In most circumstances, assisted ‘mint errors’ are worth the same or more, due to being unique, exotic, dramatic, impossible, or any combination.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
For many years I was on the fence when it came to errors vs hijinks. The extra low leaf Wisconsin quarter solved that dilemma.
I also collect glass insulators. This example was produced at the Kerr factory in NJ circa 1972, by hand feeding cobalt blue pea sized pellets into the mix and not activating the stirrers. About 150 were made on one shift and brought home by a plant manager who had ties to the fairly new (at the time) insulator collecting community.
Today, a straight up clear Kerr in this design is worth a buck on a good day. The cobalt swirls have sold for $1000...a little lower for less color, and higher for more.
I've wondered though - does this sort of thing happen in the US postage stamp world?
Here is a similar over the top ‘mint error’ that WAS certified as such:
What is the date on the Barber Quarter understrike? The other one is 1900.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I think that if the TPGs called, for example, a 30% Off Center Proof Ike a "Mint Sport" and and a 30% Off Center MS Ike an "Error", it would cause more confusion than anything else, so not a good idea. Best to call them all errors, and let it be known that some errors are accidental, some are intentional, and sometimes we just don't know.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
Learned a new term, "mint sport". Thanks. Recognizing coins as such would perhaps be a judgement call and subject to controversy. Like grading. However, those well-versed on the minting process might be able to make an objective call in some cases. Too bad Roger can't comment here.
Although discussed in a different thread, this is a perfect example of not knowing if it was struck as ‘mint sport’ or is actually an accidental ‘mint error’.
P.S. Research is ongoing…
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
There is no doubt that some of the errors we see are 'mint sport'. Some more likely than others. However, it seems the hobby blesses most - if not all - of these dubious coins. Cheers, RickO
I have about 700 certified mint error coins in my inventory.
The overwhelming majority have to be true mint error coins that were unintentional.
I absolutely also have a handful of coins that are suspect to me and could have a hand by a mint employee. These are also cool IMO because to make these "mint sport" coins and get them out is such a mystery with the policing done by the Secret Service. How cool is that
@Jzyskowski1 said:
Has this happen to stamps? Yes 😉🙀🦫. Inverted Jenny comes to mind
I think everyone can agree the famous inverted Jenny is a true printing error. I used to work in the printing buisiness - believe me, upside down is a daily event.
What I wanted to know is if there are any well known stamp "errors" that required a helping hand.
Assisted mint errors sell for the same or more than unassisted.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
@Byers said:
Manufactured lab diamonds sell for less.
Assisted mint errors sell for the same or more than unassisted.
The assisted ones can be more dramatic because they're whatever the assister can manage to cobble together, however unlikely or illogical. The results are not limited to what can actually occur in a normal manufacturing environment. As well, the assister has an incentive to get the "error" out of the mint while normally occurring errors, if discovered, are more likely to never see the light of day.
And to complicate matters further😉 here is an example of a likely ASSISTED (deliberate) sequence of events by Mint Officials, leading to an assisted but accidental mint error, which intentionally got out…😃
It was previously owned by a well-known Swedish error collector who sold it to me. Then it was featured in Mint Error News and sold to a customer.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
Freshly minted coinage stream in all the US Mints pass over the riddler and errors are captured by it also get out just like errors made on purpose. If you are not there on Mint floor, how do you know what's legit ? How do you tell the difference ? The Gov't already said these proof errors are free to trade. If you don't like error coinage, then don't buy it. Alot of us love collecting error coinage from USA & elsewhere.
Many collectors who specialize in mint errors love the assisted ones and proof errors.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
Many collectors who specialize in mint errors love the assisted ones and proof errors.
I am an error collector through and through, and while I do not begrudge at all those who love and collect assisted errors, I do not count myself among their fans.
