@jmlanzaf said:
Guide numbers are arrived at from a variety of sources.
And some of them are just made up. I don't actively collect US coins so I don't know how things are in that area but with world coins, it's not at all unusual for price guides to include values for coins that are not known to exist.
They aren't usually "made up" but they are often inferred from other coins in the absence of recent sales results or actual exchange bids. Even exchange bids are only one piece of data. If, for example, I have the only bid and it is well below market, they aren't going to print my bid as the guide number.
🤔 It’s very simple for me …….
They found the niche and capitalized on the concept. Brilliant!
Not quite a Market Maker but to some extent influences it.
Started as a Myth collectors catching up to and making it real.
Imagine having this 🌺 sticker as seal of approval…….next to some CACs for even better eye!?!?
@jmlanzaf said:
There is likely no posted bid for a coin with pop 0.
Surely there is - someone who wants such a coin would post a bid waiting for one to turn up. Just a matter of time if some are extant in that grade. There is no charge for posting a bid, I'd do the same if I were on that exchange and wanted a particular coin in CAC and grade on the very rare side of things. Let's say there were 5 in that grade from the TPG's, surely one will come up with CAC at some point, hence the bid as Darrell pointed out.
Best, SH
Have you ever been on that exchange? If not, perhaps you should research first. There are plenty of rare coins that aren't pop 0 that have no bids much less pop 0 coins.
Scroll through the greysheet and PCGS PG, there are coins that don't exist now with posted bids or values.
Those are NOT NECESSARILY actual open bids. Guide numbers are arrived at from a variety of sources. They are not all open exchange bids.
I've been on the exchange. Not every actual existing coin had a bid much less aspirational coins.
Spend the $150 and join for a month. You might actually learn something.
I have to LOL here. I have been on exchanges in the past and can gain access now through friends. While I haven’t checked recently. There used to be quite a few bids for coins that didn’t exist (yet) in some grades.
Just what do you think I’m going to learn? 25+ years as a full time dealer. I must be doing something right. I have a million dollar + inventory not to mention my collection. How much do you have?
I must say it’s entertaining to me to jockey about with someone who specializes in the cheap end of the market.
@Paradisefound said:
🤔 It’s very simple for me …….
They found the niche and capitalized on the concept. Brilliant!
Not quite a Market Maker but to some extent influences it.
According to @MFeld, they buy and sell millions of dollars worth of coins every month. How much more do you imagine they'd need to buy and sell in order to be a market maker?
@Paradisefound said:
🤔 It’s very simple for me …….
They found the niche and capitalized on the concept. Brilliant!
Not quite a Market Maker but to some extent influences it.
According to @MFeld, they buy and sell millions of dollars worth of coins every month. How much more do you imagine they'd need to buy and sell in order to be a market maker?
@Paradisefound said:
🤔 It’s very simple for me …….
They found the niche and capitalized on the concept. Brilliant!
Not quite a Market Maker but to some extent influences it.
According to @MFeld, they buy and sell millions of dollars worth of coins every month. How much more do you imagine they'd need to buy and sell in order to be a market maker?
@Paradisefound said:
🤔 It’s very simple for me …….
They found the niche and capitalized on the concept. Brilliant!
Not quite a Market Maker but to some extent influences it.
According to @MFeld, they buy and sell millions of dollars worth of coins every month. How much more do you imagine they'd need to buy and sell in order to be a market maker?
They need to have an open buy offer for all CAC coins.
When I read threads like this one I'm happy that I buy the actual coin- based on the merits of the actual coin- and don't buy based on whose holder it's in or whose sticker it does or doesn't bear.
CAC has evolved over the years into what it is today. A service provided in the hopes of allowing collectors to perceive the idea that their coins are more valuable with the sticker than without. And this has been proven many times over when selling.
I'm sure old timers here remember pre CAC when Laura was talking about the greatest new thing coming to battle back against coin doctors. Well coin doctor threads are far and few between now and cac threads have taken their place.
At some point in the future there will be another latest and greatest.
Enjoy what you collect, and if you prefer being googly eyed over the bean versus the beaned then enjoy that too.
@jmlanzaf said:
There is likely no posted bid for a coin with pop 0.
Surely there is - someone who wants such a coin would post a bid waiting for one to turn up. Just a matter of time if some are extant in that grade. There is no charge for posting a bid, I'd do the same if I were on that exchange and wanted a particular coin in CAC and grade on the very rare side of things. Let's say there were 5 in that grade from the TPG's, surely one will come up with CAC at some point, hence the bid as Darrell pointed out.
