Uncirculated versus mint state

Che_Grapes

I’ve been taught that MS60 and above is uncirculated. However, I know of a coin that was in circulation that graded MS63. (It was a W quarter - all of which technically were released into circulation). I’m confused by this - maybe someone can clarify for me. Mint state does not always mean uncirculated, does it?

MFeld

Some coins circulate lightly enough, such that they don’t display any wear and are awarded MS grades (as in 60 or higher). You wouldn’t know from just looking at them, that they’d been pulled from circulation.

gumby1234

The only way a coin would technically be uncirculated is if acquired from the mint. Mint sets etc. Mint State or any other grade refers to the condition the coin is in.

JBK

To me, they are essentially the same.

"Uncirculated" as we use it is a grade, not a status. A new coin from the cash register might well still be uncirculated if it has not picked up any wear.

MFeld

@gumby1234 said:
The only way a coin would technically be uncirculated is if acquired from the mint. Mint sets etc. Mint State or any other grade refers to the condition the coin is in.

You left out all of the new coins acquired at banks.

Baley

I've long been of the opinion that the adjectival grade descriptions are not only unnecessary, but also confusing and often inaccurate at best and often highly illogical

Just use a number for the net state of preservation for the overall grade, and then an expertly written paragraph to expand on the specific coin's particulars, the details of which are proportional to that coin's significance to the surviving population of the issue.

MFeld

@JBK said:
To me, they are essentially the same.

"Uncirculated" as we use it is a grade, not a status. A new coin from the cash register might well still be uncirculated if it has not picked up any wear.

“Uncirculated” as some of us use it, is a status, not a grade. 😉 And a new coin from the cash register, would technically no longer be uncirculated, even if it hasn’t picked up any wear and would still grade Mint State/60 or higher.

gumby1234

@MFeld Yes I did on purpose because they are technically circulated by the time they get to the bank. First the go to the armored car service and get tossed around and rolled up and boxed. Even thou they haven't entered circulation yet.

MFeld

@gumby1234 said:
@MFeld Yes I did on purpose because they are technically circulated by the time they get to the bank. First the go to the armored car service and get tossed around and rolled up and boxed. Even thou they haven't entered circulation yet.

If “they haven’t entered circulation yet”, how could they be circulated? They might display a multitude of handling marks, but technically, they’d still be uncirculated, wouldn’t they?

gumby1234

@MFeld nitpicking here lol. They circulated from the mint to the armored car service to the bank. Not used in commerce yet thou. They would still be Mint state for sure in varying grades.

Baley

Technically, and colloquially, "uncirculated" is binary, either a coin has been spent or it has not. And Mint State is too, and means exactly as it left the dies.

In practice in numismatics, tthe terms are not used like that. At all. Hence thus this thread and many others like it over the years.

Both terms are stupid, but will probably never go away.

Che_Grapes

Aren’t they circulated as soon as they leave the mint in bags “intended” for circulation?
I agree that only those products bought straight from the mint are truly uncirculated, no?
According to the mint; all W quarters were “added into circulation” along with P and D mints.... So none of them are technically uncirculated, despite those with MS67 grades... would you agree?

MFeld

@Che_Grapes said:
Aren’t they circulated as soon as they leave the mint in bags “intended” for circulation?
I agree that only those products bought straight from the mint are truly uncirculated, no?
According to the mint; all W quarters were “added into circulation” along with P and D mints.... So none of them are technically uncirculated, despite those with MS67 grades... would you agree?

I don’t think so. For example, Morgan dollars stored in sealed bags for over 100 years are still considered to be “uncirculated”. Ditto for some rolls of Buffalo nickels, Mercury dimes, Walking Liberty halves, etc.

gumby1234

W quarters technically are all circulated, but some are so well preserved to garner a MS67 grade. Having not worn or received enough marks or any scratches along the way.

Che_Grapes

@gumby1234 said:
W quarters technically are all circulated, but some are so well preserved to garner a MS67 grade. Having not worn or received enough marks or any scratches along the way.

Right, so MS67 does not mean uncirculated- that’s my point, I hear these grades called uncirculated all the time - like they are synonymous. This was my question.

Che_Grapes

from @MFeld
I don’t think so. For example, Morgan dollars stored in sealed bags for over 100 years are still considered to be “uncirculated”. Ditto for some rolls of Buffalo nickels, Mercury dimes, Walking Liberty halves, etc.

