*Need Advice Re: PCGS submission that I received with Unsealed slabs*

unimpossible

So I've read a few threads on here addressing similar experiences with Unsealed slabs - they seem very uncommon, so lucky me - and they all have basically the same responses ("Wow."/"Someone's gettin' chewed out!"/"Everyone make mistakes. Send it back and PCGS will make it right"). The question I haven't really seen addressed is one of compensation, specifically if it's fair to expect to be compensated for my time, the money I'm losing, and/or the simple fact that PCGS clearly didn't provide the service that I paid for. I obviously have my own thoughts on the matter, but I've talked enough for now. I really want to know what you all think. Thanks everybody!

ifthevamzarockin

"The question I haven't really seen addressed is one of compensation, specifically if it's fair to expect to be compensated for my time, the money I'm losing, and/or the simple fact that PCGS clearly didn't provide the service that I paid for. I obviously have my own thoughts on the matter"

From the PCGS terms of service

IN NO EVENT, AND UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES OR LEGAL OR EQUITABLE THEORY, SHALL PCGS BE LIABLE OR RESPONSIBLE TO CUSTOMER OR ANY THIRD PARTY FOR ANY PUNITIVE DAMAGES, INDIRECT DAMAGES, CONSEQUENTIAL
DAMAGES, SPECIAL DAMAGES, INCIDENTAL DAMAGES, LOST PROFITS, LOSS, OR INJURY, INCLUDING
WITHOUT LIMITATION, PERSONAL INJURY, BODILY INJURY, PROPERTY DAMAGE, EMOTIONAL DISTRESS,
DEATH, REAL OR PROPERTY DAMAGE, BUSINESS INTERRUPTION DAMAGE, COSTS OF DELAY OR LOST
PROFITS.

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ifthevamzarockin

"offer me a refund or credit."

Refund..... No
You may get a couple of vouchers for 1 free coin grading.

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winesteven

In my opinion, PCGS should (and will) just cover the shipping costs both ways, and will fix their mechanical errors. Personally, I wouldn’t even think of asking for anything else, like vouchers, refunds, credits, etc. It’s no big deal.

Steve

MFeld

I’d expect them to pay for any extra shipping expenses that you incur and perhaps issue some grading vouchers. I believe that it would be unrealistic to expect anything beyond that.

PerryHall

I wonder what that would bring on eBay?
On a serious note, I imagine PCGS would go out of their way to get that blunder off the market. Someone could change the label and/or put in a different coin for fraudulent purposes.

ricko

@unimpossible... Welcome aboard. Obviously a process error. I would think they would pay shipping both ways and rectify the issue. Let us know what happens. Cheers, RickO

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winesteven

@unimpossible said:
@winesteven how many coins would it need to be in order for it to be a big deal in your opinion?

That issue itself is not a big deal to me. They made an error, and will be willing to fix it, at their cost.

Here's my question to you: If while you're in your car stopped at a light, and the driver behind you accidentally goes slowly into your rear bumper at about 2 or 3 mph., and you and that driver go out to see if there was any damage, and there was none visible, how much money would you ask for, either from the driver, or their insurance company? While you can say this is apples and oranges, I say it's the same attitude. If a person/company made a mistake, and if there's no real problem, I would choose to not look for something for me. From your post, I see you have a different attitude.

Have a nice holiday weekend.

Steve

ZoidMeister

@unimpossible said:

@winesteven how many coins would it need to be in order for it to be a big deal in your opinion?

.

So, elucidate for us. How many unsealed slabs were returned? How many did you send in?

Inquiring minds . . . . .

Z

MasonG

@ifthevamzarockin said:
"The question I haven't really seen addressed is one of compensation, specifically if it's fair to expect to be compensated for my time, the money I'm losing, and/or the simple fact that PCGS clearly didn't provide the service that I paid for. I obviously have my own thoughts on the matter"

It's fair to expect that PCGS fixes the problem at no additional cost to you over and above what you originally paid for grading. Compensation? I believe you agreed that PCGS was not responsible for incidental damages when you sent your coins to be graded and that it would not be fair to now insist that they are.

