@lilolme said:
I am getting lost. I am saying that pre-covid (I have not been since Jan 2020 so don't know about since then) that one or both of the noted CAC "graders" would often attend the PCGS show (I only went to the ones in LV). To be clear they were Not there as a representative of CAC but on their on stuff. Is this what the question was about?
Yes but your post made it sound is if they were there representing CAC in some fashion, still I do see how it was a good business decision for them to give CAC opinions when they are not actually there to represent CAC.
They don't give cac opinions either. They are at the show with their own stuff. They won't give a cac opinion that I know of. Might tell someone if they like a coin or something but Not yes I thiink that will cac. They had a display case with their stuff and doing their own business. Hope this helps.
Oh when I mention the colored stickers this is just a general conversation about stuff and not specific to any coins that cac might have seen or seeing. Just casual conversation.
@lilolme said:
I am getting lost. I am saying that pre-covid (I have not been since Jan 2020 so don't know about since then) that one or both of the noted CAC "graders" would often attend the PCGS show (I only went to the ones in LV). To be clear they were Not there as a representative of CAC but on their on stuff. Is this what the question was about?
My question was about your post:
“That is my basic understanding but sometimes a substitute grader. Pre-covid if you went to pcgs show they were often there (maybe still). It was said they could use a green, yellow or red sticker on your slab and if you got a red one, then you were not going to get a green one.”
You made it sound as if they were doing that at the shows.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Okay, I did not intend to and didn't think that way I guess because I knew they didn't. After writing and seeing responses I now understand but when writing it was clear to me that they as an individual were attending the pcgs show on their own. But now I see that I should have stated more but I wasn't thinking outside of my head.
Hope it is clear now? And did you find the pcgs shows on the link?
@logger7 said:
I'd like to see stats on resubmission percentages, how many coins have been sent in 2, 3, 4 or more times?
Maurice Rosen had an article on cac pass rates for different grade ranges; it seemed that the MS66 coins, etc. had a higher success rate than lower grades, which led me to believe that the grading services are tougher on assigning higher grades.
I would like to see that as well.
I would also like CAC to adapt another service.
The service would be like this: For a fee, you could submit the cert number of your coin and they would look it up and see if they have already seen the coin. It would save a lot of time shipping the coin back and forth and would save CAC a lot of time not having to get the coin and review it again.
Now, there are some times where you just want to send it in for another review.
JA, are you listening..............
Like I said in my original post above
I'm just trying to make it easier for owners of coins without a CAC find out if it's through there system. I really hate putting coins in the mail and trusting that it will arrive safely
I believe that if you send a pic of the coin it should be enough to show that you own the coin. As is with PCGS, if the PO didn't remove the coin from the registry you have to wait to get the coin, take pics, and submit. If it's good enough for PCGS it should work here.
@lilolme said:
Okay, I did not intend to and didn't think that way I guess because I knew they didn't. After writing and seeing responses I now understand but when writing it was clear to me that they as an individual were attending the pcgs show on their own. But now I see that I should have stated more but I wasn't thinking outside of my head.
Hope it is clear now? And did you find the pcgs shows on the link?
Got it, thanks. I was already familiar with the shows.
When you’re posting in response to another post, you can click on “quote” underneath it, so that it appears with your reply.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Ah Thanks I see the quote now. I was doing it the hard way by high-light copy and paste.
In a previous post you mention the below and that is why I thought you didn't know of the pcgs show. Perhaps it was the naming I used of pcgs shows.
@lilolme said:
Ah Thanks I see the quote now. I was doing it the hard way by high-light copy and paste.
In a previous post you mention the below and that is why I thought you didn't know of the pcgs show. Perhaps it was the naming I used of pcgs shows.
He mentioned PCGS shows, but I haven’t heard of that, either.
I meant I hadn’t heard of the following at the shows: “Pre-covid if you went to pcgs show they were often there (maybe still). It was said they could use a green, yellow or red sticker on your slab and if you got a red one, then you were not going to get a green one.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Like I said in my original post above
I'm just trying to make it easier for owners of coins without a CAC find out if it's through there system. I really hate putting coins in the mail and trusting that it will arrive safely
I believe that if you send a pic of the coin it should be enough to show that you own the coin. As is with PCGS, if the PO didn't remove the coin from the registry you have to wait to get the coin, take pics, and submit. If it's good enough for PCGS it should work here.
I can download a photo of any coin posted anywhere. That would not prove that you own it.
Okay I finally get what you are reading out of it.
I was saying in the one sentence that they attended the pcgs shows. Probably should have started a new paragraph because the next sentence is about what cac does at cac - that is maybe give a slab a red sticker and not getting a green. It was a fun conversation.
Now it became more clear. As I said I was getting lost.
