1878 Proof Morgan Dollar Type Set- 2 Newps
Floridafacelifter
Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭✭✭
1878 was the first year of the Morgan Dollar, and even as it went into production the design was still changing- the entire process basically played out in public as the evolving designs were issued into circulation until the permanent design was reached. The three lowest mintage proof issues were all struck in 1878- namely the First Reverse (8TF), Second Reverse (7TF Reverse of ‘78) and the Third Reverse (7TF Reverse of ‘79- very rare).
I have challenged myself to create a proof type set of the different 1878 designs and have come up with the following list:
J-1550a Pattern - in George T. Morgan’s own words “the first model” for the Morgan Dollar
1878 8TF (mintage 300-500?)
1878 7TF / Reverse of ‘78 (mintage 250?)
1878-S Branch Mint Specimen (mintage 5? surviving pop 1)
(Also 7TF / Reverse of ‘78, and VAM-58)
1878 7TF / Reverse of ‘79 (mintage 20? surviving pop 4-6?)
J-1550a Pattern PCGS PR65 Cameo CAC
This was the first design, verified by George Morgan in a conversation on June 6, 1913 with S.H. Chapman (related in the June 1913 sale of the Arthur Sargent Collection). Morgan said "'this die with the deep serratures inserted by hand and with the feathers of the eagle's wing continued on the under edge of the body was the first model, and that subsequently, in deference to the idea and wishes of the Committee on Coinage, changed the arrangement of the feathers so as to leave a gap in the under edge between the feathers and the body."
More to come- this may take a while- and feedback is welcome!
Comments
Lovely
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Wow!
REALLY NICE!
That's drop dead gorgeous!
bob
That is an ambitious project. It’ll be a killer when you get it done! Happy hunting!
That is something else… gorgeous!
Coin Photographer.
I wish you success toward your goal. The coin above is a beautiful example of the engraver's art. (maybe I should say sculptor's art, since the reducing lathe was in use by this time).
GOOD LUCK.
Awesome !
Amazing and better than what the Mint produces 150 years later with all the technology.
Incredible detail on that coin - and absolutely amazing preservation. Cheers, RickO
Very cool project ........ You should consider including the J-1550b copper die trial as well.
FWIW, I’ve only seen one 1878 Rev 79 in the past 45 years and suspect that it is a pattern.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Welcome to the forum.
Naahhh.... I know you've been around. With REALLY nice coins.
That’s a great idea! Thanks!
That’s a tough one for sure!
Just Wow!
Beautiful pattern. Thanks for posting and please keep us updated on your project.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
Boiler knows I know nothing about patterns.
Why a different die for the 1550 B vs A?
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
A was in silver which is why I included it, and I liked the fact that there is a direct quote from Morgan stating it was his first design that he only changed as a result of being told to do so by the bigwigs
B was in copper and if one becomes available during this project I may add it to my “type set.” I did not include this issue in my original set concept because it is in copper not silver, but it may be worthy of inclusion!
One of those first ten hand struck VAM-60 1878-S Morgan Dollars struck on the afternoon of April 17,1878, such as the Eliasberg coin engraved “ONE OF THE FIRST TEN COINED APRIL 17TH FROM J. GUS. BURT,” would be a cool addition as well. I did not include this issue because although NGC has called a few of them specimens, I do not believe PCGS recognizes them as such.
Approximately ten coins were hand struck and presented to VIPs present, and then the press was cranked up to full speed. After nearly 1,000 coins were struck, one of the dies shattered, the press was stopped, and further coinage was suspended.
Your type set will be killer. Your 1878 proofs are already killer!
The 1550 A and B seem to be struck from different dies? Was this common for such low mintage patterns?
@boiler78 and @MrEureka
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
It's the same die pair, different metals. The 1550a is silver, while the 1550b is copper.
Coin Photographer.
Thank you so much! I love proof Morgans, and the idea for this short set came about just recently when I found the J-1550a in the Legend auction and realized how many different designs exist in proof format for the single year 1878. Once they nailed the 7TF / Reverse of ‘79 design they stuck with it through the rest of the series. 1878 was sort of a “work in progress” year for the Morgan Dollar.
