auction description, at least.

that is pretty impressive.

MFeld

@basetsb said:
A rookie must have graded it

The coin would have been viewed by multiple graders, including a finalizer.

basetsb

@MFeld said:

@basetsb said:
A rookie must have graded it

The coin would have been viewed by multiple graders, including a finalizer.

*rookies

MFeld

@ChrisH821 said: )
Pretty clear to me. GxG, they even scratched serifs on the G's

Perhaps the initials were meant to be a precursor to our "Guess Grade" threads?

gumby1234

Details grade should be applied no matter what coin or how rare it may be. I would be very unhappy buying any straight graded coin that should be details.

jmski52

I wouldn't buy it.

braddick

Perhaps this one might also straight grade?

jerseycat101

@ricko said:
@jerseycat101... OK, I now see that, was looking at it every way but that direction... Still, from the pictures, I do not think it is a major distraction - of course, as most collectors, I would prefer the coin without the marks. Cheers, RickO

Could not disagree more. Carving of initials, no matter what the circumstance, is a major distraction.

I wonder if this was a net grade or just simply a huge miss by 3-4 people.

Avocet

The straight grade determination for this coin is an interesting question for sure. I give credit to Heritage for calling out the apparent graffiti: From their listing of this coin "Inspection beneath a loupe reveals faint D D initials on the portrait."

justmenutty72

According to SlickCoins, those could be the mysterious Master Engravers marks😂🤣😅

logger7

@MFeld said:

@logger7 said:
Old scratch, worn in, not an expensive coin anyway. Not a cac coin.

It's approximately a $3000+ coin, which is expensive for many collectors.

Edited to add: You seem quite cavalier about the coin. Would you be fine with it if you'd bought it sight-unseen?

These are not pretty coins, but quaint designs. This one would obviously sell at a discount, $500 or more less than a no issue coin. I had a VF30 once. There are many VG and Fine early bust dollar coins around. The fact that PCGS straight graded it tells you that a finalizer in the totality of the coin's qualities did not see the issues as enough to details grade it; ie vg details graffiti. As an employee at HA and a former grader maybe you can tell us why they did not details grade the coin?

Link to page: https://www.pcgs.com/cert/14833079

jughead1893

Good Grief

gumby1234

@justmenutty72 said:
According to SlickCoins, those could be the mysterious Master Engravers marks😂🤣😅

Thats only for the letter S and they are all over the coin.

TPRC

"GxG" I would be sick to my stomach if I bought that coin!

justmenutty72

Maybe the coin would’ve benefited from a couple of years in the pocket 🤔

Elcontador

Revier wrote the book about Bust $s. Haven't looked at it in awhile and forget if it included Flowing Hair $s as well. He says something like 80% of them have been played with. People want these coins. So unless the abuse done to them is deemed to have been severe, they are slabbed. Some are net graded because of this.

Before I bought my Bust $, I probably looked at 50 of them in the grade that interested me. I think three had original skins. Most either were bleached or lightly cleaned.

You have the same issues and resolution re pre 1815 copper.

jesbroken

I have always felt that a real 200+ year old circulated coin should naturally have scars and be considered genuine and grade without a details grade, unless main features are destroyed.
Jim

golden

It is not a coin that I would want.

pcgscacgold

Looks like it should have been graded on a curve.

pcgs69

Interesting that some here are open to straight grading engraved/graffiti coins as long as it was done a while ago.

MFeld

@logger7 said:

@MFeld said:

@logger7 said:
Old scratch, worn in, not an expensive coin anyway. Not a cac coin.

It's approximately a $3000+ coin, which is expensive for many collectors.

Edited to add: You seem quite cavalier about the coin. Would you be fine with it if you'd bought it sight-unseen?

These are not pretty coins, but quaint designs. This one would obviously sell at a discount, $500 or more less than a no issue coin. I had a VF30 once. There are many VG and Fine early bust dollar coins around. The fact that PCGS straight graded it tells you that a finalizer in the totality of the coin's qualities did not see the issues as enough to details grade it; ie vg details graffiti. As an employee at HA and a former grader maybe you can tell us why they did not details grade the coin?

Link to page: https://www.pcgs.com/cert/14833079

@logger7 said:

@MFeld said:

@logger7 said:
Old scratch, worn in, not an expensive coin anyway. Not a cac coin.

It's approximately a $3000+ coin, which is expensive for many collectors.

Edited to add: You seem quite cavalier about the coin. Would you be fine with it if you'd bought it sight-unseen?