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Catbert

My first reaction would not be to start a thread looking for insight as to what would be a satisfactory resolution in terms of compensation. My first step would be to contact PCGS to promptly resolve. Mistakes happen and this isn’t wounding. They should cover your shipping expenses.

Culturally, I have a strong dislike for those who operate through life with a victim hood mentality looking for opportunities to win a jackpot. Maybe that isn’t you, yet it has that odor.

Goldminers

One of my coins in a submission a year or two ago was in a loose slab not sealed. I asked to have it fixed and they sent me a free shipping label and instructions for the form to send to a special address and in a month, it came back sealed. No additional cost. Simple. Just call PCGS. No other compensation is warranted.

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Connecticoin

What do you mean by unsealed - the slab came apart because it was not sonically sealed properly?

winesteven

@unimpossible said:
Allow me to offer an alternate scenario, exactly the same as yours, except the car hits you going about 40. In this scenario I would bring my previously noted lost time and money back into the equation, which I feel I deserve compensation for even though I'm not legally entitled to "damages". Thanks for the attitude though!

Thanks for the clarification, as it really helps. You see your situation with PCGS the same as having been hit from behind at 40 mph, while many of us see it as comparable to having been hit from behind at just 2 mph or 3 mph.

You made a great point! Thanks for the clarification.

lkeigwin

Don't expect free vouchers. In fact PCGS made the dealer pay for reholding the 1820 below! (Absurd, I agree.)

PCGS reholdered the 1795 at no cost, IIRC.

This week I found another one, my 1815/2. I plan on taking it to the ANA show and politely, but strongly asking that it be sealed and returned before the show is over. And don't lose the sticker!
Lance.

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Goldminers

@Connecticoin said:
What do you mean by unsealed - the slab came apart because it was not sonically sealed properly?

That is what mine was like. I had initially considered using a hot iron set on polyester

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amwldcoin

@lkeigwin said:
Don't expect free vouchers. In fact PCGS made the dealer pay for reholding the 1820 below! (Absurd, I agree.)

PCGS reholdered the 1795 at no cost, IIRC.

This week I found another one, my 1815/2. I plan on taking it to the ANA show and politely, but strongly asking that it be sealed and returned before the show is over. And don't lose the sticker!
Lance.

Unfortunately they will probably have to use a new holder so you will loose the sticker. If for no other reason the dimensions have changed on the new holders. The sonic sealers are like a mold that the holder sits in.

Catbert

@unimpossible said:

@Catbert said:
My first reaction would not be to start a thread looking for insight as to what would be a satisfactory resolution in terms of compensation. My first step would be to contact PCGS to promptly resolve. Mistakes happen and this isn’t wounding. They should cover your shipping expenses.

Culturally, I have a strong dislike for those who operate through life with a victim hood mentality looking for opportunities to win a jackpot. Maybe that isn’t you, yet it has that odor

@Catbert The very first thing I did when I discovered the issue was to call PCGS. I called around 10 AM PST and was encouraged to leave a callback number, which I did. After a bit, they called and I explained the situation to the extremely polite and professional customer service rep. He said that because he was off-site, he couldn't transfer me to a Supervisor, but that he would write up an urgent ticket and I should expect a call back from them. Got a call back about three hours later (while I was out) and not from a Supervisor, but the original rep I spoke to. I waited about two more hours for him to call back (because he said he would), then finally decided to try calling PCGS again. This time I waited on hold in hopes of speaking to someone who could connect me with a Supervisor. When I got through I was told by a different CSR that she also had no way of transferring calls to Supervisors, and that it could take up to 72 hours for one to get back to me (apparently the Long Beach Expo requires a lot of supervision). So, since I can't talk to a Supervisor, and my entire weekend of work is now cancelled (I sell coins, btw), I decided to use this as an opportunity to study up on unsealed slabs. That's what brought me to this forum in the first place, and that was the motivation behind my initial question.

Thanks for implying that I'm a scumbag though.

Glad to learn that you contacted PCGS. I stand by my comments.

