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What if Tom Brady had played for the Detroit Lions?

doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 22,542 ✭✭✭✭✭

Let's say Tom Brady had been drafted by the Detroit Lions, could he have led them to a Super Bowl or multiple Super Bowls? What would this cursed franchise look like today if Brady had been their quarterback?

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  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,398 ✭✭✭✭✭

    He is a team culture changer. they would have won a Super Bowl with Brady.

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 29,361 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:
    He is a team culture changer. they would have won a Super Bowl with Brady.

    Agreed. I think even Hoodie might have won one with them ( maybe ) 😉

  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 22,542 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes, you can't help but feel sorry for Detroit's fighting Lions, losers since 1957, when Bobby Layne placed a curse on them, a curse that exists to this day.


  • coolstanleycoolstanley Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭

    No Super bowls. Horrible franchise.

    Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!

    Ignore list -Basebal21

  • dallasactuarydallasactuary Posts: 4,103 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Of course the Lions wouldn't have won any Super Bowls, and Brady would have retired a long time ago after his sixth long-term stay on the injured list. The biggest difference is that I would be the one arguing that Tom Brady was a GOAT-caliber QB while everyone else was distracted by whoever had the bright, shiny rings (whoever the QB on the Patriots was instead of Brady would have most of them).

    This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 29,361 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @doubledragon said:
    Yes, you can't help but feel sorry for Detroit's fighting Lions, losers since 1957, when Bobby Layne placed a curse on them, a curse that exists to this day.


    An awesome quote by someone back in the day about Bobby Layne

    “Bobby Layne never lost a game, he just ran out of time”

  • HydrantHydrant Posts: 7,773 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 13, 2022 9:18AM

    If Brady had played for the Lions they would have been a mediocre team at best. Then a few years into his career, the Lions would have traded him to the Rams in a rip off deal for whoever the Rams QB was and a couple of future flop draft picks.......Then, the Rams would at this point be the team with the most Super Bowl wins and nothing would have changed for the Lions except they would be worse off than ever without Brady.
    They're hopeless.......

  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 22,542 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @perkdog said:

    @doubledragon said:
    Yes, you can't help but feel sorry for Detroit's fighting Lions, losers since 1957, when Bobby Layne placed a curse on them, a curse that exists to this day.


    An awesome quote by someone back in the day about Bobby Layne

    “Bobby Layne never lost a game, he just ran out of time”

    He won 3 championships with the Lions in the 50s. Along with the Browns, the Lions were great back then, it's hard to believe the Browns and Lions once dominated the game.

  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 22,542 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The mythology about the curse goes like this: The season after Layne helped the Lions win their third and final championship of the 1950s, Lions coach George Wilson traded the Hall of Fame quarterback to the Pittsburgh Steelers on Oct. 6, 1958. In exchange, the Lions received quarterback Earl Morrall and two high draft picks. Layne was angry and supposedly said the Lions wouldn’t win a championship for another 50 years.

  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 22,542 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Bobby Layne was on the cover of TIME magazine back in 1954.

  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 22,542 ✭✭✭✭✭

    And he was on the cover of Sports Illustrated in 1995, as the toughest quarterback ever.

  • HydrantHydrant Posts: 7,773 ✭✭✭✭✭

    As long as the fans continue to go to the games, there is no reason for the Lions to improve. The fans accept and pay for a terrible product. It's always been a puzzle to me. The only explanation I can come up with is that the entertainment alternatives in the Detroit area are either very limited or non-existent.

  • thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Hydrant said:
    As long as the fans continue to go to the games, there is no reason for the Lions to improve. The fans accept and pay for a terrible product. It's always been a puzzle to me. The only explanation I can come up with is that the entertainment alternatives in the Detroit area are either very limited or non-existent.

    ..
    It's actually more about the profit sharing scam ran by the league. Mostly financed by the tv deals.

  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 22,542 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I apologize for becoming obsessed with Bobby Laybe today, but this is fascinsting to me. Here is an article that goes into detail about the curse, and his former teammates and his son comment about it.

    Is Curse of Bobby Layne real? 1957 Detroit Lions say team's jinxed

    Do you believe in the Curse of Bobby Layne?

    It didn’t take long for Roger Zatkoff to answer.

    “Yes,” the former Detroit Lions linebacker said, sitting among a gathering of teammates who won the 1957 NFL world championship.

    At a roundtable discussion the Detroit Free Press hosted July 26 at Andiamo italian restaurant in Bloomfield Township, Zatkoff joined linebacker Joe Schmidt, receivers Dorne Dibble and Steve Junker, defensive end Gene Cronin and former assistant general manager Bud Erickson to discuss the curse and other topics for the 60th anniversary of the team’s last championship.

    They all agreed: The Curse of Bobby Layne is real.