Best, SH
Have you ever been on that exchange? If not, perhaps you should research first. There are plenty of rare coins that aren't pop 0 that have no bids much less pop 0 coins.
Scroll through the greysheet and PCGS PG, there are coins that don't exist now with posted bids or values.
Those are NOT NECESSARILY actual open bids. Guide numbers are arrived at from a variety of sources. They are not all open exchange bids.
I've been on the exchange. Not every actual existing coin had a bid much less aspirational coins.
Spend the $150 and join for a month. You might actually learn something.
I have to LOL here. I have been on exchanges in the past and can gain access now through friends. While I haven’t checked recently. There used to be quite a few bids for coins that didn’t exist (yet) in some grades.
Just what do you think I’m going to learn? 25+ years as a full time dealer. I must be doing something right. I have a million dollar + inventory not to mention my collection. How much do you have?
I must say it’s entertaining to me to jockey about with someone who specializes in the cheap end of the market.
@jmlanzaf said:
There is likely no posted bid for a coin with pop 0.
Surely there is - someone who wants such a coin would post a bid waiting for one to turn up. Just a matter of time if some are extant in that grade. There is no charge for posting a bid, I'd do the same if I were on that exchange and wanted a particular coin in CAC and grade on the very rare side of things. Let's say there were 5 in that grade from the TPG's, surely one will come up with CAC at some point, hence the bid as Darrell pointed out.
Best, SH
Have you ever been on that exchange? If not, perhaps you should research first. There are plenty of rare coins that aren't pop 0 that have no bids much less pop 0 coins.
Scroll through the greysheet and PCGS PG, there are coins that don't exist now with posted bids or values.
Those are NOT NECESSARILY actual open bids. Guide numbers are arrived at from a variety of sources. They are not all open exchange bids.
I've been on the exchange. Not every actual existing coin had a bid much less aspirational coins.
Spend the $150 and join for a month. You might actually learn something.
I have to LOL here. I have been on exchanges in the past and can gain access now through friends. While I haven’t checked recently. There used to be quite a few bids for coins that didn’t exist (yet) in some grades.
Just what do you think I’m going to learn? 25+ years as a full time dealer. I must be doing something right. I have a million dollar + inventory not to mention my collection. How much do you have?
I must say it’s entertaining to me to jockey about with someone who specializes in the cheap end of the market.
@jmlanzaf said:
There is likely no posted bid for a coin with pop 0.
Surely there is - someone who wants such a coin would post a bid waiting for one to turn up. Just a matter of time if some are extant in that grade. There is no charge for posting a bid, I'd do the same if I were on that exchange and wanted a particular coin in CAC and grade on the very rare side of things. Let's say there were 5 in that grade from the TPG's, surely one will come up with CAC at some point, hence the bid as Darrell pointed out.
Best, SH
Have you ever been on that exchange? If not, perhaps you should research first. There are plenty of rare coins that aren't pop 0 that have no bids much less pop 0 coins.
Scroll through the greysheet and PCGS PG, there are coins that don't exist now with posted bids or values.
Those are NOT NECESSARILY actual open bids. Guide numbers are arrived at from a variety of sources. They are not all open exchange bids.
I've been on the exchange. Not every actual existing coin had a bid much less aspirational coins.
Spend the $150 and join for a month. You might actually learn something.
I have to LOL here. I have been on exchanges in the past and can gain access now through friends. While I haven’t checked recently. There used to be quite a few bids for coins that didn’t exist (yet) in some grades.
Just what do you think I’m going to learn? 25+ years as a full time dealer. I must be doing something right. I have a million dollar + inventory not to mention my collection. How much do you have?
I must say it’s entertaining to me to jockey about with someone who specializes in the cheap end of the market.
And yet you have so much to learn...
Perhaps maybe you do as well????
I definitely do. But I don't make up stories to fill in my gaps.
We've already established that you were completely wrong about CAC bid activity.
Sort of curious. Considering a large investment in CAC material spruce up my table at shows.
A generic 1924 MS 65 Generic $20 Saint is reflected in CPG retail at $2690 non CAC, $3500 CAC. Who pays around the CAC retail money $3500 about an $800 premium on something like that? Anybody in here? Just curious. Even if I just got it at CAC bid I still would need find a buyer (my table at shows) who would pay around that. Its really great the CAC price is in CDN CPG I just wonder considering buyers may shop around for a non CAC piece they find just as nice…..
This generic issue has a Pcgs pop in 65 of around 53k. Don’t have the NGC pop number at this time.
