Tuition/instant regret. What IS this green growth?

Aspie_Rocco

I was thrilled as usual to see Green through the packaging. But when I opened it I discovered too much green. I am stunned to see this on a green bean coin. What the... what is this, PVC?

Initial excitement

Sellers photo

In hand photos

bsshog40

Looks like it.

Crypto

PVC it is what is causing the brown toning as well, let it rip on eBay (or equivalent) like the last owner did or maybe resubmit to CAC but that might not be worth the trouble.

Namvet69

Wow, that's very nasty looking green pvc? Whatcha gonna do? Send it back? Or? Thanks for sharing. Peace Roy

SanctionII

Green stuff on the coin aside,................... this MS64 Franklin has negative eye appeal (from the photos of the coin; it may look better in hand under good lighting).

LanceNewmanOCC

wow. that is IRONIC.

i JUST came from a thread where i made a post about rattlers commanding a premium because the coins being stable for so long vs newer holders having not proved themselves yet.

now almost certainly this didn't happen since the coin has been holdered but odds are, it will get a bit worse.

not insulting your coin (i love widgets) but it isn't valuable enough to crack out and resub. so either one has to live with the green stuff (meh) or crack it.

fwiw, i don't know if this is tuition as sometimes you just cannot see stuff like that, especially on toned coins if the images aren't good enough. if you missed it in person (looks like it was shipped) then that is on the person buying.

we've seen enough on this forum alone over the past 24 months that the mantra i see posted an immense amount of times and good reason for it, "buy the coin, not the holder/sticker." (again, if you can't see it from images, not much you can do)

to be fair to holder/sticker companies, this stuff is usually in the minority but amazing it gets overlooked. that coin should've bodybagged even if it isn't pvc, it is a volatile compound for coins.

JBK

Unless I wanted a pocket piece or silver for a bullion stack, I'd want nothing to do with that coin.

Aspie_Rocco

@Namvet69 said:
Wow, that's very nasty looking green pvc? Whatcha gonna do? Send it back? Or? Thanks for sharing. Peace Roy

I am unsure how to proceed. The seller does accept returns, however, I accepted an offer below ask to buy the coin and feel a little cringe when thinking of sending it back.

Other than the green on the mouth, I like the coin and the toning.

bagofnickels

So I'm curious about a couple things when coins like this pop up. Is it that easy to miss PVC like this prior to encapsulation? And what do CAC and PCGS say about the possibility of a coin developing PVC like this? Obviously this isn't a crazy high dollar coin but if it can happen here I can see why people pay premiums for old holders. At least you know something isn't "developing" on the coin as @LanceNewmanOCC says.

PVC has become a great headache for me so I really am trying to learn more about it.

LanceNewmanOCC

@Aspie_Rocco said:

@Namvet69 said:
Wow, that's very nasty looking green pvc? Whatcha gonna do? Send it back? Or? Thanks for sharing. Peace Roy

I am unsure how to proceed. The seller does accept returns, however, I accepted an offer below ask to buy the coin and feel a little cringe when thinking of sending it back.

Other than the green on the mouth, I like the coin and the toning.

.
i agree about liking the coin otherwise.

you could comment to the seller that the pics were insufficient to show a major problem with the coin, if they were.

idk the vaule offhand but iirc, these are like 20-30 right? probably not much margin to begin with and shipping both ways will wipe out any value. if you do regular purchases with this seller, i'd just eat it. too small value to make a big deal but i'd for sure mention, if the pics were better to allow you to have seen that green and a lot of it, you would not have bought the coin at the price you did, even discounted. thankfully the toning isnt' nicer than it is or it would really sting.

jesbroken

If the pvc did not appear in the seller's photo, I would return it. If it does show, I would consider I made an error and keep it.
Jim

291fifth

Why did anyone bother slabbing it, let alone sending it in for a sticker? All I see is a melt value Franklin.

cameonut2011

It’s definitely PVC. I’m not sure how high CAC’s bid level is but I would consider selling it to them.

