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1879-CC Morgan Will PCGS Restoration help this coin? Guess The Grade! - - RESULT POSTED

ProofCollectionProofCollection Posts: 5,405 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited May 5, 2022 3:51PM in U.S. Coin Forum

This is a PCGS graded coin in a rattler holder. I will reveal the grade later. Looking to get opinion should I get it reconsidered. The face is pretty beat up so I know that can be limiting, as well as the overall luster and appearance isn't great.

It's hard to tell from the photos but it is designated a Prooflike coin. Any thoughts on if PCGS restoration can improve the appearance of the coin? I'm not real clear if resto can improve something like this or not.

FWIW, I estimate a +, CAC, or grade bump to be worth $1500-2000.

Edited to add: Not looking to sell it any time soon, just to maximize value when the eventual day comes and to have the coin looking its best.

Grade revealed below...


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Comments

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    PTVETTERPTVETTER Posts: 5,882 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Can't hurt!

    Pat Vetter,Mercury Dime registry set,1938 Proof set registry,Pat & BJ Coins:724-325-7211


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    ElectricityElectricity Posts: 311 ✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2022 3:27PM

    MS60
    Maybe send it to CAC before you send it in for reconsideration

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    MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,219 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The skin on parts of the obverse looks thick enough that resto may harm the surfaces

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
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    coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,791 ✭✭✭✭✭

    NO RESTORATION

    The best and most optimistic grade for this is PL62-and that is not a complete stretch given the general baggy appearance of CC Morgans. Your coin still has skin and any effort to enhance the surfaces will only serve to highlight all the imperfections. I see significant risk that restoration will lead to a less attractive coin and even a lower grade as the ultimate outcome.

    Seriously... if you do not like this coin, sell as it currently is which is in the rattler. If you want to try for a CAC as it currently stands to get a second set of eyes before selling, there is no down side in doing so.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

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    alaura22alaura22 Posts: 2,664 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2022 4:00PM

    Send it in for CAC, if it gets stickered then sell as is. OR keep it
    No resto here either
    As far as grade, I'm in the MS60 club

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    AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,539 ✭✭✭✭✭

    MS62PL is max......

    bob :)

    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
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    amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If the pictures are accurate, I've seen coins like that turn into DMPL's after a dip!

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    cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,062 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Without knowing the grade, how can we tell you whether it would be a worthwhile venture? “Conservation” would likely be a dip and if the luster is already mediocre, I don’t see a nice resulting coin or an upgrade. Also keep in mind that the PL/DMPL/DPL standards from the NGC no line fatty era and rattler were looser than today and many coins would lose the designation and the rattler to boot. Even if it were already stickered (and it sounds like it is not), CAC is also lax on the PL/DPL designation IMHO. I am also not the only PL coin collector to express that view either.

    In summary, I’d leave it alone. The loss of a rattler could cost you hundreds with no guarantee of improvement and a chance of the coin looking worse to boot.

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    cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,062 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @amwldcoin said:
    If the pictures are accurate, I've seen coins like that turn into DMPL's after a dip!

    That sounds incredibly optimistic to me. He says the luster is already weak. I think the odds of underlying DMPL surfaces unlikely.

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    ProofCollectionProofCollection Posts: 5,405 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:
    Without knowing the grade, how can we tell you whether it would be a worthwhile venture? “Conservation” would likely be a dip and if the luster is already mediocre, I don’t see a nice resulting coin or an upgrade. Also keep in mind that the PL/DMPL/DPL standards from the NGC no line fatty era and rattler were looser than today and many coins would lose the designation and the rattler to boot. Even if it were already stickered (and it sounds like it is not), CAC is also lax on the PL/DPL designation IMHO. I am also not the only PL coin collector to express that view either.

    In summary, I’d leave it alone. The loss of a rattler could cost you hundreds with no guarantee of improvement and a chance of the coin looking worse to boot.

