@vulcanize said:
Again, not for argument sake but rather curiosity about the skewed data - am taking the 1883 CC and 1884 CC GSA Morgans (with box and certificate) for example.
The greysheet has the OGP at 468$ (and assumes it is the same price for MS 61 as well as the MS 62).
At the coin show this past Saturday, where the greysheet was being given out for free at the entrance and dealers were referring to it) saw the same Morgans being hawked for 360$ a piece.
I had picked them up a year ago at the local LCS for 200$ each (price being the sole motivation for the purchase) because had also seen it at another store for 225$.
What gives?
You are referring to our CPG (Collector's Price Guide) value), which represents suggested retail price. Greysheet is a wholesale value for specific reference in dealer-to-dealer transactions. We do not give Greysheet magazines out at shows, but we do often give CPG magazines out to attendees. It is also true that these were trading considerably lower just a year ago. Demand for Morgans is way up in the last 12+ months.
John Feigenbaum Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com) PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
You are referring to our CPG (Collector's Price Guide) value), which represents suggested retail price. Greysheet is a wholesale value for specific reference in dealer-to-dealer transactions. We do not give Greysheet magazines out at shows, but we do often give CPG magazines out to attendees. It is also true that these were trading considerably lower just a year ago. Demand for Morgans is way up in the last 12+ months.
My bad. I should have said CPG (as I did in the previous page of this thread).
But my point was the almost double the price difference for the two GSA mentioned that was tough to comprehend.
Greysheet is wholesale. Unless you are a dealer you need refer to CPG or CF. Nobody I know of makes money buying and selling at wholesale (Greysheet).
I do occasionally while setup at shows run into tirekickers or some dealer trawling quoting greysheet or bluesheet - in enjoying my hobby from my table I tell them “do u have one sell me at that?” Or my fav “send them a check.” Or if really obnoxious - “get outta here (laughing) go open up a shop.”
@DisneyFan said:
There are collectors who only collect CC coins, especially Morgan CCs. Are there are Barber collectors with the same mindset - only collect certain mints?
In reference to top grades - JohnF made the comment "Buyers are realizing that coins that were previously seen as common dates are extremely scarce in top grades (i.e. P-mints) making them highly desirable for Registry collections."
Does the definition of top grade Barbers (P-mints for example) include MS 64s? A full MS64 Barber dime set completed over time would cost upwards of $100,000 and would normally be completed by millionaires with excess liquid funds. Of course, the even higher grades and denominations require more funds. : )
Forget uncs. VF, XF, to low-end AU have all but disappeared in Barbers... regardless of P, O, S, or D mints.
A Barber Quartet is made up of Nickels, Dimes, Quarters, and Halves.
@ccmorgan said:
Can someone tell me grey sheet prices for 1878 CC Morgan and 1880-CC through 1885-CC Morgan in MS64 and MS65?
Thanks in advance.
CCMorgan
Yes.
Lol
Somehow, this thread got derailed. But the question is not so easy:
GSA or not GSA?
Slabbed or not?
Sight seen or sight unseen?
CAC or not?
Greysheet has sooo much information.
I can't see how MS64 and 65 can be that confusing?
There are multiple MS64 prices, see above
An 1884-Cc has the following prices depending on specifics:
365, 375. 390, 412.50, 429, 488, 507, 536, 558
And that ignored PL or DMPL options.
But only one MS64 price and one MS65 price.
You sound like a politician...just can't give a straight answer. lol
This thread turned into a blood bath.
Some acted like I was asking for the launch codes for ICBM'S.
Lets just say never mind and call it a day.
Those are ALL MS64 prices. Even if you are implying - you never say, just like a real politician - PCGS MS 64, non-GSA, non-CAC, there is still the blue, grey and retail prices.
Go with $365. The lowest price must be the safest, right?
I did not ask for MS64 or 65 non GSA or non CAC or PL or DMPL or VAM variant prices just 64 and 65 plain and simple.
But I guess that's too complicated.
I'll post some pics of a couple CC morgans I just purchased soon.
Have a good evening gentlemen....
There is NOT one number.
I swear I'm speaking English.
Who was asking for one number?
Just forget it.
It's a same some "coin" collectors can complicate issues like this.
UGH....
@ccmorgan said:
Can someone tell me grey sheet prices for 1878 CC Morgan and 1880-CC through 1885-CC Morgan in MS64 and MS65?
Thanks in advance.
CCMorgan
Yes.
Lol
Somehow, this thread got derailed. But the question is not so easy:
GSA or not GSA?
Slabbed or not?
Sight seen or sight unseen?
CAC or not?
Greysheet has sooo much information.
I can't see how MS64 and 65 can be that confusing?
There are multiple MS64 prices, see above
An 1884-Cc has the following prices depending on specifics:
365, 375. 390, 412.50, 429, 488, 507, 536, 558
And that ignored PL or DMPL options.
But only one MS64 price and one MS65 price.
You sound like a politician...just can't give a straight answer. lol
This thread turned into a blood bath.
Some acted like I was asking for the launch codes for ICBM'S.
Lets just say never mind and call it a day.
Those are ALL MS64 prices. Even if you are implying - you never say, just like a real politician - PCGS MS 64, non-GSA, non-CAC, there is still the blue, grey and retail prices.
Go with $365. The lowest price must be the safest, right?