Just a thought despite what PCGS recognizes. You were already on it! Might take many years for any additions...
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
Thank you- I’ve spent hours and hours researching the San Francisco Mint and dissecting the early strikings and VAM-58 and VAM-60 differences. It’s absolutely fascinating to me, and I am working on a very long post regarding that exact subject. And a big shout out to David McCarthy for his help- he is an amazing resource and just an all around great guy to have as a friend.
I was going to send you to David for information the J. Gus Burt VAM 60 pieces as well as the Linderman "Where are Mine?!" VAM 58 specimens. He went down that rabbit hole hard, so I don't have anything to add other than, "Good luck!"
While you're going for broke, I'd also consider J-1551, which has a slightly modified reverse design for the wing feathers, and is closer to the finished product.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Haha I’ve been down that rabbit hole with David since we started discussing it at the January FUN show five months ago!
Good recommendation I’ll look into it- seems like he made the changes to the wings as requested by the coinage committee. I am only vaguely familiar with it but if it’s in silver then definitely it fits well, copper……maybe. Why does it make a difference to me- copper vs silver? Basically in my mind a proof Morgan Dollar is a silver coin. So when they’re lined up next to one another in design order they will look uniform and……silver.
J-1550 is with the alteration (wings not flush to the body) in silver, 1551 is the same alteration in copper.
Coin Photographer.
Actually they are different:
J-1550a
J-1550b is the same design in copper
and J-1551
@Floridafacelifter,
The just J-1550 neither a nor b variety is different from the other two, and it is the same as the copper one with the alteration but in silver. Here it is:
Link to CoinFacts:
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1878-1-j-1550/61910
Edit: I hope this is what you're looking for?
Coin Photographer.
Great thank you! They should have named them J-1551a and J-1551b
If they are the same die pair, why is the point of the bust close to the adjacent star on the silver, though centered between the star and date on the copper?
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
Very cool undertaking Floridafacelifter! I remember seeing an 1878 Rev 79 proof Morgan in a large Capital holder that said "Finest Known" at a show at the Hilton in downtown Chicago maybe 30 yrs ago or so. The dealer at that table said it wasn't for sale IIRC.
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
@Floridafacelifter
This could be even a tougher task than it appears. I say this because looking through some auctions it appears many of the 1878 proofs are on the dark toning side and not so nice. Of course I could be putting my own personal view on this and not your view.
The 1878 8tf in proof no cam has a lot of darker toned. The cameo are better and this makes some sense since dark tone can hide and eliminate the cameo. But still some darker ones. The 7tf is no better and less of them. Again that is to me. I don't use the TV on these (toned proofs) as the TV is usually more colorful and lighter than normal in hand viewing. The auction photos in the slab are usually closer and what I am basing much of this on.
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The 1878 S - well that is interesting. Anyone who cares to read, here is a coin world article on it. Don't know if more has come around or not and the information on it. Then pcgs announcement.
https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/1878-s-morgan-dollar-may-be-presentation-piece.html
https://www.pcgs.com/news/first-known-1878s-specimen-morgan-dollar
Good luck.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
Thanks for all the comments- it’s fun to research the coins, and I am pretty picky when it comes to proof Morgans.
Now that's what I call a real First Strike!
And that's what I call a spectacular, darkly toned coin.
Nic I never noticed before but definitely different dies......
That’s interesting thanks for pointing it out!
Wow! Great coins and thank you. This post alone is worth the price of admission.
Tom
Thank you- I think 1878 is such an interesting time in the life of the Morgan Dollar- as I add to this type set my plan is to provide a write up for each coin, and the additional posts from other members who know WAY more than I do about patterns has been so educational for me! Thanks to all the contributors!
Correction, same reverse dies, slightly different obverse dies.
Coin Photographer.
1878 Proof Morgan Dollar Type Set
———————————————————
Coin #1
J-1550a Pattern PR65 Cameo CAC
“The first model” for the Morgan Dollar in the words of George T. Morgan.