Any bourse room dealers in here getting that ($3500). I guess if you bought a lot of non CAC at bid then got some stickered…..lots of room. Certainly an interesting playbook. Success?
@jmlanzaf said:
There is likely no posted bid for a coin with pop 0.
Surely there is - someone who wants such a coin would post a bid waiting for one to turn up. Just a matter of time if some are extant in that grade. There is no charge for posting a bid, I'd do the same if I were on that exchange and wanted a particular coin in CAC and grade on the very rare side of things. Let's say there were 5 in that grade from the TPG's, surely one will come up with CAC at some point, hence the bid as Darrell pointed out.
Best, SH
Have you ever been on that exchange? If not, perhaps you should research first. There are plenty of rare coins that aren't pop 0 that have no bids much less pop 0 coins.
Scroll through the greysheet and PCGS PG, there are coins that don't exist now with posted bids or values.
Those are NOT NECESSARILY actual open bids. Guide numbers are arrived at from a variety of sources. They are not all open exchange bids.
I've been on the exchange. Not every actual existing coin had a bid much less aspirational coins.
Spend the $150 and join for a month. You might actually learn something.
I have to LOL here. I have been on exchanges in the past and can gain access now through friends. While I haven’t checked recently. There used to be quite a few bids for coins that didn’t exist (yet) in some grades.
Just what do you think I’m going to learn? 25+ years as a full time dealer. I must be doing something right. I have a million dollar + inventory not to mention my collection. How much do you have?
I must say it’s entertaining to me to jockey about with someone who specializes in the cheap end of the market.
And yet you have so much to learn...
Perhaps maybe you do as well????
I definitely do. But I don't make up stories to fill in my gaps.
We've already established that you were completely wrong about CAC bid activity.
You have? Bids can be placed, but as I'm sure your well aware they aren't always honored. Not so long ago I walked up to a dealer who had a strong bid on VF graded Barber halves. Oh, were aren't buying any right now. His MO was hoping someone would offer some of the better dates for his bid.
@Paradisefound said:
🤔 It’s very simple for me …….
They found the niche and capitalized on the concept. Brilliant!
Not quite a Market Maker but to some extent influences it.
Started as a Myth collectors catching up to and making it real.
Imagine having this 🌺 sticker as seal of approval…….next to some CACs for even better eye!?!?
You need to take a more Zen like approach. There are things you do not know or understand yet. With effort and perseverance, you will. Grasshopper.
@amwldcoin said: @MFeld@jmlanzaf
So you guys are monitoring who is placing bids on CDN? I would wager the majority of the are bids than not from CAC. There is little evidence here to support what you say. What little has been posted about selling to CAC here is there offers weren't enough.
The one thing that sticks in my Craw was related to me by a very good dealer friend whom I would trust with my wife and my life. There was a better date Seated Dollar that had a CAC POP of 0. The CDN bid was 50-60K for a CAC in the grade. A very good friend of his made one at CAC and the bid dropped into the 30's overnight.
I'm sorry, but I just don't like all this crap!
Folks, learn coins yourself and get rid of the crutch. Let's not go back to the times when the government destroyed the coin market!
Let's not go back to the times where all Barbers were dipped.
I was willing to pay a strong premium over the CPG retail $1,380 premium on a $5,800 coin for this CAC coin. I will only buy CAC coins. I have been burned in the past on inferior coins and feel that in the long run the CAC sticker well not perfect will help my Heirs recover most of the money I invested. I would not be a buyer of a 1924 Common date $20 CAC in the current market. I have pulled back on my buying because the market has jumped to high, not because of the CAC premium. For a couple of the dealers on here all that matters is that they can buy 20% under Grey sheet and that they can make there 30% profit. I prefer to deal with dealers that pursue quality coins and try to built superior collections. I am willing to pay a slight premium for that service. I understand that there is a need for both type of dealers as collectors fall into many different groups with different goals. **How people especially dealers can deny the strong desire for CAC coins in this market is beyond me. **
@willy said:
I was willing to pay a strong premium over the CPG retail $1,380 premium on a $5,800 coin for this CAC coin. I will only buy CAC coins. I have been burned in the past on inferior coins and feel that in the long run the CAC sticker well not perfect will help my Heirs recover most of the money I invested. I would not be a buyer of a 1924 Common date $20 CAC in the current market. I have pulled back on my buying because the market has jumped to high, not because of the CAC premium. For a couple of the dealers on here all that matters is that they can buy 20% under Grey sheet and that they can make there 30% profit. I prefer to deal with dealers that pursue quality coins and try to built superior collections. I am willing to pay a slight premium for that service. I understand that there is a need for both type of dealers as collectors fall into many different groups with different goals. **How people especially dealers can deny the strong desire for CAC coins in this market is beyond me. **
At last local show setup, 40 dealers saw only 4 CAC coins all $20 Gold in this one dealers case. I sold more currency than coins at the show. Even a large wholesaler who provides me slabbed material had zero CAC.
