@DelawareDoons said:
Seeing the coin was originally in a details holder, I'd like to change my vote to "No."
Ditto, although I do not wish to condemn the OP for sending it back. If I bought a details coin knowing it would be dicey, I'd feel a greater responsibility to keep it and not return it.
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
So many of you act like it was an auction. It was a Buy it now with a 30 day return privilege.
A question...at what point does a picture need to be misleading to the point of being an item not as described? I've seen many here bash sellers for much more trivial discrepancies than the difference between the images in the listing and the actual coin!
So many of you act like it was an auction. It was a Buy it now with a 30 day return privilege.
A question...at what point does a picture need to be misleading to the point of being an item not as described? I've seen many here bash sellers for much more trivial discrepancies than the difference between the images in the listing and the actual coin!
It was in a cleaned holder. And, SURPRISE!, it is cleaned. Strikes me as being EXACTLY as described.
You asked what we would do. We told you. You told us we were wrong. I'm really not sure how we can be wrong about what we would do.
Why do we have to explain our opinions? Just sit back and enjoy being ratioed.
You bought a cleaned coin and complained that it looked too cleaned, with no way of discerning from those dark photos.
Next time change the poll answers to “yes” and “also yes but in red”.
So many of you act like it was an auction. It was a Buy it now with a 30 day return privilege.
A question...at what point does a picture need to be misleading to the point of being an item not as described? I've seen many here bash sellers for much more trivial discrepancies than the difference between the images in the listing and the actual coin!
It was in a cleaned holder. And, SURPRISE!, it is cleaned. Strikes me as being EXACTLY as described.
You asked what we would do. We told you. You told us we were wrong. I'm really not sure how we can be wrong about what we would do.
Yeah you can buy a greysheet coin from me and I will ship you a bluesheet coin. By your logic you would be a bad boy if you returned it to me!
@clarkbar04 said:
Auction or BIN has zero weight to me.
Why do we have to explain our opinions? Just sit back and enjoy being ratioed.
You bought a cleaned coin and complained that it looked too cleaned, with no way of discerning from those dark photos.
Next time change the poll answers to “yes” and “also yes but in red”.
LOL! Those were not dark photos! The darkness is due to the polishing and how the light refracts from it. PCGS should have labeled it Polished! I can make many MS 60 coins look like a 65 with some manipulation, don't think I could make a 65 look like a 60 though!
@skier07 said:
For the record, I’ve returned one coin since I began buying coins on eBay 25 years ago so I’m not a frequent abuser. GC even offers up to I think one return. I’ve had two people return coins to me as an eBay seller. When I’m selling a coin on eBay I make it very clear that buyers have a 14 day return privilege no questions asked. The OP bought the coin, didn’t like it (who cares why), the seller has a return privilege, and he’s returning it. What’s the big deal? Returns are part of every business model especially with a eBay store.
If you really want to know “what’s the big deal?”, you should ask the OP. He’s the one who started a thread with a poll and asked “Would you return this coin.”. So not surprisingly, a number of (including you) replied, with our opinions.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@skier07 said:
For the record, I’ve returned one coin since I began buying coins on eBay 25 years ago so I’m not a frequent abuser. GC even offers up to I think one return. I’ve had two people return coins to me as an eBay seller. When I’m selling a coin on eBay I make it very clear that buyers have a 14 day return privilege no questions asked. The OP bought the coin, didn’t like it (who cares why), the seller has a return privilege, and he’s returning it. What’s the big deal? Returns are part of every business model especially with a eBay store.
If you really want to know “what’s the big deal?”, you should ask the OP. He’s the one who started a thread with a poll and asked “Would you return this coin.”. So not surprisingly, a number of (including you) replied, with our opinions.
I think there has been some revealing attributes to some of the members here. So I would like to ask you again now that this has been thoroughly discussed. You have seen the pictures from the listing and the true view. The coin looks like the pictures I posted and is polished which I don't have the photographic skills to capture. The coin is white and has no toning. So do you really think someone should even think twice about returning this coin if it is absolutely not as pictured or what was expected?
I do have a knack for stirring up the hornets nest here!
PS if it was $100 or so bucks I wouldn't return it! But for close to a Grand! H Yeah! It almost strikes me as many are buddies with the seller or have a vested interest in the coin from the responses and the reactions I've seen in this thread. I've seen others querries about purchases that weren't near as far off the mark of accuracy from this one and everyone screams return that coin, do a snad if you have to!
So many of you act like it was an auction. It was a Buy it now with a 30 day return privilege.
A question...at what point does a picture need to be misleading to the point of being an item not as described? I've seen many here bash sellers for much more trivial discrepancies than the difference between the images in the listing and the actual coin!
LOL! Those were not dark photos! The darkness is due to the polishing and how the light refracts from it. PCGS should have labeled it Polished! I can make many MS 60 coins look like a 65 with some manipulation, don't think I could make a 65 look like a 60 though!
>
Apparently, you don’t know what “closing statements” are. 😉 You’re out of order.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
So many of you act like it was an auction. It was a Buy it now with a 30 day return privilege.
A question...at what point does a picture need to be misleading to the point of being an item not as described? I've seen many here bash sellers for much more trivial discrepancies than the difference between the images in the listing and the actual coin!
