When Do Clash Marks Become Grading Errors

lilolme

So I saw 'asheland' new post about the ASE error with clash marks (I didn't want to hijack that thread so started this one). This made me think that I see somewhat regularly clash marks on coins. The clash marks can vary from small to larger and more dramatic marks. However, most are not identified as an error. This sometimes could be because they were not submitted for error recognition when graded.

So when do clash marks become a grading error? Or perhaps could ask when do clash marks become a collectable error and graded as so?

Is it value oriented? Is the collectable and error graded clash marks mainly limited to modern coins?

What guidelines, if any, do the TPG use to determine if a clash mark can be slabbed as an error? I suspect, if any, that they can vary between services.

Okay enough of the questions except for - any thoughts?

djm

If you pay for the error attribution it is an error. If you don't pay for error attribution it is damage.

MasonG

Clash marks are damage?

jmlanzaf

@MasonG said:
Clash marks are damage?

No.

Clash marks also shouldn't be errors as they are usually defined because you can have thousands of identical coins. Clash marks are varieties but other than some classic coins, no one really cares that much.

As to the question: pay the money and they'll attribute almost any error. Getting someone else to care about it is another matter. No one pays for 5% MAD, for example. Missing digit from grease, forget about it.

PerryHall

On some coin series, clash marks are very common and seem to be more common than coins without clash marks. Type 2 gold dollars come to mind.

ricko

Clash marks are interesting and add to the character of some coins. They do not, generally, command any significant numismatic premium. Cheers, RickO

TurtleCat

I guess technically speaking clash marks are an error in the minting process. But I think the vast majority are too minor to be of any value unless cleverly marketed (bugs bunny, speared eagle, etc.). Dramatic ones, of course, are another story.

Fairlaneman

I paid up some for this one.
.

.
Ken

jesbroken

@Fairlaneman said:
I paid up some for this one.
.

.
Ken

I would have also, Ken. What does the reverse look like?
Jim

2windy2fish

I have noted that nickel 3 cent pieces are littered with clash marks…anyone else note another series with as many?

MFeld

@2windy2fish said:
I have noted that nickel 3 cent pieces are littered with clash marks…anyone else note another series with as many?

Three Cent Silver pieces, as well.

BuffaloIronTail

@PerryHall said:
On some coin series, clash marks are very common and seem to be more common than coins without clash marks. Type 2 gold dollars come to mind.

Clash marks on coins do not affect the technical grade of a coin.

Pete

Fairlaneman

@jesbroken said:

@Fairlaneman said:
I paid up some for this one.
.

.
Ken

I would have also, Ken. What does the reverse look like?
Jim

The reverse has a pretty heavy clash also.
.

.
Ken

lilolme

@Fairlaneman
How is that dime graded - normal, variety, error (or other)?

Fairlaneman

@lilolme said:
@Fairlaneman
How is that dime graded - normal, variety, error (or other)?

Normal at 65FB.

lilolme

@Fairlaneman said:

@lilolme said:
@Fairlaneman
How is that dime graded - normal, variety, error (or other)?

Normal at 65FB.

Thanks, that is typical of what I recall. Either normal or a variety. Just don't see clashes graded as errors that I had recalled.

Crypto

They probably just graded it an error since there wasn’t an FS number assigned and their registration system didn’t have a place for it

lilolme

It appears that the responses so far are in line with what I had been thinking. That is, a lot of clash marked coins out there. However, they are not graded as errors and probably most often not graded as anything else (variety or other).

As Turtlecat noted some that are positioned just right get a name but I believe these are graded as a variety.

The reference https://www.error-ref.com does note them as errors and has a section for die clash errors. I just had not thought of them that way.

That is what brought up the OP. I am guessing that clash marks graded as errors are probably somewhat limited and to large and/or more visible clash marks on more modern coins. Oh and those without a name.