These are not pretty coins, but quaint designs. This one would obviously sell at a discount, $500 or more less than a no issue coin. I had a VF30 once. There are many VG and Fine early bust dollar coins around. The fact that PCGS straight graded it tells you that a finalizer in the totality of the coin's qualities did not see the issues as enough to details grade it; ie vg details graffiti. As an employee at HA and a former grader maybe you can tell us why they did not details grade the coin?

Link to page: https://www.pcgs.com/cert/14833079

They either missed the graffiti or saw it, but thought it wasn’t bad enough to disqualify the coin from a straight grade. The former would be unfortunate and in my view, so would the latter.

savitale

I have seen much more subtle graffiti than that labeled "graffiti". I don't agree with having a different standard for 18th century coins or trophy coins.

msch1man

Definitely seems like coins from the 18th century get a lot more "leeway" when it comes to damage/cleaning. Looks like obvious graffiti to me based solely on the pictures. Not justifying it, but I wonder if it's possibly not as evident at different angles/lighting in hand.

justmenutty72

@ElKevvo said:
Looks like G x G to me...despite the marks it is still a coin that I would be happy to own.

K

I don’t think it’s terribly distracting either. I certainly wouldn’t pay the price as if it were a problem free coin, though.👍 would have to come down considerably. I don’t understand why they didn’t just give it a details grade. Maybe there’s a story behind it. Looks suspicious to me.🤔

BryceM

It's not the worst thing I've ever seen in a straight-grade holder, but I don't really like it. It would be an excellent "details" coin though.

MFeld

@justmenutty72 said:

@ElKevvo said:
Looks like G x G to me...despite the marks it is still a coin that I would be happy to own.

K

I don’t think it’s terribly distracting either. I certainly wouldn’t pay the price as if it were a problem free coin, though.👍 would have to come down considerably. I don’t understand why they didn’t just give it a details grade. Maybe there’s a story behind it. Looks suspicious to me.🤔

There’s nothing the least bit suspicious about it. Some coins get (what appears to be) the benefit of the doubt in receiving straight-grades. And others get (what appears to be) harsh treatment in the way of detail-grades. It’s a matter of judgment calls, that aren’t always consistent.

Coinscratch

I’ve seen plenty of these older coins catch all kinds of breaks. I’m curious how much time it spent in a Masonic Lodge.

justmenutty72

@MFeld said:

@justmenutty72 said:

@ElKevvo said:
Looks like G x G to me...despite the marks it is still a coin that I would be happy to own.

K

I don’t think it’s terribly distracting either. I certainly wouldn’t pay the price as if it were a problem free coin, though.👍 would have to come down considerably. I don’t understand why they didn’t just give it a details grade. Maybe there’s a story behind it. Looks suspicious to me.🤔

There’s nothing the least bit suspicious about it. Some coins get (what appears to be) the benefit of the doubt in receiving straight-grades. And others get (what appears to be) harsh treatment in the way of detail-grades. It’s a matter of judgment calls, that aren’t always consistent.

So are you trying to tell me that there’s no way a certain dealer/collector could get preferential treatment by a grading service? A “favor” so to speak. Or is it just the coin itself that would garner preferential treatment?

MFeld

@justmenutty72 said:

@MFeld said:

@justmenutty72 said:

@ElKevvo said:
Looks like G x G to me...despite the marks it is still a coin that I would be happy to own.

K

I don’t think it’s terribly distracting either. I certainly wouldn’t pay the price as if it were a problem free coin, though.👍 would have to come down considerably. I don’t understand why they didn’t just give it a details grade. Maybe there’s a story behind it. Looks suspicious to me.🤔

There’s nothing the least bit suspicious about it. Some coins get (what appears to be) the benefit of the doubt in receiving straight-grades. And others get (what appears to be) harsh treatment in the way of detail-grades. It’s a matter of judgment calls, that aren’t always consistent.

So are you trying to tell me that there’s no way a certain dealer/collector could get preferential treatment by a grading service? A “favor” so to speak. Or is it just the coin itself that would garner preferential treatment?

I believe it’s the coins, themselves. In general, older coins of this type and/or rarer ones (not submitters) seem to be more likely to catch breaks.

EliteCollection

It's also why the 1804 Dexter dollar was straight graded even with the D graffiti.

MFeld

@logger7 said:

@MFeld said:

@logger7 said:
Old scratch, worn in, not an expensive coin anyway. Not a cac coin.

0
It's approximately a $3000+ coin, which is expensive for many collectors.

Edited to add: You seem quite cavalier about the coin. Would you be fine with it if you'd bought it sight-unseen?

These are not pretty coins, but quaint designs. This one would obviously sell at a discount, $500 or more less than a no issue coin. I had a VF30 once. There are many VG and Fine early bust dollar coins around. The fact that PCGS straight graded it tells you that a finalizer in the totality of the coin's qualities did not see the issues as enough to details grade it; ie vg details graffiti. As an employee at HA and a former grader maybe you can tell us why they did not details grade the coin?