I did not ask for MS64 or 65 non GSA or non CAC or PL or DMPL or VAM variant prices just 64 and 65 plain and simple.
But I guess that's too complicated.
I'll post some pics of a couple CC morgans I just purchased soon.
Have a good evening gentlemen....
There is NOT one number.
I swear I'm speaking English.
We can't hear what you're saying. We can only read what you have typed.
Forget uncs. VF, XF, to low-end AU have all but disappeared in Barbers... regardless of P, O, S, or D mints.
A quick check at Collectors Corner shows only 51 Barber Dimes for sale. But is that partly because it's not cost effective to have them graded?
My point was that price guide valuations on MS Barbers are not always logical given their populations and I wondered if one or two of the mints have a geographic popularity similar to the CC Morgan Dollars.
Where?
I was notified that you had quoted me and then seen that you have edited your post. And no the question has not been answered.
Can understand a few dollars difference but double the price is ridiculous regardless of sales volumes etc.
The stats are skewed for the small time collector like me to comprehend is all I am saying.
Forget uncs. VF, XF, to low-end AU have all but disappeared in Barbers... regardless of P, O, S, or D mints.
A quick check at Collectors Corner shows only 51 Barber Dimes for sale. But is that partly because it's not cost effective to have them graded?
My point was that price guide valuations on MS Barbers are not always logical given their populations and I wondered if one or two of the mints have a geographic popularity similar to the CC Morgan Dollars.
I should have mentioned I mainly try to collect XF quarters and that is what I am speaking of. Dimes, I guess you would be right (51 dimes) but I am not as interested and don't collect those as much (except for an occasional transaction). Halves are too expensive (if you do find them in XF or AU) and usually offered over price guide. Whether P, O, S, or D... doesn't matter. No 'geographic popularity' that I am aware of.
Logical pricing? If they are rarely available, pricing eventually goes up for those who bid on the few available... this is regardless of mintages.
Since you find interest in CC's ... Do you have any speculative thoughts why there are no '92-CC or '93-CC Barber coins?
My thoughts on recent CC interest I believe partially comes as a follow-up to Rusty Goe's three-volume effort being published. After you read that thing, you become more enamored than ever with CC coins. Same thing happened after the Feigenbaum's (@JohnF) wrote their Barber books (John and his dad David) up through the 1990's. Barber popularity followed in concert with the Barber Coin Collector Society (BCCS) being formed.
BTW, I am going to go sign-up for a CDN-thing after reading John Feigenbaum's suggestion in this thread. I don't have any helpful info on 64 or 65 pricing for CC Morgans. I have noticed the valuation of my '90-CC Morgan in PC64 has gone up recently, however.
A Barber Quartet is made up of Nickels, Dimes, Quarters, and Halves.
@vulcanize said:
Again, not for argument sake but rather curiosity about the skewed data - am taking the 1883 CC and 1884 CC GSA Morgans (with box and certificate) for example.
The greysheet has the OGP at 468$ (and assumes it is the same price for MS 61 as well as the MS 62).
At the coin show this past Saturday, where the greysheet was being given out for free at the entrance and dealers were referring to it) saw the same Morgans being hawked for 360$ a piece.
I had picked them up a year ago at the local LCS for 200$ each (price being the sole motivation for the purchase) because had also seen it at another store for 225$.
What gives?
Where?
I was notified that you had quoted me and then seen that you have edited your post. And no the question has not been answered.
Can understand a few dollars difference but double the price is ridiculous regardless of sales volumes etc.
The stats are skewed for the small time collector like me to comprehend is all I am saying.
You cannot buy them for $200 anymore. As a dealer, I'm paying over $300 now. 2 years ago, I was buying them for $180. They have literally doubled in the last 2 years.
Where?
I was notified that you had quoted me and then seen that you have edited your post. And no the question has not been answered.
Can understand a few dollars difference but double the price is ridiculous regardless of sales volumes etc.
The stats are skewed for the small time collector like me to comprehend is all I am saying.
I was referring to "OGP " and I think that was explained. I have trouble understanding your question. Would you mind restating it? I'm always interest in understanding the relative values of coins.
And the 1996 article also mentions Chinese counterfeiters back in the day
the following press dispatch with a Chicago, February 9,1906, dateline appeared in The Numismatist:
"Three counterfeit silver half dollars were found in a consignment of money which reached the United States sub-treasury yesterday from Texas. The coins cannot be detected as spurious except by the close inspection of an expert. Chief John E. Wilkie, of the United States Secret Service, identified them as some of a lot of counterfeit coins which were circulated in the United States three years ago, and were made in China by expert counterfeiters."
Below is a copy and paste from another old 2008 article.
At least for a brief period of time the two historically troublesome facilities were both used, but by the early 1890s it became clear that the era of large silver dollar mintages was coming to a close. There would be additional mintages, but not at the levels seen before. Having both New Orleans and Carson City in operation at the same time was not required. The decision was made to cease coin production as of 1893 at Carson City. That was the year following the first Barber dime mintage at New Orleans.
@ccmorgan said:
Can someone tell me grey sheet prices for 1878 CC Morgan and 1880-CC through 1885-CC Morgan in MS64 and MS65?
Thanks in advance.
CCMorgan
Yes.
Lol
Somehow, this thread got derailed. But the question is not so easy:
GSA or not GSA?
Slabbed or not?
Sight seen or sight unseen?
