"Flattering" pictures of eBay coin - seller agrees to refund
moursund
Posts: 3,207 ✭✭✭✭✭
I just bought a coin from eBay... no returns allowed, but PCGS graded.
The eBay pictures look much nicer than the coin, in my opinion.
Ebay pictures (and there are several) look like this:
In-hand, the line is very obvious:
I can live with it, and maybe it will grow on me.
Was I a sucker?
Should I contact the seller and complain?
What do you all say?
Based on feedback below and my dissatisfaction with the coin, I reached out to the seller.
After a couple of go-arounds, and my offer to pay for the return shipping, the seller became agreeable to a refund.
This has been educational, and I will be wiser in the future.
100th pint of blood donated 7/19/2022 
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Comments
The differences look to be due to different lighting methods, rather than anything intentional. As I’m sure you already know, there’s nothing particularly unusual about.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Coin looks fine to me. A few hairlines on a well circulated coin are ok as long as the coin does not look scrubbed to death.
Ebay will make the seller do a return if you really want to return it by filing a SNAD claim. I would assume the seller would block you if you do. So it seems that you have a choice to make.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
If it's an expensive coin, I'd probably do the SNAD. If it's not, I'd chalk it up to tuition.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
Very similar in nature to the recently posted 1881-O 'guess the grade'.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
There are complaints here all the time about sellers that don't take returns, yet people keep buying from them. It's a mystery.
If it's SNAD on eBay, there have to accept a return.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Yes, that's true. But it's not clear that the coin in question here fits that description. Without the ability to see the eBay listing, there's no way to know for sure. As the OP didn't share a link and image has been cropped so as to eliminate the date, it would appear that it would be a chore to find it.
That lighter color line looking mark through liberty ruins the eye appeal of the coin go me, if that’s what you mean by scuff mark. The scratches that aren’t visible in the first picture aren’t as bad as that light line in my opinion. I’d probably just keep it but not buy from that dealer anymore if it was me though unless it was really expensive.
Mr_Spud
.
Yes, that's exactly what I mean. And as it turns out, it WAS REALLY EXPENSIVE.
I conclude that the seller deliberately obscured that line (lighting, angle, filter, airbrush...?).
I paid well over PCGS guide price for this, and I'm not satisfied.
I think it will be SNAD. SAD.
Post a link to the listing. I'm sure people would be willing to offer opinions on that.
.
Edited to remove auction details... I didn't really want to go that direction...
The pictures are showing for the original listing.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
At that price level, I would want to be satisfied. Let Ebay decide. Tell them why you are not satisfied and provide both photos to them when filing and let them make the final decision.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Just because a seller says no returns, the coin must still be fairly represented by the auction photos. Yes, I am sure you will be blocked, but that's is the seller's right to do. I was blocked once by a seller because I returned a coin that was a joke compared to the seller's photo and it was a no returns auction. I just sent this comparison photo to ebay and within an hour I was told to return the coin. Ebay allows returns for honest reasons.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Are you saying the pictures are of the same coin?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
My opinion may not be popular, or welcome ... but for today, I'll give it just the same.
Looking at the pictures I would NOT conclude the seller did anything deliberate. It's a difference in lighting, and if you thought that coin was going to be much more, you need to study more pictures. The white balance is off, the lighting is VERY diffused, and all are tilted ... but that does not mean intentionally deceiving. It may mean showing it as good as possible without photoshopping (I see all the marks on yours and their pictures.)
I think you should have passed based on two things.
You'll SNAD it, and he'll eat it, because eBay will side with you. Done and done.
But, in my eyes, you made the matter much worse. You came on here and disparage the coin and the seller.
Really dude? SNAD it and send it back but keep your mouth shut.
I've returned coins. I DO NOT discuss them here.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
I don't have an opinion on the price you paid. I do have one on buying a 'no returns' coin and wanting to return it. The light mark you object to is visible in both your picture and the seller's. Is the item "Significantly Not As Described"? eBay will almost certainly agree to whatever you claim, the seller- not so much. So, it's up to you.
edited to add... The seller has two other slabbed dollars for sale right now. It appears he's using the same photography technique for those as he did for the one in this thread.
Well said, Todd.