Fair point - those bags never quite made it into circulation despite being intended as such. You are always the one with straight answers!! Thank you

gumby1234

Theres a fuzzy line. An MS67 coin could have seen very slight circulation but it could also never have seen any circulation and been straight from a mint set to a slab.

Mr_Spud

Good thing I collect mainly circulated coins 😎

pursuitofliberty

I agree with @Baley that these terms have strictly technical and in-practice market meanings that are vastly different, and I always appreciate @MFeld 's point of view.

I was taught to look at the coin and not pretend you know where it came from (in case you do). This eliminates the situation where any found coin outside of a sealed bank box or a known mint delivery could not fairly be considered Uncirculated (in the most technical interpretation).

After removing or accepting this knowledge, are there marks and surface wear that suggest circulation and/or (mis)handling? This is a very subjective area, and the premise for all MS58 / AU63 arguments.

Anyway, if so, do not call it Uncirculated or grade it as Mint State. Grade it according to wear, loss of luster, and other marks. AU58, or less.

If not, grade it as a level of preservation for Mint State, which we have accepted as the term for "not Circulated", where 70 is virtual perfection to the unaided eye, and 60 can be baggy, lackluster and even somewhat abused, but not worn, or with evidence of circulation and wear.

lilolme

This is kind of funny. Here is a 2008 thread with the same Title.
Okay so it is vs and versus.
There are many others in the search.
Decide what you want and then recognize what the TPG are doing.

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/686112/uncirculated-vs-mint-state

krueger

"Friction,Friction, Friction"

Flip friction
Envelope friction
Stacking friction
Traveling Friction
Stacking Friction
Roll Friction
Bag friction
Coin Cabinet drawer slide friction
Album Slide friction.
Original Skin shine by contact with other coins
Rub, A pejorative as it implies wear to a buyer.
Toning removal from handling

I have heard them all---

All produce some " thigh/ breast / high point shine and You will see it in many MS holders all the way to MS66
some one decided it was in each case not wear with the above justifications only known to them. Causes much confusion and disagreement.
I have seen coins I am very familiar with in 66 holders were the thigh high point is flat from wear not rounded ,not strike related on the issue.
so make your own judgements. wear or Friction. Buy the coin you like and are willing to pay for

My friend now refers to all these as having "Thigh Shine"

How fun!
47 years a collector

Joey29

@krueger said:
"Friction,Friction, Friction"

Flip friction
Envelope friction
Stacking friction
Traveling Friction
Stacking Friction
Roll Friction
Bag friction
Coin Cabinet drawer slide friction
Album Slide friction.
Original Skin shine by contact with other coins
Rub, A pejorative as it implies wear to a buyer.
Toning removal from handling

I have heard them all---

All produce some " thigh/ breast / high point shine and You will see it in many MS holders all the way to MS66
some one decided it was in each case not wear with the above justifications only known to them. Causes much confusion and disagreement.
I have seen coins I am very familiar with in 66 holders were the thigh high point is flat from wear not rounded ,not strike related on the issue.
so make your own judgements. wear or Friction. Buy the coin you like and are willing to pay for

My friend now refers to all these as having "Thigh Shine"

How fun!
47 years a collector

Some of these frictions are legitimate such as stacking and roll friction which can be usually distinguished from true wear by professional graders. I just don’t know if net grading should be allowed for coins without field wear and full luster but tiny spots of rub from wear from slight circulation, On high points such as the knee on slq and saints / The TPG services allow it but CAC doesn’t as should be. Perhaps a AU 59 grade for these coins as has been proposed in the past by forum members

thefinn

@MFeld said:

@gumby1234 said:
The only way a coin would technically be uncirculated is if acquired from the mint. Mint sets etc. Mint State or any other grade refers to the condition the coin is in.

You left out all of the new coins acquired at banks.

No guarantee that they hadn’t been put into circulation. The banks don’t get their coins directly from the mints.

MFeld

@thefinn said:

@MFeld said:

@gumby1234 said:
The only way a coin would technically be uncirculated is if acquired from the mint. Mint sets etc. Mint State or any other grade refers to the condition the coin is in.

You left out all of the new coins acquired at banks.

No guarantee that they hadn’t been put into circulation. The banks don’t get their coins directly from the mints.