Kind of interesting to think that one could send in a coin with a semi-common clash mark and get it graded as an error. This if the TPG don't have any limits for error graded clash marks. Yes, I realize this may not make any financial type of sense - unless it could be an eBay rarity.

lilolme

@Crypto said:
They probably just graded it an error since there wasn’t an FS number assigned and their registration system didn’t have a place for it

Thanks, that is another thought.
So maybe they Just wanted some designation since it was different and therefore had to go with the error.

jesbroken

Absolutely a beauty. Ken. Great strike and I love the clashing and the fields. Guess the engravers didn't get that die smoothed so well. lol
Jim

oih82w8

There are several clash mark varieties in the CPG books, like this one;

1892-O 25C Clashed Dies FS-901 PCGS AU55 CAC

I can agree with the aforementioned comments about forking out the dough for an "error", it will cost you and extra $65 per coin.

https://www.pcgs.com/servicesandfees

BryceM

Some add tons of character, like these:

BillJones

Clash marks usually fall into the area of die states. It’s sort of like a doubled die coin, which is viewed as a die variety, not an error. There was a mistake when the die was made, but not when the coin was struck.

As some else said, clash marks can appeal on many thousands of coins after dies are damaged.

messydesk

Clash marks are nothing burgers until they're strong or unusual enough to make someone say "wow." Unusually large amounts of design transfer or parts of the design that don't usually transfer will get people's attention. What constitutes "unusually large" varies by type. A 3c nickel will need much more design transferred to be special than most types, since they're so often heavily clashed. Arguably, clashes are a distraction on Type 2 $1 Indians, since that's the way they usually are, and the type collector in search of a nice unclashed specimen will pass over a lot of clashed ones.

Herb_T

Die clashes and cracks run all over the capped bust half dollars….that is what makes them so interesting!

BStrauss3

@MFeld said:
Three Cent Silver pieces, as well.

Although if you exclude PIDT on the 51-52-53s as they are technically not a clash, the 3CS incidences drop towards normal.

For those who don't know, PIDT (Progressive Indirect Die Transfer) is a form of die deterioration

http://www.error-ref.com/progressive-indirect-design-transfer/

Definition: This is a lesser known form of die deterioration which transfers design outlines from one die to the other. Since there are many types of design transfer (clashed dies, brockages, etc.), it is preferable to call this type of design transfer “Progressive Indirect Design Transfer” or “PIDT”. Other synonyms you’re likely to encounter are “heavy design transfer”, “internal metal displacement phenomenon (IMDP), and “ghosting”.
Progressive indirect design transfer chiefly involves large, centrally-located design elements. It’s most likely to occur in thinner denominations.

The most common manifestation on the 3CS is the ghost star on the coin's reverse.

Look, when you mint over 5.4m coins using just 40 dies, or 18.6M using just 109 dies - on a wafer-thin planchet, you are just begging for PIDT.

krueger

Clash marks should not affect the grade. BUT, i had a running debate with Pcgs concerning a full flash clean surface monster uspi 20 centavo which many of have a clash mark
Along the liberty's leg . Sent in a number of photos with it showing many others had the same .mark too it was not a scratch. They 64’d it still . I doubt this coin could not be any nicer.
A monster!
Conclusion is a mixed bag take your
Chances which way they look at it.

winesteven

While I’m not a fan of clash marks, I just picked up this lovely coin for my special Indian Head Cent set. The True View shows the clash marks better than the slab photos, but the slab shows the blazing luster.

BLUEJAYWAY

Th next time you make a mistake and are in error, tell that person no it's a variety.

Namvet69

Nice @BLUEJAYWAY You just channeled George Carlin. Peace Roy

BuffaloIronTail

A die clash a day keeps boredom away.

Pete

Aspie_Rocco

This is a minor clash, not sure if the coin was sent for error service or not. I won it on eBay for $11.49, it fits my variety-type set, and it is cool to me

lilolme

@Aspie_Rocco said:
This is a minor clash, not sure if the coin was sent for error service or not. I won it on eBay for $11.49, it fits my variety-type set, and it is cool to me

That one had me wondering. What?
When I looked up the cert number the answer came through.

Pedigree Minor Clashed Dies

That is someones past and/or current pedigree name.

DennisH

In the Morgan dollar world, this is the Godzilla of clashes (at least in terms of value) -- 1889-P VAM 23A.
This is a PCGS MS62. A PCGS-58 example recently traded hands privately for $44,000. I am not aware of any Mint State example having ever sold.

lilolme

@DennisH said:
In the Morgan dollar world, this is the Godzilla of clashes (at least in terms of value) -- 1889-P VAM 23A.
This is a PCGS MS62. A PCGS-58 example recently traded hands privately for $44,000. I am not aware of any Mint State example having ever sold.

Yeah that is deep.
One will often see that clash on the Morgans but it is just a little line.