LOL! Those were not dark photos! The darkness is due to the polishing and how the light refracts from it. PCGS should have labeled it Polished! I can make many MS 60 coins look like a 65 with some manipulation, don't think I could make a 65 look like a 60 though!
>
Apparently, you don’t know what “closing statements” are. 😉 You’re out of order.
@amwldcoin said:
It almost strikes me as many are buddies with the seller or have a vested interest in the coin from the responses and the reactions I've seen in this thread.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're still not trying to get you.
@skier07 said:
For the record, I’ve returned one coin since I began buying coins on eBay 25 years ago so I’m not a frequent abuser. GC even offers up to I think one return. I’ve had two people return coins to me as an eBay seller. When I’m selling a coin on eBay I make it very clear that buyers have a 14 day return privilege no questions asked. The OP bought the coin, didn’t like it (who cares why), the seller has a return privilege, and he’s returning it. What’s the big deal? Returns are part of every business model especially with a eBay store.
If you really want to know “what’s the big deal?”, you should ask the OP. He’s the one who started a thread with a poll and asked “Would you return this coin.”. So not surprisingly, a number of (including you) replied, with our opinions.
I think there has been some revealing attributes to some of the members here. So I would like to ask you again now that this has been thoroughly discussed. You have seen the pictures from the listing and the true view. The coin looks like the pictures I posted and is polished which I don't have the photographic skills to capture. The coin is white and has no toning. So do you really think someone should even think twice about returning this coin if it is absolutely not as pictured or what was expected?
I do have a knack for stirring up the hornets nest here!
PS if it was $100 or so bucks I wouldn't return it! But for close to a Grand! H Yeah! It almost strikes me as many are buddies with the seller or have a vested interest in the coin from the responses and the reactions I've seen in this thread. I've seen others querries about purchases that weren't near as far off the mark of accuracy from this one and everyone screams return that coin, do a snad if you have to!
As I already posted, I would have tried to contact the seller (before bidding or buying) and asked how the images differed from the appearance of the coin. But you chose not to do that, because you thought someone else might buy it, first. So yes, I think someone - you - should think twice, before returning the coin and not return it.
I have no idea who the seller is and bet that many or most others who also disagreed with you, don’t know or care who he is, either. That has nothing to do with our opinions and principles.
I believe that far more times than not, posters side with fellow forum member/buyers or sellers over an unknown person on the other side of a transaction. The fact that so many of us disagreed with you in this case, is telling. If you can’t help being defensive regarding opposing viewpoints, it would be better not to ask in the first place.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I want to clarify that I would not return the coin.
But if I were the seller, and offered 30 day free returns, I would not grouse about the return - in the long run the FVF savings still far outweigh the cost of free returns if you have decent pictures and accurate descriptions. Over the past 2 years I have had maybe 4 returns (out of about 500 transactions) and 2 of those were something I missed. Frankly, at the end of the day, I want a customer to be happy with a coin and not stick him/her with an unwanted coin.
@skier07 said:
For the record, I’ve returned one coin since I began buying coins on eBay 25 years ago so I’m not a frequent abuser. GC even offers up to I think one return. I’ve had two people return coins to me as an eBay seller. When I’m selling a coin on eBay I make it very clear that buyers have a 14 day return privilege no questions asked. The OP bought the coin, didn’t like it (who cares why), the seller has a return privilege, and he’s returning it. What’s the big deal? Returns are part of every business model especially with a eBay store.
If you really want to know “what’s the big deal?”, you should ask the OP. He’s the one who started a thread with a poll and asked “Would you return this coin.”. So not surprisingly, a number of (including you) replied, with our opinions.
I think there has been some revealing attributes to some of the members here. So I would like to ask you again now that this has been thoroughly discussed. You have seen the pictures from the listing and the true view. The coin looks like the pictures I posted and is polished which I don't have the photographic skills to capture. The coin is white and has no toning. So do you really think someone should even think twice about returning this coin if it is absolutely not as pictured or what was expected?
I do have a knack for stirring up the hornets nest here!
PS if it was $100 or so bucks I wouldn't return it! But for close to a Grand! H Yeah! It almost strikes me as many are buddies with the seller or have a vested interest in the coin from the responses and the reactions I've seen in this thread. I've seen others querries about purchases that weren't near as far off the mark of accuracy from this one and everyone screams return that coin, do a snad if you have to!
As I already posted, I would have tried to contact the seller (before bidding or buying) and asked how the images differed from the appearance of the coin. But you chose not to do that, because you thought someone else might buy it, first. So yes, I think someone - you - should think twice, before returning the coin and not return it.
I have no idea who the seller is and bet that many or most others who also disagreed with you, don’t know or care who he is, either. That has nothing to do with our opinions and principles.
I believe that far more times than not, posters side with fellow forum member/buyers or sellers over an unknown person on the other side of a transaction. The fact that so many of us disagreed with you in this case, is telling. If you can’t help being defensive regarding opposing viewpoints, it would be better not to ask in the first place.
But if nothing, I think this has been an educational thread. The one thing for me, after over 20 years of photographing coins, is what happens when you try to take a picture of a polished coin. I partially blame PCGS as there would have been no way I would have considered this coin if it had been labeled as polished. This is the 1st time I ever tried to take a picture of a polished coin. The only thing I can get right is the actual color of the coin and the details. The surfaces are impossible for me to accurately capture. I spent 30 minutes or more trying different lighting, angles etc. and couldn't capture the polished surfaces.