Like I said in my original post above
I'm just trying to make it easier for owners of coins without a CAC find out if it's through there system. I really hate putting coins in the mail and trusting that it will arrive safely
I believe that if you send a pic of the coin it should be enough to show that you own the coin. As is with PCGS, if the PO didn't remove the coin from the registry you have to wait to get the coin, take pics, and submit. If it's good enough for PCGS it should work here.
I can download a photo of any coin posted anywhere. That would not prove that you own it.
It's useless with all you naysayers, black-white, left-right, up-down and the like, you just can't win. I still think it would work!
I'll just continue to buy already CAC stickered coins.
What percentage of coins going through the first year received green stickers vs coins going through last year?
I would imagine that by definition the percentage passed has to keep getting smaller?
Why? Maybe submitters tend to be more selective and/or better equipped to know what to submit, now.
Probably because the learning curve didn't start in 2021. Thus, I assume that while the selectivity keeps getting better there are also many slabbed coins that are sold to collectors that keep getting resubmitted at a very low hit rate. In my very, very small universe I send in every coin I buy. Is there a need to look at the coin when I don't pay for rejects? I buy coins believing that at the price I am paying they have already been rejected but they are submitted anyway. In addition, Freight is free when walking in person. Who sends in more coins in today's hot market? Collectors or dealers? Were collectors familiar with green stickers 14 years ago?
If however, a great many raw coins are still moving to dealers then I would have to change my assumption. I have no idea how many still play the crack out game which are resubbed as new raw?
All I am saying is that the current hit rate might be closer to 30% than 40% even considering your valid point about more knowledgeable submitters..
I would like to see current stats rather than a 14 year history.
@winesteven said:
Taking @alaura22 ’s idea one step further, you can pay the nominal fee to submit the cert number on a coin you DON’T own, but are considering buying, whether from a dealer or in an auction! I truly believe if you had confidence that the coin (at least in the holder with that cert number) had never been submitted, more dealer sales, and more active auction bidding, would take place, with the buyer willing to take the risk that it may CAC or not. Right now, with no information, I pass on all of those non-CAC coins unless I’m willing to have that coin in my collection knowing that it doesn’t merit a CAC.
Steve
This would go against much of what JA has said in the past. Doing so would put a stigma on those coins already seen and they would become almost unsellable unless at a heavy discount. JA does not release the data on the coin that failed to sticker for a very good reason and many collectors would be financially harmed if he was to do what you and alaura22 are suggesting. In fact I think if JA began to sell that data it could very easily lead to a huge class action lawsuit.
Not what I suggested.
I suggested a service where you can submit the cert number to find out weather it has been through CAC. NOTE: You have to own the coin and show proof that you own the coin and for a fee, they can tell you
Steve is suggesting something else
Chances are any coin over a certain value level that has not been sequestered away in a collection for 15 years has been to cac, so one can assume a high likelihood of that. It never hurts to include a few extra coins you don't know whether they have seen as they are refunding a lot of resubmit failure coins.
Certain value? $1,000,000? $500,000? $20,000? $5,000? $500?
Draw the line when you make that type of statement
Also, what about reholders or going from 1 service to another? Sure, you can send in "proof" and the new coin, but, sometimes......(maybe they want more than just a photo? I haven't done that part of the service yet)
My experience whatever it is worth is that maybe 1 in 5 of the very pq ones I just can't understand why it does not sticker, will sticker the 2nd or 3rd time. So I have had maybe 4 or 5 of 25 reconsiderations be successful. But these were truly super great coins, most of the rejects once they come back it is pretty obvious why, and usually I knew that going in.
Best, SH
Did you submit them in the same holder? And were you hoping for a green to gold sticker?
Regrettably, even though I was accepted as a cac member a few years after they started, I still did not understand how they worked and left a lot of money on the table by not sending coins in, it would have saved me a lot of grief had I sent in expensive coins for review. Some that stand out were $20 Libs. such as an 1862 and 1863 in NGC AU55 that would very likely have passed and they would have likely made good offers on. Also an 1890-s in MS63. It is a great service if you know how to use it.
If CAC stickers A & B coins within a grade but not C coins, it would seem that out of a random sampling of slabbed coins, 66% would sticker but the stats above indicate that only 42% of submitted coins stickered. What's up with that?
An additional observation:
The coins that get submitted to CAC aren't totally random. Ones that are obviously in the C group would be less likely to be submitted, which should increase the percentage stickered over a random sampling.
Interesting stats. 1.5 million coins reviewed by CAC (this thread). Total PCGS graded 42.5 million and NGC graded 45 million (google search). Finally I have an answer to a question been pondering a long time.
Interesting stats. 1.5 million coins reviewed by CAC (this thread). Total PCGS graded 42.5 million and NGC graded 45 million (google search). Finally I have an answer to a question been pondering a long time.