———————————————————
Coin #2
1878-S VAM-58 SP65 CAC
7TF Reverse of ‘78
Unique survivor. 7TF Reverse of ‘78. Minted by San Francisco Mint Superintendent Henry Dodge with 3 or 4 other examples to be sent to U.S. Mint Director Henry Linderman in Washington, D.C., upon the initiation of Morgan Dollar production at the San Francisco Mint in April of 1878. This coin was nearly lost to time before being rediscovered and saved from obscurity by an observant collector in 2006. It is the only known surviving specimen striking of the 1878-S VAM-58.
This coin is not from the original striking ceremony held on April 17, 1878. Those are all VAM-60. This coin was struck shortly thereafter to satisfy an order for five coins that Linderman requested from Dodge. Since the VAM-60 die had shattered, Dodge struck coins for Linderman using a new set of dies, the VAM-58. Dodge either sent the very first VAM-60 struck plus four VAM-58s, or he sent five VAM-58s. Which option he chose has not been found in historical documents and may never be known, thus the mintage of this issue totals 4 or 5.
For the complete history and provenance of this coin, please see my other thread:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1077146/unique-survivor-1878-s-sp65-vam-58-morgan-dollar/p1?new=1
Spectacular!!!!!
Really a fun project to do Don. You are really combining numismatic knowledge, monetary history, esthetics, and the thrill of the hunt into one project!
Thanks guys- fascinating stuff- how can anyone NOT collect coins haha?
1878 Proof Morgan Dollar Type Set
———————————————————
Coin #1
J-1550a Pattern PCGS PR65 Cameo CAC
“The first model” for the Morgan Dollar in the words of George T. Morgan. Second finest known.
———————————————————
Coin #2
1878-S VAM-58 PCGS SP65 CAC
7TF Reverse of ‘78
The Second Reverse
Unique survivor- the only known surviving specimen striking of the 1878-S VAM-58.
———————————————————
Coin #3
1878 7TF Reverse of ‘79
NGC PR64+ Cameo CAC
The Third Reverse
Highest graded coin at either service.
PCGS census 8 / NGC census 5 (although this represents not more than 4 coins at NGC because the present coin sold in a 64 non-Cameo NGC holder in 2004- see below)
The present coin (photo matched) was auctioned by David Lawrence as part of the Richmond Sale, Part II, on November 28, 2004, in an NGC PR64 holder, for $155,250.
I have searched auction archives fairly exhaustively and only found one other sale- Heritage Auctions sold a PCGS PR64 in 1995 but there were no photos accompanying the archives listing. Could the present coin have been in a PCGS holder prior to being acquired into the Richmond Collection?
So I wonder- are there really 12 of these in existence and where are they? (8 PCGS and 4 NGC) I don’t think so- my coin is the only one I have ever seen, and is the only one I can say for sure was matched to a previous auction. CoinFacts has no photo example of this issue. NGC has one example- this coin.
If anyone has one, knows someone with one, or knows where one is please post. Currently I cannot prove that my coin is not the only survivor.
Just super coins!
Amazing 78 Rev of 79 proof, and undoubtedly the correct dies for the proof, as the lump on the D in DOLLAR shows plainly. These almost never show up for sale, and several years ago one in a rattler had to be pulled from auction because it was the wrong die pair. Wayne Miller writes about 4 specimens he had seen as of 1982 and 2 that he hadn't seen that were in known collections mentioned by Breen. So 6 known specimens as of 1982. If you can get the provenance of yours back to the 1970s, it could be matched with one of the specimens mentioned by Miller.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Wow- awesome info- thank you so much! I didn’t know about the lump on the D or the Miller/Breen documentation! I love this forum! And I love this coin as well- it actually looks in hand just like the photos- deep, dark almost black reflective fields and a silvery sparkle to the cameo devices. No real color at all- just different stark shades of black, white and steel gray. It’s quite unlike any other proof Morgan I own.
Edit: Just ordered the Wayne Miller textbook