PerryHall

I'm concerned about this being serious security breach. A less than honest person could substitute a lower graded coin (a flashy MS64 Saint for the MS66 Saint for example) and then seal the slab shell with a few drops of crazy glue. I assume that a quality control inspection took place of the completed slab. I'm surprised no one caught this.

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Catbert

You asked for opinions and feedback. We have different perspectives. That's okay. I gave you my interpretation based upon the information you shared. I said that maybe you look at things in a way that doesn't appeal to me. Maybe you don't, but based upon your interaction in the example that @winesteven provided, I suspect you seek to take advantage of the situation. So be it.

BryceM

Internet drama.... yawn.

The only real advice anyone here can give you is to contact PCGS and let them offer a solution. It might take some effort to reach them. Customer service from any industry in this new world is pretty dismal. Stuff happens. Most likely, they'll fix it.

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logger7

I hope the problem gets addressed, but I'm sure they are overwhelmed with limited cs employee availability to address the issue. This is not a huge company, I would just think in terms of how all the other similar companies would try to fix problems like this with their low profit margins.

CU is bigger than it was a few years ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectors_Universe

gumby1234

" and my entire weekend of work is now cancelled (I sell coins, btw)" So one submission of coins that came back not sealed keeps you from working for the weekend? Maybe no work for months if you have to send them back to be resealed before you can work again.

LanceNewmanOCC

@lkeigwin said:
Don't expect free vouchers. In fact PCGS made the dealer pay for reholding the 1820 below! (Absurd, I agree.)

PCGS reholdered the 1795 at no cost, IIRC.

This week I found another one, my 1815/2. I plan on taking it to the ANA show and politely, but strongly asking that it be sealed and returned before the show is over. And don't lose the sticker!
Lance.

.
wow

do you mean you didn't notice the 1815/2 when it came back from pcgs and much later on you found it unsealed because it never occurred to check (it shouldn't even occur until this year apparently!) or do you mean you noticed it from a submission that just came back recent/somewhat recent. i ask to gauge how long this problem may have been happening.

also, if you find time, if you'd post an edge shot of the slabs, i've been wondering how they connect for the LONGEST time.

nk1nk

If you sell them pm me. if PCGS doesn’t make right enough in your eyes, I will.

MFeld

@unimpossible said:

@Catbert said:
You asked for opinions and feedback. We have different perspectives. That's okay. I gave you my interpretation based upon the information you shared. I said that maybe you look at things in a way that doesn't appeal to me. Maybe you don't, but based upon your interaction in the example that @winesteven provided, I suspect you seek to take advantage of the situation. So be it.

@DoubleDown If by "take advantage of" you mean "not lose money because of", then yes, I do. Every day that these coins don't sell costs me money, and it's not because of an act of God. We're talking about a service that I paid for and clearly didn't receive due to multiple people's inability to do their job properly. You are correct that we have different perspectives, and that's great because that's what I came here for so I could make an informed decision. Your perspective just happens to be a particularly uninformed one, from my perspective. It's a rich tapestry.

Would you feel similarly if/when an order takes longer than you expect, based on posted estimated turnaround times? That wouldn’t be “an act of God”, either, and based on what you posted, that would cost you money, as well.

Goldminers

4th of July weekend, Long Beach Show, slabs falling apart, no one will talk to me, my business is ruined, oh my.
I thought getting outbid on a coin I wanted at Stacks was as bad as it gets.

jmlanzaf

@unimpossible said:

@PerryHall said:
I'm concerned about this being serious security breach. A less than honest person could substitute a lower graded coin (a flashy MS64 Saint for the MS66 Saint for example) and then seal the slab shell with a few drops of crazy glue. I assume that a quality control inspection took place of the completed slab. I'm surprised no one caught this.

This is my thought as well. If @DoubleDown thought about it for 5 seconds, he'd realize that if my sole motivation were money, I could easily sell these coins as they are at a higher premium than my $22 grading fee. Which then makes one have to wonder:. How many coins like these have been sent to people who are less scrupulous than myself? You see Double Down, there's a crisis of faith going on here under the surface that you're completely missing.