@jmlanzaf said:
It was in a cleaned holder. And, SURPRISE!, it is cleaned. Strikes me as being EXACTLY as described.
By that logic, why even bother with non-stock photos at all? As long as what the buyer gets matches up with the holder, they should be happy with it?
By YOUR logic, why look at pictures at all? Just buy it and your it is you don't like it. IT WAS LABELED as cleaned. No one should be surprised that it is cleaned.
@skier07 said:
For the record, I’ve returned one coin since I began buying coins on eBay 25 years ago so I’m not a frequent abuser. GC even offers up to I think one return. I’ve had two people return coins to me as an eBay seller. When I’m selling a coin on eBay I make it very clear that buyers have a 14 day return privilege no questions asked. The OP bought the coin, didn’t like it (who cares why), the seller has a return privilege, and he’s returning it. What’s the big deal? Returns are part of every business model especially with a eBay store.
If you really want to know “what’s the big deal?”, you should ask the OP. He’s the one who started a thread with a poll and asked “Would you return this coin.”. So not surprisingly, a number of (including you) replied, with our opinions.
I think there has been some revealing attributes to some of the members here. So I would like to ask you again now that this has been thoroughly discussed. You have seen the pictures from the listing and the true view. The coin looks like the pictures I posted and is polished which I don't have the photographic skills to capture. The coin is white and has no toning. So do you really think someone should even think twice about returning this coin if it is absolutely not as pictured or what was expected?
I do have a knack for stirring up the hornets nest here!
PS if it was $100 or so bucks I wouldn't return it! But for close to a Grand! H Yeah! It almost strikes me as many are buddies with the seller or have a vested interest in the coin from the responses and the reactions I've seen in this thread. I've seen others querries about purchases that weren't near as far off the mark of accuracy from this one and everyone screams return that coin, do a snad if you have to!
As I already posted, I would have tried to contact the seller (before bidding or buying) and asked how the images differed from the appearance of the coin. But you chose not to do that, because you thought someone else might buy it, first. So yes, I think someone - you - should think twice, before returning the coin and not return it.
I have no idea who the seller is and bet that many or most others who also disagreed with you, don’t know or care who he is, either. That has nothing to do with our opinions and principles.
I believe that far more times than not, posters side with fellow forum member/buyers or sellers over an unknown person on the other side of a transaction. The fact that so many of us disagreed with you in this case, is telling. If you can’t help being defensive regarding opposing viewpoints, it would be better not to ask in the first place.
I'm not sure we even disagreed. The question was what we would have done. How could it be wrong that I wouldn't return it?
@skier07 said:
For the record, I’ve returned one coin since I began buying coins on eBay 25 years ago so I’m not a frequent abuser. GC even offers up to I think one return. I’ve had two people return coins to me as an eBay seller. When I’m selling a coin on eBay I make it very clear that buyers have a 14 day return privilege no questions asked. The OP bought the coin, didn’t like it (who cares why), the seller has a return privilege, and he’s returning it. What’s the big deal? Returns are part of every business model especially with a eBay store.
If you really want to know “what’s the big deal?”, you should ask the OP. He’s the one who started a thread with a poll and asked “Would you return this coin.”. So not surprisingly, a number of (including you) replied, with our opinions.
I think there has been some revealing attributes to some of the members here. So I would like to ask you again now that this has been thoroughly discussed. You have seen the pictures from the listing and the true view. The coin looks like the pictures I posted and is polished which I don't have the photographic skills to capture. The coin is white and has no toning. So do you really think someone should even think twice about returning this coin if it is absolutely not as pictured or what was expected?
I do have a knack for stirring up the hornets nest here!
PS if it was $100 or so bucks I wouldn't return it! But for close to a Grand! H Yeah! It almost strikes me as many are buddies with the seller or have a vested interest in the coin from the responses and the reactions I've seen in this thread. I've seen others querries about purchases that weren't near as far off the mark of accuracy from this one and everyone screams return that coin, do a snad if you have to!
As I already posted, I would have tried to contact the seller (before bidding or buying) and asked how the images differed from the appearance of the coin. But you chose not to do that, because you thought someone else might buy it, first. So yes, I think someone - you - should think twice, before returning the coin and not return it.
I have no idea who the seller is and bet that many or most others who also disagreed with you, don’t know or care who he is, either. That has nothing to do with our opinions and principles.
I believe that far more times than not, posters side with fellow forum member/buyers or sellers over an unknown person on the other side of a transaction. The fact that so many of us disagreed with you in this case, is telling. If you can’t help being defensive regarding opposing viewpoints, it would be better not to ask in the first place.
I'm not sure we even disagreed. The question was what we would have done. How could it be wrong that I wouldn't return it?
It could be wrong if you wouldn’t return it and someone else would.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
But if nothing, I think this has been an educational thread. The one thing for me, after over 20 years of photographing coins, is what happens when you try to take a picture of a polished coin. I partially blame PCGS as there would have been no way I would have considered this coin if it had been labeled as polished. This is the 1st time I ever tried to take a picture of a polished coin. The only thing I can get right is the actual color of the coin and the details. The surfaces are impossible for me to accurately capture. I spent 30 minutes or more trying different lighting, angles etc. and couldn't capture the polished surfaces.