How many CAC dealers / coins do you see at your big Cali shows?
I collect foreign coins. CAC does not do these.
Explain to me why a CAC so called solidly graded green Bean is so valuable?
Isn't it just a fourth grader of the slab. The TPG's have said they use three " World Class graders" graders on a coin.
to get a better percentage of accuracy which I believe they have claimed is in the 90 percentile. correct me here.
adding a fourth grader CAC maybe increases that a bit.
Are failed to get green bean coins over graded? Thats a lot of overgraded or mistake coins which I paid a lot to get graded
assuming a high accuracy.
Can anyone explain to me this CAC philosophy as they or you see it?
@krueger said:
Are failed to get green bean coins over graded? Thats a lot of overgraded or mistake coins which I paid a lot to get graded
assuming a high accuracy.
Can anyone explain to me this CAC philosophy as they or you see it?
CAC has a website and they address your question there.
@krueger said:
I collect foreign coins. CAC does not do these.
Explain to me why a CAC so called solidly graded green Bean is so valuable?
Isn't it just a fourth grader of the slab. The TPG's have said they use three " World Class graders" graders on a coin.
to get a better percentage of accuracy which I believe they have claimed is in the 90 percentile. correct me here.
adding a fourth grader CAC maybe increases that a bit.
Are failed to get green bean coins over graded? Thats a lot of overgraded or mistake coins which I paid a lot to get graded
assuming a high accuracy.
Can anyone explain to me this CAC philosophy as they or you see it?
These are the reasons CAC exist today and why it has become so wildly successful. I don’t do foreign coins and I only know the Liberty Seated Dollar series. 1/4 of them that make it into straight graded holders is imho shameful. 1/2 of them are coins that have some sort of issue that they let slide. And 1/4 of them are decent coins. CAC stickers the best coins. In an age where lots of high value coins are sold online and not in person a CAC sticker helps prevent (not perfect) the purchase of coins with issues.
@krueger said:
Are failed to get green bean coins over graded? Thats a lot of overgraded or mistake coins which I paid a lot to get graded
assuming a high accuracy.
Can anyone explain to me this CAC philosophy as they or you see it?
CAC has a website and they address your question there.
I used to wonder why people who dislike CAC don't just ignore it... then I realized they can't ignore forum trolls either. Apparently, their internal "ignore button" is broken.
@jmlanzaf said:
I used to wonder why people who dislike CAC don't just ignore it...
Many appear to want CAC to go away. That won't happen unless people can be dissuaded from using their services and that won't happen if the detractors stop badmouthing CAC and just ignore it.
I don't know if I trust a CAC sticker. Can they be easily faked or moved from one slab to another? Are there price guides for coins with CAC stickers? Either way, the person who started the CAC company is making a lot of money by doing very little with a stock of stickers. All he does is look at coins and decide if they are worthy of a sticker. I have hundreds of slabs in my bank safe-deposit box and none of them are CAC stickered because I bought all of them before CAC existed.
@rec78 said:
I don't know if I trust a CAC sticker. Can they be easily faked or moved from one slab to another? Are there price guides for coins with CAC stickers? Either way, the person who started the CAC company is making a lot of money by doing very little with a stock of stickers. All he does is look at coins and decide if they are worthy of a sticker. I have hundreds of slabs in my bank safe-deposit box and none of them are CAC stickered because I bought all of them before CAC existed.
You can look the coins up by cert# on the cac website. There is also a cac price guide there.
At last local show setup, 40 dealers saw only 4 CAC coins all $20 Gold in this one dealers case. I sold more currency than coins at the show. Even a large wholesaler who provides me slabbed material had zero CAC.
How many CAC dealers / coins do you see at your big Cali shows?
I think the majority of higher end coins are sold either online or at auctions and gauging the market from coin shows does not accurately depict the market. Of course this is my opinion and I’m basing it on my observations only.
At last local show setup, 40 dealers saw only 4 CAC coins all $20 Gold in this one dealers case. I sold more currency than coins at the show. Even a large wholesaler who provides me slabbed material had zero CAC.
How many CAC dealers / coins do you see at your big Cali shows?