I believe the VAST majority of coins graded are Modern or World coins. These are ineligible to be reviewed by CAC. Additionally, my sense is that many coins graded in the "Economy" tier, even if eligible for CAC review, usually don't get submitted. As such, it's tough to make a conclusion as to what percentage of coins that CAC expects to see have actually been submitted.
BUT, with that said, about three years ago in an interview in print in the Greysheet CAC publication, JA said something like that he believes they've seen about 90% of the "Classic" coins they will see, and that many of the current submissions at that time were coins they had previously seen and failed to pass.
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
So how much time does CAC spend on each coin? If we assume the rate of coins review is constant over 14 years, we give them 2 weeks of vacation each year, work a 40 hour week, and use the numbers in Catbert's original post, we get:
So at a uniform rate, CAC spends about 67 seconds on each coin. That means they do 429 coins per day, and 2143 per week. Again assuming constant rate with an 8 hour viewing time per day. The number of coins per day and week seem reasonable.
That is likely to be conservative and maximum viewing time. There is likely periods where more coins are viewed, or shorter work times, so on average they view a coin for probably less than a minute. If you take into account that the finalizer sometimes has to take notes to report back to sender requests for info, well, this is alot of work and also they have to be quick to keep that rate. So you can see where they are probably not going to be perfect just like the TPG's as is constantly debated. Overall I think they do pretty good for such a fast rate of evaluation. But it is what it is and to achieve the rate they have, they are not going to be perfect. But that is okay with me.............
You saved me a lot of time. I started to set up this table last night
Great job, my numbers look very close, I didn't give them 2 weeks off for vacation
You have to think that as "coin guys" they have to love their job. Looking at the best of the best. It reminds me of the job I always wanted reviewing bikini's at the beach.
Didn't get that job either........
If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
@spacehayduke
One thing to consider is, as I understand it, cac typically has 2 'graders' in the office. So during a typical week it would be 80 hours for them. However, if they all then go thru JA, then the numbers you indicated could be the time he spends after the 'graders' have previewed them for him.
@lilolme said: @spacehayduke
One thing to consider is, as I understand it, cac typically has 2 'graders' in the office. So during a typical week it would be 80 hours for them. However, if they all then go thru JA, then the numbers you indicated could be the time he spends after the 'graders' have previewed them for him.
I am assuming that both graders look at all coins, just as 2 or 3 grade each coin in an NGC or PCGS grading room before the finalizer, who for CAC is JA. But if they each only look at 1, then you double the time each coin is reviewed you are correct.
@spacehayduke said:
I am assuming that both graders look at all coins, just as 2 or 3 grade each coin in an NGC or PCGS grading room before the finalizer, who for CAC is JA. But if they each only look at 1, then you double the time each coin is reviewed you are correct.
You know I had never thought of it that way and always as each independent. But after you mentioned it, I cannot think of why I thought independent.
Perhaps only their hairdresser knows for sure.
@Aspie_Rocco said:
My success rate to date is 75% with getting green beans. I am fairly sure this will change drastically after my most recent 18 coin submission. Looking for gold beans on my 43/2 and 39 ddr, and a few scattered greens. I would honestly be thrilled with even 20% success on the current order.
WOOOOOOOOO! Just got results. 66.66% success which is a 9% drop over my last submission, but I still feel elated! 12 of 18 got beans! The not passed coins were 2 Jefferson pr66 1942, a 1936 DDO Buffalo, a Morgan; a Peace and a standing Liberty quarter. I honestly sent the failed coins as a shot in the dark
Beans include my 1943/2 MS65FS, a Stone Mountain commemorative, and a 39 DDR!!!
@Aspie_Rocco said:
My success rate to date is 75% with getting green beans. I am fairly sure this will change drastically after my most recent 18 coin submission. Looking for gold beans on my 43/2 and 39 ddr, and a few scattered greens. I would honestly be thrilled with even 20% success on the current order.
WOOOOOOOOO! Just got results. 66.66% success which is a 9% drop over my last submission, but I still feel elated! 12 of 18 got beans! The not passed coins were 2 Jefferson pr66 1942, a 1936 DDO Buffalo, a Morgan; a Peace and a standing Liberty quarter. I honestly sent the failed coins as a shot in the dark
Beans include my 1943/2 MS65FS, a Stone Mountain commemorative, and a 39 DDR!!!
.
gratz and a wonderfully diverse submission!
if you start a thread showcasing them, please ding me.
@Aspie_Rocco said:
My success rate to date is 75% with getting green beans. I am fairly sure this will change drastically after my most recent 18 coin submission. Looking for gold beans on my 43/2 and 39 ddr, and a few scattered greens. I would honestly be thrilled with even 20% success on the current order.