    You shouldn't need PCGS to tell you what the grade is... ;)
    It is a PCGS holder so the PL should be trustworthy.

    PCGS won't restore the coin if they don't think it will be improved, correct? I thought I read that somewhere.

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    ProofCollectionProofCollection Posts: 5,405 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @amwldcoin said:
    If the pictures are accurate, I've seen coins like that turn into DMPL's after a dip!

    That sounds incredibly optimistic to me. He says the luster is already weak. I think the odds of underlying DMPL surfaces unlikely.

    I could see where there might be a layer of film on the coin that could be removed and improve luster, I just don't know what restoration is capable of or what the underlying issue is. Hence the post.

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    cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,062 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ProofCollection said:

    @cameonut2011 said:
    Without knowing the grade, how can we tell you whether it would be a worthwhile venture? “Conservation” would likely be a dip and if the luster is already mediocre, I don’t see a nice resulting coin or an upgrade. Also keep in mind that the PL/DMPL/DPL standards from the NGC no line fatty era and rattler were looser than today and many coins would lose the designation and the rattler to boot. Even if it were already stickered (and it sounds like it is not), CAC is also lax on the PL/DPL designation IMHO. I am also not the only PL coin collector to express that view either.

    In summary, I’d leave it alone. The loss of a rattler could cost you hundreds with no guarantee of improvement and a chance of the coin looking worse to boot.

    You shouldn't need PCGS to tell you what the grade is... ;)
    It is a PCGS holder so the PL should be trustworthy.

    PCGS won't restore the coin if they don't think it will be improved, correct? I thought I read that somewhere.

    You could end up with a dipped out lifeless coin. I wouldn’t necessarily trust the designation on the rattler either. Again standards have changed and mechanical errors do happen.

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    amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @amwldcoin said:
    If the pictures are accurate, I've seen coins like that turn into DMPL's after a dip!

    That sounds incredibly optimistic to me. He says the luster is already weak. I think the odds of underlying DMPL surfaces unlikely.

    You would be surprised! Years ago I bought a group of dollars that had been stored in the old 2x2 manilla envelopes. Some looked just like this and came out dynamite blast white DMPL's!

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    cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,062 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2022 6:14PM

    With the amount of chatter on the cheek, I don’t see it grading higher than a 61. The spread between 60 PL and 61 PL is $1,000 per the retail price guide. The same guide has DMPL pieces carrying a $250 premium over PL in both grades. Is the risk of losing the rattler worth it to you? Remember the rattler will bring a premium over the current generation holders. Factoring in lost rattler premium and conservation fees would most likely eat up the difference. This of course assumes it’s in a 60 holder based on your upgrade comments. If it is in a 61 or better holder, there is definitely no upside IMHO.

    I also do not see a CAC sticker in the coin’s future unless it is a 60 and has decent mirrors in hand and even then I wouldn’t put money on it. I’m not saying it isn’t a nice coin, but CAC is unlikely to be forgiving on the deep chatter on the cheek.

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    291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,944 ✭✭✭✭✭

    How much downside risk is there if the coin turns out to look worse after "restoration" and fails to merit a grade bump or sticker?

    All glory is fleeting.
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    fathomfathom Posts: 1,513 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Leave it alone.

    It is an important scarce cc in a rattler, by itself a significant coin.

    Massive perceived value currently and further down the road.

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    messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,704 ✭✭✭✭✭

    79-CC is common in PL relative to the mint state population. Early holders tended to be quite generous with the designation, though. If you want a nice looking PL, maybe the irrational rattler premium on this one can help get you there. I wouldn't mess with this coin.

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    coastaljerseyguycoastaljerseyguy Posts: 1,249 ✭✭✭✭✭

    62PL. Agree with above comments on leaving alone in Rattler. The 3 black lines bother me more than the chatter.