Maybe it's because in my day job I work with a lot of factories and spend a good part of my time trying to make sure "errors" don't make it into commerce. I like my errors to have authenticity - not in the genuine / counterfeit sense, but in the sense that the Mint really did not mean for them to happen, and in some cases took great pains to prevent them, yet they snuck through the minting process anyway.
To some I am sure, the clandestine origins and the mystique of a "Midnight Minter" adds appeal. Others may consider the impossible-yet-here-it-is factor as a huge plus instead of a distraction. Still others may consider eye appeal alone, regardless of how it was made.
All this is a long way of saying, collect what you like. I have a bunch of clipped Proof coins, and while I could never say with 100% certainty that they all left the Mint through the front door, in general I try to stay away from anything too outlandish, especially if it's dated 1965-1970. I don't feel my collection has suffered at all from the omission. In the past few months I was able to acquire a clipped proof clipped cent, nickel, and dime, all dated in the 1980s, all of which I pursued without hesitation.
To the OP's original question, I think the term "mint error" is broad enough to cover both the unintentional and assisted variety. I like to believe anyone savvy enough to collect the latter has factored the origin story into their enjoyment without needing a TPG to label it for them.
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
San Fransico does not stand alone when Shenanigan Errors are concerned.
Let's not overlook the estate of a 1943 Denver Mint employee sold the unique 1943D copper cent for almost one million dollars. Real error liberatated, or shenanigans ? I am guessing it did not make it out without an assist.
@seanq said:
To the OP's original question, I think the term "mint error" is broad enough to cover both the unintentional and assisted variety. I like to believe anyone savvy enough to collect the latter has factored the origin story into their enjoyment without needing a TPG to label it for them.
My question didn't really hinge on what the TPGs label them, it was more related to what people in general call them. In a way, I see this as analogous to the regular discussions of toning- the difference between artificial vs. natural. The interesting thing in this discussion is that artificial errors have way more support than artificial toned coins do.
SF is not alone with PROOF, SMS and MINT STATE assisted errors
Assisted ‘mint errors’ struck in the U.S. Mints date at least 170 years old. It’s nothing new! Don’t forget the fantasy patterns and midnight strikes.
•Two headed 1859 IHC PCGS ‘mint error’
•The gold IHC’s (at least 7 now) from 1900 to 1906 ‘mint errors’
•The (5) 1913 Liberty Head Nickels
•Possibly the unique gold 1913 Buffalo Head Nickel ‘mint error’
The list goes on and on…
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
Assisted mint errors routinely bring the same price and in many instances more than, non assisted mint errors.
Mint Error News is working on an article regarding this for it’s 20th year anniversary issue.
Off the top of my head, I can NOT think of one assisted mint error that sold for less due to being purposely struck!
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
@seanq said:
To the OP's original question, I think the term "mint error" is broad enough to cover both the unintentional and assisted variety. I like to believe anyone savvy enough to collect the latter has factored the origin story into their enjoyment without needing a TPG to label it for them.
My question didn't really hinge on what the TPGs label them, it was more related to what people in general call them. In a way, I see this as analogous to the regular discussions of toning- the difference between artificial vs. natural. The interesting thing in this discussion is that artificial errors have way more support than artificial toned coins do.
Thoughts on that? Anyone?
Way different. No way to compare the two.
AT is done outside of the mint. and totally legal.
@seanq said:
To the OP's original question, I think the term "mint error" is broad enough to cover both the unintentional and assisted variety. I like to believe anyone savvy enough to collect the latter has factored the origin story into their enjoyment without needing a TPG to label it for them.
My question didn't really hinge on what the TPGs label them, it was more related to what people in general call them. In a way, I see this as analogous to the regular discussions of toning- the difference between artificial vs. natural. The interesting thing in this discussion is that artificial errors have way more support than artificial toned coins do.
Thoughts on that? Anyone?
Way different. No way to compare the two.
AT is done outside of the mint. and totally legal.
Mint errors are done inside the mint and if smuggled out is a felony.