WOOOOOOOOO! Just got results. 66.66% success which is a 9% drop over my last submission, but I still feel elated! 12 of 18 got beans! The not passed coins were 2 Jefferson pr66 1942, a 1936 DDO Buffalo, a Morgan; a Peace and a standing Liberty quarter. I honestly sent the failed coins as a shot in the dark
Beans include my 1943/2 MS65FS, a Stone Mountain commemorative, and a 39 DDR!!!
.
gratz and a wonderfully diverse submission!
if you start a thread showcasing them, please ding me.
Yeah, would love to see them up close
Congrats, seems like you did very well
@DollarAfterDollar said:
You have to think that as "coin guys" they have to love their job. Looking at the best of the best. It reminds me of the job I always wanted reviewing bikini's at the beach.
Didn't get that job either........
I lived your dream, Cabana boy at the Doral hotel in Miami Beach for 3 years. High school years sure were a lot of fun
@Aspie_Rocco said:
My success rate to date is 75% with getting green beans. I am fairly sure this will change drastically after my most recent 18 coin submission. Looking for gold beans on my 43/2 and 39 ddr, and a few scattered greens. I would honestly be thrilled with even 20% success on the current order.
WOOOOOOOOO! Just got results. 66.66% success which is a 9% drop over my last submission, but I still feel elated! 12 of 18 got beans! The not passed coins were 2 Jefferson pr66 1942, a 1936 DDO Buffalo, a Morgan; a Peace and a standing Liberty quarter. I honestly sent the failed coins as a shot in the dark
Congrats, those are very nice results. I was very happy with my recent 40 coin submission.
626,775 coins received the Green Sticker (41.8%) 7,573 Gold Sticker (.5%) 865,652 rejected or passed for a sticker (57.7%)
I don't know how anyone else interprets this, but I see it as saying that thus far sending a coin to CAC is little more than a 50/50 proposition. I find that discouraging because my inference is that it means submitters tend to be sub-par graders and are likely taking a crap-shot at a sticker due to the risk/reward: low cost of a submission and the increased coin value perceived by the overall market.
During the past 5-10 years the mantra from 20 years ago has changed. Previously it was that "If it's not slabbed there must be a reason" and now it's become "If it's not stickered there must be a reason" which is assumed if not spoken. Past his skill as a Numismatist and coin grader I think that JA has been overlooked as a marketing strategist.
@Maywood said: 626,775 coins received the Green Sticker (41.8%) 7,573 Gold Sticker (.5%) 865,652 rejected or passed for a sticker (57.7%)
I don't know how anyone else interprets this, but I see it as saying that thus far sending a coin to CAC is little more than a 50/50 proposition. I find that discouraging because my inference is that it means submitters tend to be sub-par graders and are likely taking a crap-shot at a sticker due to the risk/reward: low cost of a submission and the increased coin value perceived by the overall market.
During the past 5-10 years the mantra from 20 years ago has changed. Previously it was that "If it's not slabbed there must be a reason" and now it's become "If it's not stickered there must be a reason" which is assumed if not spoken. Past his skill as a Numismatist and coin grader I think that JA has been overlooked as a marketing strategist.
And most here don't seem to think it doesn't damage the PCGS Brand.
@Maywood said: 626,775 coins received the Green Sticker (41.8%) 7,573 Gold Sticker (.5%) 865,652 rejected or passed for a sticker (57.7%)
I don't know how anyone else interprets this, but I see it as saying that thus far sending a coin to CAC is little more than a 50/50 proposition. I find that discouraging because my inference is that it means submitters tend to be sub-par graders and are likely taking a crap-shot at a sticker due to the risk/reward: low cost of a submission and the increased coin value perceived by the overall market.
During the past 5-10 years the mantra from 20 years ago has changed. Previously it was that "If it's not slabbed there must be a reason" and now it's become "If it's not stickered there must be a reason" which is assumed if not spoken. Past his skill as a Numismatist and coin grader I think that JA has been overlooked as a marketing strategist.
Sounds about right. From their website, a green sticker means that the coin is "solid" for the grade, Statistically, if the grading system supported fractions, an MS63 coin (for example) would include any coin that graded 62.50 - 63.49. Assuming an even distribution, CAC is green stickering everything that would be roughly 63.00 to 63.49, or arguably 63.10 to 63.49.
@Maywood said: 626,775 coins received the Green Sticker (41.8%) 7,573 Gold Sticker (.5%) 865,652 rejected or passed for a sticker (57.7%)
I don't know how anyone else interprets this, but I see it as saying that thus far sending a coin to CAC is little more than a 50/50 proposition. I find that discouraging because my inference is that it means submitters tend to be sub-par graders and are likely taking a crap-shot at a sticker due to the risk/reward: low cost of a submission and the increased coin value perceived by the overall market.