CAC or not?
Greysheet has sooo much information.
I can't see how MS64 and 65 can be that confusing?
There are multiple MS64 prices, see above
An 1884-Cc has the following prices depending on specifics:
365, 375. 390, 412.50, 429, 488, 507, 536, 558
And that ignored PL or DMPL options.
But only one MS64 price and one MS65 price.
You sound like a politician...just can't give a straight answer. lol
This thread turned into a blood bath.
Some acted like I was asking for the launch codes for ICBM'S.
Lets just say never mind and call it a day.
Those are ALL MS64 prices. Even if you are implying - you never say, just like a real politician - PCGS MS 64, non-GSA, non-CAC, there is still the blue, grey and retail prices.
Go with $365. The lowest price must be the safest, right?
I did not ask for MS64 or 65 non GSA or non CAC or PL or DMPL or VAM variant prices just 64 and 65 plain and simple.
But I guess that's too complicated.
I'll post some pics of a couple CC morgans I just purchased soon.
Have a good evening gentlemen....
There is NOT one number.
I swear I'm speaking English.
Who was asking for one number?
Just forget it.
It's a same some "coin" collectors can complicate issues like this.
UGH....
You are simply not understanding. Greysheet has multiple values for the coin in "64". You need to specify GSA or nonGSA, slabbed or raw, CAC or non-CAC, bid or ask. These are all different prices for a "64" coin.
You still haven't even indicated whether these coins are raw or slabbed. "Coin collectors" treat them differently.
@ccmorgan said:
Can someone tell me grey sheet prices for 1878 CC Morgan and 1880-CC through 1885-CC Morgan in MS64 and MS65?
Thanks in advance.
CCMorgan
Yes.
Lol
Somehow, this thread got derailed. But the question is not so easy:
GSA or not GSA?
Slabbed or not?
Sight seen or sight unseen?
CAC or not?
Greysheet has sooo much information.
I can't see how MS64 and 65 can be that confusing?
There are multiple MS64 prices, see above
An 1884-Cc has the following prices depending on specifics:
365, 375. 390, 412.50, 429, 488, 507, 536, 558
And that ignored PL or DMPL options.
But only one MS64 price and one MS65 price.
You sound like a politician...just can't give a straight answer. lol
This thread turned into a blood bath.
Some acted like I was asking for the launch codes for ICBM'S.
Lets just say never mind and call it a day.
Those are ALL MS64 prices. Even if you are implying - you never say, just like a real politician - PCGS MS 64, non-GSA, non-CAC, there is still the blue, grey and retail prices.
Go with $365. The lowest price must be the safest, right?
I did not ask for MS64 or 65 non GSA or non CAC or PL or DMPL or VAM variant prices just 64 and 65 plain and simple.
But I guess that's too complicated.
I'll post some pics of a couple CC morgans I just purchased soon.
Have a good evening gentlemen....
There is NOT one number.
I swear I'm speaking English.
We can't hear what you're saying. We can only read what you have typed.
@jmlanzaf said:
You cannot buy them for $200 anymore. As a dealer, I'm paying over $300 now. 2 years ago, I was buying them for $180. They have literally doubled in the last 2 years.
Okay, but still does not explain the 108$ difference from 360 USD it was being offered at the show (and also the average sale price on eBay). That's still over 25% to be ignored as a guide.
@jmlanzaf said:
You cannot buy them for $200 anymore. As a dealer, I'm paying over $300 now. 2 years ago, I was buying them for $180. They have literally doubled in the last 2 years.
Okay, but still does not explain the 108$ difference from 360 USD it was being offered at the show (and also the average sale price on eBay). That's still over 25% to be ignored as a guide.
The CPG is retail not wholesale. $360 is the greysheet price. $450 is rather steep, but that is the CPG retail price. Personally, I don't know anyone who prices by CPG.
@DisneyFan said:
I was referring to "OGP " and I think that was explained. I have trouble understanding your question. Would you mind restating it? I'm always interest in understanding the relative values of coins.
I was just trying to understand the semantics of the guide pricing with an example of the 1883 and 1884 CC in GSA (my post with respect to that is the last one on page 1).
Earlier had wondered about the pricing of the full set of the 73 barber halves (please see my post on page 1 of this thread) but so far nothing conclusive.
Ebay prices for sales data of the collections in the raw is a wide spectrum but way lower prices realized even though the 2021 redbook had the whole 1892-1915 set at 2870 USD in G4 and the CPG had pegged the same at 3080$
Perhaps a very helpful tool for the dealers but not necessarily the small time buyer.
BTW, I am going to go sign-up for a CDN-thing after reading John Feigenbaum's suggestion in this thread. I don't have any helpful info on 64 or 65 pricing for CC Morgans. I have noticed the valuation of my '90-CC Morgan in PC64 has gone up recently, however.
I think greysheet.com might be having issues. I got an "Address not found" reply related to cdn@greysheet.com. I also couldn't submit my password entry and get into the system to purchase anything.
@DisneyFan said:
I was referring to "OGP " and I think that was explained. I have trouble understanding your question. Would you mind restating it? I'm always interest in understanding the relative values of coins.
I was just trying to understand the semantics of the guide pricing with an example of the 1883 and 1884 CC in GSA (my post with respect to that is the last one on page 1).