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    TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,740 ✭✭✭✭✭

    From my standpoint, it looks like it is a 61 or 62 and likely PL, and I would go with 62PL since the fields are pretty clean. If it is in a 60 rattler, which is my guess, then there is money to be made here, I suspect. If I am correct and if it was me, I'd spend the money on CAC. If they gold sticker it (depends on the current grade), you have all the best of all worlds. Amwldcoin's comment intrigues me but I am not knowledgeable enough at PL and DMPL to opine on that issue. I really don' t know enough about restoration. As much as I like the originality of the piece, and as much as I hate to admit it, I would be tempted to dip it as well....but I would not.

    Tom

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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks like a 61 or 62.... I would not do anything to this coin/holder other than submit it to CAC. That would be an enhancement with a green bean, and a trophy if gold. Cheers, RickO

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    DollarAfterDollarDollarAfterDollar Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Agreed, not a coin you see every day so leave as is. MS 60 PL is all I got.

    If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
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    DelawareDoonsDelawareDoons Posts: 3,254 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Leave it in the rattler. Worth more that way. If you aren't happy with it, sell it and buy something you will be happy with.

    Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."

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    ProofCollectionProofCollection Posts: 5,405 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thank you all for the feedback. See slab pic for grade. Most of you agree with PCGS. No one said it was 63 worthy so I'm not sure it will CAC.

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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,091 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Cac likes original coins as well as early holders especially PCGS so good shot getting the green bean.

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    coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,791 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ProofCollection

    Just a suggestion... If you try repeating a tap with your finger at the lower edge of the slab, there is a chance you can manipulate the coin so the Liberty portrait is upright within the slab which will help with the presentation.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

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    conrad99conrad99 Posts: 350 ✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2022 2:46PM

    @coinkat said:
    @ProofCollection

    Just a suggestion... If you try repeating a tap with your finger at the lower edge of the slab, there is a chance you can manipulate the coin so the Liberty portrait is upright within the slab which will help with the presentation.

    Greetings all. I'd love to know more about this technique.

    Seems to me that some sort of eccentric tapping would be required in order to induce rotation.

    Asking because I have a couple like this and would like a fix!

    Conrad

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    alaura22alaura22 Posts: 2,664 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2022 2:58PM

    @conrad99 said:

    @coinkat said:
    @ProofCollection

    Just a suggestion... If you try repeating a tap with your finger at the lower edge of the slab, there is a chance you can manipulate the coin so the Liberty portrait is upright within the slab which will help with the presentation.

    Greetings all. I'd love to know more about this technique.

    Seems to me that some sort of eccentric tapping would be required in order to induce rotation.

    Asking because I have a couple like this and would like a fix!

    Conrad

    I just did this on a coin I just got from auction
    Hold the coin holder at about a 45 Degree angle and tap the corner of the holder on a hard surface lightly You should see the coin move within the holder. Check the direction, if it got worse try it from the other side
    It works
    BTW, Welcome

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    ProofCollectionProofCollection Posts: 5,405 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I was able to reorient the coin...

    Upon further examination and thought, the fields of the coin are just not reflective, I was only seeing the reflection of the slab. I now believe that the coin's fields used to be reflective and that a restoration will restore the fields. And without reflective fields, this coin loses a lot of value. I don't believe PCGS gave this a PL designation if it really wasn't. I'm sending it in!

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    coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 10,769 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My guess, you will get a nice new holder with a nice bright coin graded MS62, you will lose value, time, and money. But if it makes you happy then sure do it.

    My Lincoln Registry
    My Collection of Old Holders

    Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
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    ProofCollectionProofCollection Posts: 5,405 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I should explain further...
    Anyone looking at the coin would wonder why it is designated PL because it just isn't and buyers would refuse to pay PL money and be reluctant to pay a holder premium with an inaccurate designation. And they're not supposed to restore it if they don't think it will improve, right?

    Lost value? I think with the PCGS guarantee there would have to be compensation if it loses a grade or designation.

    My bet is that it is a PL coin that has been hazed over 30+ years that the restoration will remove like amwldcoin suggested above.