During the past 5-10 years the mantra from 20 years ago has changed. Previously it was that "If it's not slabbed there must be a reason" and now it's become "If it's not stickered there must be a reason" which is assumed if not spoken. Past his skill as a Numismatist and coin grader I think that JA has been overlooked as a marketing strategist.
And most here don't seem to think it doesn't damage the PCGS Brand.
I join most here in not seeing the damage to the PCGS brand (or NGC for that matter). There is no CAC 'overgraded' sticker. Green sticker means the coin is strong for the grade. Gold is coin undergraded, which in my view shows conservative grading on the TPGs part - as a collector I would want that conservatism. Then there are the symbiotic aspects in that every coin reviewed by CAC has the beneficial effect of verifying the coin remains certified and is valid in terms of its relevant TPG grade population.
And most here don't seem to think it doesn't damage the PCGS Brand.
Perhaps you meant to say "And most here seem to think it doesn't damage the PCGS Brand."
If my interpretation is correct of what you meant to say, then I agree with you - most here seem to think (that CAC) doesn't damage the PCGS Brand! And that's because CAC acknowledges that a coin they examine and not give a sticker can indeed be properly graded, but just not solid for the grade!
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
Sounds about right. From their website, a green sticker means that the coin is "solid" for the grade, Statistically, if the grading system supported fractions, an MS63 coin (for example) would include any coin that graded 62.50 - 63.49. Assuming an even distribution, CAC is green stickering everything that would be roughly 63.00 to 63.49, or arguably 63.10 to 63.49.
I disagree with your interpretation:
Using your decimal system, my understanding is a coin graded around 62.8 - 62.99 would not be graded by the TPG's as 63, but potentially as 62+.
My understanding is each grade consists of coins in the lower part of the grade ("C" coins), the mid part of the grade ("B" coins), and the top part of the grade ("A" coins). Using a very rough decimal system, my understanding is CAC will not sticker coins in the 63.0 - 63.4 range ("C" coins), but will sticker those coins it deems 63.41 - 63.99). We can legitimately quibble about the end of the "C" range and beginning of the "B" range.
Just my Two Cents.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
IMO it's about the marketplace. The market has many tiers but specifically a CAC coin is positioned as premium and priced accordingly.
This is important because premium material within a specific grade should be differentiated. Collectors can make a judgement and recognize the nuances of a coins condition/preservation/aesthetics etc.
More knowledge and expertise is good for the hobby.
Sounds about right. From their website, a green sticker means that the coin is "solid" for the grade, Statistically, if the grading system supported fractions, an MS63 coin (for example) would include any coin that graded 62.50 - 63.49. Assuming an even distribution, CAC is green stickering everything that would be roughly 63.00 to 63.49, or arguably 63.10 to 63.49.
I disagree with your interpretation:
Using your decimal system, my understanding is a coin graded around 62.8 - 62.99 would not be graded by the TPG's as 63, but potentially as 62+.
My understanding is each grade consists of coins in the lower part of the grade ("C" coins), the mid part of the grade ("B" coins), and the top part of the grade ("A" coins). Using a very rough decimal system, my understanding is CAC will not sticker coins in the 63.0 - 63.4 range ("C" coins), but will sticker those coins it deems 63.41 - 63.99). We can legitimately quibble about the end of the "C" range and beginning of the "B" range.
Just my Two Cents.
Steve
You're basically saying the same thing although you broke it into 3 tiers. I don't want to debate the spectrum which I contemplated 63.00 to 63.99 for my example but figured that didn't really work when you got to MS70. Regardless, the concept is the same, that each numerical grade is indeed a spectrum, and mathematically half will be below average and have will be above average. And it's clear, CAC will green sticker most of the above average coins.
Yes, but I believe they will also sticker "average" coins as solid for the grade (not only above average coins), as I believe "B" coins are average coins for the grade, and they get stickered.
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
I pass on all of those non-CAC coins unless I’m willing to have that coin in my collection knowing that it doesn’t merit a CAC. a coin they examine and not give a sticker can indeed be properly graded, but just not solid for the grade.
It seems to me that if CAC has prevented anyone from buying what are properly graded coins, or even considering them closely, that CAC has somehow affected that TPG's brand. It is the phenomenon that has bothered and intrigued me ever since the inception of this service: that small green or gold sticker now has a pre-eminent position in the marketplace, seemingly more important than the TPG or even the coin itself. There are probably legions of collectors who can't admit it, even to themselves, but the CAC sticker is the deciding factor in purchases.
I choose to not have coins in my collection that are "C" coins, or have had certain post mint treatments to its surfaces that are acceptable to the TPG's, but not acceptable to CAC.
By the way, very gentle and slight dipping of lustrous coins is acceptable to the TPG's AND to CAC.
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@Maywood said: I pass on all of those non-CAC coins unless I’m willing to have that coin in my collection knowing that it doesn’t merit a CAC. a coin they examine and not give a sticker can indeed be properly graded, but just not solid for the grade.