    The mythology about the curse goes like this: The season after Layne helped the Lions win their third and final championship of the 1950s, Lions coach George Wilson traded the Hall of Fame quarterback to the Pittsburgh Steelers on Oct. 6, 1958. In exchange, the Lions received quarterback Earl Morrall and two high draft picks. Layne was angry and supposedly said the Lions wouldn’t win a championship for another 50 years.

    Layne’s actual curse was never recorded by anyone. Basically, it has been hearsay for more than a half-century.

    But don’t try telling that to any of Layne’s teammates. Any doubt about the curse’s existence was erased when the Lions indeed went 50 years without a championship. In 2008, the year the curse was supposed to end, the Lions became the first NFL team to go 0-16.

    “But that’s passed,” Schmidt said. “He said 50 years. It’s been 60.”

    “Sixty years of the curse,” Junker said.

    “We’re at 60 right now,” Zatkoff said. “Let’s win again.”

    The Lions have won one playoff game since beating the Cleveland Browns, 59-14, to win the 1957 NFL championship.

    There is one man who knows what really happened with the curse. Or, at the very least, he has the most direct knowledge of it.

    Alan Layne, 64, never heard his father actually utter the curse or speak of it later in life.

    Bobby Layne died in 1986 at age 59, and his youngest son never heard his father complain about the Lions, the trade or mention the curse.

    “No, there’s no sour grapes,” Alan Layne told the Free Press in a phone interview from his home in Oklahoma City. “He never said anything derogatory around me or my brother. It was just water under the bridge. He wasn’t like that, and he just went on.”

    Over time, Alan Layne learned from his mother, Carol, that the curse indeed had been uttered by his dad.

    “When he found out he got traded, he might have been a little angry and he said something to the effect that the Lions won’t win a championship for 50 years,” Alan Layne said. “And when it was 50 years after he said it, I guess the newspaper said, ‘Well, at least we have a chance now.’ There’s websites with the Curse of Bobby Layne. I’ve never heard of such.”

    Sure enough, curseofbobbylayne.com is a real website that chronicles — actually, revels — in all things related to the curse.

    The big questions related to the curse are about the trade. Why did it happen? And what was it about the trade that angered Layne so much that he hexed the team for multiple generations?

    When the trade occurred, it was unpopular but it made some sense. Layne was 31 and he missed the final three games of the 1957 season after he broke his right ankle in the second-to-last game of the regular season. That season, Layne had rotated with Tobin Rote, who led the Lions to their two playoff wins in spectacular fashion. Wilson said he was veering away from the two-quarterback system that teams regularly used in the ’50s. Wilson seemed to prepare for the future with a younger quarterback in Morrall, 24 at the time, and two draft picks. There was even talk about Layne’s possible retirement when he broke his ankle.

    Another largely unproven theory was that Layne bet on Lions games, so Wilson essentially kicked him off the team.

    But one teammate had a different theory

    “George Wilson,” Dibble said. “Bobby had more power than George and George was afraid of it.”

    Schmidt wasn’t convinced.

    “Oh, I don’t know if that was it,” Schmidt said.

    “I do,” Dibble said. “Why would you get rid of him? … Why would you get rid of Bobby when you just won the championship?”

    At the time, much was made of a newspaper report that said there was a “smoldering feud” between Layne and Wilson, even though both publicly denied it.
    When the trade went down, Schmidt told the Free Press: “It makes me sick. I think it’s a big mistake. He’s still a damned good quarterback.”

    As for the second part of what led to the curse — what angered Layne so much — there are some theories about that.

    “Well, I think it was pretty bitter,” Schmidt said July 26. “The guy (played in) the championship ’52, ’53, ’54, and all of a sudden now they’re going to trade him. Bobby was sort of a tough guy on the outside, but inside he was sort of sentimental and he liked his teammates and loved his teammates, loved the game.

    “I think he had that attitude, which is right, that, hey, I brought all these championships to you and now you’re going to broom me and go someplace else?”

    Being traded is bad enough. But it was the way Layne received the news that truly upset him.

    “My mom said, from what I remember, that when he got traded from the Lions to the Steelers he was a little unhappy,” Alan Layne said. “I don’t think they did it in a proper way.”

    According to an Oct. 7, 1958 Detroit News article, Layne explained exactly why he was so upset. On the day of the trade, Carol Layne had flown to Detroit from the family’s home in Lubbock, Texas, to meet her husband.

    “I met Carol at the airport and we were walking out when I heard ’em paging me,” Layne told the News. “I got to the phone and George (Wilson) said, ‘I’ve got to tell you something I don’t want to,’ and then I knew I’d been traded. It seems to me he could’ve sat down across a desk and looked at me and told me — long as I’ve been here.”

    Carol Layne interrupted her husband and said, “He probably wanted to make sure you knew it before you heard it on the radio or read it in the newspaper.”

    Layne seemed to take little solace in this idea.