Earlier had wondered about the pricing of the full set of the 73 barber halves (please see my post on page 1 of this thread) but so far nothing conclusive.
Ebay prices for sales data of the collections in the raw is a wide spectrum but way lower prices realized even though the 2021 redbook had the whole 1892-1915 set at 2870 USD in G4 and the CPG had pegged the same at 3080$
Perhaps a very helpful tool for the dealers but not necessarily the small time buyer.
I use Greysheet to both buy and sell. I'm not sure why this is such an issue.
Set prices are useless to judge ebay sales as 1 or 2 key problem coins will move the price significantly.
As for the Greysheet on the 1884CC. The CPG seems high for current market at $450, but I would note that the PCGS l
Price guide agrees. But I have no problem, based on greysheet prices, buying GSAs at $325 and selling at $360.
@jmlanzaf said:
I'm not sure why this is such an issue.
The thread started off with someone asking for a price on MS-64 and MS-65 greysheet prices and we seemed to have complete gone a whole circle trying to grapple with pricing actualities.
Bottomline is that it may not be very realistic for a buyer to only rely on CPG price guide alone.
Those numbers perhaps need to be reworked and refined to more relateable levels I s'pose.
@jmlanzaf said:
I'm not sure why this is such an issue.
The thread started off with someone asking for a price on MS-64 and MS-65 greysheet prices and we seemed to have complete gone a whole circle trying to grapple with pricing actualities.
Bottomline is that it may not be very realistic for a buyer to only rely on CPG price guide alone.
Those numbers perhaps need to be reworked and refined to more relateable levels I s'pose.
I wouldn't recommend someone rely on any retail price solely. With respect to our hosts, I never even look at the PCGS price guide. And while I love greysheet, I dint look at the CPG even though I have it here. I find it much more accurate to calculate ask from greysheet bid. YMMV
@jmlanzaf said:
I wouldn't recommend someone rely on any retail price solely. With respect to our hosts, I never even look at the PCGS price guide. And while I love greysheet, I dint look at the CPG even though I have it here. I find it much more accurate to calculate ask from greysheet bid. YMMV
Naah!!!! Hard pass from me because a dealer tried to show me what a bargain I was getting - one third price off the numbers quoted in the CPG - not a complete novice or my first rodeo.
BTW, I am going to go sign-up for a CDN-thing after reading John Feigenbaum's suggestion in this thread. I don't have any helpful info on 64 or 65 pricing for CC Morgans. I have noticed the valuation of my '90-CC Morgan in PC64 has gone up recently, however.
I think greysheet.com might be having issues. I got an "Address not found" reply related to cdn@greysheet.com. I also couldn't submit my password entry and get into the system to purchase anything.
Please email us at orders@greysheet.com or support@greysheet.com. Not sure where that error is coming from, but we are about to launch a new site, so there might be something changing on the back end. My apologies for the inconvenience.
John Feigenbaum Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com) PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
Where does it mention 450 USD for an ungraded GSA? Please guide me with a link because I don't see it.
Again, guides are guides, not bibles.
Agreed but the redbook seems to be closer to nailing the actual retail price.
Arguing over a single price out of thousands of prices seems silly.
Now you are being patronizing and condescending.
It was not just a single price. Started with my query about the Barber halves in G4.
CPG is a separate product. I don't know where they get those prices but greysheet data comes from actual bids and results.
CPG is a greysheet publication and says so on the cover itself.
CPG is a CDN publication but it is a separate product. I know where the greysheet data comes from. I don't know where the CPG data comes from.
The PCGS price to which I refer is the 62 price. They don't quote an OGP price but they should be about the same thing. Although the OGP price is typically slightly higher than the 62 price.
@jmlanzaf said:
CPG is a CDN publication but it is a separate product. I know where the greysheet data comes from. I don't know where the CPG data comes from.
Yes, I am aware. All I am saying is that the CPG info needs to be more accurate and streamlined if the greysheet is spot on.
The PCGS price to which I refer is the 62 price. They don't quote an OGP price but they should be about the same thing. Although the OGP price is typically slightly higher than the 62 price.
And no, it is not 450$ for PCGS as you have mentioned earlier. The averages are way way lower even without including eBay sales.
CPG had same prices for the OGP, 61 and 62 (see below screen shot of the same), like I said, not an argument but rather just an observation, noting that the data needs to be correct going forward.
@jmlanzaf said:
CPG is a CDN publication but it is a separate product. I know where the greysheet data comes from. I don't know where the CPG data comes from.
Yes, I am aware. All I am saying is that the CPG info needs to be more accurate and streamlined if the greysheet is spot on.
The PCGS price to which I refer is the 62 price. They don't quote an OGP price but they should be about the same thing. Although the OGP price is typically slightly higher than the 62 price.
And no, it is not 450$ for PCGS as you have mentioned earlier. The averages are way way lower even without including eBay sales.
CPG had same prices for the OGP, 61 and 62 (see below screen shot of the same), like I said, not an argument but rather just an observation, noting that the data needs to be correct going forward.
I'm talking about the PCGS price guide which has the value at $450. I'm not suggesting that price is market price. As I've already said, $360 (up to $380) is the correct price in the market.
@jmlanzaf said:
I'm talking about the PCGS price guide which has the value at $450 .
That is for the MS 63 and not 62 or 61.
I'm not suggesting that price is market price. As I've already said, $360 (up to $380) is the correct price in the market.