It seems to me that if CAC has prevented anyone from buying what are properly graded coins, or even considering them closely, that CAC has somehow affected that TPG's brand. It is the phenomenon that has bothered and intrigued me ever since the inception of this service: that small green or gold sticker now has a pre-eminent position in the marketplace, seemingly more important than the TPG or even the coin itself. There are probably legions of collectors who can't admit it, even to themselves, but the CAC sticker is the deciding factor in purchases.
Well in the end, the CAC sticker is just a way of documenting a second opinion. Fundamentally there is nothing wrong with that.
As far as only buying CAC coins, I think it is foolish overall. Again back to my spectrum or the A, B, and C tier coins. The only thing the sticker should do is help you decide how much to pay and keep you from paying A money for a C coin. There's nothing wrong with a C coin, especially if you can't afford the A coin. Some collectors would prefer otherwise, but I'd rather have an MS63 slab that I agree with that doesn't CAC than an MS62 CAC.
Edited to add: Wouldn't it be a hoot if NGC or PCGS started slabbing the other's slabs (ie, PCGS would encapsulate an NGC slab)? That would be almost the same thing as CAC although the second TPG wouldn't be able to actually handle the coin but you'd get two numeric grades.
Comments
Yes but your post made it sound is if they were there representing CAC in some fashion, still I do see how it was a good business decision for them to give CAC opinions when they are not actually there to represent CAC.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
They don't give cac opinions either. They are at the show with their own stuff. They won't give a cac opinion that I know of. Might tell someone if they like a coin or something but Not yes I thiink that will cac. They had a display case with their stuff and doing their own business. Hope this helps.
Oh when I mention the colored stickers this is just a general conversation about stuff and not specific to any coins that cac might have seen or seeing. Just casual conversation.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
My question was about your post:
“That is my basic understanding but sometimes a substitute grader. Pre-covid if you went to pcgs show they were often there (maybe still). It was said they could use a green, yellow or red sticker on your slab and if you got a red one, then you were not going to get a green one.”
You made it sound as if they were doing that at the shows.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Okay, I did not intend to and didn't think that way I guess because I knew they didn't. After writing and seeing responses I now understand but when writing it was clear to me that they as an individual were attending the pcgs show on their own. But now I see that I should have stated more but I wasn't thinking outside of my head.
Hope it is clear now? And did you find the pcgs shows on the link?
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
Like I said in my original post above
I'm just trying to make it easier for owners of coins without a CAC find out if it's through there system. I really hate putting coins in the mail and trusting that it will arrive safely
I believe that if you send a pic of the coin it should be enough to show that you own the coin. As is with PCGS, if the PO didn't remove the coin from the registry you have to wait to get the coin, take pics, and submit. If it's good enough for PCGS it should work here.
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
Got it, thanks. I was already familiar with the shows.
When you’re posting in response to another post, you can click on “quote” underneath it, so that it appears with your reply.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Ah Thanks I see the quote now. I was doing it the hard way by high-light copy and paste.
In a previous post you mention the below and that is why I thought you didn't know of the pcgs show. Perhaps it was the naming I used of pcgs shows.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
I meant I hadn’t heard of the following at the shows: “Pre-covid if you went to pcgs show they were often there (maybe still). It was said they could use a green, yellow or red sticker on your slab and if you got a red one, then you were not going to get a green one.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I can download a photo of any coin posted anywhere. That would not prove that you own it.
Okay I finally get what you are reading out of it.
I was saying in the one sentence that they attended the pcgs shows. Probably should have started a new paragraph because the next sentence is about what cac does at cac - that is maybe give a slab a red sticker and not getting a green. It was a fun conversation.
Now it became more clear. As I said I was getting lost.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
It's useless with all you naysayers, black-white, left-right, up-down and the like, you just can't win. I still think it would work!
I'll just continue to buy already CAC stickered coins.
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
Probably because the learning curve didn't start in 2021. Thus, I assume that while the selectivity keeps getting better there are also many slabbed coins that are sold to collectors that keep getting resubmitted at a very low hit rate. In my very, very small universe I send in every coin I buy. Is there a need to look at the coin when I don't pay for rejects? I buy coins believing that at the price I am paying they have already been rejected but they are submitted anyway. In addition, Freight is free when walking in person. Who sends in more coins in today's hot market? Collectors or dealers? Were collectors familiar with green stickers 14 years ago?
If however, a great many raw coins are still moving to dealers then I would have to change my assumption. I have no idea how many still play the crack out game which are resubbed as new raw?
All I am saying is that the current hit rate might be closer to 30% than 40% even considering your valid point about more knowledgeable submitters..
I would like to see current stats rather than a 14 year history.