Serious question, not snark.
Does PCGS have a polished "no grade"?
All I could find on the 'PCGS Grading Standards' webpage was "92 - Cleaning". Link
If I interpret the description correctly, this "no grade" covers a wide range of cleaning, from faint hairlines to grossly polished.
But if nothing, I think this has been an educational thread. The one thing for me, after over 20 years of photographing coins, is what happens when you try to take a picture of a polished coin. I partially blame PCGS as there would have been no way I would have considered this coin if it had been labeled as polished. This is the 1st time I ever tried to take a picture of a polished coin. The only thing I can get right is the actual color of the coin and the details. The surfaces are impossible for me to accurately capture. I spent 30 minutes or more trying different lighting, angles etc. and couldn't capture the polished surfaces.
Serious question, not snark.
Does PCGS have a polished "no grade"?
All I could find on the 'PCGS Grading Standards' webpage was "92 - Cleaning". Link
If I interpret the description correctly, this "no grade" covers a wide range of cleaning, from faint hairlines to grossly polished.
They do. Here’s an example:
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Did a quick internet search and found examples of what appear to be fairly recently graded coins labeled "polished" and "harshly cleaned" that used the "92" designation. It would be interesting to learn how PCGS makes a decision as to how to label these coins.
But if nothing, I think this has been an educational thread. The one thing for me, after over 20 years of photographing coins, is what happens when you try to take a picture of a polished coin. I partially blame PCGS as there would have been no way I would have considered this coin if it had been labeled as polished. This is the 1st time I ever tried to take a picture of a polished coin. The only thing I can get right is the actual color of the coin and the details. The surfaces are impossible for me to accurately capture. I spent 30 minutes or more trying different lighting, angles etc. and couldn't capture the polished surfaces.
Serious question, not snark.
Does PCGS have a polished "no grade"?
All I could find on the 'PCGS Grading Standards' webpage was "92 - Cleaning". Link
If I interpret the description correctly, this "no grade" covers a wide range of cleaning, from faint hairlines to grossly polished.
They do. Here’s an example:
The actual polishing and associated polishing lines are more obvious in that coin. I really don't see polish lines in the OPs photos. So I can see why they would have opted for cleaned.
I offer 14 day returns for any reason on all my eBay listings except 69/70 certified moderns. It doesn’t bother me if someone returns a coin - I want the buyer to be happy and I want positive feedback. I’d also rather just offer returns than get a not as described return.
I have returned one coin to GC and one to Northeast in my collecting career - it appears that might make me a bad person! I’ve also gone out my way to do as much repeat business as possible with both as both handled it graciously.
I see no problem returning a coin within the return policy.
But if nothing, I think this has been an educational thread. The one thing for me, after over 20 years of photographing coins, is what happens when you try to take a picture of a polished coin. I partially blame PCGS as there would have been no way I would have considered this coin if it had been labeled as polished. This is the 1st time I ever tried to take a picture of a polished coin. The only thing I can get right is the actual color of the coin and the details. The surfaces are impossible for me to accurately capture. I spent 30 minutes or more trying different lighting, angles etc. and couldn't capture the polished surfaces.
Serious question, not snark.
Does PCGS have a polished "no grade"?
All I could find on the 'PCGS Grading Standards' webpage was "92 - Cleaning". Link
If I interpret the description correctly, this "no grade" covers a wide range of cleaning, from faint hairlines to grossly polished.
They do. Here’s an example:
The actual polishing and associated polishing lines are more obvious in that coin. I really don't see polish lines in the OPs photos. So I can see why they would have opted for cleaned.
Read my trials of trying the take a picture of the coin. If you don't think I know a polished coin when I see one...well that's another matter. BTW Polishing does not necessarily hairline a coin (think getting after a coin with a silver polish cloth)...it is more like a wizzing but not as severe.
I’ve now become curious and contemplative.
I wonder if the poll had been “should I return this coin” the vast majority would have responded with “if you don’t like it and it’s a big enough deal, just return it…but I wouldn’t.”
I also think there’s a really small number of people on this board that are buying $900 details coins and hoping for a certain look once it shows up, so we really might be having trouble putting ourselves in the OPs shoes. My thoughts and personal opinions could be wrong, though .
But if nothing, I think this has been an educational thread. The one thing for me, after over 20 years of photographing coins, is what happens when you try to take a picture of a polished coin. I partially blame PCGS as there would have been no way I would have considered this coin if it had been labeled as polished. This is the 1st time I ever tried to take a picture of a polished coin. The only thing I can get right is the actual color of the coin and the details. The surfaces are impossible for me to accurately capture. I spent 30 minutes or more trying different lighting, angles etc. and couldn't capture the polished surfaces.
Serious question, not snark.
Does PCGS have a polished "no grade"?
All I could find on the 'PCGS Grading Standards' webpage was "92 - Cleaning". Link
If I interpret the description correctly, this "no grade" covers a wide range of cleaning, from faint hairlines to grossly polished.
They do. Here’s an example:
The actual polishing and associated polishing lines are more obvious in that coin. I really don't see polish lines in the OPs photos. So I can see why they would have opted for cleaned.
