An Overton question about the 1818

Manorcourtman

Overton question

Pnies20

It is a die state. A later state with more advanced die cracks seen on the 104a.

That’s how simple people like me explain it, anyways.

COCollector

@Manorcourtman said:
I noticed nobody recognizes the 1818 104b at least at the grading services. Can someone explain why to this novice! Is it not a true Overton variety?...

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1818 O-104b is not mentioned in the 5th edition of "U.S. Early Half Dollar Die Varieties 1794 - 1836" (Parsley).

I'm guessing that'd be why grading services don't recognize it. Not yet anyway.

FYI, 104a is definitely in the 5th edition. And a quick search found this example:

https://coins.ha.com/itm/bust-half-dollars/1818-50c-ms67-ngc/a/1124-2420.s?hdnJumpToLot=1&x=0&y=0

COCollector

Here's an old discussion you might find interesting: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/981641/another-recent-cbh-purchase-with-lots-of-neat-die-cracks-1818-o-104b

Herb_T

@Manorcourtman said:
I noticed nobody recognizes the 1818 104b at least at the grading services. Can someone explain why to this novice! Is it not a true Overton variety? And is it really an R6 in your opinion? It’s one of my favorite coins in the series with all the die cracks.

As I understand it, while it will be a formally acknowledged as a variety, it hasn’t been yet. Seems there are more b’s than initially thought and that has contributed to it moving from a 6 to a 5. The more that are discovered the more watered down so to speak does the rarity.

Herb_T

Here is my 1818 104b….it has a Planchet flaw on the reverse. On the obverse you can see a chip in the die along the crack. Does yours look like this? I haven’t sent mine in for grading yet, waiting for the b state to be formalized.

Herb_T

I wonder if the NGC above was crossed over to PCGS? Anyone know? There is one MS67 by PCGS…they sure look similar….

Edit note: I just looked and the PCGS MS67 1818 O-104a was last sold by Stacks in 2015 but the NGC coin above was sold in 2009, so entirely possible it is the same coin.

Herb_T

pursuitofliberty

Currently, the 104 has three recognized Dies States by the BHNC, the Prime (104.1), without cracks, and two States for the 104a (104.2 and 104.3), both with check points for which cracks required.

While the 104.3 is sometimes referred to as the "b" state, no such official designation was ever made by Overton (to my knowledge). Based on conversations I have had regarding such maters, I find an official 'b' designation unlikely to exist in the immediate future based on that fact. This is, of course, my own personal opinion and understanding of the matter.

For those who are interested in Die States for Bust Halves, the BHNC has just published "Die State Progressions for Capped Bust Half Dollars 1807-1839, First Edition". Public copes can be obtained through Dave Kahn, and will be available at his table at the CSNS this weekend (Table 806/906).

lkeigwin

Here's the latest die state. Some would call O.104b. The BHNC prefers to designate it a later O.104a. R5? Maybe. A short lived die state is not always precious.

Below that is a much more fun O.104a, IMO.
Lance.

lilolme

@Herb_T said:
I wonder if the NGC above was crossed over to PCGS? Anyone know? There is one MS67 by PCGS…they sure look similar….

Edit note: I just looked and the PCGS MS67 1818 O-104a was last sold by Stacks in 2015 but the NGC coin above was sold in 2009, so entirely possible it is the same coin.

Going to the HA link provide by @COCollector and viewing the picture without the holder, the same print-like pattern (finger print like - not saying it is) can be seen in the 7 - 8 o'clock area of the obverse. It would appear to be the same one.

https://coins.ha.com/itm/bust-half-dollars/1818-50c-ms67-ngc/a/1124-2420.s?hdnJumpToLot=1&x=0&y=0