Certain value? $1,000,000? $500,000? $20,000? $5,000? $500?
Draw the line when you make that type of statement
Also, what about reholders or going from 1 service to another? Sure, you can send in "proof" and the new coin, but, sometimes......(maybe they want more than just a photo? I haven't done that part of the service yet)
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Pass
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
Did you submit them in the same holder? And were you hoping for a green to gold sticker?
Regrettably, even though I was accepted as a cac member a few years after they started, I still did not understand how they worked and left a lot of money on the table by not sending coins in, it would have saved me a lot of grief had I sent in expensive coins for review. Some that stand out were $20 Libs. such as an 1862 and 1863 in NGC AU55 that would very likely have passed and they would have likely made good offers on. Also an 1890-s in MS63. It is a great service if you know how to use it.
Question for the class:
If CAC stickers A & B coins within a grade but not C coins, it would seem that out of a random sampling of slabbed coins, 66% would sticker but the stats above indicate that only 42% of submitted coins stickered. What's up with that?
An additional observation:
The coins that get submitted to CAC aren't totally random. Ones that are obviously in the C group would be less likely to be submitted, which should increase the percentage stickered over a random sampling.
Better than the average bear!
Tom
Thank you
Interesting stats. 1.5 million coins reviewed by CAC (this thread). Total PCGS graded 42.5 million and NGC graded 45 million (google search). Finally I have an answer to a question been pondering a long time.
I believe the VAST majority of coins graded are Modern or World coins. These are ineligible to be reviewed by CAC. Additionally, my sense is that many coins graded in the "Economy" tier, even if eligible for CAC review, usually don't get submitted. As such, it's tough to make a conclusion as to what percentage of coins that CAC expects to see have actually been submitted.
BUT, with that said, about three years ago in an interview in print in the Greysheet CAC publication, JA said something like that he believes they've seen about 90% of the "Classic" coins they will see, and that many of the current submissions at that time were coins they had previously seen and failed to pass.
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
So how much time does CAC spend on each coin? If we assume the rate of coins review is constant over 14 years, we give them 2 weeks of vacation each year, work a 40 hour week, and use the numbers in Catbert's original post, we get:
So at a uniform rate, CAC spends about 67 seconds on each coin. That means they do 429 coins per day, and 2143 per week. Again assuming constant rate with an 8 hour viewing time per day. The number of coins per day and week seem reasonable.
That is likely to be conservative and maximum viewing time. There is likely periods where more coins are viewed, or shorter work times, so on average they view a coin for probably less than a minute. If you take into account that the finalizer sometimes has to take notes to report back to sender requests for info, well, this is alot of work and also they have to be quick to keep that rate. So you can see where they are probably not going to be perfect just like the TPG's as is constantly debated. Overall I think they do pretty good for such a fast rate of evaluation. But it is what it is and to achieve the rate they have, they are not going to be perfect. But that is okay with me.............
Best, SH
You saved me a lot of time. I started to set up this table last night
Great job, my numbers look very close, I didn't give them 2 weeks off for vacation
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
You have to think that as "coin guys" they have to love their job. Looking at the best of the best. It reminds me of the job I always wanted reviewing bikini's at the beach.
Didn't get that job either........
@spacehayduke
One thing to consider is, as I understand it, cac typically has 2 'graders' in the office. So during a typical week it would be 80 hours for them. However, if they all then go thru JA, then the numbers you indicated could be the time he spends after the 'graders' have previewed them for him.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
I am assuming that both graders look at all coins, just as 2 or 3 grade each coin in an NGC or PCGS grading room before the finalizer, who for CAC is JA. But if they each only look at 1, then you double the time each coin is reviewed you are correct.
You know I had never thought of it that way and always as each independent. But after you mentioned it, I cannot think of why I thought independent.
Perhaps only their hairdresser knows for sure.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
WOOOOOOOOO! Just got results. 66.66% success which is a 9% drop over my last submission, but I still feel elated! 12 of 18 got beans! The not passed coins were 2 Jefferson pr66 1942, a 1936 DDO Buffalo, a Morgan; a Peace and a standing Liberty quarter. I honestly sent the failed coins as a shot in the dark
Beans include my 1943/2 MS65FS, a Stone Mountain commemorative, and a 39 DDR!!!
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
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gratz and a wonderfully diverse submission!
if you start a thread showcasing them, please ding me.
Yeah, would love to see them up close
Congrats, seems like you did very well
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
I lived your dream, Cabana boy at the Doral hotel in Miami Beach for 3 years. High school years sure were a lot of fun
Congrats, those are very nice results. I was very happy with my recent 40 coin submission.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
What would be really interesting is to see these stats broken down by TPG.
http://ProofCollection.Net
626,775 coins received the Green Sticker (41.8%)
7,573 Gold Sticker (.5%)
865,652 rejected or passed for a sticker (57.7%)
I don't know how anyone else interprets this, but I see it as saying that thus far sending a coin to CAC is little more than a 50/50 proposition. I find that discouraging because my inference is that it means submitters tend to be sub-par graders and are likely taking a crap-shot at a sticker due to the risk/reward: low cost of a submission and the increased coin value perceived by the overall market.