Edited: I didn’t read carefully to see this is a new purchase. If within the return period a return is in order (unless CAC’s bid is higher than your purchase price - I’ve had that happen on occasion).

LanceNewmanOCC

@291fifth said:
Why did anyone bother slabbing it, let alone sending it in for a sticker? All I see is a melt value Franklin.

.
maybe trying for FBL?

coulda been part of a bulk submission?

of course people send stuff in all the time due to lack of familiarity of how to assess conditions of coins across the board, plus the trends of grading opinions as well.

Cougar1978

It’s called tuition. The green stuff on coin likely PVC. I would say it’s most likely a coin that went bad in the holder. Now as far as before the sticker or not? Doesn’t matter the coin is dog.

Just get rid of it. Start it on eBay at 99c perhaps somebody will buy the sticker. Don’t think it will even get slab cost. Hope you did not pay too much for it. ROFL somebody would pay money get that stickered.

CPG shows retail MV for it $27 / $38 CAC. But w the prob get 9.95 on the bay?

jesbroken

If folks will send in parkinglot lincolns, then they will send in anything.
Jim

lilolme

Agree with others and it could have developed in holder as cougar1978 mentioned (I just am not sure how long it takes or how long it has been in the holder). Also if nothing was done to it before slabbing then it could have a layer of PVC covering the surface. Sometimes it can just lay there for a long time and others it seems to coagulate (pool together) and cause problems.
Also it does not always look green. It can have a light brown look or hazy look when a thin layer. Tilt that coin under a good light to almost on edge and see if any film, especially greenish, can be seen. Almost looks like it in seller photo on shoulder and that hazy look on left side is suspect to me.

airplanenut

@jesbroken said:
If folks will send in parkinglot lincolns, then they will send in anything.
Jim

But those are valuable errors!

amwldcoin

Somebody told me JA has 1/4" thick glasses! Maybe he should clean them more often!

emeraldATV

"Ah forget about it".
Ask for better pic's like yours if possible.
My overall view of the coin, expect the unexpected.
Also, don't look a gift horse in the mouth. Right ?

BryceM

Hmmmm. CAC is usually pretty good as recognizing PVC. I've had a few coins come back over the years with sticky notes indicating such. Perhaps they don't scrutinize low-value coins as closely???

As for this coin, I'd certainly contact the seller and mention the problem. Then let him make the next move. Most sellers would be decent enough to accept the return of a coin with issues. Or keep it, or crack it and dip it, or sell it.

Personally, I'd crack it out and acetone it. The green stuff isn't too hard to see, but learn to recognize the more widespread weird sheen that PVC causes. Look at it under different light sources before and after. Use it as an educational experience.

gtstang

Send it back. Offer to cover their shipping cost if that would make you feel better about it.
You'll never be able to look at this coin and not see that.
This certainly isn't the first cac coin I have seen that I have wondered why does this coin have a cac sticker.
Always look at the coin carefully and ask questions if possible.
Never 100% expect the coin to be top of the grade even if it has been stickered.

lkenefic

FWIW... the PVC is definitely there but I don't see it in the seller's picture. That, in my mind, is enough to prompt the return and you don't need to feel bad about it.

If you don't want to deal with the hassle of a return, I can certainly understand that. If that's the case, I'd crack it and give it an acetone bath.

I guess it comes down to how you want your collection to be presented... if you don't mind raw, or if you prefer to have everything slabbed and stickered... heck, that's what you paid for!

ShaunBC5

Whoever sent this coin to be graded was assuredly hoping for something better. In hand, apart from the green, is it a super nice 64? Maybe something that grew and turned green after grading/stickering?

davewesen

sell it to CAC

Project Numismatics

Did you look up the cert # on the CAC website? Are you sure it’s CAC?

MFeld

Under the circumstances provided, if I’d bought that coin, I’d put it up for sale on eBay at no reserve, note the PVC issue and hope for the best.

hfjacinto

You can try for the PCGS guarantee and a grade review. I did it with NGC, they took care of a coin that had issues

Read Here.

https://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=394916

Sometimes its on us to get it fixed. The grading company should have seen this as should CAC. We buy the slab as we are promised a grade, if the coin isn't that grad, its on us to push back on the grading companies.

