Should "Fakes" be Holdered?
DisneyFan
Posts: 2,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
The Crackout Gone Wrong discussion made me wonder (given that they were submitted for grading in the first place).
Should "Fakes" be Holdered?
This is a public poll: others will see what you voted for.
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You pays your money, as long as it's properly labeled, a good reference source, just to name a few. Are all major tpgs gonna participate? Peace Roy
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I have a holdered fake. ICG will holder some types of counterfeit coins.
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
I would holder better quality and more deceptive fakes but most Chinese counterfeits are so bad they wouldn’t be worth it.
Collector
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PCGS grades and slabs the so-called New Haven Restrike Fugio Cents which are not restrikes and they are counterfeits.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
They'll improve, like if they used culled but correct melted coinage silver instead of whatever white metal they use these days to imitate silver. I bought a couple dozen Chinese fakes out of San Fransico a decade ago for enlightenment. In 20 more years our heirs in this hobby are screwed. I think the Counterfeit invasion should be documented, slabbed as such with true views so others can learn from them. Its all a part of our hobby. No body bags.
This one apparently has trueviews. I’d love it in an omega pcgs holder.
I think that they should be holdered, including a very recognizable insert, like the ICG label.
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Since there is no refund on the submission cost for the coin sure.
Pocket Change Inspector
I have several; one of my best "Chinese counterfeits":
If I, had it my way the fakes and or counterfeits would be holdered in some futuristic material you can't crack it out of. I'd like that. But all told yes, I feel they should all be holdered and left that way for the world to see.
Contemporary counterfeits which were made to be spent should be slabbed with "COUNTERFIT" on the label. Modern counterfeits such as added mintmarks and the crap coming in from China should not be slabbed although many are already housed in counterfeit PCGS slabs.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
No because it takes long enough for real coins to get holdered ....
If there is a demand for it (and money to be made) I suspect more TPGs will eventually do it.
I do not want to reward something that is not the real McCoy. A submission (reject) label would suffice IMO.
Isn't an 18th century counterfeit of greater numismatic significance than a 21st century real coin?
Hmmm, thought I voted the should be holdered. Must have pushed the wrong button
I have an entire box of 20 or more of ICG slabbed electrotypes, cast and struck counterfeits.
Being in the holder is for education and I think adds to the piece.
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
They can holder what they want. They don't have to answer to anyone.
What would be the point? Being holdered does not prevent someone to remove it and sell it as genuine. I feel if it is counterfeit, it should be stamped with a C and returned. If there is a better reason to encapsulate it, then still stamp it with a C. JMO
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Somehow I don't think the delay is at the "holdering" stage.
Doesn't that depend on your ethics? : )
Are we considering Carr's to be fakes?
Just curious, do people send Carr's in for grading?
The example label was
Should it be holdered?
So it is an added mintmark. Wouldn't this be an altered authentic coin, not necessarily a counterfeit?
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
No, I don't think so.
I mean who am I going to impress with a graded, slabbed, fake coin?
Hey Billy look at this MS70 Fake coin! Billy, how much is it worth? Me, well, nothing, its a fake! Billy, its really a nice fake I guess.
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
I believe anacs does as well
Some electrotypes were made by the mint for collectors - I wouldn't mind having mine holdered.
Not as a counterfeit, no. Basically, because it isn't a counterfeit. It's a real coin, merely altered.
Should it be holdered as an altered coin? Yes.
no it should be destroyed
Basically, because it isn't a counterfeit. It's a real coin, merely altered.
In the eyes of the coin hobby, it is most definitely a counterfeit even though it was created using a real coin. Just check the label on the body bag where it says "COUNTERFEIT".
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Anacs will not grade counterfeits, only ICG. I had asked Anacs when I tried to get the Hennley Nickel graded.
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
fwiw, pcgs crossed this threshold long ago.
myself and others have posted counterfeits and private restrikes (whether they can be deemed counterfeits is another discussion) in pcgs holders. (it is a love/hate thing for the masses i'd guess)
it would be neat if they holdered more of the older ones (perhaps even the micro o if the wound isn't too sore). i had a bit more to say but it just completely escaped me. (lots of thread on this topic exist anyway but not sure the pics survived the coding changes)
clarification: dcarr material ive heard anacs grades them. sorry for any confusion
Yes, I saw the label; it's WRONG, though. This is not a counterfeit coin any more than a hobo nickel is. Altered for a different reason than a hobo nickel? I'll grant you that, but it is still an altered coin, not a fake.