    “Maybe,” he said. “But you can’t tell me it happened that sudden. I don’t believe they had a meetin’ and everybody said aye or raised their hands just like that. It wasn’t just one day. There had to have been some talk before.”

    Layne was reunited with former Lions coach, Buddy Parker, in Pittsburgh in 1958. He went 7-2-1 and made the Pro Bowl in '58 and '59. Layne never returned to the playoffs and retired after the 1962 season.

    The Lions went 4-7-1 in 1958 under Rote. After they went 3-8-1 in 1959, Rote was released. The Lions didn't return to the playoffs until 1970 — their lone playoff appearance in the 24 years after their 1957 championship. That lone playoff victory came in the 1991 season.

    Maybe if Layne hadn’t been traded, things would have been different for the Lions. If you believe in curses.

    “Unfortunately,” Schmidt said, “they did that. But professional sports are like that. I don’t think they did it in the right manner, is probably what I’m saying. They could have been more diplomatic about it and did it in a different way so it would be easier for him and teammates and the city, so to speak.”

    Skimming the curse
    Bobby Layne was traded to the Pittsburgh Steelers two games into the 1958 season. Since the trade, the Lions have made 12 playoff appearances, won only a single playoff game and three division titles. Layne was long considered the best quarterback in franchise history before Matthew Stafford came around. Here's a quick look at the Lions' success since the trade:

    Record: 375-497-16

    Playoff appearances: 12 (1970, '82, '83, '91, '93, '94, '95, '97, '99, 2001, '14, '16).

    Playoff win: 1 (1991).

    Division titles: 3 (1983, '91, '93).

    Championships: 0 (Lions won three championships with Layne: 1952, '53, '57).

  • thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thank you for sharing that article @doubledragon . I knew about the curse. I've read about it. I've even talked about it with my wife in an enfeebled attempt to get her interested in the NFL (spoiler alert, she thought the curse story was interesting, but her fandom went no farther). But I didn't know all of these details, so thank you again!

  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 22,542 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @thisistheshow said:
    Thank you for sharing that article @doubledragon . I knew about the curse. I've read about it. I've even talked about it with my wife in an enfeebled attempt to get her interested in the NFL (spoiler alert, she thought the curse story was interesting, but her fandom went no farther). But I didn't know all of these details, so thank you again!

    You're welcome buddy, glad you enjoyed it! 🖒

  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 22,542 ✭✭✭✭✭

    For anyone who's interested, this looks like a good book about the 1950s Lions.

  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 22,542 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Just to show you how bad things are with the Lions, just look at this.

  • 1951WheatiesPremium1951WheatiesPremium Posts: 6,226 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Tom Brady wins nothing as a Lion.

    The culture in New England was changed by Bill Parcells and Bill Bellichek, not Tom Brady. Also, Tom Brady didn’t put Michigan on the map and he didn’t change the culture in Tampa Bay.

    He’s one of the greatest quarterbacks to play, for sure, but he does not walk on water or turn water into wine. And it would take those legitimate type miracles to make the Lions wins…

    Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?

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  • thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @doubledragon said:
    Just to show you how bad things are with the Lions, just look at this.

    ..
    So it looks like the Vikings are the team with the most playoff wins in the SB era without a SB win?

  • thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1951WheatiesPremium said:
    Tom Brady wins nothing as a Lion.

    The culture in New England was changed by Bill Parcells and Bill Bellichek, not Tom Brady. Also, Tom Brady didn’t put Michigan on the map and he didn’t change the culture in Tampa Bay.

    He’s one of the greatest quarterbacks to play, for sure, but he does not walk on water or turn water into wine. And it would take those legitimate type miracles to make the Lions wins…

    ...
    Here is a perfect example of why I need a sabbatical. I was about to say that this sounds like a great idea for a thread, but then I quickly realized that I was already in that exact thread.

  • 1951WheatiesPremium1951WheatiesPremium Posts: 6,226 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @thisistheshow said:

    @doubledragon said:
    Just to show you how bad things are with the Lions, just look at this.

    ..
    So it looks like the Vikings are the team with the most playoff wins in the SB era without a SB win?

    Just looking at the chart now?

    I would say - with near certainty - that if you were drafted by a team with the number 12 (or less) next to their name in the win column? You likely never had a chance to succeed.

    Anybody here that knows I’m a Giants might be surprised to hear me say this but the three big QB’s from Eli’s class sort of prove what I just said; if Eli had been a Charger, Phil beats Tim twice instead.

    All three were excellent QBs and one was unfortunately drafted by San Diego. Archie took a lot of heat at the time but in hindsight, him steering Eli away from San Diego was worth any heat he took.

    Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?

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  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 22,542 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @thisistheshow said:

    @doubledragon said:
    Just to show you how bad things are with the Lions, just look at this.