My coin went from this:

To this:

ricko

I would contact the seller and tell them what you have found (send pictures). They may say to return the coin. If not, sell it with disclosure. A third option, (one I would not bother with) would be to send it to PCGS for restoration... but you are just adding more expense to a coin not worth it. Cheers, RickO

hfjacinto

Guys, PCGS has a Guarantee, this should have been caught, this coin should have been body bagged, send it to PCGS to get it resolved.

https://www.pcgs.com/guarantee

See my post above.

logger7

@hfjacinto said:
You can try for the PCGS guarantee and a grade review. I did it with NGC, they took care of a coin that had issues

Read Here.

https://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=394916

Sometimes its on us to get it fixed. The grading company should have seen this as should CAC. We buy the slab as we are promised a grade, if the coin isn't that grad, its on us to push back on the grading companies.

My coin went from this:

To this:

I liked it before the conservation.

Since there is not much money involved in the Franklin, I'd just keep it as it is an inexpensive learning experience and PCGS and cac certified so you have two major companies standing behind it. No hurry.

LanceNewmanOCC

to be fair to pcgs and cac, someone did make the valid point the crude COULD have grown in the slab. it looks like an older enough generation that this is at least POSSIBLE. cac has been around long enough that the stuff could have grown since stickered as well. we'll never really know.

it seems like i recall somewhere down in the belly of the archives, someone either posted or showed a light (perhaps a simple black light) that can shine on coins to make the green stuff pop like glow in the dark markers/paint. ive always wondered if in the grading room they have stations set up to test for stuff like that since it can be done so quickly.

i also wonder if what i posted has something to do with the tpg being so sticky about various guarantees as the language has changed a noticeable amount in the past several years. can't always see microscopic surface contaminants and due to various storage methods across the country/world, something mostly benign could be significantly exacerbated by the end-users.

should a guarantee hold for any possible scenario in all of existence? the world may never know.

telephoto1

I'm not convinced it's PVC. I think this was either a dipped coin that was improperly rinsed or a natural coin that was stored in a high humidity/moisture environment...and the toning and verdigris grew on it post slabbing and post bean. That said, how much time are you willing to put into an uber common coin?

Connecticoin

The green spots probably appeared in the holder after it was graded and CAC'd. I would just crack it and give it a long soak in acetone. The coin is cheap enough, and then could be a good album coin if the green stuff disappears.

The PCGS value of the coin is $30, which is less than the cost of slabbing + CAC. Why it was sent to CAC is kind of baffling.

JBK

That coin was already someone else's "tuition" long before AR got it.

I wonder how much total tuition that lowly 1961 Franklin has charged along the way. 🤔

jmlanzaf

@telephoto1 said:
I'm not convinced it's PVC. I think this was either a dipped coin that was improperly rinsed or a natural coin that was stored in a high humidity/moisture environment...and the toning and verdigris grew on it post slabbing and post bean. That said, how much time are you willing to put into an uber common coin?

THIS!

Not everything green is PVC. However, even if it is, that coin isn't worth the cost of postage to send it in for evaluation. You would just be throwing good money after bad.

Aspie_Rocco

Thank you all for the insight, suggestions, and advice. I think I will just pay the postage return it. Regardless of the outcome this situation has been a valuable learning experience

cameonut2011

@telephoto1 said:
I'm not convinced it's PVC. I think this was either a dipped coin that was improperly rinsed or a natural coin that was stored in a high humidity/moisture environment...and the toning and verdigris grew on it post slabbing and post bean. That said, how much time are you willing to put into an uber common coin?

Toning and verdigris are surface reactions involving the metal. The green would be a part of the metal. Here it looks the residue is merely sitting on the metal.