And yet, AT'ing coins is vilified and smuggled out errors are celebrated. Interesting, no?
It’s not that proof errors are celebrated.
It’s just that they are highly coveted and bring strong prices. They aren’t for everyone- and that’s fine.
I’m sure that you have read this:
Therefore, they are bought, sold, certified, auctioned, and discussed openly.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
@seanq said:
To the OP's original question, I think the term "mint error" is broad enough to cover both the unintentional and assisted variety. I like to believe anyone savvy enough to collect the latter has factored the origin story into their enjoyment without needing a TPG to label it for them.
My question didn't really hinge on what the TPGs label them, it was more related to what people in general call them. In a way, I see this as analogous to the regular discussions of toning- the difference between artificial vs. natural. The interesting thing in this discussion is that artificial errors have way more support than artificial toned coins do.
Thoughts on that? Anyone?
Way different. No way to compare the two.
AT is done outside of the mint. and totally legal.
Mint errors are done inside the mint and if smuggled out is a felony.
And yet, AT'ing coins is vilified and smuggled out errors are celebrated. Interesting, no?
Interesting to me, yes.
Here’s one reason why toning might end up being treated differently from “errors”- at least sometimes. If the artificial toning is poorly done, it can be vilified. But if it’s done in such a way that it’s thought to be natural, it can be highly praised, as are certain “errors”.
On a related matter, the word that keeps coming to mind for me to describe “intentional errors” is “contrived”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Here are just a few assisted mint errors bringing strong prices in auctions in 2021:
The Mint Error News article will explore many reasons why assisted proof and mint state error coins sell for huge amounts. They are proof and mint state and originate from SF, Denver and Phili.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
@bolivarshagnasty said:
Buying stolen goods such as tools or electronics facilitates future thievery. I see no difference in regards to buying stolen mint products.
The U.S. Mint and Secret Service have a pretty good track record going after those, like the 1933 Double Eagles and 1974-D Lincoln Cents.
Correct regarding their position on the 1933 Double Eagles and 1974D Cent.
And here was their position of the assisted proof errors:
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
@bolivarshagnasty said:
Buying stolen goods such as tools or electronics facilitates future thievery. I see no difference in regards to buying stolen mint products.
The U.S. Mint and Secret Service have a pretty good track record going after those, like the 1933 Double Eagles and 1974-D Lincoln Cents.
This thread is full of stolen coins that they didn’t catch. You don’t honestly believe that the coins in this thread were found in mint sewn bags?
Wasn't the Secret Service involved in the destruction of some authentic 1969-S doubled die Lincolns because they incorrectly believed they were counterfeits?
These have had very prominent, wealthy, famous numismatists as owners.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
@bolivarshagnasty said:
Buying stolen goods such as tools or electronics facilitates future thievery. I see no difference in regards to buying stolen mint products.
The U.S. Mint and Secret Service have a pretty good track record going after those, like the 1933 Double Eagles and 1974-D Lincoln Cents.
This thread is full of stolen coins that they didn’t catch. You don’t honestly believe that the coins in this thread were found in mint sewn bags?
If the U.S. Government is ok with it, it’s ok with me. The Secret Service is a pretty good authority!
@bolivarshagnasty said:
Buying stolen goods such as tools or electronics facilitates future thievery. I see no difference in regards to buying stolen mint products.
The U.S. Mint and Secret Service have a pretty good track record going after those, like the 1933 Double Eagles and 1974-D Lincoln Cents.
This thread is full of stolen coins that they didn’t catch. You don’t honestly believe that the coins in this thread were found in mint sewn bags?
As others have said, the Secret Service was contacted about many of these coins, in particular the ones from the SF mint / CA safety deposit box, and declared them legal to own. Though it may seem inconsistent, you cannot un-ring that bell.
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
“ As others have said, the Secret Service was contacted about many of these coins, in particular the ones from the SF mint / CA safety deposit box, and declared them legal to own. Though it may seem inconsistent, you cannot un-ring that bell.”