Read my trials of trying the take a picture of the coin. If you don't think I know a polished coin when I see one...well that's another matter. BTW Polishing does not necessarily hairline a coin (think getting after a coin with a silver polish cloth)...it is more like a wizzing but not as severe.
I'm referring to the distinction between cleaning and polishing. A lot of "cleaned" coins have been rubbed.
But if nothing, I think this has been an educational thread. The one thing for me, after over 20 years of photographing coins, is what happens when you try to take a picture of a polished coin. I partially blame PCGS as there would have been no way I would have considered this coin if it had been labeled as polished. This is the 1st time I ever tried to take a picture of a polished coin. The only thing I can get right is the actual color of the coin and the details. The surfaces are impossible for me to accurately capture. I spent 30 minutes or more trying different lighting, angles etc. and couldn't capture the polished surfaces.
Serious question, not snark.
Does PCGS have a polished "no grade"?
All I could find on the 'PCGS Grading Standards' webpage was "92 - Cleaning". Link
If I interpret the description correctly, this "no grade" covers a wide range of cleaning, from faint hairlines to grossly polished.
They do. Here’s an example:
The actual polishing and associated polishing lines are more obvious in that coin. I really don't see polish lines in the OPs photos. So I can see why they would have opted for cleaned.
Read my trials of trying the take a picture of the coin. If you don't think I know a polished coin when I see one...well that's another matter. BTW Polishing does not necessarily hairline a coin (think getting after a coin with a silver polish cloth)...it is more like a wizzing but not as severe.
I'm referring to the distinction between cleaning and polishing. A lot of "cleaned" coins have been rubbed.
Polishing is more on a microscopic level. Take your rubbed comment and do it hundreds if not thousands of times. I think that's why they are so hard to take pictures of. The entire surface of the coin is affected....that's why they usually don't exhibit hairlines. And to be honest, I can't recall seeing a coin that was polished with hairlines visible. Perhaps those that do were cleaned after they were polished.
Edit to add....yes, polishing is a form of cleaning, but on a different level than the over dipping, baking soda type of cleaning. It's micro-abrasive compared to what most consider typical cleaning.
But if nothing, I think this has been an educational thread. The one thing for me, after over 20 years of photographing coins, is what happens when you try to take a picture of a polished coin. I partially blame PCGS as there would have been no way I would have considered this coin if it had been labeled as polished. This is the 1st time I ever tried to take a picture of a polished coin. The only thing I can get right is the actual color of the coin and the details. The surfaces are impossible for me to accurately capture. I spent 30 minutes or more trying different lighting, angles etc. and couldn't capture the polished surfaces.
Serious question, not snark.
Does PCGS have a polished "no grade"?
All I could find on the 'PCGS Grading Standards' webpage was "92 - Cleaning". Link
If I interpret the description correctly, this "no grade" covers a wide range of cleaning, from faint hairlines to grossly polished.
They do. Here’s an example:
The actual polishing and associated polishing lines are more obvious in that coin. I really don't see polish lines in the OPs photos. So I can see why they would have opted for cleaned.
Read my trials of trying the take a picture of the coin. If you don't think I know a polished coin when I see one...well that's another matter. BTW Polishing does not necessarily hairline a coin (think getting after a coin with a silver polish cloth)...it is more like a wizzing but not as severe.
I'm referring to the distinction between cleaning and polishing. A lot of "cleaned" coins have been rubbed.
Polishing is more on a microscopic level. Take your rubbed comment and do it hundreds if not thousands of times. I think that's why they are so hard to take pictures of. The entire surface of the coin is affected....that's why they usually don't exhibit hairlines. And to be honest, I can't recall seeing a coin that was polished with hairlines visible. Perhaps those that do were cleaned after they were polished.
Edit to add....yes, polishing is a form of cleaning, but on a different level than the over dipping, baking soda type of cleaning. It's micro-abrasive compared to what most consider typical cleaning.
Polishing comes in many forms depending on the particle size of the abrasive. All polished coins have hairlines, it just depends on the fineness of the lines.
But if nothing, I think this has been an educational thread. The one thing for me, after over 20 years of photographing coins, is what happens when you try to take a picture of a polished coin. I partially blame PCGS as there would have been no way I would have considered this coin if it had been labeled as polished. This is the 1st time I ever tried to take a picture of a polished coin. The only thing I can get right is the actual color of the coin and the details. The surfaces are impossible for me to accurately capture. I spent 30 minutes or more trying different lighting, angles etc. and couldn't capture the polished surfaces.
Serious question, not snark.
Does PCGS have a polished "no grade"?
All I could find on the 'PCGS Grading Standards' webpage was "92 - Cleaning". Link
If I interpret the description correctly, this "no grade" covers a wide range of cleaning, from faint hairlines to grossly polished.
They do. Here’s an example:
The actual polishing and associated polishing lines are more obvious in that coin. I really don't see polish lines in the OPs photos. So I can see why they would have opted for cleaned.
Read my trials of trying the take a picture of the coin. If you don't think I know a polished coin when I see one...well that's another matter. BTW Polishing does not necessarily hairline a coin (think getting after a coin with a silver polish cloth)...it is more like a wizzing but not as severe.
I'm referring to the distinction between cleaning and polishing. A lot of "cleaned" coins have been rubbed.