I’m open to other interpretations but the fact that two posters (you and 1 agreeing poster) makes me curious. Have you ever seen dip residue turn that shade of bright green? I haven’t. I’ve seen blacks, various orange-orange brown shades, and various shades of brown but not bright green.

braddick

@Aspie_Rocco said:

@Namvet69 said:
Wow, that's very nasty looking green pvc? Whatcha gonna do? Send it back? Or? Thanks for sharing. Peace Roy

I am unsure how to proceed. The seller does accept returns, however, I accepted an offer below ask to buy the coin and feel a little cringe when thinking of sending it back.

Other than the green on the mouth, I like the coin and the toning.

On pure speculation, it is possible the seller took your low offer as he also saw the issues.
I wouldn't be embarrassed to ask for and receive a return on that one.
Otherwise, an interesting keepsake.

telephoto1

Seeing a good hi res video might answer the questions

Connecticoin

@Aspie_Rocco said:
Thank you all for the insight, suggestions, and advice. I think I will just pay the postage return it. Regardless of the outcome this situation has been a valuable learning experience

Yeah if you can still return it, that is the best option.

hfjacinto

I'm still confused? The coin has an issue, the grading company and CAC didn't catch why are you not sending it back to PCGS to make you whole. The Grading company should honor their warranty.

hfjacinto

@logger7 said:
I liked it before the conservation.

Since there is not much money involved in the Franklin, I'd just keep it as it is an inexpensive learning experience and PCGS and cac certified so you have two major companies standing behind it. No hurry.

Huh? so you liked the coin better with crude on it? Remind me to not buy from you.

Omegaraptor

@hfjacinto said:
Guys, PCGS has a Guarantee, this should have been caught, this coin should have been body bagged, send it to PCGS to get it resolved.

https://www.pcgs.com/guarantee

See my post above.

PCGS guarantee doesn't cover environmentally damaged or PVC affected coins of this nature, unfortunately.

cameonut2011

@hfjacinto said:
I'm still confused? The coin has an issue, the grading company and CAC didn't catch why are you not sending it back to PCGS to make you whole. The Grading company should honor their warranty.

PCGS has created many exceptions to the guarantee and PVC is one of them. You would have to submit it to PCGS, and they would charge you $25 to review it only to tell you too bad. That’s throwing good money after bad.

I suggested CAC for a reason. Given the value of the coin, I do think JA would buy it and crack it to permanently take it off the market.

hfjacinto

Well that’s a pretty bad exclusion. Isn’t the 3rd party grader supposed to check coins for environmental damage?

Oldhoopster

@hfjacinto said:
Well that’s a pretty bad exclusion. Isn’t the 3rd party grader supposed to check coins for environmental damage?

The problem with the PVC plasticizer residue is that it can be on a coin but not noticeable for some period of time. The residue may have been on the coin but not visible to PCGS or CAC when submitted. The green corrosion byproducts can show up later.

Short of rinsing every coin in acetone (which the aren't going to do) there's not much a TPG can do.

TurtleCat

@hfjacinto said:
Well that’s a pretty bad exclusion. Isn’t the 3rd party grader supposed to check coins for environmental damage?

When it is evident at the time of submission. How can you say it was evident when they saw it?

logger7

@hfjacinto said:

@logger7 said:
I liked it before the conservation.

Since there is not much money involved in the Franklin, I'd just keep it as it is an inexpensive learning experience and PCGS and cac certified so you have two major companies standing behind it. No hurry.

Huh? so you liked the coin better with crude on it? Remind me to not buy from you.

The coin looks dull and lifeless after the conservation compared to the prior picture.

hfjacinto

@logger7 said:

The coin looks dull and lifeless after the conservation compared to the prior picture.

Ok, not that I agree. The coin looks the same, although the exposure was higher on the 2nd picture , but I’m not going to argue.

jmlanzaf

@hfjacinto said:
I'm still confused? The coin has an issue, the grading company and CAC didn't catch why are you not sending it back to PCGS to make you whole. The Grading company should honor their warranty.

The coin isn't worth the price of sending it in for evaluation. Such a coin wasn't really worth sending it to get the guarantee in the 1st place.