Sean Reynolds
Exactly…
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
The numismatic term "error" often causes confusion because it is assumed that "error" means "mistake". This is not correct. An error coin is not defined as a coin that was made by mistake; it is a coin that was made wrong (i.e., a coin that was misstruck in some way). As we continually remind newbies on this Forum, a feature such as a die crack or a doubled die - even though it happened by mistake - is not an error; it is a property of the dies, not the strike, and therefore falls under the category of die variety.
If it were easy enough for assisted errors to leave the Mint, they would, at some point, become mundane and of lesser interest to collectors. Of course, this is not the case; it appears just as difficult (if not more so) for them to leave the Mint as unassisted errors; as such, they are rare and highly collectable. The fact that they were made with intention is beside the point, and a curious thing to object to. When would a coin collector ever say, "There's only one example of this, but the Mint made it on purpose, so I'm not interested." That would make no sense whatsoever. It is, after all, the purpose of the Mint to make coins, and we, as coin collectors, collect those coins.
As others have mentioned, assisted errors are akin to the off metal "patterns" and other numismatic delicacies made for collectors in the 19th century and are desirable for the many of the same reasons (e.g., they are rare, exotic, spectacular, etc.).
@IkesT said:
An error coin is not defined as a coin that was made by mistake; it is a coin that was made wrong (i.e., a coin that was misstruck in some way).
These "contrived" (thanks, @MFeld) errors were not made wrong or misstruck, they were made just as intended.
Pattern off- metals, exotic mint errors,
gold Indian Head Cents ( and possibly the unique gold Buffalo Nickel), the 1913 Liberty Head Nickels, and countless others fall into the category of assisted, intentional, contrived, and deliberate. These are among the most desirable coins out there to so many collectors and dealers. The prices that they bring proves this!!
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
@Byers said:
Pattern off- metals, exotic mint errors,
gold Indian Head Cents ( and possibly the unique gold Buffalo Nickel), the 1913 Liberty Head Nickels, and countless others fall into the category of assisted, intentional, contrived, and deliberate. These are among the most desirable coins out there to so many collectors and dealers. The prices that they bring proves this!!
I agree Mike. The reality is that I don't think the people buying these care how they were made. They value rarity and eye appeal. These coins just happen to be some of the most rare and eye appealing.
Pattern off- metals, exotic mint errors,
gold Indian Head Cents ( and possibly the unique gold Buffalo Nickel), the 1913 Liberty Head Nickels, and countless others fall into the category of assisted, intentional, contrived, and deliberate. These are among the most desirable coins out there to so many collectors and dealers. The prices that they bring proves this!!
I have found a few intentional, "hey look at this image or error" type of coins.
One of these I will not post so not to encourage other fools.
(Don't even think about it, ok)
I guess you could call this forum, The Filter.
But there are some that you just have to say... "What the f ...ilter"?
“ I agree Mike. The reality is that I don't think the people buying these care how they were made. They value rarity and eye appeal. These coins just happen to be some of the most rare and eye appealing.”
I have sold many unique patterns, die trials, mint errors, and coins. Some of these were exotic, deliberate, contrived, and intentional, others were officially struck.
Almost all of my customers over a span of 45 years could care less whether the coins that they purchased from me were assisted or not.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
Comments
@Joey29
In most circumstances, assisted ‘mint errors’ are worth the same or more, due to being unique, exotic, dramatic, impossible, or any combination.
For many years I was on the fence when it came to errors vs hijinks. The extra low leaf Wisconsin quarter solved that dilemma.
I also collect glass insulators. This example was produced at the Kerr factory in NJ circa 1972, by hand feeding cobalt blue pea sized pellets into the mix and not activating the stirrers. About 150 were made on one shift and brought home by a plant manager who had ties to the fairly new (at the time) insulator collecting community.