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    DelawareDoonsDelawareDoons Posts: 3,254 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ProofCollection said:
    I was able to reorient the coin...

    Upon further examination and thought, the fields of the coin are just not reflective, I was only seeing the reflection of the slab. I now believe that the coin's fields used to be reflective and that a restoration will restore the fields. And without reflective fields, this coin loses a lot of value. I don't believe PCGS gave this a PL designation if it really wasn't. I'm sending it in!

    The standards for PL and DMPL used to be much looser than they are today. This ran through the late 1990s. If you send that in, you will lose the holder, and that designation. It is not PL, never was PL, never will be PL.

    Don't waste your money. Don't waste your money. Don't waste your money. Don't waste your money.

    Seriously, you're going to regret it. I would bet a lot of money on that.

    Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."

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    amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DelawareDoons said:

    @ProofCollection said:
    I was able to reorient the coin...

    Upon further examination and thought, the fields of the coin are just not reflective, I was only seeing the reflection of the slab. I now believe that the coin's fields used to be reflective and that a restoration will restore the fields. And without reflective fields, this coin loses a lot of value. I don't believe PCGS gave this a PL designation if it really wasn't. I'm sending it in!

    The standards for PL and DMPL used to be much looser than they are today. This ran through the late 1990s. If you send that in, you will lose the holder, and that designation. It is not PL, never was PL, never will be PL.

    Don't waste your money. Don't waste your money. Don't waste your money. Don't waste your money.

    Seriously, you're going to regret it. I would bet a lot of money on that.

    Wanna make a friendly wager if PCGS decides they will conserve it?

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    DelawareDoonsDelawareDoons Posts: 3,254 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2022 6:58PM

    @conrad99 said:

    @coinkat said:
    @ProofCollection

    Just a suggestion... If you try repeating a tap with your finger at the lower edge of the slab, there is a chance you can manipulate the coin so the Liberty portrait is upright within the slab which will help with the presentation.

    Greetings all. I'd love to know more about this technique.

    Seems to me that some sort of eccentric tapping would be required in order to induce rotation.

    Asking because I have a couple like this and would like a fix!

    Conrad

    Use an electronic toothbrush. Works like a charm

    Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."

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    DelawareDoonsDelawareDoons Posts: 3,254 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @amwldcoin said:

    @DelawareDoons said:

    @ProofCollection said:
    I was able to reorient the coin...

    Upon further examination and thought, the fields of the coin are just not reflective, I was only seeing the reflection of the slab. I now believe that the coin's fields used to be reflective and that a restoration will restore the fields. And without reflective fields, this coin loses a lot of value. I don't believe PCGS gave this a PL designation if it really wasn't. I'm sending it in!

    The standards for PL and DMPL used to be much looser than they are today. This ran through the late 1990s. If you send that in, you will lose the holder, and that designation. It is not PL, never was PL, never will be PL.

    Don't waste your money. Don't waste your money. Don't waste your money. Don't waste your money.

    Seriously, you're going to regret it. I would bet a lot of money on that.

    Wanna make a friendly wager if PCGS decides they will conserve it?

    Sure, but it has to bean as a PL too. B)

    Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."

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    coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 10,769 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ProofCollection said:
    I should explain further...
    Anyone looking at the coin would wonder why it is designated PL because it just isn't and buyers would refuse to pay PL money and be reluctant to pay a holder premium with an inaccurate designation. And they're not supposed to restore it if they don't think it will improve, right?

    Lost value? I think with the PCGS guarantee there would have to be compensation if it loses a grade or designation.

    My bet is that it is a PL coin that has been hazed over 30+ years that the restoration will remove like amwldcoin suggested above.

    I see buyers that pay high premiums for old holders irrespective of the grade or designation on the label. Yes under the PCGS guarantee is in effect, however have you ever used the PCGS guarantee before? I have not but from every account I have read here it is PCGS that determines the value and thus the payout not you. That may work in the favor of the submitter at times, but I cannot recall reading anyone saying that they benefited from the payout. Remember that PCGS will not take the holder into account when determining the value, and like it or not rattler holders still bring a premium in most sales.