Precisely. As a person walking into a coin show and getting one of the CPG guides, it has to make some sort of realistic sense. That's it.
End of discussion.
Cheers.
@jmlanzaf said:
I'm talking about the PCGS price guide which has the value at $450 .
That is for the MS 63 and not 62 or 61.
I'm not suggesting that price is market price. As I've already said, $360 (up to $380) is the correct price in the market.
Precisely. As a person walking into a coin show and getting one of the CPG guides, it has to make some sort of realistic sense. That's it.
End of discussion.
Cheers.
Forget uncs. VF, XF, to low-end AU have all but disappeared in Barbers... regardless of P, O, S, or D mints.
A quick check at Collectors Corner shows only 51 Barber Dimes for sale. But is that partly because it's not cost effective to have them graded?
My point was that price guide valuations on MS Barbers are not always logical given their populations and I wondered if one or two of the mints have a geographic popularity similar to the CC Morgan Dollars.
Forget uncs. VF, XF, to low-end AU have all but disappeared in Barbers... regardless of P, O, S, or D mints.
A quick check at Collectors Corner shows only 51 Barber Dimes for sale. But is that partly because it's not cost effective to have them graded?
My point was that price guide valuations on MS Barbers are not always logical given their populations and I wondered if one or two of the mints have a geographic popularity similar to the CC Morgan Dollars.
That would have been my guess for the Mint. CC was the "West" and O was the "Confederacy".
... by the early 1890s it became clear that the era of large silver dollar mintages was coming to a close. There would be additional mintages, but not at the levels seen before. Having both New Orleans and Carson City in operation at the same time was not required. The decision was made to cease coin production as of 1893 at Carson City. That was the year following the first Barber dime mintage at New Orleans.
CPG MV is based on (drawn from) CDN bid. They even state this. I have researched this extensively. Much of it is proprietary data for me. Its your responsibility do your own analysis / research. There is no free ride in RCI.
I realize there are people stuck in the concept of wholesale bid. However I am not stuck on one method nor run a smash mouth offense. My bids/ offers based on what I can sell an item for. So MV whether CPG or CF a more pertinent factor for me in my internal make offer equation. For just have to have it material exceptionally rare (low single digit pop world for example) or PQ cost plus comes into play.
Presently I have free apps in my phone for CPG and CF which works good enough for me. However I do take the CPG qtrly publication along w their qtrly CAC market report.
@jmlanzaf said:
I'm talking about the PCGS price guide which has the value at $450 .
That is for the MS 63 and not 62 or 61.
I'm not suggesting that price is market price. As I've already said, $360 (up to $380) is the correct price in the market.
Precisely. As a person walking into a coin show and getting one of the CPG guides, it has to make some sort of realistic sense. That's it.
End of discussion.
Cheers.
I know you always want to get your last word in plus fudge facts to suit your convenience, but no, that price of 450$ is for a 62+ and the PCGS price guide has just gone up a notch from 450$ to 460$ today for the MS 63 of the 1883 CC and 1884 CC that was used as an example.
The price for the 1883 MS 62 has been stagnant at 410 USD for the past 8 months with the PCGS price guide mentioning it to be on the upward move at 415$. https://www.pcgs.com/pricehistory#/?=7144-62
Essentially CPG market review is a convenient tool for the dealers to show the prices on them to naive folks and say, hey you are getting a bargain with one third price off list price, which essentially is the actual retail price because the numbers shown are already jacked up and that there really seems to be no consistency with listing practices (see my attached picture in previous post where the details have been circled in red). Talk about deceptive marketing to rub more salt.
My point has been made and really do not wish to engage in anymore back and forth on this.
@jmlanzaf said:
I'm talking about the PCGS price guide which has the value at $450 .
That is for the MS 63 and not 62 or 61.
I'm not suggesting that price is market price. As I've already said, $360 (up to $380) is the correct price in the market.
Precisely. As a person walking into a coin show and getting one of the CPG guides, it has to make some sort of realistic sense. That's it.
End of discussion.
Cheers.
I know you always want to get your last word in plus fudge facts to suit your convenience, but no, that price of 450$ is for a 62+ and the PCGS price guide has just gone up a notch from 450$ to 460$ today for the MS 63 of the 1883 CC and 1884 CC that was used as an example.
The price for the 1883 MS 62 has been stagnant at 410 USD for the past 8 months with the PCGS price guide mentioning it to be on the upward move at 415$. https://www.pcgs.com/pricehistory#/?=7144-62
Essentially CPG market review is a convenient tool for the dealers to show the prices on them to naive folks and say, hey you are getting a bargain with one third price off list price, which essentially is the actual retail price because the numbers shown are already jacked up and that there really seems to be no consistency with listing practices (see my attached picture in previous post where the details have been circled in red). Talk about deceptive marketing to rub more salt.
My point has been made and really do not wish to engage in anymore back and forth
That's unnecessarily insulting and accusatory. But, i guess that's just your way.
62/62+ The bottom line is that the PCGS and CDN CPG prices are consistent. They are also both wrong.
I've mostly been agreeing with you this whole time and yet you feel the need to insult me. Interesting character study.
@jmlanzaf said:
That's unnecessarily insulting and accusatory. But, i guess that's just your way.
You are reading into it way too much, but if that is the way you feel, go ahead and play the victim card. If the shoe fits, wear it because truth hurts.