Today, a straight up clear Kerr in this design is worth a buck on a good day. The cobalt swirls have sold for $1000...a little lower for less color, and higher for more.
I've wondered though - does this sort of thing happen in the US postage stamp world?
What is the date on the Barber Quarter understrike? The other one is 1900.
I think that if the TPGs called, for example, a 30% Off Center Proof Ike a "Mint Sport" and and a 30% Off Center MS Ike an "Error", it would cause more confusion than anything else, so not a good idea. Best to call them all errors, and let it be known that some errors are accidental, some are intentional, and sometimes we just don't know.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Has this happen to stamps? Yes 😉🙀🦫. Inverted Jenny comes to mind
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
Andy- good point!
CaptHenway- the date isn’t visible.
Learned a new term, "mint sport". Thanks. Recognizing coins as such would perhaps be a judgement call and subject to controversy. Like grading. However, those well-versed on the minting process might be able to make an objective call in some cases. Too bad Roger can't comment here.
Although discussed in a different thread, this is a perfect example of not knowing if it was struck as ‘mint sport’ or is actually an accidental ‘mint error’.
P.S. Research is ongoing…
There is no doubt that some of the errors we see are 'mint sport'. Some more likely than others. However, it seems the hobby blesses most - if not all - of these dubious coins. Cheers, RickO
I have about 700 certified mint error coins in my inventory.
The overwhelming majority have to be true mint error coins that were unintentional.
I absolutely also have a handful of coins that are suspect to me and could have a hand by a mint employee. These are also cool IMO because to make these "mint sport" coins and get them out is such a mystery with the policing done by the Secret Service. How cool is that
I think everyone can agree the famous inverted Jenny is a true printing error. I used to work in the printing buisiness - believe me, upside down is a daily event.
What I wanted to know is if there are any well known stamp "errors" that required a helping hand.
"Manufactured Diamonds" sell for less than "Natural Diamonds".
--Severian the Lame
Manufactured lab diamonds sell for less.
Assisted mint errors sell for the same or more than unassisted.
The assisted ones can be more dramatic because they're whatever the assister can manage to cobble together, however unlikely or illogical. The results are not limited to what can actually occur in a normal manufacturing environment. As well, the assister has an incentive to get the "error" out of the mint while normally occurring errors, if discovered, are more likely to never see the light of day.
And to complicate matters further😉 here is an example of a likely ASSISTED (deliberate) sequence of events by Mint Officials, leading to an assisted but accidental mint error, which intentionally got out…😃
It was previously owned by a well-known Swedish error collector who sold it to me. Then it was featured in Mint Error News and sold to a customer.
Freshly minted coinage stream in all the US Mints pass over the riddler and errors are captured by it also get out just like errors made on purpose. If you are not there on Mint floor, how do you know what's legit ? How do you tell the difference ? The Gov't already said these proof errors are free to trade. If you don't like error coinage, then don't buy it. Alot of us love collecting error coinage from USA & elsewhere.
I was referring to the nomenclature. "Assisted Mint Errors" sounds better than and sells better than "Fakes".
--Severian the Lame
LindyS
Correct.
Many collectors who specialize in mint errors love the assisted ones and proof errors.
I am an error collector through and through, and while I do not begrudge at all those who love and collect assisted errors, I do not count myself among their fans.
Maybe it's because in my day job I work with a lot of factories and spend a good part of my time trying to make sure "errors" don't make it into commerce. I like my errors to have authenticity - not in the genuine / counterfeit sense, but in the sense that the Mint really did not mean for them to happen, and in some cases took great pains to prevent them, yet they snuck through the minting process anyway.
To some I am sure, the clandestine origins and the mystique of a "Midnight Minter" adds appeal. Others may consider the impossible-yet-here-it-is factor as a huge plus instead of a distraction. Still others may consider eye appeal alone, regardless of how it was made.