    Also yes they will not do anything if they do not feel it can be improved, but improved is a very subjective term. It has been said over and over that if you don't like the coin or the holder you are usually better off to sell it and find one that suits your eye/needs.

    Whatever you do please update this thread with the results, it will be a good learning exercise for all.

    My Lincoln Registry
    My Collection of Old Holders

    Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
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    coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 30, 2022 12:47PM

    If you choose to restore and it does not meet your grading expectation which I suspect is PL62, and after the restoration it really looks... well... it looks somewhere between "unfortunate and a train wreck", I really do not see how the PCGS guarantee applies. PCGS does not underwrite the chance that you took in choosing restoration. And even if they agree to do the restoration which would be at your request, I do not see how they can be responsible. Period. You alone will be responsible for the consequences regardless of the outcome.

    Haze and skin is part of the DNA of a coin- especially one like this and it looks its age which to some collectors is a plus. I really do not understand or agree with your rationale. It is your coin and your money- be wise with both the coin and your money.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

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    amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinkat said:
    If you choose to restore and it does not meet your grading expectation which I suspect is PL62, and after the restoration it really looks... well... it looks somewhere between "unfortunate and a train wreck", I really do not see how the PCGS guarantee applies. PCGS does not underwrite the chance that you took in choosing restoration. And even if they agree to do the restoration which would be at your request, I do not see how they can be responsible. Period. You alone will be responsible for the consequences regardless of the outcome.

    Haze and skin is part of the DNA of a coin- especially one like this and it looks its age which to some collectors is a plus. I really do not understand or agree with your rationale. It is your coin and your money- be wise with both the coin and your money.

    PCGS does guarantee the grade on restoration if they decide to do it. You do pay for it!

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    ProofCollectionProofCollection Posts: 5,405 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes, collectors love original surfaces, but they also like coins with eye appeal. A proper restoration you shouldn't notice the surfaces. You can specify a minimum grade on the restoration form. The assumption is that they won't attempt the restoration if they can't guarantee the minimum grade specified.

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    DelawareDoonsDelawareDoons Posts: 3,254 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ProofCollection said:
    Yes, collectors love original surfaces, but they also like coins with eye appeal. A proper restoration you shouldn't notice the surfaces. You can specify a minimum grade on the restoration form. The assumption is that they won't attempt the restoration if they can't guarantee the minimum grade specified.

    Collectors love coins with stable surfaces, which you're definitely getting with a rattler. Right now, collectors love coins in old holders, which you're also definitely getting with a rattler.

    It's dumb to crack this coin out. JMHO.

    Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."

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    amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ProofCollection
    You are now bound to post the results of your endeavor!

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    amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks way better from what I can see!

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    sumduncesumdunce Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭✭

    I like it.

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    messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,704 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Big improvement. Got rid of the negative eye appeal and that nasty rattler holder, too. ;)

    I'm surprised CS said they'd add the PL back to it, though. My impression is that restoration doesn't guarantee the same grade or designation as before and may even result in a no-grade. Early PL designations were given out quite generously. There are many rattler and NGC fatty DMPLs that wouldn't even grade PL by today's standards. From the picture, I don't know that I'd call that coin PL. Bottom line, however, is that it's a more desirable coin now that it was before.

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    WAYNEASWAYNEAS Posts: 6,353 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I am happy that you decided to go with your gut.
    Honestly, I would have kept it in its original holder and sent it to be considered by CAC.
    You have a winner.
    Wayne

    Kennedys are my quest...

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    jayPemjayPem Posts: 4,047 ✭✭✭✭✭

    . I'm also happy that the black marks are now gone as well.

    Am I seeing things...🤔

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    gumby1234gumby1234 Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Another one bites the dust.

    Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM

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    amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Now send it to CAC for the naysayers!

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