    ..
    So it looks like the Vikings are the team with the most playoff wins in the SB era without a SB win?

    Yes, I think that is correct, the Vikings are the team with the most playoff wins without a Super Bowl, and it doesn't look like that is going to change any time soon.

  • Alfonz24Alfonz24 Posts: 3,022 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @thisistheshow said:

    @doubledragon said:
    Just to show you how bad things are with the Lions, just look at this.

    ..
    So it looks like the Vikings are the team with the most playoff wins in the SB era without a SB win?

    Chargers?

    #LetsGoSwitzerlandThe Man Who Does Not Read Has No Advantage Over the Man Who Cannot Read. The biggest obstacle to progress is a habit of “buying what we want and begging for what we need.”You get the Freedom you fight for and get the Oppression you deserve.
  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 22,542 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @thisistheshow said:

    @1951WheatiesPremium said:
    Tom Brady wins nothing as a Lion.

    The culture in New England was changed by Bill Parcells and Bill Bellichek, not Tom Brady. Also, Tom Brady didn’t put Michigan on the map and he didn’t change the culture in Tampa Bay.

    He’s one of the greatest quarterbacks to play, for sure, but he does not walk on water or turn water into wine. And it would take those legitimate type miracles to make the Lions wins…

    ...
    Here is a perfect example of why I need a sabbatical. I was about to say that this sounds like a great idea for a thread, but then I quickly realized that I was already in that exact thread.

    He's basically saying that the Lions would need Jesus to be their quarterback to win a Super Bowl, but it wouldn't work because it is a known fact that Jesus cheated at sports.

  • thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Alfonz24 said:

    @thisistheshow said:

    @doubledragon said:
    Just to show you how bad things are with the Lions, just look at this.

    ..
    So it looks like the Vikings are the team with the most playoff wins in the SB era without a SB win?

    Chargers?

    I can see where you are confused. Those are the LA Rams with 23.

  • thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 14, 2022 10:46AM

    ❤️

  • 1951WheatiesPremium1951WheatiesPremium Posts: 6,226 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @doubledragon said:

    @thisistheshow said:

    @1951WheatiesPremium said:
    Tom Brady wins nothing as a Lion.

    The culture in New England was changed by Bill Parcells and Bill Bellichek, not Tom Brady. Also, Tom Brady didn’t put Michigan on the map and he didn’t change the culture in Tampa Bay.

    He’s one of the greatest quarterbacks to play, for sure, but he does not walk on water or turn water into wine. And it would take those legitimate type miracles to make the Lions wins…

    ...
    Here is a perfect example of why I need a sabbatical. I was about to say that this sounds like a great idea for a thread, but then I quickly realized that I was already in that exact thread.

    He's basically saying that the Lions would need Jesus to be their quarterback to win a Super Bowl, but it wouldn't work because it is a known fact that Jesus cheated at sports.

    Sure, when Jesus intervenes to get Franco Harris a catch or the Tuck Rule called it’s fine but he takes a gimme at Putt-Putt and all of a sudden DoubleD become double P? As in Pontius Pilat?

    By the way, Jesus has 12 men and is shredded in just about every depiction you ever see…

    …plus, don’t EVER forget:

    🤣😂🤣

    Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?

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  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 22,542 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1951WheatiesPremium said:

    @doubledragon said:

    @thisistheshow said:

    @1951WheatiesPremium said:
    Tom Brady wins nothing as a Lion.

    The culture in New England was changed by Bill Parcells and Bill Bellichek, not Tom Brady. Also, Tom Brady didn’t put Michigan on the map and he didn’t change the culture in Tampa Bay.

    He’s one of the greatest quarterbacks to play, for sure, but he does not walk on water or turn water into wine. And it would take those legitimate type miracles to make the Lions wins…

    ...
    Here is a perfect example of why I need a sabbatical. I was about to say that this sounds like a great idea for a thread, but then I quickly realized that I was already in that exact thread.

    He's basically saying that the Lions would need Jesus to be their quarterback to win a Super Bowl, but it wouldn't work because it is a known fact that Jesus cheated at sports.

    Sure, when Jesus intervenes to get Franco Harris a catch or the Tuck Rule called it’s fine but he takes a gimme at Putt-Putt and all of a sudden DoubleD become double P? As in Pontius Pilat?

    By the way, Jesus has 12 men and is shredded in just about every depiction you ever see…

    …plus, don’t EVER forget:

    🤣😂🤣

    Everyone knows Jesus already played in the NFL, he went by the name Charlie Whitehurst, he was very low-key, didn't want to draw too much attention to himself.

  • 1951WheatiesPremium1951WheatiesPremium Posts: 6,226 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 14, 2022 6:57AM

    @doubledragon said:

    @1951WheatiesPremium said:

    @doubledragon said:

    @thisistheshow said:

    @1951WheatiesPremium said:
    Tom Brady wins nothing as a Lion.

