@jmlanzaf said:
None of that is true. I have from the beginning been critical of the CPG (and PCGS price guide) while extolling the Greysheet itself. I have no idea why you think otherwise. I still hold the same positions.
I'm glad you are doubling down on the insults. Consistency of character is important.
Character slander accusations probably need some ambulance chasing attorney to pursue.
I really hate to see this thread go negative. There have been a lot of good points made and my takeaway is that, here at CDN/Greysheet, we could do a better job explaining our pricing and the context of which prices should be used and by whom. The PCGS pricing team does an excellent job with pricing as well, which I feel is strongly worth mentioning.
In that context I will reach out to my friends at PCGS and see if there's an appetite to do a joint webinar on pricing in general. Would that be interesting?
John Feigenbaum Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com) PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
@JohnF said:
There have been a lot of good points made and my takeaway is that, here at CDN/Greysheet, we could do a better job explaining our pricing and the context of which prices should be used and by whom.
You could try, but as long as collectors (retail buyers) think they should be able to buy/sell at wholesale prices, you're not going to have a lot of success.
@JohnF said:
There have been a lot of good points made and my takeaway is that, here at CDN/Greysheet, we could do a better job explaining our pricing and the context of which prices should be used and by whom.
You could try, but as long as collectors (retail buyers) think they should be able to buy/sell at wholesale prices, you're not going to have a lot of success.
JMO, of course.
I would love to address that topic.
John Feigenbaum Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com) PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
That would be an interesting discussion. The way things seem to go right now is based on the fact that everybody knows (or can easily enough find) what greysheet values are. Retail buyers (collectors) don't see any reason they should pay more than wholesale buyers (other dealers), so the path of least resistance for many dealers is to sell based on greysheet values (for you, a special price) and buy at lower levels. Of course, that means that those retail buyers (collectors), when they go to sell, are offered below greysheet for their coins as the dealer who's buying will obviously expect to make something on the deal. And the retail buyers (collectors) complain that they're being taken advantage of because they can't sell to dealers at greysheet prices.
This thread has been very entertaining, thanks to all who contributed. I would mention that I use to subscribe to grey sheet years ago when i was actively collecting. I recently got active again in the hobby and bought a single digital issue that really helped me price some coins that i was selling at the Long Beach Show. With that being said, i do beleive in supporting the hobby and entrepreneurs that make this hobby better and plan on subscribing again to Greysheet.
Thanks for your work product John.
@JohnF said:
I really hate to see this thread go negative. There have been a lot of good points made and my takeaway is that, here at CDN/Greysheet, we could do a better job explaining our pricing and the context of which prices should be used and by whom. The PCGS pricing team does an excellent job with pricing as well, which I feel is strongly worth mentioning.
In that context I will reach out to my friends at PCGS and see if there's an appetite to do a joint webinar on pricing in general. Would that be interesting?
I would definitely be interested in such a discussion. I think it is very complex, especially with ebay, traditional auction houses, coin shows, retail coin stores, private commercial websites and instagram/Facebook venues.
That would be an interesting discussion. The way things seem to go right now is based on the fact that everybody knows (or can easily enough find) what greysheet values are. Retail buyers (collectors) don't see any reason they should pay more than wholesale buyers (other dealers), so the path of least resistance for many dealers is to sell based on greysheet values (for you, a special price) and buy at lower levels. Of course, that means that those retail buyers (collectors), when they go to sell, are offered below greysheet for their coins as the dealer who's buying will obviously expect to make something on the deal. And the retail buyers (collectors) complain that they're being taken advantage of because they can't sell to dealers at greysheet prices.
Where to go from here? I don't know.
And don't forget the complication of sales tax that the retail buyers want deducted from the coin price and the abhorrent auction fees. Collectors feel coins are a commodity that should trade without transaction costs rather than a retail purchase.
@jmlanzaf said:
And don't forget the complication of sales tax that the retail buyers want deducted from the coin price and the abhorrent auction fees. Collectors feel coins are a commodity that should trade without transaction costs rather than a retail purchase.
@JohnF said:
I really hate to see this thread go negative. There have been a lot of good points made and my takeaway is that, here at CDN/Greysheet, we could do a better job explaining our pricing and the context of which prices should be used and by whom. The PCGS pricing team does an excellent job with pricing as well, which I feel is strongly worth mentioning.
In that context I will reach out to my friends at PCGS and see if there's an appetite to do a joint webinar on pricing in general. Would that be interesting?