During the past 5-10 years the mantra from 20 years ago has changed. Previously it was that "If it's not slabbed there must be a reason" and now it's become "If it's not stickered there must be a reason" which is assumed if not spoken. Past his skill as a Numismatist and coin grader I think that JA has been overlooked as a marketing strategist.
And most here don't seem to think it doesn't damage the PCGS Brand.
Sounds about right. From their website, a green sticker means that the coin is "solid" for the grade, Statistically, if the grading system supported fractions, an MS63 coin (for example) would include any coin that graded 62.50 - 63.49. Assuming an even distribution, CAC is green stickering everything that would be roughly 63.00 to 63.49, or arguably 63.10 to 63.49.
http://ProofCollection.Net
And most here don't seem to think it doesn't damage the PCGS Brand.
I join most here in not seeing the damage to the PCGS brand (or NGC for that matter). There is no CAC 'overgraded' sticker. Green sticker means the coin is strong for the grade. Gold is coin undergraded, which in my view shows conservative grading on the TPGs part - as a collector I would want that conservatism. Then there are the symbiotic aspects in that every coin reviewed by CAC has the beneficial effect of verifying the coin remains certified and is valid in terms of its relevant TPG grade population.
Perhaps you meant to say "And most here seem to think it doesn't damage the PCGS Brand."
If my interpretation is correct of what you meant to say, then I agree with you - most here seem to think (that CAC) doesn't damage the PCGS Brand! And that's because CAC acknowledges that a coin they examine and not give a sticker can indeed be properly graded, but just not solid for the grade!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I disagree with your interpretation:
Just my Two Cents.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
IMO it's about the marketplace. The market has many tiers but specifically a CAC coin is positioned as premium and priced accordingly.
This is important because premium material within a specific grade should be differentiated. Collectors can make a judgement and recognize the nuances of a coins condition/preservation/aesthetics etc.
More knowledge and expertise is good for the hobby.
You're basically saying the same thing although you broke it into 3 tiers. I don't want to debate the spectrum which I contemplated 63.00 to 63.99 for my example but figured that didn't really work when you got to MS70. Regardless, the concept is the same, that each numerical grade is indeed a spectrum, and mathematically half will be below average and have will be above average. And it's clear, CAC will green sticker most of the above average coins.
http://ProofCollection.Net
Yes, but I believe they will also sticker "average" coins as solid for the grade (not only above average coins), as I believe "B" coins are average coins for the grade, and they get stickered.
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I pass on all of those non-CAC coins unless I’m willing to have that coin in my collection knowing that it doesn’t merit a CAC.
a coin they examine and not give a sticker can indeed be properly graded, but just not solid for the grade.
It seems to me that if CAC has prevented anyone from buying what are properly graded coins, or even considering them closely, that CAC has somehow affected that TPG's brand. It is the phenomenon that has bothered and intrigued me ever since the inception of this service: that small green or gold sticker now has a pre-eminent position in the marketplace, seemingly more important than the TPG or even the coin itself. There are probably legions of collectors who can't admit it, even to themselves, but the CAC sticker is the deciding factor in purchases.
I admit it!!!!!
I choose to not have coins in my collection that are "C" coins, or have had certain post mint treatments to its surfaces that are acceptable to the TPG's, but not acceptable to CAC.
By the way, very gentle and slight dipping of lustrous coins is acceptable to the TPG's AND to CAC.
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Is cac open again?? They closed for awhile…
They reopened around April 7th.
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Only if your a member
New CAC Membership Temporarily Closed.
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
My own small world tells me that they are stickering fewer coins I am sending in now than I did three years ago. I send in nice material. That's it.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Well in the end, the CAC sticker is just a way of documenting a second opinion. Fundamentally there is nothing wrong with that.
As far as only buying CAC coins, I think it is foolish overall. Again back to my spectrum or the A, B, and C tier coins. The only thing the sticker should do is help you decide how much to pay and keep you from paying A money for a C coin. There's nothing wrong with a C coin, especially if you can't afford the A coin. Some collectors would prefer otherwise, but I'd rather have an MS63 slab that I agree with that doesn't CAC than an MS62 CAC.
Edited to add: Wouldn't it be a hoot if NGC or PCGS started slabbing the other's slabs (ie, PCGS would encapsulate an NGC slab)? That would be almost the same thing as CAC although the second TPG wouldn't be able to actually handle the coin but you'd get two numeric grades.
http://ProofCollection.Net