I think the majority of higher end coins are sold either online or at auctions and gauging the market from coin shows does not accurately depict the market. Of course this is my opinion and I’m basing it on my observations only.
A lot of them never see the light of day and trade privately!
@rec78 said:
I don't know if I trust a CAC sticker. Can they be easily faked or moved from one slab to another? Are there price guides for coins with CAC stickers? Either way, the person who started the CAC company is making a lot of money by doing very little with a stock of stickers. All he does is look at coins and decide if they are worthy of a sticker. I have hundreds of slabs in my bank safe-deposit box and none of them are CAC stickered because I bought all of them before CAC existed.
This is so steeped in ignorance and misinformation, it's not worth trying to correct it all.
@rec78 said:
I don't know if I trust a CAC sticker. Can they be easily faked or moved from one slab to another? Are there price guides for coins with CAC stickers? Either way, the person who started the CAC company is making a lot of money by doing very little with a stock of stickers. All he does is look at coins and decide if they are worthy of a sticker. I have hundreds of slabs in my bank safe-deposit box and none of them are CAC stickered because I bought all of them before CAC existed.
This is so steeped in ignorance and misinformation, it's not worth trying to correct it all.
I think the majority of higher end coins are sold either online or at auctions and gauging the market from coin shows does not accurately depict the market. Of course this is my opinion and I’m basing it on my observations only.
A lot of them never see the light of day and trade privately!
This is true. As well, some of what gets sold at auction are coins that dealers consign because their customers have had a chance to buy them and have passed.
@krueger said:
…
Can anyone explain to me this CAC philosophy as they or you see it?
.
Here is how I see it. I actually wrote the following in July 2017.
What CAC has done for me is to make me aware of a selection of coins that have a much higher probability of meeting my standards to make a purchase.
In fact, I very rarely look at coins that are not PCGS and CAC anymore. This does not mean that I think all other coins are "bad". I have limited time to spend on my coin collecting and I have found through experience that there is only a very slim chance of me finding something raw or non-PCGS/CAC that meets my criteria for purchase. Therefore I only look at PCGS/CAC coins to increase the chance of me finding a coin that will meet or exceed my purchase criteria.
And for those that think otherwise, I actually look at the coin to decide if it meets my criteria for purchase. There are many PCGS/CAC coins that I pass on because they don't meet my personal criteria. So instead of looking at thousands of non-PCGS/CAC coins (which I do not have time to do) I only need to look at the much smaller subset of PCGS/CAC coins. And yes, that costs money but it saves me a tremendous amount of time and I am very, very rarely disappointed with my purchase.
Now moving on to 2022. I have been in the process of selling my collection for awhile now. This year I have sold 40 coins at auction with the following results:
I sold 10 PCGS coins (purchased prior to purchasing PCGS/CAC only) for a net of 10% more than my purchase price.
I sold 29 PCGS/CAC coins for a net of 44% more than my purchase price.
I sold 1 additional PCGS/CAC coin that I did not include above because it would skew the results of the PCGS/CAC coins sold. This 1 additional coin sold for 10x my purchase price!
The results above are not unusual for me. Despite at times paying a premium for the PCGS/CAC coins, I still net more money on PCGS/CAC coins than I do on non-CAC coins. And I have had other sales of PCGS/CAC coins that have sold for multiples of my purchase price but not as dramatic as the one above.
@rec78 said:
I don't know if I trust a CAC sticker. Can they be easily faked or moved from one slab to another?
You can look up the cert# on their website.
Are there price guides for coins with CAC stickers? Either way, the person who started the CAC company is making a lot of money by doing very little with a stock of stickers. All he does is look at coins and decide if they are worthy of a sticker. I have hundreds of slabs in my bank safe-deposit box and none of them are CAC stickered because I bought all of them before CAC existed.
You betta send them to CAC to get premiums on the pq ones that bean...........
@rec78 said:
I have hundreds of slabs in my bank safe-deposit box and none of them are CAC stickered because I bought all of them before CAC existed.
That's probably better than having hundreds of raw coins because you bought them before PCGS existed. It's not really an argument against having coins slabbed, though.
Sounds like the bean is a help in buying sight unseen. --Makes sense.
It seems the bean raises the accuracy bar in any graded slab. -- More contented buyers.
Always good to get a second opinion! Buying If it falls within your standards if your experieced-- that's good
.otherwise your buying a 2nd services opinion. Which seems most people want as insurance against a mistake in their own judgement. Did I buy a nice coin or did I just buy a label? I have seen lots of just label coins in auctions
Eagerly digested by Registry hunters. Done it myself , but always a little unhappy with it, because the pursuit
Is Registry / label based not on the coin.