I was especially bothered by the accusation “I conclude that the seller deliberately obscured that line (lighting, angle, filter, airbrush...?).”. The OP should know that such differences in images can be easily explained (as you did) with no requirement of bad intent on the part of the seller. That struck me as an unfair way to avoid personal responsibility.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
As well, one might conclude that the buyer deliberately enhanced that line (lighting, angle, filter, airbrush...?). I mean- as long as we're reading minds here...
A few thoughts as an eBay seller and photographer.
First, I don’t think the photos are deliberately deceptive. The seller has a lot of listings and only a few are coins, and all the coins are shot the same way. I think the seller just doesn’t know how to shoot coins and I can accept that.
With the above said, any time something important isn’t in the photo, I believe it MUST be mentioned in the description. I’m at an advantage because while I write descriptions before I take photos, I know photography well enough that I can tell you what a photo will hide before taking the picture. Anything that may not be in the photo (or heck, anything that’s obvious but I want to be sure you’re aware of it) will get mentioned in the description. That light line is extremely distracting to me and it’s not a coin I’d buy, especially as a high ticket item. The bad photo can be excused, but not at least mentioning that line so as to give a buyer a chance to ask more or ask for more photos is unacceptable.
Now onto the issue of a SNAD. I think the seller made a mistake, but I don’t think it was so egregious that it couldn’t at least be partly an honest mistake (this isn’t an overly juiced photo, for example). The SNAD is always an option, but they always rub me the wrong way when a buyer filed one out of the blue. I would suggest simply emailing the seller first saying that distracting line wasn’t visible in the photos or described and that you wouldn’t have bought the coin if you had known about it (include your photo). As a result you’d like to return the coin. If the seller agrees, that’s it. If not, you can file a SNAD. The seller should know that you can always file a SNAD and I imagine they’ll acquiesce. But at least give them a chance to make it right before going straight to the top.
Yeah, I can see how this thread went sideways. I started it very carefully NOT mentioning the seller or showing the action details, or even the date on the coin. Sounds like a split opinion on whether SNAD is appropriate for this expensive coin, and I appreciate that not damaging the seller is important.
It's understandable, not wanting to show the listing, but how could anyone offer a relevant opinion on whether the item was SNAD without an opportunity to see the D?
I think the picture appears to have possibly been smoothed.
Edit for a more appropriate reply
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
Spanish Colonial Pillar Set
I can imagine all of those marks being lessened in the photo based on the flatness of the lighting. Also note that the coin is angled and the lower part out of focus. The mark by the star is weaker in the seller’s image, but it is by far the strongest of those marks, and it is in both photos, but at different strengths. Besides, if that’s a photoshop job, boy is that seller good at photoshop compared to photography.
His photography is not exactly expert level. Here are a couple of the non-coin items he has for sale.
It's very likely that you are correct in your assessment. I don't have much in the way of any photography knowledge but I can still appreciate what you are saying with regard to how lighting and angles can, amongst other things, greatly influence a respective image.
I guess that I am, by nature, a bit of sceptic at heart.
I will say however, although perhaps not at play here, the availability of easy to use photo editing software does make it fairly simple to manipulate photos.
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
Spanish Colonial Pillar Set
Just a few questions
1) If everything was exactly the same but the coin was $75 instead of $4,000 would you still want to return it or would you chalk it up as a learning lesson?
2) Did you get the same slab number shown in the photos?
3) Did you ask the seller for more photos or any other questions about the coin?
1 and #2 are irrelevant but #3 is very relevant.
Sorry for the large font.
Not sure how #2 is irrelevant.
If it's not the same slab number it would be SNAD.
If it is the same slab number there are 7 photos in the listing and the OP got exactly what was shown.
There are also people on here who constantly complain that they don't want to take returns... but buyers seem to want the option.
This thread is at least a little interesting based on recent threads where people swore that photos were the same (or better) than in hand. This is yet another illustration of how differences in lighting can dramatically change the view.
I believe it was not intentional photography, I can see traces of the white line in the sellers pictures. I agree you should contact the seller first to see if he will accept the return... Cheers, RickO
I think Jeremy hit the nail on the head. His suggestion to reach out to the seller before filing a SNAD is a good one.
As a seller, I never want to stick someone with a coin they didn't like, so I would take a return in this instance, however my returns are close to zero because I am able to take better pictures (even with offering free returns). However, many sellers don't take this view.
As a buyer, I would never pay a premium price for a certified coin without better photos (or seeing the coin in hand).
