Does PCGS Ever Explain its Grading Decisions?
Chesspagan
Posts: 57 ✭✭✭
One of my recent grades was counterfeit. It was about the last possible thing I had thought for the coin. I asked them if they could explain the opinion. I supposed the proverbial snowball has a better chance in hell that getting one of the 2 major plastic gods to explain why they think a coin is counterfeit. I am not a neophyte as I have been into coins for more than half a century and evaluate, grade and describe coins for a living.
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Ask PCGS the question. They are the only one who can answer it.
Re-read my post
Post pictures of the coin and the board members can tell you why it is believed to be counterfeit.
Definite snowball situation
At this time, I know of no way to receive an explanation on an authenticity determination. It is my understanding that PCGS keeps their authentication diagnostics a secret, and for good reason. They are a business and their knowledge base is an asset. NGC does the same thing. We are a PCGS authorized dealer and we submit regularly. We do pick-up/drop-off on all of our submissions at their headquarters, and we never have access to the graders.
Years ago PCGS had a service called "Presidential Review," and you could pay to send your coin in for David Hall to personally inspect and provide his opinion. Back then I think it cost $100 per coin for this service. Sometimes David would agree with the submitter and a coin could go up a point. If that tier still existed, you could get more information as to why they deemed your coin a counterfeit. The "Reconsideration" tier is for graded, genuine coins, so it would not be of use to you in your current case.
"Does PCGS Ever Explain its Grading Decisions?"
They explained it as a counterfeit and that is all you will get from them.
I agree you should post photos here and take advantage of the combined knowledge on the forum.
The only chance you have of an explanation of the counterfeit opinion is to take the coin to one of the shows where PCGS offers the "ask an expert" meetings. That is the only answer you will ever get.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
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it would be nice if they could AT LEAST get someone in the ballpark. added mm/altered date/100% counterfeit etc.
that being said, you are WELCOME to post nice large pics here and we should be able to get you there.
i've attended many a show with people that have socks older than i am (they've told me!) but some of these very same people into numismatics for half a century, when it comes to fakes (at that time 5-8 years ago at least, well, really didn't know the difference between a hole in the ground and a fake/altered. maybe a few they'd recognize, maybe. i've been SO unimpressed with misdiagnosed rpd, rpm confused with strike doubling, altered, cleaned etc etc type of coins i often wondered how they didn't lose fortunes (some of their buyers did!) or perhaps they just made a ton more than they lost or their buyers never checked? i could say more to defend/reprimand but there is no point. perhaps i just have a knack for this stuff?
Agree with this. If the pics are high resolution and well lit, someone here can probably tell you why it's fake. Some forum members here are professional coin dealers and a few are former professional coin graders and they may be able to help you.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
ANACS also sets up at the larger coin shows and will offer free opinions on coins.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
If PCGS thought that there was an added mintmark, altered date, etc. I think they would have noted that, rather than “counterfeit”, “questionable authenticity”, or whatever specific wording they used.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Was it a code 86 or 90? Makes a difference, because questionable authenticity may only mean their is something wrong that they cannot determine exactly the reason, but not willing to authenticate it. It still may be an authentic coin but with an issue.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Posting good pictures here (as suggested above), is really your best chance of getting an explanation. The fake coins get better every year it seems. Cheers, RickO
OK, here it is, have at it.
Does it stick to a magnet 🧲?
The whole coin looks off - I would have questioned its authenticity even if it had been posted without any reference to "counterfeit". And I'm confident that many other posters would have done the same.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Did you buy it from China for 2 dollars?
Here is an MS62 from coinfacts, study yours and then this example. I think you will be able to see the differences.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
NGC lists this as the #3 most counterfeited coin BUT for the $2.5 denomination AND #32 for the $5. So probably best to keep an eye out anyhow since indians are HIGHLY counterfeited as a type across all denoms and probably dates as well. TAKE NOTE of the amount of gold on the list.
if you have a coin in-hand, not a bad idea to pull of a CF max image and then d/l it to your pc as it is easy to view the coin in an image viewer on a pc/tablet so you can zoom in easily as you compare your coin(s) to the image. you'd be pretty surprised how often this simple comparative method helps.
basic tests, weighing, magnet and a couple others are not best for high-end counterfeit detection compared to learning diagnostics/nuances of a coin but those methods will raise flags the easiest usually as if a coin(s) ventures too far outside the parameters, then that is enough to investigate further and is also a good way to catch errors/mixed up flans etc.
does anyone have the "United States Gold Counterfeit Detection Guide." i don't have my copy anymore since i never really ever buy any gold coins, never really have.
i'm in the middle of some stuff right now but here are a couple starting points.
coinfacts CF
CF MAX image
This is from PCGS’ CoinFacts
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1914-5/8527
You see the tassels hanging down on the neck?
Different. You can continue comparisons from there.
This is a painful process
Why heave snarky comments that don’t even apply to the situation?
It would be kind of you to edit your comments on this thread
To the others on here who know -
Is there any chance this is a counterfeit that has gold content?
Agreed,
I'm learning here also.