Does CAC have a written methodology as to how they determine awarding a bean analogues to some grading services who publish their standards? Or are we relying again on a world class grader?/screener.
So I guess CAC is sort of an insurance policy against the TPG' grade being low end or a mistake.
All TPG' make mistakes.
It's great to hear how others view things.
@rec78 said:
I don't know if I trust a CAC sticker. Can they be easily faked or moved from one slab to another?
It appears the CAC sticker is designed to self destruct if one removes it. I had a CAC coin whereby a dealer's notation sticker tape covered part of the CAC sticker. When I removed the tape, the green layer of the CAC sticker went with the tape. The underlying silver layer remained on the slab.
So I guess CAC is sort of an insurance policy against the TPG' grade being low end or a mistake.
All TPG' make mistakes.
It's great to hear how others view things.
If you know for sure all grading services make mistakes with 3 reviewers minimum then surely cac will make mistakes with apparently only one reviewer determining if the coin gets a sticker.
We've heard from many here over time how they have submitted a coin that did not initially bean only to have it get stickered after resubmitting again.
So I guess CAC is sort of an insurance policy against the TPG' grade being low end or a mistake.
All TPG' make mistakes.
It's great to hear how others view things.
If you know for sure all grading services make mistakes with 3 reviewers minimum then surely cac will make mistakes with apparently only one reviewer determining if the coin gets a sticker.
We've heard from many here over time how they have submitted a coin that did not initially bean only to have it get stickered after resubmitting again.
IMHO… Your right that everyone makes "mistakes”. But I’m not convinced that the grading companies are making mistakes on 7 out of 10 SLDs they grade. Its more likely a conscious decision they have made to allow ”net grading" and become very liberal with what they consider "market acceptable".
Are you implying that CAC has the same amount of ”mistakes" as the top two grading services? If so that is absolutely ridiculous! Grab 10 random CAC approved SLDs (If you can find them) and line them up on your kitchen table. Then take 10 random non cac SLDs and line them up below the CAC coins. Once you compare them all it should be obvious who made ”mistakes”.
Yes, CAC has rejected a coin and then stickered it upon resubmission later. Nobody is perfect. But do the experiment above on your kitchen table and there should be no debate as to why CAC coins are in such high demand and why there will continue to be strong demand for the foreseeable future.
So I guess CAC is sort of an insurance policy against the TPG' grade being low end or a mistake.
All TPG' make mistakes.
It's great to hear how others view things.
If you know for sure all grading services make mistakes with 3 reviewers minimum then surely cac will make mistakes with apparently only one reviewer determining if the coin gets a sticker.
We've heard from many here over time how they have submitted a coin that did not initially bean only to have it get stickered after resubmitting again.
Again, STUDY. Don't just make stuff up.
CAC has 3 reviewers and one finalizer...EXACTLY LIKE PCGS and NGC
You must have missed the stories about the PCGS coins that changed grades when resubmitted.
HAS ANYONE BROKEN OUT A CAC COIN, RESUBMITTED IT AND HAD THE GRADE DROP? I've never had of one.
So I guess CAC is sort of an insurance policy against the TPG' grade being low end or a mistake.
All TPG' make mistakes.
It's great to hear how others view things.
If you know for sure all grading services make mistakes with 3 reviewers minimum then surely cac will make mistakes with apparently only one reviewer determining if the coin gets a sticker.
We've heard from many here over time how they have submitted a coin that did not initially bean only to have it get stickered after resubmitting again.
Again, STUDY. Don't just make stuff up.
CAC has 3 reviewers and one finalizer...EXACTLY LIKE PCGS and NGC
You must have missed the stories about the PCGS coins that changed grades when resubmitted.
HAS ANYONE BROKEN OUT A CAC COIN, RESUBMITTED IT AND HAD THE GRADE DROP? I've never had of one.
Again, my comments are based on collectors that say they will blindly purchase a cac coin without looking closely at the coin itself.
Take a look at this thread and let's hear your thoughts on how this coin was straight graded, cac approved, auctioned by a high end dealer/auction service and the issues were never noticed? I can only presume that coin was taken off the market.
I'm also not saying cac does not have added value, but what I am saying is the end buyer should know about the product they are getting.
So how about, has anyone had a cac coin pulled and cracked and bought back because it's a "problem coin" https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1073319/im-curious-if-this-monster-toned-peace-dollar-was-bought-back-by-our-host
So I guess CAC is sort of an insurance policy against the TPG' grade being low end or a mistake.