62/62+ The bottom line is that the PCGS and CDN CPG prices are consistent. They are also both wrong.
It started off with the OGP and you were the one who went off the tangent trying to derail. When called out for it, suddenly becoming defensive, twisting words and accusing me of posting imaginary stuff.
I've mostly been agreeing with you this whole time and yet you feel the need to insult me. Interesting character study.
No you have not. From the get go it has been a confuse if can't convince approach and then cry foul when cornered with facts.
@vulcanize said:
Essentially CPG market review is a convenient tool for the dealers to show the prices on them to naive folks and say, hey you are getting a bargain with one third price off list price, which essentially is the actual retail price because the numbers shown are already jacked up and that there really seems to be no consistency with listing practices (see my attached picture in previous post where the details have been circled in red). Talk about deceptive marketing to rub more salt.
@MasonG said:
What do you think about pricing in the Redbook?
Found that the 2021 edition was much closer to reality in comparison to the numbers in the latest CPG Market review when I looked up the prices for Barber Halves in G4. The two below links are my own posts in this very thread, but thought it would better explain the findings.
@MasonG said:
What do you think about pricing in the Redbook?
Found that the 2021 edition was much closer to reality in comparison to the numbers in the latest CPG Market review when I looked up the prices for Barber Halves in G4.
Ok. Fair enough. What about other grades? Other denominations? Other coin series?
@jmlanzaf said:
That's unnecessarily insulting and accusatory. But, i guess that's just your way.
You are reading into it way too much, but if that is the way you feel, go ahead and play the victim card. If the shoe fits, wear it because truth hurts.
62/62+ The bottom line is that the PCGS and CDN CPG prices are consistent. They are also both wrong.
It started off with the OGP and you were the one who went off the tangent trying to derail. When called out for it, suddenly becoming defensive, twisting words and accusing me of posting imaginary stuff.
I've mostly been agreeing with you this whole time and yet you feel the need to insult me. Interesting character study.
No you have not. From the get go it has been a confuse if can't convince approach and then cry foul when cornered with facts.
None of that is true. I have from the beginning been critical of the CPG (and PCGS price guide) while extolling the Greysheet itself. I have no idea why you think otherwise. I still hold the same positions.
I'm glad you are doubling down on the insults. Consistency of character is important.
@MasonG said:
What do you think about pricing in the Redbook?
Found that the 2021 edition was much closer to reality in comparison to the numbers in the latest CPG Market review when I looked up the prices for Barber Halves in G4.
Ok. Fair enough. What about other grades? Other denominations? Other coin series?
This past Saturday, I reached the show rather late after a two hour drive and most tables were either closed or the dealers were in the process of wrapping up.
So basically it was just checking out and comparing prices on the Barber halves and the 1883/1884 cc GSA Morgans at the ones that were still open. Incidentally, I have all the coins mentioned above but was looking at the possibility of upgrading them versus sending it in for grading and hence the quest.
The post by Jzyskowski1 in the first page of this thread is exactly what motivated me to share my own experience and post my findings
Comments
Que?
You are referring to our CPG (Collector's Price Guide) value), which represents suggested retail price. Greysheet is a wholesale value for specific reference in dealer-to-dealer transactions. We do not give Greysheet magazines out at shows, but we do often give CPG magazines out to attendees. It is also true that these were trading considerably lower just a year ago. Demand for Morgans is way up in the last 12+ months.
Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com)
PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
My bad. I should have said CPG (as I did in the previous page of this thread).
But my point was the almost double the price difference for the two GSA mentioned that was tough to comprehend.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
Greysheet is wholesale. Unless you are a dealer you need refer to CPG or CF. Nobody I know of makes money buying and selling at wholesale (Greysheet).
I do occasionally while setup at shows run into tirekickers or some dealer trawling quoting greysheet or bluesheet - in enjoying my hobby from my table I tell them “do u have one sell me at that?” Or my fav “send them a check.” Or if really obnoxious - “get outta here (laughing) go open up a shop.”
Forget uncs. VF, XF, to low-end AU have all but disappeared in Barbers... regardless of P, O, S, or D mints.
A Barber Quartet is made up of Nickels, Dimes, Quarters, and Halves.
Who was asking for one number?
Just forget it.
It's a same some "coin" collectors can complicate issues like this.
UGH....
Question answered
We can't hear what you're saying. We can only read what you have typed.
Smitten with DBLCs.
A quick check at Collectors Corner shows only 51 Barber Dimes for sale. But is that partly because it's not cost effective to have them graded?
My point was that price guide valuations on MS Barbers are not always logical given their populations and I wondered if one or two of the mints have a geographic popularity similar to the CC Morgan Dollars.
Where?
I was notified that you had quoted me and then seen that you have edited your post. And no the question has not been answered.
Can understand a few dollars difference but double the price is ridiculous regardless of sales volumes etc.
The stats are skewed for the small time collector like me to comprehend is all I am saying.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
I should have mentioned I mainly try to collect XF quarters and that is what I am speaking of. Dimes, I guess you would be right (51 dimes) but I am not as interested and don't collect those as much (except for an occasional transaction). Halves are too expensive (if you do find them in XF or AU) and usually offered over price guide. Whether P, O, S, or D... doesn't matter. No 'geographic popularity' that I am aware of.
Logical pricing? If they are rarely available, pricing eventually goes up for those who bid on the few available... this is regardless of mintages.