I didn’t say all coins from banks are uncirculated and as to banks not getting coins from the Mint:
https://www.usmint.gov/news/inside-the-mint/how-coins-are-made-bringing-coins-into-circulation

ricko

This issue seems to be like picking fly feces from the pepper... However, many aspects of the coin hobby are like that. Just give me big, precious metal coins that look nice... Cheers, RickO

Che_Grapes

@lilolme said:
This is kind of funny. Here is a 2008 thread with the same Title.
Okay so it is vs and versus.
There are many others in the search.
Decide what you want and then recognize what the TPG are doing.

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/686112/uncirculated-vs-mint-state

Interesting. I lived in Europe in 2008 so I must have missed this one. Not sure I intended to be part of any TPG conspiracy! Just appreciate the knowledge I gain from the fellow collectors who post on this message board. All the best,

lilolme

@Che_Grapes said:

@lilolme said:
This is kind of funny. Here is a 2008 thread with the same Title.
Okay so it is vs and versus.
There are many others in the search.
Decide what you want and then recognize what the TPG are doing.

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/686112/uncirculated-vs-mint-state

Interesting. I lived in Europe in 2008 so I must have missed this one. Not sure I intended to be part of any TPG conspiracy! Just appreciate the knowledge I gain from the fellow collectors who post on this message board. All the best,

I don't follow your comment at all about TPG conspiracy. So I will assume you did not follow mine. Clarified below (I hope).

Decide what you want - about what is uncirculated or not or what is mint state or not.

Recognize what the TPG are doing - that is grading coins and determining if they are AU(insert number) or MS(insert number) per their grading standards.
This of course can change a little with the addition of the first strike and sealed boxes and all, but still the TPG then grade the coin.

1630Boston

From our host
.
Grading is a way of determining the physical condition of a coin. Grades range from Poor (almost completely worn out) to Perfect Uncirculated (a coin with absolutely no wear and no flaws of any kind). Over 99.9% of all coins fall somewhere between these two extremes.

Mint State
Coins that have been properly stored since the day they were minted are called "uncirculated" or "mint state."
If a coin saw circulation for a short time but still looks nearly brand new, it is called (or graded) "About Uncirculated."

JBK

@1630Boston said:
Mint State
Coins that have been properly stored since the day they were minted are called "uncirculated" or "mint state."
If a coin saw circulation for a short time but still looks nearly brand new, it is called (or graded) "About Uncirculated."

I'd have to disagree slightly with this comment, or more specifically, with what is left out of it.

What if a coin "saw circulation for a short time" but "looks brand new" and not "nearly" brand new? In that case it would still be considered uncirculated.

lilolme

@JBK said:

@1630Boston said:
Mint State
Coins that have been properly stored since the day they were minted are called "uncirculated" or "mint state."
If a coin saw circulation for a short time but still looks nearly brand new, it is called (or graded) "About Uncirculated."

I'd have to disagree slightly with this comment, or more specifically, with what is left out of it.

What if a coin "saw circulation for a short time" but "looks brand new" and not "nearly" brand new? In that case it would still be considered uncirculated.

Agree and better wording than mine above.
When a coin goes to a TPG and a grader, they determine the coin grade based on their grading standards and the details of the coins. 99 plus % of the time they don't know the history of the coin or circulation of.
Again noting that the first strike and similar type of submission are a different.

SanctionII

If one obtains a coin directly from the mint (i.e. in a mint set), removes a coin from the OGP and places the coin in one's right hand is that coin no longer "uncirculated"?

What if the coin is then transferred from one's right hand to one's left hand. Is it at that point that the coin is no longer "uncirculated"?

What if the coin is transferred from one's right hand to the right hand of one's brother. is it at that point that the coin is not longer "uncirculated"?

Putting things another way, is there a definition of the terms "circulated" and "uncirculated" that have a bright line (a bright line that is so specific that they allow one to conclusively say whether a given coin is one or the other)?

JBK

No.

By such a strict definition, no coin would remain "uncirculated". It will change hands at some point in some way.

Imagine having an MS70 coin that someone argues is "circulated".

Che_Grapes

So the W Quarters can be mint state, but according to mint definition, they are not uncirculated. That contradicts above that where it says “mint state and uncirculated” should maybe say “mint state and/or uncirculated”??