    The culture in New England was changed by Bill Parcells and Bill Bellichek, not Tom Brady. Also, Tom Brady didn’t put Michigan on the map and he didn’t change the culture in Tampa Bay.

    He’s one of the greatest quarterbacks to play, for sure, but he does not walk on water or turn water into wine. And it would take those legitimate type miracles to make the Lions wins…

    ...
    Here is a perfect example of why I need a sabbatical. I was about to say that this sounds like a great idea for a thread, but then I quickly realized that I was already in that exact thread.

    He's basically saying that the Lions would need Jesus to be their quarterback to win a Super Bowl, but it wouldn't work because it is a known fact that Jesus cheated at sports.

    Sure, when Jesus intervenes to get Franco Harris a catch or the Tuck Rule called it’s fine but he takes a gimme at Putt-Putt and all of a sudden DoubleD become double P? As in Pontius Pilat?

    By the way, Jesus has 12 men and is shredded in just about every depiction you ever see…

    …plus, don’t EVER forget:

    🤣😂🤣

    Everyone knows Jesus already played in the NFL, he went by the name Charlie Whitehurst, he was very low-key, didn't want to draw too much attention to himself.

    Nice

    Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest

  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 22,542 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 14, 2022 3:18AM

    This is one of my favorite photos of Bobby Layne in action.

  • HydrantHydrant Posts: 7,773 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 14, 2022 8:06AM

    There is a very good movie about the Lions..... It's really old, 1968. The name of the film is "Paper Lion.".... Nothing has changed in the 54 years that have passed with that organization. Some things never change.....It's a good movie.....check it out.

  • thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭✭✭

    No more God and Jesus memes DD, please.

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,431 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 14, 2022 2:59PM

    @craig44 said:
    He is a team culture changer. they would have won a Super Bowl with Brady.

    Nope. One player cannot change an entire franchise. He might be the last factor needed to make a team successful like Brady did for Tampa Bay. Brady could not fix stupid in the front and coaching offices.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • 1951WheatiesPremium1951WheatiesPremium Posts: 6,226 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @thisistheshow said:
    No more God and Jesus memes DD, please.

    My apologies. Fixed.

    Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest

  • thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 14, 2022 10:44AM

    I'm going to go back and edit and erase my two thumbs down quote with the images. I would hopefully ask that the others do the same.

    Thank you everyone. ❤️

  • 1951WheatiesPremium1951WheatiesPremium Posts: 6,226 ✭✭✭✭✭

    To get back to an earlier point, I think Patriots fans on average tend to under appreciate the impact that Bill Parcells had on the New England organization, at large. The man came to New England as a motivator, talent evaluator and educator, not to mention two time champion. His mere hiring made a massive statement, his arrival brought immediate improvement in on field play, coaching acumen and player acquisition and development.

    A man like that changes cultures.

    One of the best things that can happen for any QB is to inherit a team where they’re the keystone rather than the cornerstone; the final piece needed. Tom Brady, Roethlesberger, Eli Manning, Patrick Mahomes - the talent varies greatly but they are united by the fact that they stepped into a team that already really well built - the teams had a superior offensive line, the building blocks of an excellent defense and a majority of players focused on winning above all else (having cast aside the others before arrival of young impressionable QB), understanding that establishing that reputation it is the best way to try to get paid and have a long, productive career.

    Amazingly enough, Tom Brady managed to be the keystone twice! And in both cases, it was less about the prolific TD passes and more about the reduction of unnecessary turnovers by the QB he replaced. Obviously, Brady can do it all but I’ve always been more impressed by the single digit INT totals rather than the prolific TD pass totals, myself.

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  • thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Parcels is amazing. But so is Belichick. His defensive schemes certainly played a huge role in those two Giants SB wins he was a part of.

    Brady, in my opinion, is a culture changer. I have always given credit to both of them credit, calling it a perfect storm. The more I read and learned about Brady's history before coming to the Patriots and during his rookie season, the more I've understood what he brought with him.

  • 1951WheatiesPremium1951WheatiesPremium Posts: 6,226 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @thisistheshow said:
    Parcels is amazing. But so is Belichick. His defensive schemes certainly played a huge role in those two Giants SB wins he was a part of.

    Brady, in my opinion, is a culture changer. I have always given credit to both of them credit, calling it a perfect storm. The more I read and learned about Brady's history before coming to the Patriots and during his rookie season, the more I've understood what he brought with him.

    I agree with you; I can’t believe I forgot to mention that: even if he’d done none of the above, he introduced and brought Bill Bellichek into Robert Kraft’s orbit while the former was once and again a member of his coaching staff.

    That alone makes him a figure of massive importance. Also, he did get the Pats to a Super Bowl during his brief but enormously important and impactful stay in New England as head coach.