All this is a long way of saying, collect what you like. I have a bunch of clipped Proof coins, and while I could never say with 100% certainty that they all left the Mint through the front door, in general I try to stay away from anything too outlandish, especially if it's dated 1965-1970. I don't feel my collection has suffered at all from the omission. In the past few months I was able to acquire a clipped proof clipped cent, nickel, and dime, all dated in the 1980s, all of which I pursued without hesitation.
To the OP's original question, I think the term "mint error" is broad enough to cover both the unintentional and assisted variety. I like to believe anyone savvy enough to collect the latter has factored the origin story into their enjoyment without needing a TPG to label it for them.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
Denver Mint leaked errors from 1968 thru 1977.
Philly Mint leaked errors in 1999 thru 2001
https://coins.ha.com/itm/errors/2000-1c-lincoln-cent-struck-on-25c-planchet-ms65-pcgs/a/60222-92173.s?utm_source=coinweek
San Fransico does not stand alone when Shenanigan Errors are concerned.
Let's not overlook the estate of a 1943 Denver Mint employee sold the unique 1943D copper cent for almost one million dollars. Real error liberatated, or shenanigans ? I am guessing it did not make it out without an assist.
My question didn't really hinge on what the TPGs label them, it was more related to what people in general call them. In a way, I see this as analogous to the regular discussions of toning- the difference between artificial vs. natural. The interesting thing in this discussion is that artificial errors have way more support than artificial toned coins do.
Thoughts on that? Anyone?
WOT
@LindyS -
Many MINT STATE Denver errors assisted
Many MINT STATE Phili errors assisted
SF is not alone with PROOF, SMS and MINT STATE assisted errors
Assisted ‘mint errors’ struck in the U.S. Mints date at least 170 years old. It’s nothing new! Don’t forget the fantasy patterns and midnight strikes.
•Two headed 1859 IHC PCGS ‘mint error’
•The gold IHC’s (at least 7 now) from 1900 to 1906 ‘mint errors’
•The (5) 1913 Liberty Head Nickels
•Possibly the unique gold 1913 Buffalo Head Nickel ‘mint error’
The list goes on and on…
Couldn't help myself. But seriously, why should discussing assisted errors be any different than discussing assisted toning?
@MasonG
Assisted mint errors routinely bring the same price and in many instances more than, non assisted mint errors.
Mint Error News is working on an article regarding this for it’s 20th year anniversary issue.
Off the top of my head, I can NOT think of one assisted mint error that sold for less due to being purposely struck!
Way different. No way to compare the two.
AT is done outside of the mint. and totally legal.
Mint errors are done inside the mint.
And yet, AT'ing coins is vilified and smuggled out errors are celebrated. Interesting, no?
@MasonG
It’s not that proof errors are celebrated.
It’s just that they are highly coveted and bring strong prices. They aren’t for everyone- and that’s fine.
I’m sure that you have read this:
Therefore, they are bought, sold, certified, auctioned, and discussed openly.
Interesting to me, yes.
Here’s one reason why toning might end up being treated differently from “errors”- at least sometimes. If the artificial toning is poorly done, it can be vilified. But if it’s done in such a way that it’s thought to be natural, it can be highly praised, as are certain “errors”.
On a related matter, the word that keeps coming to mind for me to describe “intentional errors” is “contrived”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Here are just a few assisted mint errors bringing strong prices in auctions in 2021:
The Mint Error News article will explore many reasons why assisted proof and mint state error coins sell for huge amounts. They are proof and mint state and originate from SF, Denver and Phili.
Buying stolen goods such as tools or electronics facilitates future thievery. I see no difference in regards to buying stolen mint products.
That sounds appropriate. I will bet it'll never be adopted.
There are some nuances here in the comparison to AT.
As mentioned by Mark, some AT is worth a premium.