John
I don't think it has really turned negative. Of course, there have been some negative things said, but that is almost inevitable here. Overall, the thread has been very informative. I used to have a subscription to the Greysheet when I was buying and selling a lot more, but I gave it up. I believe I am going to pick it up again. The changes that have been made are largely positive and the pricing is responsive to the market. Also, I was at my favorite coin ship pricing coins for the owner and I noticed that your on-line version of the Greysheet has a bunch of information and pricing that is not available in print. That is very helpful. Of course, some prices are off, and some prices lag, but it remains for me the best regularly available print and digital method for pricing coins on the buy and sell side for the broadest available range of coins. I was particularly impressed to hear how it is accepted in expert testimony. So, keep up the good work! It looks like you may have picked up a few subscriptions from this thread alone.
‘I was particularly impressed to hear how it is accepted in expert testimony.”
The key to being an expert (on any subject) is to know more than anyone else on the subject matter at hand. As for coins, the sheet is very important, as was probably my research of 3 years (day by day) on the buy and sells of the pertinent coins on the CCE dealer network (real trades from 800 dealers), eBay, etc., etc. You can never have too much information. It’s just about what conclusions the expert reaches after analyzing everything.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Any business has to markup its material to stay afloat. I know many on the bourse and online who use the keystone markup on various groups of material (cost plus 100pct). 10c on the dollar does not cut it in the coin business. CPG is a very fair price for collectors to pay. Heck I have seen bay auctions where not even that will win it.
That would be an interesting discussion. The way things seem to go right now is based on the fact that everybody knows (or can easily enough find) what greysheet values are. Retail buyers (collectors) don't see any reason they should pay more than wholesale buyers (other dealers), so the path of least resistance for many dealers is to sell based on greysheet values (for you, a special price) and buy at lower levels. Of course, that means that those retail buyers (collectors), when they go to sell, are offered below greysheet for their coins as the dealer who's buying will obviously expect to make something on the deal. And the retail buyers (collectors) complain that they're being taken advantage of because they can't sell to dealers at greysheet prices.
Where to go from here? I don't know.
@Cougar1978 said:
Any business has to markup its material to stay afloat. I know many on the bourse and online who use the keystone markup on various groups of material (cost plus 100pct). 10c on the dollar does not cut it in the coin business. CPG is a very fair price for collectors to pay. Heck I have seen bay auctions where not even that will win it.
As always, it boils down to "need" and "want"
Out of the dealers I regularly do business with, four out of six do not have a presence on the world wide web and are on their way to shutting their B&M shop soon due to retirement being on the horizon. They have been charging very nominal premiums on coins as well as other accessories (I got all my Dansco albums ranging from 20 to 29 USD) and would miss them terribly when they are not going to be around anymore.
I would be in the minority trying to make the case for lower percentage premiums because sometime ago, was having a back and forth regarding the jump in buyers premium charged by auction houses with your's truly contesting that if a flat 15% was to be levied, it would be in the best interest of all concerned.
In addition to the seller's commission, auction houses charge buyers a commission, usually called a "buyer's premium" or "buyer's fee", which ranges from 10% to 15% of the hammer price depending upon the auction house and the type of item being sold.
The article from March 26th of 2012 states that the new buyer’s fee will be set at 17.5 percent of the hammer price. https://coin week.com/auctions-news/understanding-buyers-fees-coin-auction-premiums-are-increasing/
The typical buyer's premium charged across the nation now ranges from 12.5 to 25%. The higher premiums of 25% are applied to less expensive purchases, while the 12-15% premiums are applied to bids above a million dollars or more.
This hobby is sort of headed the way of the dinosaur similar to philately. Aside from the older generation upto the Gen. X, very few youngsters have come into it in comparison. The mint tried to infuse enthusiasm with their offerings and the State quarters along with ATB piqued the curiosity in many. A resurgance of sorts also happened because of the pandemic since people had time on their hands due to lockdown and many out of boredome or seeking ways to make money came in to the game.
With technology jumping leaps and bounds in the last decade, information is available at the fingertips for the youngsters and the older folks are just slowly catching up to it. This means no more trying to squeeze the end user for all that is worth and is a strong indication that something's gotta give. Unless the price range is high up there with many zeros, margins would be very lesser, but volume can definitely make up for difference.
Standardizing to the levels where it is acceptable to all would help oodles.
Just my two cents as always.
Comments
Character slander accusations probably need some ambulance chasing attorney to pursue.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
I really hate to see this thread go negative. There have been a lot of good points made and my takeaway is that, here at CDN/Greysheet, we could do a better job explaining our pricing and the context of which prices should be used and by whom. The PCGS pricing team does an excellent job with pricing as well, which I feel is strongly worth mentioning.
In that context I will reach out to my friends at PCGS and see if there's an appetite to do a joint webinar on pricing in general. Would that be interesting?
Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com)
PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
You could try, but as long as collectors (retail buyers) think they should be able to buy/sell at wholesale prices, you're not going to have a lot of success.
JMO, of course.
I would love to address that topic.
Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com)
PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
That would be an interesting discussion. The way things seem to go right now is based on the fact that everybody knows (or can easily enough find) what greysheet values are. Retail buyers (collectors) don't see any reason they should pay more than wholesale buyers (other dealers), so the path of least resistance for many dealers is to sell based on greysheet values (for you, a special price) and buy at lower levels. Of course, that means that those retail buyers (collectors), when they go to sell, are offered below greysheet for their coins as the dealer who's buying will obviously expect to make something on the deal. And the retail buyers (collectors) complain that they're being taken advantage of because they can't sell to dealers at greysheet prices.
Where to go from here? I don't know.
This thread has been very entertaining, thanks to all who contributed. I would mention that I use to subscribe to grey sheet years ago when i was actively collecting. I recently got active again in the hobby and bought a single digital issue that really helped me price some coins that i was selling at the Long Beach Show. With that being said, i do beleive in supporting the hobby and entrepreneurs that make this hobby better and plan on subscribing again to Greysheet.
Thanks for your work product John.
I would definitely be interested in such a discussion. I think it is very complex, especially with ebay, traditional auction houses, coin shows, retail coin stores, private commercial websites and instagram/Facebook venues.
And don't forget the complication of sales tax that the retail buyers want deducted from the coin price and the abhorrent auction fees. Collectors feel coins are a commodity that should trade without transaction costs rather than a retail purchase.
Fees? We don't want to pay no stinkin' fees!
John
I don't think it has really turned negative. Of course, there have been some negative things said, but that is almost inevitable here. Overall, the thread has been very informative. I used to have a subscription to the Greysheet when I was buying and selling a lot more, but I gave it up. I believe I am going to pick it up again. The changes that have been made are largely positive and the pricing is responsive to the market. Also, I was at my favorite coin ship pricing coins for the owner and I noticed that your on-line version of the Greysheet has a bunch of information and pricing that is not available in print. That is very helpful. Of course, some prices are off, and some prices lag, but it remains for me the best regularly available print and digital method for pricing coins on the buy and sell side for the broadest available range of coins. I was particularly impressed to hear how it is accepted in expert testimony. So, keep up the good work! It looks like you may have picked up a few subscriptions from this thread alone.
Tom
‘I was particularly impressed to hear how it is accepted in expert testimony.”
The key to being an expert (on any subject) is to know more than anyone else on the subject matter at hand. As for coins, the sheet is very important, as was probably my research of 3 years (day by day) on the buy and sells of the pertinent coins on the CCE dealer network (real trades from 800 dealers), eBay, etc., etc. You can never have too much information. It’s just about what conclusions the expert reaches after analyzing everything.
Wondercoin
Any business has to markup its material to stay afloat. I know many on the bourse and online who use the keystone markup on various groups of material (cost plus 100pct). 10c on the dollar does not cut it in the coin business. CPG is a very fair price for collectors to pay. Heck I have seen bay auctions where not even that will win it.
As always, it boils down to "need" and "want"
Out of the dealers I regularly do business with, four out of six do not have a presence on the world wide web and are on their way to shutting their B&M shop soon due to retirement being on the horizon. They have been charging very nominal premiums on coins as well as other accessories (I got all my Dansco albums ranging from 20 to 29 USD) and would miss them terribly when they are not going to be around anymore.
I would be in the minority trying to make the case for lower percentage premiums because sometime ago, was having a back and forth regarding the jump in buyers premium charged by auction houses with your's truly contesting that if a flat 15% was to be levied, it would be in the best interest of all concerned.
Following has been taken from a Jul 10, 1998 article of our hosts https://www.pcgs.com/news/selling-at-public-auction-part-ii
The article from March 26th of 2012 states that the new buyer’s fee will be set at 17.5 percent of the hammer price.
https://coin week.com/auctions-news/understanding-buyers-fees-coin-auction-premiums-are-increasing/
Fast forward to the Oct 4, 2018 article https://witherells.com/about-the-buyers-premium-the-definition-history-and-reality-of-an-auction-house-phenomenon/ tries to explain the thought process behind it, generalized with art, coin or whatever the auction is about.
This hobby is sort of headed the way of the dinosaur similar to philately. Aside from the older generation upto the Gen. X, very few youngsters have come into it in comparison. The mint tried to infuse enthusiasm with their offerings and the State quarters along with ATB piqued the curiosity in many. A resurgance of sorts also happened because of the pandemic since people had time on their hands due to lockdown and many out of boredome or seeking ways to make money came in to the game.
With technology jumping leaps and bounds in the last decade, information is available at the fingertips for the youngsters and the older folks are just slowly catching up to it. This means no more trying to squeeze the end user for all that is worth and is a strong indication that something's gotta give. Unless the price range is high up there with many zeros, margins would be very lesser, but volume can definitely make up for difference.
Standardizing to the levels where it is acceptable to all would help oodles.
Just my two cents as always.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091