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  • erikthredderikthredd Posts: 8,100 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Tim, Parcells does deserve a ton of credit for helping to turn this franchise around, to go along with Bob Kraft buying the team and the drafting of Drew Bledsoe. I'd honestly say that part of the reason that Parcells doesn't get more credit for his time here is because he pretty much bailed on the team right before they were to play GB in that 1996-97 Super Bowl. Having his players find out that their head coach decided to coach another team right before the biggest game of their lives was seen as pretty unforgivable by many Pats fans at the time. There's nothing wrong with wanting to move on but he & the Jets could have waited 24hrs to let that news out. Belichick then leading the team to 6 Super Bowls wins pretty much made Parcells time in NE nothing but a footnote.

  • doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 22,542 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Great documentary about Bill Belichick and Bill Parcells, both men sit down together and reminisce about their careers.

  • 1951WheatiesPremium1951WheatiesPremium Posts: 6,226 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @erikthredd said:
    Tim, Parcells does deserve a ton of credit for helping to turn this franchise around, to go along with Bob Kraft buying the team and the drafting of Drew Bledsoe. I'd honestly say that part of the reason that Parcells doesn't get more credit for his time here is because he pretty much bailed on the team right before they were to play GB in that 1996-97 Super Bowl. Having his players find out that their head coach decided to coach another team right before the biggest game of their lives was seen as pretty unforgivable by many Pats fans at the time. There's nothing wrong with wanting to move on but he & the Jets could have waited 24hrs to let that news out. Belichick then leading the team to 6 Super Bowls wins pretty much made Parcells time in NE nothing but a footnote.

    I hear that. Bill Parcells left my NY Giants high and dry, as well, but his impact is undeniable. Similarly, Tom Coughlin came later and I like him even more but Bill, despite his massive ego, was instrumental in e Giants return to relevance.

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  • erikthredderikthredd Posts: 8,100 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1951WheatiesPremium said:

    @erikthredd said:
    Tim, Parcells does deserve a ton of credit for helping to turn this franchise around, to go along with Bob Kraft buying the team and the drafting of Drew Bledsoe. I'd honestly say that part of the reason that Parcells doesn't get more credit for his time here is because he pretty much bailed on the team right before they were to play GB in that 1996-97 Super Bowl. Having his players find out that their head coach decided to coach another team right before the biggest game of their lives was seen as pretty unforgivable by many Pats fans at the time. There's nothing wrong with wanting to move on but he & the Jets could have waited 24hrs to let that news out. Belichick then leading the team to 6 Super Bowls wins pretty much made Parcells time in NE nothing but a footnote.

    I hear that. Bill Parcells left my NY Giants high and dry, as well, but his impact is undeniable. Similarly, Tom Coughlin came later and I like him even more but Bill, despite his massive ego, was instrumental in e Giants return to relevance.

    I also think Parcells lost some of his luster once BB came in and won 3 SBs in his first 5 seasons in NE without Parcells. For years this topic was heavily debated on local sports talk radio and many fans wondered if Belichick had more to do with those great Giants SB wins than Parcells did. Similarly in recent years we've seen this same question in regards to Brady & Belichick and who was more responsible for NE's success? Brady got out and won elsewhere so until BB wins another ring Brady will get the lionshare of credit here.

    Another thing is Parcells convincing Curtis Martin to go sign with the Jets only made things worse from a fan standpoint when Martin went on to have a great career in NY over the next 8-10yrs.

  • 1951WheatiesPremium1951WheatiesPremium Posts: 6,226 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @erikthredd said:

    @1951WheatiesPremium said:

    @erikthredd said:
    Tim, Parcells does deserve a ton of credit for helping to turn this franchise around, to go along with Bob Kraft buying the team and the drafting of Drew Bledsoe. I'd honestly say that part of the reason that Parcells doesn't get more credit for his time here is because he pretty much bailed on the team right before they were to play GB in that 1996-97 Super Bowl. Having his players find out that their head coach decided to coach another team right before the biggest game of their lives was seen as pretty unforgivable by many Pats fans at the time. There's nothing wrong with wanting to move on but he & the Jets could have waited 24hrs to let that news out. Belichick then leading the team to 6 Super Bowls wins pretty much made Parcells time in NE nothing but a footnote.

    I hear that. Bill Parcells left my NY Giants high and dry, as well, but his impact is undeniable. Similarly, Tom Coughlin came later and I like him even more but Bill, despite his massive ego, was instrumental in e Giants return to relevance.

    I also think Parcells lost some of his luster once BB came in and won 3 SBs in his first 5 seasons in NE without Parcells. For years this topic was heavily debated on local sports talk radio and many fans wondered if Belichick had more to do with those great Giants SB wins than Parcells did. Similarly in recent years we've seen this same question in regards to Brady & Belichick and who was more responsible for NE's success? Brady got out and won elsewhere so until BB wins another ring Brady will get the lionshare of credit here.