All TPG' make mistakes.
It's great to hear how others view things.
If you know for sure all grading services make mistakes with 3 reviewers minimum then surely cac will make mistakes with apparently only one reviewer determining if the coin gets a sticker.
We've heard from many here over time how they have submitted a coin that did not initially bean only to have it get stickered after resubmitting again.
Again, STUDY. Don't just make stuff up.
CAC has 3 reviewers and one finalizer...EXACTLY LIKE PCGS and NGC
You must have missed the stories about the PCGS coins that changed grades when resubmitted.
HAS ANYONE BROKEN OUT A CAC COIN, RESUBMITTED IT AND HAD THE GRADE DROP? I've never had of one.
Again, my comments are based on collectors that say they will blindly purchase a cac coin without looking closely at the coin itself.
Take a look at this thread and let's hear your thoughts on how this coin was straight graded, cac approved, auctioned by a high end dealer/auction service and the issues were never noticed? I can only presume that coin was taken off the market.
I'm also not saying cac does not have added value, but what I am saying is the end buyer should know about the product they are getting.
So how about, has anyone had a cac coin pulled and cracked and bought back because it's a "problem coin" https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1073319/im-curious-if-this-monster-toned-peace-dollar-was-bought-back-by-our-host
Comments
They aren't usually "made up" but they are often inferred from other coins in the absence of recent sales results or actual exchange bids. Even exchange bids are only one piece of data. If, for example, I have the only bid and it is well below market, they aren't going to print my bid as the guide number.
[You'd think a dealer would know this...]
That's what I meant by "made up".
🤔 It’s very simple for me …….
They found the niche and capitalized on the concept. Brilliant!
Not quite a Market Maker but to some extent influences it.
Started as a Myth collectors catching up to and making it real.
Imagine having this 🌺 sticker as seal of approval…….next to some CACs for even better eye!?!?
I have to LOL here. I have been on exchanges in the past and can gain access now through friends. While I haven’t checked recently. There used to be quite a few bids for coins that didn’t exist (yet) in some grades.
Just what do you think I’m going to learn? 25+ years as a full time dealer. I must be doing something right. I have a million dollar + inventory not to mention my collection. How much do you have?
I must say it’s entertaining to me to jockey about with someone who specializes in the cheap end of the market.
According to @MFeld, they buy and sell millions of dollars worth of coins every month. How much more do you imagine they'd need to buy and sell in order to be a market maker?
IMHO PCGS is the Market Maker
How's that work? PCGS doesn't buy or sell coins.
They need to have an open buy offer for all CAC coins.
When I read threads like this one I'm happy that I buy the actual coin- based on the merits of the actual coin- and don't buy based on whose holder it's in or whose sticker it does or doesn't bear.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
CAC is a threadmaker.
@amwldcoin said:
Unlike some other keyboard warriors here I do not make up stories!
Didn't you say one time you were going to leave for good and weren't going to post here anymore?
CAC has evolved over the years into what it is today. A service provided in the hopes of allowing collectors to perceive the idea that their coins are more valuable with the sticker than without. And this has been proven many times over when selling.
I'm sure old timers here remember pre CAC when Laura was talking about the greatest new thing coming to battle back against coin doctors. Well coin doctor threads are far and few between now and cac threads have taken their place.
At some point in the future there will be another latest and greatest.
Enjoy what you collect, and if you prefer being googly eyed over the bean versus the beaned then enjoy that too.
I did take a pretty long vacation!
And yet you have so much to learn...
Perhaps maybe you do as well????
I definitely do. But I don't make up stories to fill in my gaps.
We've already established that you were completely wrong about CAC bid activity.
Sort of curious. Considering a large investment in CAC material spruce up my table at shows.
A generic 1924 MS 65 Generic $20 Saint is reflected in CPG retail at $2690 non CAC, $3500 CAC. Who pays around the CAC retail money $3500 about an $800 premium on something like that? Anybody in here? Just curious. Even if I just got it at CAC bid I still would need find a buyer (my table at shows) who would pay around that. Its really great the CAC price is in CDN CPG I just wonder considering buyers may shop around for a non CAC piece they find just as nice…..
This generic issue has a Pcgs pop in 65 of around 53k. Don’t have the NGC pop number at this time.
Any bourse room dealers in here getting that ($3500). I guess if you bought a lot of non CAC at bid then got some stickered…..lots of room. Certainly an interesting playbook. Success?
You have? Bids can be placed, but as I'm sure your well aware they aren't always honored. Not so long ago I walked up to a dealer who had a strong bid on VF graded Barber halves. Oh, were aren't buying any right now. His MO was hoping someone would offer some of the better dates for his bid.