Polishing is more on a microscopic level. Take your rubbed comment and do it hundreds if not thousands of times. I think that's why they are so hard to take pictures of. The entire surface of the coin is affected....that's why they usually don't exhibit hairlines. And to be honest, I can't recall seeing a coin that was polished with hairlines visible. Perhaps those that do were cleaned after they were polished.
Edit to add....yes, polishing is a form of cleaning, but on a different level than the over dipping, baking soda type of cleaning. It's micro-abrasive compared to what most consider typical cleaning.
Polishing comes in many forms depending on the particle size of the abrasive. All polished coins have hairlines, it just depends on the fineness of the lines.
Well let's just say cleaned coins have visible hairlines without the aide of a microscope!
But if nothing, I think this has been an educational thread. The one thing for me, after over 20 years of photographing coins, is what happens when you try to take a picture of a polished coin. I partially blame PCGS as there would have been no way I would have considered this coin if it had been labeled as polished. This is the 1st time I ever tried to take a picture of a polished coin. The only thing I can get right is the actual color of the coin and the details. The surfaces are impossible for me to accurately capture. I spent 30 minutes or more trying different lighting, angles etc. and couldn't capture the polished surfaces.
Serious question, not snark.
Does PCGS have a polished "no grade"?
All I could find on the 'PCGS Grading Standards' webpage was "92 - Cleaning". Link
If I interpret the description correctly, this "no grade" covers a wide range of cleaning, from faint hairlines to grossly polished.
They do. Here’s an example:
The actual polishing and associated polishing lines are more obvious in that coin. I really don't see polish lines in the OPs photos. So I can see why they would have opted for cleaned.
Read my trials of trying the take a picture of the coin. If you don't think I know a polished coin when I see one...well that's another matter. BTW Polishing does not necessarily hairline a coin (think getting after a coin with a silver polish cloth)...it is more like a wizzing but not as severe.
I'm referring to the distinction between cleaning and polishing. A lot of "cleaned" coins have been rubbed.
Polishing is more on a microscopic level. Take your rubbed comment and do it hundreds if not thousands of times. I think that's why they are so hard to take pictures of. The entire surface of the coin is affected....that's why they usually don't exhibit hairlines. And to be honest, I can't recall seeing a coin that was polished with hairlines visible. Perhaps those that do were cleaned after they were polished.
Edit to add....yes, polishing is a form of cleaning, but on a different level than the over dipping, baking soda type of cleaning. It's micro-abrasive compared to what most consider typical cleaning.
Polishing comes in many forms depending on the particle size of the abrasive. All polished coins have hairlines, it just depends on the fineness of the lines.
Well let's just say cleaned coins have visible hairlines without the aide of a microscope!
A hypothetical question:
What if it was a discovery piece (for example, it has a "fancy 6" date that was previously unknown to exist)? What if the actual value was multiples of that which was paid?
Would the buyer be morally obligated to forward a percentage of the newfound wealth to the original seller?
Your unhappy with the coin, so return it. Buying on eBay from photos, I always felt that I had a right to see the coin in hand to make my final decision.
Polishing is more on a microscopic level. Take your rubbed comment and do it hundreds if not thousands of times. I think that's why they are so hard to take pictures of. The entire surface of the coin is affected....that's why they usually don't exhibit hairlines. And to be honest, I can't recall seeing a coin that was polished with hairlines visible. Perhaps those that do were cleaned after they were polished.
Edit to add....yes, polishing is a form of cleaning, but on a different level than the over dipping, baking soda type of cleaning. It's micro-abrasive compared to what most consider typical cleaning.
Years ago a boyhood friend borrowed his dentist's sonic cleaning machine to "enhance" his coins. Would the results have been polishing?
@slider23 said:
Your unhappy with the coin, so return it. Buying on eBay from photos, I always felt that I had a right to see the coin in hand to make my final decision.
While it wasn’t the case here, what if a seller has a stated “no returns” policy?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@slider23 said:
Your unhappy with the coin, so return it. Buying on eBay from photos, I always felt that I had a right to see the coin in hand to make my final decision.
While it wasn’t the case here, what if a seller has a stated “no returns” policy?
Then the buyer is out of luck, unless there is some kind of egregious error like receiving the wrong coin or a counterfeit. If you buy something on a “no returns” policy, you are assuming all of the risk.
@slider23 said:
Your unhappy with the coin, so return it. Buying on eBay from photos, I always felt that I had a right to see the coin in hand to make my final decision.
While it wasn’t the case here, what if a seller has a stated “no returns” policy?
Then the buyer is out of luck, unless there is some kind of egregious error like receiving the wrong coin or a counterfeit. If you buy something on a “no returns” policy, you are assuming all of the risk.
I can probably 99.9% guarantee you ebay would allow a SNAD on this coin due to the major differences in the pictures.
@slider23 said:
Your unhappy with the coin, so return it. Buying on eBay from photos, I always felt that I had a right to see the coin in hand to make my final decision.
While it wasn’t the case here, what if a seller has a stated “no returns” policy?
Then the buyer is out of luck, unless there is some kind of egregious error like receiving the wrong coin or a counterfeit. If you buy something on a “no returns” policy, you are assuming all of the risk.
I can probably 99.9% guarantee you ebay would allow a SNAD on this coin due to the major differences in the pictures.