I fail to see how an open holder with a raw coin would carry any premium. The buyer would just assume you managed to open it and swap coins.

jmlanzaf

@MFeld said:

@unimpossible said:

@Catbert said:
You asked for opinions and feedback. We have different perspectives. That's okay. I gave you my interpretation based upon the information you shared. I said that maybe you look at things in a way that doesn't appeal to me. Maybe you don't, but based upon your interaction in the example that @winesteven provided, I suspect you seek to take advantage of the situation. So be it.

@DoubleDown If by "take advantage of" you mean "not lose money because of", then yes, I do. Every day that these coins don't sell costs me money, and it's not because of an act of God. We're talking about a service that I paid for and clearly didn't receive due to multiple people's inability to do their job properly. You are correct that we have different perspectives, and that's great because that's what I came here for so I could make an informed decision. Your perspective just happens to be a particularly uninformed one, from my perspective. It's a rich tapestry.

Would you feel similarly if/when an order takes longer than you expect, based on posted estimated turnaround times? That wouldn’t be “an act of God”, either, and based on what you posted, that would cost you money, as well.

I don't believe the entire story without pictures. Slabs failing to seal is a rare event. It is hard to imagine multiple slabs in the same submission.

I feel like I may have accidentally wandered under a bridge.

lilolme

@LanceNewmanOCC said:

@lkeigwin said:
Don't expect free vouchers. In fact PCGS made the dealer pay for reholding the 1820 below! (Absurd, I agree.)

PCGS reholdered the 1795 at no cost, IIRC.

This week I found another one, my 1815/2. I plan on taking it to the ANA show and politely, but strongly asking that it be sealed and returned before the show is over. And don't lose the sticker!
Lance.

.
wow

do you mean you didn't notice the 1815/2 when it came back from pcgs and much later on you found it unsealed because it never occurred to check (it shouldn't even occur until this year apparently!) or do you mean you noticed it from a submission that just came back recent/somewhat recent. i ask to gauge how long this problem may have been happening.

also, if you find time, if you'd post an edge shot of the slabs, i've been wondering how they connect for the LONGEST time.

I have seen a better rendering for the slab pieces but here is one on pcgs page. About half way down under a better weld.

https://www.pcgs.com/security

Had to pick through the pieces but I am fairly sure this is the latest. From a cracked out one. As shown on the pcgs page one piece fits inside the other.

lkeigwin

@LanceNewmanOCC said:

@lkeigwin said:
Don't expect free vouchers. In fact PCGS made the dealer pay for reholding the 1820 below! (Absurd, I agree.)

PCGS reholdered the 1795 at no cost, IIRC.

This week I found another one, my 1815/2. I plan on taking it to the ANA show and politely, but strongly asking that it be sealed and returned before the show is over. And don't lose the sticker!
Lance.

.
wow

do you mean you didn't notice the 1815/2 when it came back from pcgs and much later on you found it unsealed because it never occurred to check (it shouldn't even occur until this year apparently!) or do you mean you noticed it from a submission that just came back recent/somewhat recent. i ask to gauge how long this problem may have been happening.

also, if you find time, if you'd post an edge shot of the slabs, i've been wondering how they connect for the LONGEST time.

Good questions. The 1795 and 1820 were holdered in 2018, best guess. The 1815 was slabbed late 2016. So all three were around the same time.

Most people wouldn't notice the problem. It's not like the slab halves fall apart in your hands. You can detect the problem by gently twisting/torquing the holder. If you hear any plastic crackle the slab halves are not bonded. You can feel a little looseness. Fingernails are all that's needed to pull apart the two halves.

The slab design has been described as a shoe box style. The bottom slab half is the open shoe box. The gasket, coin and cert are placed in it. The slightly larger top half is the shoe box lid that slides over the bottom. The fit is very precise, of course. Even if not sealed properly the two halves stay together...dropping the slab on the floor won't open it, e.g.
Lance.

Goldminers

I will add that I did not even notice my PCGS holder was not properly sealed together when I opened the mail and looked at them all together the first time. In my case it was just one unsealed of several that seemed just fine as I also focused on the label accuracy more than the slab.