    Another thing is Parcells convincing Curtis Martin to go sign with the Jets only made things worse from a fan standpoint when Martin went on to have a great career in NY over the next 8-10yrs.

    Eric,

    Again, Giants fan here. I know you’re going to be well versed with his terrible departure from the Patriots. Perhaps look into his Giants departure some, too, as it might have been worse.

    Sports is funny in that all people view the same events and yet the conclusions drawn and viewpoints formed can be dramatically different. I also believe more than viewpoint is allowed and can be correct.

    Our views differ on Tom Brady but we can certainly agree that he was a very spectacular quarterback.

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  • erikthredderikthredd Posts: 8,100 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1951WheatiesPremium said:

    @erikthredd said:

    @1951WheatiesPremium said:

    @erikthredd said:
    Tim, Parcells does deserve a ton of credit for helping to turn this franchise around, to go along with Bob Kraft buying the team and the drafting of Drew Bledsoe. I'd honestly say that part of the reason that Parcells doesn't get more credit for his time here is because he pretty much bailed on the team right before they were to play GB in that 1996-97 Super Bowl. Having his players find out that their head coach decided to coach another team right before the biggest game of their lives was seen as pretty unforgivable by many Pats fans at the time. There's nothing wrong with wanting to move on but he & the Jets could have waited 24hrs to let that news out. Belichick then leading the team to 6 Super Bowls wins pretty much made Parcells time in NE nothing but a footnote.

    I hear that. Bill Parcells left my NY Giants high and dry, as well, but his impact is undeniable. Similarly, Tom Coughlin came later and I like him even more but Bill, despite his massive ego, was instrumental in e Giants return to relevance.

    I also think Parcells lost some of his luster once BB came in and won 3 SBs in his first 5 seasons in NE without Parcells. For years this topic was heavily debated on local sports talk radio and many fans wondered if Belichick had more to do with those great Giants SB wins than Parcells did. Similarly in recent years we've seen this same question in regards to Brady & Belichick and who was more responsible for NE's success? Brady got out and won elsewhere so until BB wins another ring Brady will get the lionshare of credit here.

    Another thing is Parcells convincing Curtis Martin to go sign with the Jets only made things worse from a fan standpoint when Martin went on to have a great career in NY over the next 8-10yrs.

    Eric,

    Again, Giants fan here. I know you’re going to be well versed with his terrible departure from the Patriots. Perhaps look into his Giants departure some, too, as it might have been worse.

    Sports is funny in that all people view the same events and yet the conclusions drawn and viewpoints formed can be dramatically different. I also believe more than viewpoint is allowed and can be correct.

    Our views differ on Tom Brady but we can certainly agree that he was a very spectacular quarterback.

    Those weren't necessarily my viewpoints just what I remember from sports talk radio 20-25yrs ago on how Parcells was thought of at the time by Pats fans. This subject got pretty beat to death over the years.

    BP deserves plenty of credit for his part in turning the franchise into a winning team/contender and all of the success from the BB era doesn't happen if Parcells didn't hire Belichick to be his assisstant HC in 1996. That one season where Kraft got to know BB is what eventually led to his hiring in 2000 and the rest is history.

  • fergie23fergie23 Posts: 2,079 ✭✭✭✭

    What BB did was put together a roster and game plan that kept almost every game close for Brady's entire career. That allowed Brady to be the hero and shine in the biggest moments and importantly not have the defense crack when they had the lead late.

    You saw the same thing in New England when Brady left, only the Pats didn't have a QB that could get the job done when it mattered. There were only 3 games in the entire 2020 season the Pats weren't within one score in the 4th quarter. Instead of 7-9, with Brady they would have been 11-5 or so.

    As for the Lions, I am sure Brady would have managed to win with them as well. QB play and schedule are the most important factors in winning in the NFL. Would they have made a Super Bowl? Who knows, there is a lot of good fortune in making the SB (unless you are Brady & BB). The Bucs only missed out last year because Godwin blew out his knee and Bowles decided to not double team the best WR in football in 2021 (a mistake BB wouldn't have made).

    Robb

  • thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I like that we have Patriots/Belichick/Parcells talk going in more than one thread simultaneously. 🏈

    I also like the way way @fergie23 put it above (and now below)...

    @fergie23 said:
    What BB did was put together a roster and game plan that kept almost every game close for Brady's entire career. That allowed Brady to be the hero and shine in the biggest moments and importantly not have the defense crack when they had the lead late.

    You saw the same thing in New England when Brady left, only the Pats didn't have a QB that could get the job done when it mattered. There were only 3 games in the entire 2020 season the Pats weren't within one score in the 4th quarter. Instead of 7-9, with Brady they would have been 11-5 or so.