The first thing I clearly see is the "FIVE DOLLARS"
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
Unfortunate result of trying to get a good deal on a raw coin.
Lots of fakes with $2 1/2 Indians. Do they explain why? They don't want to open up a can of worms with endless queries. I've heard they spend more time on the problem and counterfeits, so they already have expended extra effort. I have spoken to a finalizer on a particular coin sent in for conservation that was worth a lot of money. ICG has graders at shows that will review coins for free, which is a useful service.
Years ago, before plus grades, a dealer friend sent in an 83-S and an 84-S Morgan Dollar in near unc condition. They both came back in AU-58 holders with a personal note from David hall saying that they were as close to unc as a coin can get without actually grading unc. He got very good money for them, though I am sure he would like to have them now. CAC will occasionally add a note or even explain the reason for their decision, at least they used to. But I am not aware of any other mechanism. Another friend recently got back a counterfeit 1893-O dollar that I missed. It was a good counterfeit. But, a quick search on the internet identified the reasons.
Tom
True, however I do not know if ANACS will offer an opinion if the coin is in another brand slab.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I didn’t see where he posted that he was trying to get a good deal.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If the coin was returned as a counterfeit, it wouldn't be in a slab.
The large majority of counterfeits I’ve seen were made of gold.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Weren’t most made in the Middle East as a means of skirting gold ownership laws enforced at the time?
Counterfeits are not slabbed but returned in a bodybag?
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
The leaves jumped right out.
Hard to tell from a photo but the color looks off.
Headdress feathers at 14 just disappear.
Cheek contour is just not there.
Among other tells are the bubbles on the Indian’s chin.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Total lack of detail in the counterfeit.
Cast from a poor mold.
From what I understand, many or most were produced there in the 60’s and 70’s, though I don’t know the main reason(s).
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Tassels / indian's neck doesn't look right. Rim doesn't look right either. Hopefully it's real gold.
while your post came in before mine; sometimes i spend 10, 20, 30 minutes etc on a post, meanwhile others can/have posted links/images/answer etc so sometimes if i seems like i'm just ignoring the efforts of someone here, it is because unless one refreshes a thread, one cannot see the new activity, especially while editing a post.
technically, someone could have 2 tabs open, one for updates to a thread one for their own posts but that seems obnoxious, even for me!
i'm not saying others aren't correct in this thread but the way the OP coin was imaged DRASTICALLY changes the way it looks and therefore the details. also, the coin i linked probably wasn't the best example for a comp. i was just trying to contribute and then get back ot what i was doing. also hadn't seen the post above mine while i was making mine.
This is true. But that one is SOOO bad, it really looks like a modern Chinese fake that may be gold-plated.
At the moment, my friends from Asia don't have any $2.5 but here's an even worse KRand
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000362789344.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.5e14e567e0VJCJ&algo_pvid=53fe6d77-12c9-42a6-a67b-31b9e232539d&aem_p4p_detail=2022031617472112642150694545760009394504&algo_exp_id=53fe6d77-12c9-42a6-a67b-31b9e232539d-29&pdp_ext_f={"sku_id":"10000001487150103"}&pdp_pi=-1;7.92;-1;-1@salePrice;USD;search-mainSearch
Credit to the OP for starting the thread and eventually posting the pic.
You may have helped someone else down the road.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
See here:
No Grade Coins – Part III
Coins can end up in this category due to a multitude of reasons, ranging from comparatively mild (cleaning) to quite severe (holed). Coins which fail to make a numerical grade fall into two broad categories:
Those coins which we can put into holders.
Those coins which we cannot put into holders.
Since it’s a smaller category, and easiest to understand, we’ll begin this week with the second group — coins which we cannot holder. These fall into five categories:
https://www.pcgs.com/news/no-grade-coins-pt3
Thanks @MasonG the last time I submitted any coins to PCGS everything came back in a body bag. But as I have not submitted in so many years I have not kept up with the new rules, seeing all the AT or QC coins now being holdered I just figured they did not use body bags anymore.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Here are larger images from the original pix. It's too bad the camera wasn't square to the coin. Note that the pix are not round.
Lance.
Thanks to all for sharing and clarifying what is wrong with this coin.
Another educational moment for me.
Do hope that the OP posts the weight.
It might just be the picture, but it does not have the look of gold to me.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
I had a coin that I wish I could have received an explanation for. It was an 1871-CC dime that was a choice original VF. It passed muster with every Seated Dime expert at the Baltimore show. The coins was submitted at the show and came back Counterfeit.
The person I bought it from followed through and submitted it to NGC, then ANACS and both also deemed it counterfeit. Even the reeding was correct for a CC dime. Still scratching my head to this day on that one as was the person I bought it from!
Lebanese struck counterfeit. Details are too shallow and the color/luster is off. To be fair, you have to see these "in hand" for a conclusive determination. And that is exactly what PCGS did. For the OP, you are wondering why this is counterfeit. The graders at PCGS will spot a die struck $2.5 Indian in seconds. Some issues are more difficult to authenticate, but these are relatively easy.