Here's some "PMD" that people pay a huge premium for.
https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/modern-carved-morgan-dollar-sells-for-10101.html
The U.S. Mint and Secret Service have a pretty good track record going after those, like the 1933 Double Eagles and 1974-D Lincoln Cents.
Bag toning isn’t generally considered to be AT - you know that.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Haha, yes of course! I was working on the analogies too much.
All the “AT” should simply be “Toning”.
@Zoins
Correct regarding their position on the 1933 Double Eagles and 1974D Cent.
And here was their position of the assisted proof errors:
This thread is full of stolen coins that they didn’t catch. You don’t honestly believe that the coins in this thread were found in mint sewn bags?
Wasn't the Secret Service involved in the destruction of some authentic 1969-S doubled die Lincolns because they incorrectly believed they were counterfeits?
What about the (5) 1913 Liberty Head Nickels?
These have had very prominent, wealthy, famous numismatists as owners.
If the U.S. Government is ok with it, it’s ok with me. The Secret Service is a pretty good authority!
As others have said, the Secret Service was contacted about many of these coins, in particular the ones from the SF mint / CA safety deposit box, and declared them legal to own. Though it may seem inconsistent, you cannot un-ring that bell.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
“ As others have said, the Secret Service was contacted about many of these coins, in particular the ones from the SF mint / CA safety deposit box, and declared them legal to own. Though it may seem inconsistent, you cannot un-ring that bell.”
Sean Reynolds
Exactly…
The numismatic term "error" often causes confusion because it is assumed that "error" means "mistake". This is not correct. An error coin is not defined as a coin that was made by mistake; it is a coin that was made wrong (i.e., a coin that was misstruck in some way). As we continually remind newbies on this Forum, a feature such as a die crack or a doubled die - even though it happened by mistake - is not an error; it is a property of the dies, not the strike, and therefore falls under the category of die variety.
If it were easy enough for assisted errors to leave the Mint, they would, at some point, become mundane and of lesser interest to collectors. Of course, this is not the case; it appears just as difficult (if not more so) for them to leave the Mint as unassisted errors; as such, they are rare and highly collectable. The fact that they were made with intention is beside the point, and a curious thing to object to. When would a coin collector ever say, "There's only one example of this, but the Mint made it on purpose, so I'm not interested." That would make no sense whatsoever. It is, after all, the purpose of the Mint to make coins, and we, as coin collectors, collect those coins.
As others have mentioned, assisted errors are akin to the off metal "patterns" and other numismatic delicacies made for collectors in the 19th century and are desirable for the many of the same reasons (e.g., they are rare, exotic, spectacular, etc.).
These "contrived" (thanks, @MFeld) errors were not made wrong or misstruck, they were made just as intended.
@IkesT
Your post was articulate and logical.
Pattern off- metals, exotic mint errors,
gold Indian Head Cents ( and possibly the unique gold Buffalo Nickel), the 1913 Liberty Head Nickels, and countless others fall into the category of assisted, intentional, contrived, and deliberate. These are among the most desirable coins out there to so many collectors and dealers. The prices that they bring proves this!!
I agree Mike. The reality is that I don't think the people buying these care how they were made. They value rarity and eye appeal. These coins just happen to be some of the most rare and eye appealing.
I have found a few intentional, "hey look at this image or error" type of coins.
One of these I will not post so not to encourage other fools.
(Don't even think about it, ok)
I guess you could call this forum, The Filter.
But there are some that you just have to say... "What the f ...ilter"?
@Zoins stated:
“ I agree Mike. The reality is that I don't think the people buying these care how they were made. They value rarity and eye appeal. These coins just happen to be some of the most rare and eye appealing.”
Take a second and scroll down my archive link.
https://mikebyers.com/rarecoins-archives.html
I have sold many unique patterns, die trials, mint errors, and coins. Some of these were exotic, deliberate, contrived, and intentional, others were officially struck.
Almost all of my customers over a span of 45 years could care less whether the coins that they purchased from me were assisted or not.