Baley

It's a little like the AT/NT debate...
Does it really matter if two identical coins, one with toning acquired through years in an album, and another doctored in a few days, are described differently? remember, they're identical in this thought experiment.

Similarly, what's the difference between two IDENTICAL coins, one with "roll/stacking high point friction, and another with high point friction from being slid across a store checkout counter a couple times?

None. Absolutely none. The coin must speak for itself to experienced eyes. The unverifiable "story" doesn't convey woth the sale.

jesbroken

I was always of the opinion that it was how the coin left the mint, which if it was sent to banks for circulation, then it is circulated as soon as it reaches the bank, as the bank does not purposefully sell uncirculated coins.
Jim

JBK

@Che_Grapes said:
So the W Quarters can be mint state, but according to mint definition, they are not uncirculated.

That's not the way I read it all.

JBK

@jesbroken said:
I was always of the opinion that it was how the coin left the mint, which if it was sent to banks for circulation, then it is circulated as soon as it reaches the bank, as the bank does not purposefully sell uncirculated coins.
Jim

When I was first starting out many years ago I was hung up on these issues and semantics. I failed to save many blazing coins that came from the cash register because they had been touched by human hands and therefore couldn't be uncirculated.

To me, "uncirculated" is a status that is represented by a condition of the same name. When you have a bre coin with no circulation wear then it is in uncirculated condition, and where it came from becomes irrelevant as a practical matter.

I just don't see how a Mint State coin can be called "circulated".

OAKSTAR

It's your classic oxymoron in our hobby. Can you find an uncirculated coin in circulated? Can you find a mint state coin in circulation?

Sapyx

The cause of confusion here is the difference between the technical numismatic definition of the term "Uncirculated", as a grading standard, versus the literal definition of the word "uncirculated".

As coin collectors, we should be used to having a dichotomy between the words we use to define a coin's grade, and the literal definition of those exact same words. Consider the grade "Very Good": it's actually rather bad, and quite the opposite of the literal, everyday meaning of those two words when used together like that. A "Very Fine" coin isn't really all that much better.

This is why I, whenever I use coin grading terminology in my writing, always capitalize the words.

The literal meaning of "uncirculated" - not that that word is even a proper English word, as all my spell-checkers always want to try to correct it for me to either "circulated" or "unarticulated" - would be "a coin that has never entered circulation", never touched by mere mortal hands.

The numismatic meaning of "Uncirculated" - "a coin that does not show any wear or other evidence from circulation".

The main difference is that test for evidence. If an uncirculated Uncirculated coin is given out by a bank and used as money, it stops being uncirculated, but doesn't cease being Uncirculated until and unless it actually shows physical signs of that circulation on it.

Nysoto

I own quite a few nineteenth-century coins graded PCGS MS62-64. I believe that PCGS generally does a good job at making the distinction between coins that circulated in commerce vs coins that have circulated through generations of collectors. An MS62 graded by PCGS will have moderate rub on high areas with cabinet friction, could have a few grade-limiting hits from the Mint or clumsy collectors, but will lack the multiple ticks and field luster breaks from circulation in commerce.

I don't worry about the semantics, I just enjoy my MS62-64's.

PCGS MS62 (well, this one should be a 63):

PerryHall

@Sapyx said:
The cause of confusion here is the difference between the technical numismatic definition of the term "Uncirculated", as a grading standard, versus the literal definition of the word "uncirculated".

Agree. We need a thread to discuss why a coin that is graded Good is not usually good.

Cougar1978

They mean same.

Che_Grapes

@Cougar1978 said:
They mean same.

But are they the same? I bring into question a coin like the 2020 W quarter, all were put into circulation (as stated by the US mint) yet some are graded MS66 or higher. So they are mint state but not uncirculated.
I’ll end further comment here - there is some great explanation above - thanks to all ...

MFeld

@Che_Grapes said:

@Cougar1978 said:
They mean same.

But are they the same? I bring into question a coin like the 2020 W quarter, all were put into circulation (as stated by the US mint) yet some are graded MS66 or higher. So they are mint state but not uncirculated.
I’ll end further comment here - there is some great explanation above - thanks to all ...

They mean different things to different people - like many other numismatic terms.😉
However, to me “mint state” typically relates to a numerical grade, which can be/is applied, independently from whether a coin has is actually uncirculated.