That crosses a line for me. Buying a coin knowing that there is a no return policy implies the buyer is assuming the risk of variance from the photos.
@slider23 said:
Your unhappy with the coin, so return it. Buying on eBay from photos, I always felt that I had a right to see the coin in hand to make my final decision.
While it wasn’t the case here, what if a seller has a stated “no returns” policy?
If the coin is in a TPG holder, I would not return the coin. If the coin is raw and the photos are deceptive, the coin is going back. I try to avoid the sellers on eBay that state "no returns".
If I thought I may not be happy with it after reviewing the listing images (which appear to show the "shine" on the surfaces) versus the PCGS images I wouldn't have bought it.
I have never had a PCGS image match my coin in hand- just use them to verify the coin in the holder is the same one when images are available on line.
Comments
Ditto, although I do not wish to condemn the OP for sending it back. If I bought a details coin knowing it would be dicey, I'd feel a greater responsibility to keep it and not return it.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
2 points I want to make.
So many of you act like it was an auction. It was a Buy it now with a 30 day return privilege.
A question...at what point does a picture need to be misleading to the point of being an item not as described? I've seen many here bash sellers for much more trivial discrepancies than the difference between the images in the listing and the actual coin!
It was in a cleaned holder. And, SURPRISE!, it is cleaned. Strikes me as being EXACTLY as described.
You asked what we would do. We told you. You told us we were wrong. I'm really not sure how we can be wrong about what we would do.
Auction or BIN has zero weight to me.
Why do we have to explain our opinions? Just sit back and enjoy being ratioed.
You bought a cleaned coin and complained that it looked too cleaned, with no way of discerning from those dark photos.
Next time change the poll answers to “yes” and “also yes but in red”.
By that logic, why even bother with non-stock photos at all? As long as what the buyer gets matches up with the holder, they should be happy with it?
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
Yeah you can buy a greysheet coin from me and I will ship you a bluesheet coin. By your logic you would be a bad boy if you returned it to me!
LOL! Those were not dark photos! The darkness is due to the polishing and how the light refracts from it. PCGS should have labeled it Polished! I can make many MS 60 coins look like a 65 with some manipulation, don't think I could make a 65 look like a 60 though!
If you really want to know “what’s the big deal?”, you should ask the OP. He’s the one who started a thread with a poll and asked “Would you return this coin.”. So not surprisingly, a number of (including you) replied, with our opinions.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I think there has been some revealing attributes to some of the members here. So I would like to ask you again now that this has been thoroughly discussed. You have seen the pictures from the listing and the true view. The coin looks like the pictures I posted and is polished which I don't have the photographic skills to capture. The coin is white and has no toning. So do you really think someone should even think twice about returning this coin if it is absolutely not as pictured or what was expected?
I do have a knack for stirring up the hornets nest here!
PS if it was $100 or so bucks I wouldn't return it! But for close to a Grand! H Yeah! It almost strikes me as many are buddies with the seller or have a vested interest in the coin from the responses and the reactions I've seen in this thread. I've seen others querries about purchases that weren't near as far off the mark of accuracy from this one and everyone screams return that coin, do a snad if you have to!
LOL! Those were not dark photos! The darkness is due to the polishing and how the light refracts from it. PCGS should have labeled it Polished! I can make many MS 60 coins look like a 65 with some manipulation, don't think I could make a 65 look like a 60 though!
>
Apparently, you don’t know what “closing statements” are. 😉 You’re out of order.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I slept on it and and got reinvigorated!
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're still not trying to get you.
I would be curious as to @PCGSPhoto opinions on the discrepancies from the true view to the in hand look.
As I already posted, I would have tried to contact the seller (before bidding or buying) and asked how the images differed from the appearance of the coin. But you chose not to do that, because you thought someone else might buy it, first. So yes, I think someone - you - should think twice, before returning the coin and not return it.
I have no idea who the seller is and bet that many or most others who also disagreed with you, don’t know or care who he is, either. That has nothing to do with our opinions and principles.
I believe that far more times than not, posters side with fellow forum member/buyers or sellers over an unknown person on the other side of a transaction. The fact that so many of us disagreed with you in this case, is telling. If you can’t help being defensive regarding opposing viewpoints, it would be better not to ask in the first place.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I want to clarify that I would not return the coin.
But if I were the seller, and offered 30 day free returns, I would not grouse about the return - in the long run the FVF savings still far outweigh the cost of free returns if you have decent pictures and accurate descriptions. Over the past 2 years I have had maybe 4 returns (out of about 500 transactions) and 2 of those were something I missed. Frankly, at the end of the day, I want a customer to be happy with a coin and not stick him/her with an unwanted coin.
But if nothing, I think this has been an educational thread. The one thing for me, after over 20 years of photographing coins, is what happens when you try to take a picture of a polished coin. I partially blame PCGS as there would have been no way I would have considered this coin if it had been labeled as polished. This is the 1st time I ever tried to take a picture of a polished coin. The only thing I can get right is the actual color of the coin and the details. The surfaces are impossible for me to accurately capture. I spent 30 minutes or more trying different lighting, angles etc. and couldn't capture the polished surfaces.
By YOUR logic, why look at pictures at all? Just buy it and your it is you don't like it. IT WAS LABELED as cleaned. No one should be surprised that it is cleaned.