Since you find interest in CC's ... Do you have any speculative thoughts why there are no '92-CC or '93-CC Barber coins?
My thoughts on recent CC interest I believe partially comes as a follow-up to Rusty Goe's three-volume effort being published. After you read that thing, you become more enamored than ever with CC coins. Same thing happened after the Feigenbaum's (@JohnF) wrote their Barber books (John and his dad David) up through the 1990's. Barber popularity followed in concert with the Barber Coin Collector Society (BCCS) being formed.
BTW, I am going to go sign-up for a CDN-thing after reading John Feigenbaum's suggestion in this thread. I don't have any helpful info on 64 or 65 pricing for CC Morgans. I have noticed the valuation of my '90-CC Morgan in PC64 has gone up recently, however.
A Barber Quartet is made up of Nickels, Dimes, Quarters, and Halves.
They've been hot the last year or two.
You cannot buy them for $200 anymore. As a dealer, I'm paying over $300 now. 2 years ago, I was buying them for $180. They have literally doubled in the last 2 years.
I was referring to "OGP " and I think that was explained. I have trouble understanding your question. Would you mind restating it? I'm always interest in understanding the relative values of coins.
https://www.pcgs.com/news/collecting-barber-half-dollars
And the 1996 article also mentions Chinese counterfeiters back in the day
"Three counterfeit silver half dollars were found in a consignment of money which reached the United States sub-treasury yesterday from Texas. The coins cannot be detected as spurious except by the close inspection of an expert. Chief John E. Wilkie, of the United States Secret Service, identified them as some of a lot of counterfeit coins which were circulated in the United States three years ago, and were made in China by expert counterfeiters."
Below is a copy and paste from another old 2008 article.
https://www.numismaticnews.net/archive/new-orleans-stopped-short-on-barber-dimes
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
You are simply not understanding. Greysheet has multiple values for the coin in "64". You need to specify GSA or nonGSA, slabbed or raw, CAC or non-CAC, bid or ask. These are all different prices for a "64" coin.
You still haven't even indicated whether these coins are raw or slabbed. "Coin collectors" treat them differently.
EVEN IF I SHOUT????
QUE????
Okay, but still does not explain the 108$ difference from 360 USD it was being offered at the show (and also the average sale price on eBay). That's still over 25% to be ignored as a guide.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
The CPG is retail not wholesale. $360 is the greysheet price. $450 is rather steep, but that is the CPG retail price. Personally, I don't know anyone who prices by CPG.
I was just trying to understand the semantics of the guide pricing with an example of the 1883 and 1884 CC in GSA (my post with respect to that is the last one on page 1).
Earlier had wondered about the pricing of the full set of the 73 barber halves (please see my post on page 1 of this thread) but so far nothing conclusive.
Ebay prices for sales data of the collections in the raw is a wide spectrum but way lower prices realized even though the 2021 redbook had the whole 1892-1915 set at 2870 USD in G4 and the CPG had pegged the same at 3080$
Perhaps a very helpful tool for the dealers but not necessarily the small time buyer.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
I think greysheet.com might be having issues. I got an "Address not found" reply related to cdn@greysheet.com. I also couldn't submit my password entry and get into the system to purchase anything.
EDIT: Error message
"550 5.4.1 All recipient addresses rejected : Access denied. AS(201806271)"
A Barber Quartet is made up of Nickels, Dimes, Quarters, and Halves.
Yes. Agreed.
Yes. Also agreed.
So realistically speaking, why is that number even there if no one follows it? Something like Maximum Retail price and it cannot go over etc.?
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
I use Greysheet to both buy and sell. I'm not sure why this is such an issue.
Set prices are useless to judge ebay sales as 1 or 2 key problem coins will move the price significantly.
As for the Greysheet on the 1884CC. The CPG seems high for current market at $450, but I would note that the PCGS l
Price guide agrees. But I have no problem, based on greysheet prices, buying GSAs at $325 and selling at $360.
Why is the PCGS price $450?
Again, guides are guides, not bibles. Arguing over a single price out of thousands of prices seems silly.
CPG is a separate product. I don't know where they get those prices but greysheet data comes from actual bids and results.
The thread started off with someone asking for a price on MS-64 and MS-65 greysheet prices and we seemed to have complete gone a whole circle trying to grapple with pricing actualities.
Bottomline is that it may not be very realistic for a buyer to only rely on CPG price guide alone.
Those numbers perhaps need to be reworked and refined to more relateable levels I s'pose.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
I wouldn't recommend someone rely on any retail price solely. With respect to our hosts, I never even look at the PCGS price guide. And while I love greysheet, I dint look at the CPG even though I have it here. I find it much more accurate to calculate ask from greysheet bid. YMMV
Where does it mention 450 USD for an ungraded GSA? Please guide me with a link because I don't see it.
Agreed but the redbook seems to be closer to nailing the actual retail price.
Now you are being patronizing and condescending.
It was not just a single price. Started with my query about the Barber halves in G4.
CPG is a greysheet publication and says so on the cover itself.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
Naah!!!! Hard pass from me because a dealer tried to show me what a bargain I was getting - one third price off the numbers quoted in the CPG - not a complete novice or my first rodeo.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
Please email us at orders@greysheet.com or support@greysheet.com. Not sure where that error is coming from, but we are about to launch a new site, so there might be something changing on the back end. My apologies for the inconvenience.
Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com)
PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
CPG is a CDN publication but it is a separate product. I know where the greysheet data comes from. I don't know where the CPG data comes from.
The PCGS price to which I refer is the 62 price. They don't quote an OGP price but they should be about the same thing. Although the OGP price is typically slightly higher than the 62 price.
Yes, I am aware. All I am saying is that the CPG info needs to be more accurate and streamlined if the greysheet is spot on.
And no, it is not 450$ for PCGS as you have mentioned earlier. The averages are way way lower even without including eBay sales.
GSA 1883 CC
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1883-cc-1-gsa-hoard/518869
GSA 1884 CC
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1884-cc-1-gsa-hoard/518872
CPG had same prices for the OGP, 61 and 62 (see below screen shot of the same), like I said, not an argument but rather just an observation, noting that the data needs to be correct going forward.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
I'm talking about the PCGS price guide which has the value at $450. I'm not suggesting that price is market price. As I've already said, $360 (up to $380) is the correct price in the market.
That is for the MS 63 and not 62 or 61.
Precisely. As a person walking into a coin show and getting one of the CPG guides, it has to make some sort of realistic sense. That's it.
End of discussion.
Cheers.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
No, it's not. It's a 62
The only Mint I've had(2) customers specialize in was New Orleans.
That would have been my guess for the Mint. CC was the "West" and O was the "Confederacy".
... by the early 1890s it became clear that the era of large silver dollar mintages was coming to a close. There would be additional mintages, but not at the levels seen before. Having both New Orleans and Carson City in operation at the same time was not required. The decision was made to cease coin production as of 1893 at Carson City. That was the year following the first Barber dime mintage at New Orleans.
Thank you for sharing that historical perspective
CPG MV is based on (drawn from) CDN bid. They even state this. I have researched this extensively. Much of it is proprietary data for me. Its your responsibility do your own analysis / research. There is no free ride in RCI.
I realize there are people stuck in the concept of wholesale bid. However I am not stuck on one method nor run a smash mouth offense. My bids/ offers based on what I can sell an item for. So MV whether CPG or CF a more pertinent factor for me in my internal make offer equation. For just have to have it material exceptionally rare (low single digit pop world for example) or PQ cost plus comes into play.
Presently I have free apps in my phone for CPG and CF which works good enough for me. However I do take the CPG qtrly publication along w their qtrly CAC market report.
My pleasure. I love the trade dollars and it was fun reading up on all these interesting tidbits.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
I know you always want to get your last word in plus fudge facts to suit your convenience, but no, that price of 450$ is for a 62+ and the PCGS price guide has just gone up a notch from 450$ to 460$ today for the MS 63 of the 1883 CC and 1884 CC that was used as an example.
The price for the 1883 MS 62 has been stagnant at 410 USD for the past 8 months with the PCGS price guide mentioning it to be on the upward move at 415$.
https://www.pcgs.com/pricehistory#/?=7144-62
And ditto for the 1884 MS 62 also holding steady at 410 amd price guide at 415$
https://www.pcgs.com/pricehistory#/?=7152-62
Essentially CPG market review is a convenient tool for the dealers to show the prices on them to naive folks and say, hey you are getting a bargain with one third price off list price, which essentially is the actual retail price because the numbers shown are already jacked up and that there really seems to be no consistency with listing practices (see my attached picture in previous post where the details have been circled in red). Talk about deceptive marketing to rub more salt.
My point has been made and really do not wish to engage in anymore back and forth on this.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
That's unnecessarily insulting and accusatory. But, i guess that's just your way.
62/62+ The bottom line is that the PCGS and CDN CPG prices are consistent. They are also both wrong.
I've mostly been agreeing with you this whole time and yet you feel the need to insult me. Interesting character study.
Since you edited your post......
You are reading into it way too much, but if that is the way you feel, go ahead and play the victim card. If the shoe fits, wear it because truth hurts.
It started off with the OGP and you were the one who went off the tangent trying to derail. When called out for it, suddenly becoming defensive, twisting words and accusing me of posting imaginary stuff.
No you have not. From the get go it has been a confuse if can't convince approach and then cry foul when cornered with facts.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
Helpful thread. NOT!!!!!
What do you think about pricing in the Redbook?
Found that the 2021 edition was much closer to reality in comparison to the numbers in the latest CPG Market review when I looked up the prices for Barber Halves in G4. The two below links are my own posts in this very thread, but thought it would better explain the findings.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13183725#Comment_13183725
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/13185649#Comment_13185649
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
Ok. Fair enough. What about other grades? Other denominations? Other coin series?
None of that is true. I have from the beginning been critical of the CPG (and PCGS price guide) while extolling the Greysheet itself. I have no idea why you think otherwise. I still hold the same positions.
I'm glad you are doubling down on the insults. Consistency of character is important.
This past Saturday, I reached the show rather late after a two hour drive and most tables were either closed or the dealers were in the process of wrapping up.
So basically it was just checking out and comparing prices on the Barber halves and the 1883/1884 cc GSA Morgans at the ones that were still open. Incidentally, I have all the coins mentioned above but was looking at the possibility of upgrading them versus sending it in for grading and hence the quest.
The post by Jzyskowski1 in the first page of this thread is exactly what motivated me to share my own experience and post my findings
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091