Aside from buyers not reading and/or respecting sellers terms, there's no reason both can't have what they want.
I agree. But you'd th8ink they'd be more sympathetic to THEIR buyers when they want to return an item.
A classic way to get back on top is to keep rolling the dice...
Might get real lucky and score another one here ( who knows, could be an entire roll of 1893 s Morgan's? 🤯)
$3,999 on a PCGS Price Guide Price of $3,000.
And part of your Box of 20.
Have you reached out to the seller?
yes, see OP... no satisfaction there.
Sorry you didn't get a better response from the seller.
I have copied your post about the seller’s reply below. What was your message to him?
I’m surprised about and disappointed in his accusation. That said, I felt the same regarding your accusation:
“I conclude that the seller deliberately obscured that line (lighting, angle, filter, airbrush...?).”
If, like you apparently were, he isn’t aware of how different coins can look in different images (even without bad intent by either photographer), I can at least understand why he might suspect foul play on your part.
“Seller's response:
_We're sorry that:
a. "you're not at all happy with the coin, and the distracting line across the face."
b. "hoped it would look as good as the photos"
We do not accept returns on professionally graded coins. Especially if their PCGS case has been tampered with.
What you've described cannot happen unless you have tampered with the case.
The only way there could be a "distracting line placed across the face, is if you took it out of the case and if you placed that distracting line on the face damaging a graded coin.
NO SELLER WOULD DESTROY THE PROPERTY THAT THEY'RE SELLING OR AFTER THEY SOLD IT!
Pictures of a coin taken within a PCGS case don't lie."
Once again, we do not accept returns and we definitely would not accept the return of an item that's been tampered with in the scenario you've described.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Agreed. Sad situation all the way around.
Based on his response, I would be curious how you approached him ... if you care to share.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Mark, I agree with you, and I should have taken care not to evidence my suspicions on this public forum.
My post to the seller I have sent in PM to you. I'm feeling crummy about this whole episode now (things I might have done better, in the purchase itself and subsequent message thread).
Thanks,
am
Deliberately or not, the listing photo was misleading. I am surprised that anyone would buy an expensive coin based on photos from a seller who will not accept returns. It just doesn't make sense not to have an in-hand examination of an expensive coin before the transaction is considered final.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
I honestly feel for the OP.
I recently purchased this coin:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/234480786350
After doing so, I had buyer's remorse. It is my fault for not thinking it through before placing an offer (that was quickly accepted). No matter what this coin looks like upon arrival (it's due in a couple of days), I am keeping it as I believe a contract is struck upon sending a "Best Offer," and that contract should be honored.
With that stated, the OP's situation is a bit different, and I think a return is warranted and should have been accepted by the seller as, unlike the coin I purchased (with all the flaws visible), the 1893-S didn't show the problem(s) that exist.
peacockcoins
THIS!
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
All things considered, the seller if full of crap to suggest the coin was tampered with. My empathy for the seller has evaporated.
.> @pursuitofliberty said:
Runaround Sue tune
Here's my story, and it's true that I'm green
It's about a Morgan that I bought unseen
I sent my money and they sent the coin
But what I saw was like a kick in the gr**n
Yeah, I should have known it from the very start
This deal will leave me with a broken heart
Now listen people so you don't get a burn
A keep away from a no return yeah
...
On August 4, 2021 @ 4:14PM
IMO, going from buying circulated coins valued under $50 to buying $4,000 coins online with less than stellar images and a "no returns" policy in under nine months is a lot like Evel Knievel jumping the Snake River. Sure, it could work out but there's an enormous potential for things to go wrong. Harry Callahan's advice seems appropriate here: "A man’s got to know his limitations." I'm sure Evel recognized what he was up against. The OP? Not so much.
I know that "no returns" sales are not popular with a lot of people, but the fact remains- eBay considers it to be a valid business policy regardless of how many people there are who might not like it and when you make a purchase, you are agreeing to abide by it as long as the seller holds up his end of the deal. So- what did the seller advertise? This is what:
Morgan 1893-S PCGS VG 08
What you See is what you Will receive
along with some historical information on the coin. There was nothing noted regarding the coin's appearance.
Did the OP receive the coin pictured in the eBay listing? You decide.
It sounds like he's interpreting "line" to mean physical damage not toning.