I'm not sure we even disagreed. The question was what we would have done. How could it be wrong that I wouldn't return it?
It could be wrong if you wouldn’t return it and someone else would.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Returning a coin in a details holder is fundamentally wrong, regardless of eBay policy or seller policy (which is eBay policy.)
As a seller, I would be magnanimous about it, but still upset. Makes no difference is it’s polished, cleaned, dipped, etc. Pix weren’t that bad.
Caveat emptor
I wouldn’t do it and I vote NO.
Serious question, not snark.
Does PCGS have a polished "no grade"?
All I could find on the 'PCGS Grading Standards' webpage was "92 - Cleaning". Link
If I interpret the description correctly, this "no grade" covers a wide range of cleaning, from faint hairlines to grossly polished.
PCGS should have labeled it Polished!
Just so I can understand this clearly. You basically feel the coin was misgraded?
It would be hard to blame PCGS for the grade if they explain that "Cleaning" includes "grossly polished".
They do. Here’s an example:
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
On the other hand, in addition to “cleaned”, they also designate some coins as “polished” and others as “harshly cleaned”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Interesting. Do you know if those are currently used designations or ones that have been used in the past and discontinued?
Sorry, I don’t know.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld,
Good info. Thanks for posting it.
Did a quick internet search and found examples of what appear to be fairly recently graded coins labeled "polished" and "harshly cleaned" that used the "92" designation. It would be interesting to learn how PCGS makes a decision as to how to label these coins.
No, he feels the picture was misleading. He thought it was a possible resubmission to straight grade and it turned out to actually be cleaned.
The actual polishing and associated polishing lines are more obvious in that coin. I really don't see polish lines in the OPs photos. So I can see why they would have opted for cleaned.
Not really, I hoped for that but expected it to be a toned coin....not a polished white coin!
I offer 14 day returns for any reason on all my eBay listings except 69/70 certified moderns. It doesn’t bother me if someone returns a coin - I want the buyer to be happy and I want positive feedback. I’d also rather just offer returns than get a not as described return.
I have returned one coin to GC and one to Northeast in my collecting career - it appears that might make me a bad person! I’ve also gone out my way to do as much repeat business as possible with both as both handled it graciously.
I see no problem returning a coin within the return policy.
anxiously awaiting the pitchforks
Read my trials of trying the take a picture of the coin. If you don't think I know a polished coin when I see one...well that's another matter. BTW Polishing does not necessarily hairline a coin (think getting after a coin with a silver polish cloth)...it is more like a wizzing but not as severe.
I’ve now become curious and contemplative.
.
I wonder if the poll had been “should I return this coin” the vast majority would have responded with “if you don’t like it and it’s a big enough deal, just return it…but I wouldn’t.”
I also think there’s a really small number of people on this board that are buying $900 details coins and hoping for a certain look once it shows up, so we really might be having trouble putting ourselves in the OPs shoes. My thoughts and personal opinions could be wrong, though
I'm only going by what you wrote
I'm referring to the distinction between cleaning and polishing. A lot of "cleaned" coins have been rubbed.
Polishing is more on a microscopic level. Take your rubbed comment and do it hundreds if not thousands of times. I think that's why they are so hard to take pictures of. The entire surface of the coin is affected....that's why they usually don't exhibit hairlines. And to be honest, I can't recall seeing a coin that was polished with hairlines visible. Perhaps those that do were cleaned after they were polished.
Edit to add....yes, polishing is a form of cleaning, but on a different level than the over dipping, baking soda type of cleaning. It's micro-abrasive compared to what most consider typical cleaning.
I'm only going by what you wrote> @amwldcoin said:
Polishing comes in many forms depending on the particle size of the abrasive. All polished coins have hairlines, it just depends on the fineness of the lines.
Well let's just say cleaned coins have visible hairlines without the aide of a microscope!
Sometimes
A hypothetical question:
What if it was a discovery piece (for example, it has a "fancy 6" date that was previously unknown to exist)? What if the actual value was multiples of that which was paid?
Would the buyer be morally obligated to forward a percentage of the newfound wealth to the original seller?
peacockcoins
Your unhappy with the coin, so return it. Buying on eBay from photos, I always felt that I had a right to see the coin in hand to make my final decision.
Years ago a boyhood friend borrowed his dentist's sonic cleaning machine to "enhance" his coins. Would the results have been polishing?
While it wasn’t the case here, what if a seller has a stated “no returns” policy?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Then the buyer is out of luck, unless there is some kind of egregious error like receiving the wrong coin or a counterfeit. If you buy something on a “no returns” policy, you are assuming all of the risk.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
I can probably 99.9% guarantee you ebay would allow a SNAD on this coin due to the major differences in the pictures.
That crosses a line for me. Buying a coin knowing that there is a no return policy implies the buyer is assuming the risk of variance from the photos.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
If the coin is in a TPG holder, I would not return the coin. If the coin is raw and the photos are deceptive, the coin is going back. I try to avoid the sellers on eBay that state "no returns".
If I thought I may not be happy with it after reviewing the listing images (which appear to show the "shine" on the surfaces) versus the PCGS images I wouldn't have bought it.
I have never had a PCGS image match my coin in hand- just use them to verify the coin in the holder is the same one when images are available on line.