Link to page: https://www.pcgs.com/cert/14833079

I answered your question. Mine to you was “ Would you be fine with it if you'd bought it sight-unseen?”

PerryHall

I would buy it if it were cheap enough and so would the rest of you.

logger7

@MFeld said:

@logger7 said:

@MFeld said:

@logger7 said:
Old scratch, worn in, not an expensive coin anyway. Not a cac coin.

0
It's approximately a $3000+ coin, which is expensive for many collectors.

Edited to add: You seem quite cavalier about the coin. Would you be fine with it if you'd bought it sight-unseen?

These are not pretty coins, but quaint designs. This one would obviously sell at a discount, $500 or more less than a no issue coin. I had a VF30 once. There are many VG and Fine early bust dollar coins around. The fact that PCGS straight graded it tells you that a finalizer in the totality of the coin's qualities did not see the issues as enough to details grade it; ie vg details graffiti. As an employee at HA and a former grader maybe you can tell us why they did not details grade the coin?

Link to page: https://www.pcgs.com/cert/14833079

I answered your question. Mine to you was “ Would you be fine with it if you'd bought it sight-unseen?”

For me a fair sight unseen Bluesheet price (which is not listed) would be $1500-$2000, the variety is not attractive to me. There is a huge spread between VG and Fine.

A few months ago a local was calling around looking for a nice AU FH dollar after being outbid in an HA auction; I told him no one keeps such a coin in their inventory because they are hard to sell.

MFeld

@logger7 said:

@MFeld said:

@logger7 said:

@MFeld said:

@logger7 said:
Old scratch, worn in, not an expensive coin anyway. Not a cac coin.

0
It's approximately a $3000+ coin, which is expensive for many collectors.

Edited to add: You seem quite cavalier about the coin. Would you be fine with it if you'd bought it sight-unseen?

These are not pretty coins, but quaint designs. This one would obviously sell at a discount, $500 or more less than a no issue coin. I had a VF30 once. There are many VG and Fine early bust dollar coins around. The fact that PCGS straight graded it tells you that a finalizer in the totality of the coin's qualities did not see the issues as enough to details grade it; ie vg details graffiti. As an employee at HA and a former grader maybe you can tell us why they did not details grade the coin?

Link to page: https://www.pcgs.com/cert/14833079

I answered your question. Mine to you was “ Would you be fine with it if you'd bought it sight-unseen?”

For me a fair sight unseen Bluesheet price (which is not listed) would be $1500-$2000, the variety is not attractive to me. There is a huge spread between VG and Fine.

A few months ago a local was calling around looking for a nice AU FH dollar after being outbid in an HA auction; I told him no one keeps such a coin in their inventory because they are hard to sell.

I checked and couldn't find a straight grade example that brought less than $3100 all of last year or this year. So your "fair sight unseen Bluesheet price" is largely irrelevant. You haven't put yourself in the position of a buyer who could have easily paid $3000-$4000+. More specifically, the coin in question brought $4800.

lkenefic

@PerryHall said:
I would buy it if it were cheap enough and so would the rest of you.

This!! It's a rare coin and (for me) would be quite a stretch in the coin budget to procure. That said, getting a damaged one would likely be the only way I'd ever be able to have this in my collection. If I was buying it "sight unseen" and spending PCGS list price, or more... [first off, I'd be reading the auction description of the coin which notes the graffiti]... but I'd be pretty upset if I was expecting a straight-graded coin and got the one in the OP...

SlickCoins

Hey all good morning oops 😬 😆
Yes G x G good catch all I like the S C coin also.
Ok,, clearly these are not Master Engraver marks for this was done to the coin I itself.
In my opinion ↑↑↑↓↓↓←→
Master Engraver marks are done to the on the die.
Hmmm makes us all wonder,,,I knew I was wrong somewhere and here it is kinda.
I said Master Engraver on recycled dies 1834 and prior,,, these are not the same on the 1943 coins I've brought to light and adds to the confusion for the 1943 has marks yes but it's super clear those marks are different than the other ones, they look struck on the die and show it when "juiced" aka filters applied to the pictures.
Also note the lack of Master on those marks on 1943 compared to early 1793-1834 examples,,,, JMO
Someone said juiced up,, well it stuck
Thanks all
Awesome coin thanks for sharing
SC

oldabeintx

I can accept some problems with older coins if those problems occurred naturally or accidentally. If a coin of that vintage is purposely altered I would avoid it, and believe a details grade is in order.