It stayed together in the mail even in the rattly blue PCGS plastic box. Only when I took it out to transfer to a different box did I notice it was loose feeling, and then put it on a soft surface and pulled a little on one side and it opened right up.

Also, when I taped it back together to send in for sealing, I noticed that there is not really any snap together feel, it seems to be all sealed by high pressure, something like 20,000 hz high frequency "sound" or 20,000 vibrations a second" which sort of melt the two slabs together as it heats the molecules together, so basically, they become nearly 100% sealed from the environment.

At least this is what I have heard.

streeter

This thread isn't doing you any good. Just sayin.

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MFeld

@jmlanzaf said:

I don't believe the entire story without pictures. Slabs failing to seal is a rare event. It is hard to imagine multiple slabs in the same submission.

I feel like I may have accidentally wandered under a bridge.

I believe it. If a holder in a particular order isn’t sealed, it’s not much of a stretch to imagine that others from the same order aren’t, either.

When I graded at NGC, I also helped with quality control. Before orders were shipped, I examined many of them. I checked the grading labels to be sure the printed information was correct and looked at the coins, sometimes making recommendations that they be considered for higher or lower grades. I also pulled on/twisted the holders, to be certain that they were sonically sealed. Every once in a while a coin or an entire order hadn’t been sealed, before being brought to me. In those instances, I had the coins returned to the sealing team and I checked the holders again, afterwards.

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Oldhoopster

PCGS has the responsibility to make it right. That would be fixing it with no out of pocket costs. Mistakes happen.

My interpretation of what I've read is that the OP expects PCGS to compensate him beyond the returned shipping costs. While it might be nice to get something extra, going into it with the "I was victimized, give me free stuff" mindset is wrong IMO. It sounds like you're trying to get a payout by winning the "mistake lottery".

Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the way the OP comes across to me. Just my opinion.

ifthevamzarockin

"I'd consider my submission fees a small price to pay for such an embarrassing and doubt-inspiring mistake."

It's my opinion you have an unreasonable expectation for the solution to your customer service problem.

The way you keep bringing up a refund of grading fees makes it appear like you are trying to get something for free.

MFeld

@unimpossible said:

@gumby1234 said:
" and my entire weekend of work is now cancelled (I sell coins, btw)" So one submission of coins that came back not sealed keeps you from working for the weekend? Maybe no work for months if you have to send them back to be resealed before you can work again.

This was my only submission for the week, so they were the only coins that I had to prepare for sale. I usually get one or two submissions back a week, so your thoughtful concern about me out of work for months can be assuaged. Thanks for the question!

If your entire weekend of work is now cancelled, it sounds as if the order was very large.

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MFeld

@unimpossible said:

@MFeld said:

@unimpossible said:

@Catbert said:
You asked for opinions and feedback. We have different perspectives. That's okay. I gave you my interpretation based upon the information you shared. I said that maybe you look at things in a way that doesn't appeal to me. Maybe you don't, but based upon your interaction in the example that @winesteven provided, I suspect you seek to take advantage of the situation. So be it.

@DoubleDown If by "take advantage of" you mean "not lose money because of", then yes, I do. Every day that these coins don't sell costs me money, and it's not because of an act of God. We're talking about a service that I paid for and clearly didn't receive due to multiple people's inability to do their job properly. You are correct that we have different perspectives, and that's great because that's what I came here for so I could make an informed decision. Your perspective just happens to be a particularly uninformed one, from my perspective. It's a rich tapestry.

Would you feel similarly if/when an order takes longer than you expect, based on posted estimated turnaround times? That wouldn’t be “an act of God”, either, and based on what you posted, that would cost you money, as well.

Nope, because that's a cost that I accepted and agreed to pay. For the record, this submission was accepted by PCGS on March 8 and I got it back yesterday, so it took 78 business business days. That's 18 days (or 30%) longer than their estimated turnaround at the time of submission. You'll note that I have not complained about this delay, nor will I. I only mention it now because your post implies that I would seek compensation for even the slightest slight. I would not.

I wasn’t implying that you’d seek compensation for even the slightest slight. I wanted to better understand your basis for possibly seeking compensation.