    As for the Lions, I am sure Brady would have managed to win with them as well. QB play and schedule are the most important factors in winning in the NFL. Would they have made a Super Bowl? Who knows, there is a lot of good fortune in making the SB (unless you are Brady & BB). The Bucs only missed out last year because Godwin blew out his knee and Bowles decided to not double team the best WR in football in 2021 (a mistake BB wouldn't have made).

    Robb

    ....
    As a huge Patriots/Brady fan and sports junkie, I have delved pretty deeply into some off the beaten path reading about these topics. And I have come to conclusions that I feel comfortable with.

    Belichick and Brady, I'll say it again, were the perfect storm.

    Belichick brought to NE something and was trying to cultivate something great. Wouldn't have been nearly as successful without Brady. But as Fergie said, Belichick was an amazingly stabilizing factor, a rock with always-available strength and consistency. Brady was allowed to grow and flourish and sustain and fine-tune his greatness.

    Brady brought a lot of greatness with him to NE, as opposed to the common belief. And if we fast forward just a little, to the final drive of the Patriots first SB win, we see that the Brady we now know was in many ways already there.

    Parcells was amazing. No two ways about it. I don't know much about his Giants departure, @1951WheatiesPremium , and I'll probably read a bit later if I remember, but feel free to share some here. I am interested. As @erikthredd noted, the way that he left NE was terrible.

    Growing up a Patriots fan wasn't that great. Just a month away from my tenth birthday, the 85 SB (in January of 86) found me rounding into my NFL fandom (and I loved the USFL too), as well as getting a taste of playoff success....only to be crushed by da Bears ( @galaxy27 eat it up).... But Parcells and Drew Bledsoe gave Patriots nation a lot of hope. Maybe we wouldn't have won that SB against Green Bay either way, but having Parcells quit on the team before it was even played certainly didn't help matters.

    I remember watching Bledsoe get hurt that day against the Jets, thinking that any remaining SB hope had instantly vanished. 🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 But I digress...

    Yes, I know that Kraft certainly was open to the idea of Belichick coaching in many ways thanks to his time with the Pats as an assistant under Parcells. And I'm truly thankful for the way Parcells handled his move away from being the Jets HC. If he had decided to completely leave the organization and relinquish control, and they had still wanted Belichick to be HC, Belichick would have stayed happily on with the Jets.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 10,398 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillJones said:

    @craig44 said:
    He is a team culture changer. they would have won a Super Bowl with Brady.

    Nope. One player cannot change an entire franchise. He might be the last factor needed to make a team successful like Brady did for Tampa Bay. Brady could not fix stupid in the front and coaching offices.

    If you don't think so, read "season in the sun" and get the skinny from Arians and the coaching staff and front office of the Bucs. according to all that matter in Tampa, Brady was in fact a team culture changer. not my words, theirs. they would know.

    George Brett, Bobby Orr and Terry Bradshaw.

  • thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 15, 2022 5:14AM

    @craig44 said:

    @BillJones said:

    @craig44 said:
    He is a team culture changer. they would have won a Super Bowl with Brady.

    Nope. One player cannot change an entire franchise. He might be the last factor needed to make a team successful like Brady did for Tampa Bay. Brady could not fix stupid in the front and coaching offices.

    If you don't think so, read "season in the sun" and get the skinny from Arians and the coaching staff and front office of the Bucs. according to all that matter in Tampa, Brady was in fact a team culture changer. not my words, theirs. they would know.

    ..ok
    I nominated Brick with a potential comment of the year recently. This also deserves consideration. Combining an argument for the GOATs goatness with the use of the expression "get the skinny" is definitely COTY worthy as well.

    Now, is there a difference between Comment and Post of the Year. Is a post a discussion or new thread, but a comment a comment? Stay tuned and find out (or not ...)

    Edited to add: yes, the stories from
    BUCS players and personnel are amazing in regard to Brady's culture influence.

  • 1951WheatiesPremium1951WheatiesPremium Posts: 6,226 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:

    @BillJones said:

    @craig44 said:
    He is a team culture changer. they would have won a Super Bowl with Brady.

    Nope. One player cannot change an entire franchise. He might be the last factor needed to make a team successful like Brady did for Tampa Bay. Brady could not fix stupid in the front and coaching offices.

    If you don't think so, read "season in the sun" and get the skinny from Arians and the coaching staff and front office of the Bucs. according to all that matter in Tampa, Brady was in fact a team culture changer. not my words, theirs. they would know.

    …or they’d just like to sell a(nother) book to Tom Brady’s fan base.

    It can be difficult not to fall into the trap of the media hype machine in general and in sports. They’ll get you to believe some ridiculous things. I’ve actually heard people credit Michael Jordan for game winning shots made by Steve Kerr and John Paxson! We’re veering into that territory now with Tom Terrific.

    I enjoy reading it, it’s fun bar room talk but it really diminishes and in some ways disrespects his teammates.

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