An added mintmark is intended to deceive while engraving a nickel is not. Big difference.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Good point!
Early on when I first started the process of searching for phony SVDB's I was called out several times for using counterfeit as a generalized term for fake or phony vs "altered" so I too thought it very odd for a PCGS tag note an altered coin as "Counterfeit"
"I Prefer Dangerous Freedom Over Peaceful Slavery"
Thomas Jefferson!
Sorry but a resounding no from me. Placing fakes/counterfeits into TPG holders gives them an air of pseudo-legitimacy that they do not deserve. What next? CACed fakes? Fake registry sets?
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Does PCGS slab Machin's Mills counterfeits?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
PCGS could create a red label for these instead of the usual blue to help make them stand out.
No.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
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since it will never happen, i've learned to just enjoy them (for my part) BUT if we could actually accomplish such a thing, i'd be for it (minus educational/training sets) (and fully respect people's desire to despise all of the).
since we'll never accomplish such a feat (destroying them all), i personally do enjoy seeing the hennings/micro o & other designated pieces, especially some of the stuff burfle posted labeled in custom holders but i am under no delusion as most if not all of the fakes we see were/are intended to rip someone off and ironically passed through commerce successfully until someone identified it/them for what they are. (i feel there is a deeper irony/conversation here)
i do appreciate those at airports/shipping centers (ports or otherwise) that destroy the fakes they catch coming into the country, shoes, car parts, coins, guns, whatever. their staff dedicated to such a task must be working overtime from what i've read/watched.
As part of educating new folks into the hobby, fakes should definitely be holdered.
cascadecoins.com , Cascade Coins eBay Items , buffalonickelclub.org
I voted “no.” I don’t want to encourage or create a new market for them as it might cause more counterfeits to be created for the sole reason to get slabbed and sold. I think counterfeits and altered coins should be placed in a “body bag” with label and if they are modern counterfeits/altered coins they should receive a stamped “C” on the coin so they don’t get recirculated as authentic to potential new victims. The vintage contemporary counterfeits can be left un-stamped as they are considered collectible in their own right.
I'm sort of on the fence on this issue. I understand the inclination to want all counterfeit coins to be identified as such, but what's to prevent some "enterprising" person from cracking them out, remediating the "problem" with the now known counterfeit, and then trying to resell the coin as something it's not (ie. genuine).
On the other hand, I had a recent experience with a quarter eagle that would have me questioning the action of stamping a coin with "C" (ir. damaging the coin). I could see flagging the piece in some other manner for reconsideration, but stamping it seems a bit extreme. In the case of my quarter eagle, it was just my crappy photographic skills/equipment that prevented accurate assessment, and I believe PCGS got it right in the long run... but on those rare occasions where the "stars align" and a wrong decision is made, I wouldn't want to intentionally damage a coin that didn't warrant it... bigger problem in that case...
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i'm not pushing for them to be any more than they are but i'll accept if they start doing it more BUT i just wanted to comment that the odds of taking some of them out of holders to trick someone else would be prohibited by the value for the collectable type as it is so high, that there isn't too much a scammer could use one for, other than maybe source pieces to make more fakes/dies from and they can do that whether a coin is in a holder or not. fwiw
i personally would like the whole issue separated into pre-72 (whatever the HPA specifies) and post-72. the pre is usually pretty neat looking (while significant premiums), made of even neater compositions (even whackie at times) and has history while the new "junk' is simply mass-produced by a bunch of non-talented and greedy numbnutzs. my 2c
don't take a lot of my posts as for or against. i enjoy the debate/analysis.
... so if the counterfeit gets holdered, they'd go for some premium over a non-holdered counterfeit, thus making it a less cost effective business model? ...I suppose... I certainly don't want to make life easier on the counterfeiters and if there's something that can be done to throw hurdles in front of them, I'm for it!
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Personally, I think it's a stretch to say a "fake" in holder is worth more than a "fake" outside a holder. I think there are more worthwhile items to collect. I'm not saying I would knowingly submit a "fake" coin to get a holder. I'm just referring to those who have been surprised to find their coin is a "fake."
I like the idea of a "fake" in a holder so that we know what it is. There is nothing to lose by being in a holder. If someone wants to have a business model of cracking out "fakes" and reselling them as genuine, well that's sad.
Yes.