You need to take a more Zen like approach. There are things you do not know or understand yet. With effort and perseverance, you will. Grasshopper.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
Let's not go back to the times where all Barbers were dipped.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
I was willing to pay a strong premium over the CPG retail $1,380 premium on a $5,800 coin for this CAC coin. I will only buy CAC coins. I have been burned in the past on inferior coins and feel that in the long run the CAC sticker well not perfect will help my Heirs recover most of the money I invested. I would not be a buyer of a 1924 Common date $20 CAC in the current market. I have pulled back on my buying because the market has jumped to high, not because of the CAC premium. For a couple of the dealers on here all that matters is that they can buy 20% under Grey sheet and that they can make there 30% profit. I prefer to deal with dealers that pursue quality coins and try to built superior collections. I am willing to pay a slight premium for that service. I understand that there is a need for both type of dealers as collectors fall into many different groups with different goals. **How people especially dealers can deny the strong desire for CAC coins in this market is beyond me. **
I don't think they're denying it as much as trying to discourage it.
That is a helluva nice coin.
Interesting
At last local show setup, 40 dealers saw only 4 CAC coins all $20 Gold in this one dealers case. I sold more currency than coins at the show. Even a large wholesaler who provides me slabbed material had zero CAC.
How many CAC dealers / coins do you see at your big Cali shows?
I collect foreign coins. CAC does not do these.
Explain to me why a CAC so called solidly graded green Bean is so valuable?
Isn't it just a fourth grader of the slab. The TPG's have said they use three " World Class graders" graders on a coin.
to get a better percentage of accuracy which I believe they have claimed is in the 90 percentile. correct me here.
adding a fourth grader CAC maybe increases that a bit.
Are failed to get green bean coins over graded? Thats a lot of overgraded or mistake coins which I paid a lot to get graded
assuming a high accuracy.
Can anyone explain to me this CAC philosophy as they or you see it?
CAC has a website and they address your question there.
"Market acceptable grading" + "gradeflation" +"doctored coins"
These are the reasons CAC exist today and why it has become so wildly successful. I don’t do foreign coins and I only know the Liberty Seated Dollar series. 1/4 of them that make it into straight graded holders is imho shameful. 1/2 of them are coins that have some sort of issue that they let slide. And 1/4 of them are decent coins. CAC stickers the best coins. In an age where lots of high value coins are sold online and not in person a CAC sticker helps prevent (not perfect) the purchase of coins with issues.
Along with 1372 threads on this forum... lol
I used to wonder why people who dislike CAC don't just ignore it... then I realized they can't ignore forum trolls either. Apparently, their internal "ignore button" is broken.
Many appear to want CAC to go away. That won't happen unless people can be dissuaded from using their services and that won't happen if the detractors stop badmouthing CAC and just ignore it.
I don't know if I trust a CAC sticker. Can they be easily faked or moved from one slab to another? Are there price guides for coins with CAC stickers? Either way, the person who started the CAC company is making a lot of money by doing very little with a stock of stickers. All he does is look at coins and decide if they are worthy of a sticker. I have hundreds of slabs in my bank safe-deposit box and none of them are CAC stickered because I bought all of them before CAC existed.
You can look the coins up by cert# on the cac website. There is also a cac price guide there.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
I think the majority of higher end coins are sold either online or at auctions and gauging the market from coin shows does not accurately depict the market. Of course this is my opinion and I’m basing it on my observations only.
A lot of them never see the light of day and trade privately!
This is so steeped in ignorance and misinformation, it's not worth trying to correct it all.
I read it as trolling.
This is true. As well, some of what gets sold at auction are coins that dealers consign because their customers have had a chance to buy them and have passed.
.
Here is how I see it. I actually wrote the following in July 2017.
What CAC has done for me is to make me aware of a selection of coins that have a much higher probability of meeting my standards to make a purchase.
In fact, I very rarely look at coins that are not PCGS and CAC anymore. This does not mean that I think all other coins are "bad". I have limited time to spend on my coin collecting and I have found through experience that there is only a very slim chance of me finding something raw or non-PCGS/CAC that meets my criteria for purchase. Therefore I only look at PCGS/CAC coins to increase the chance of me finding a coin that will meet or exceed my purchase criteria.
And for those that think otherwise, I actually look at the coin to decide if it meets my criteria for purchase. There are many PCGS/CAC coins that I pass on because they don't meet my personal criteria. So instead of looking at thousands of non-PCGS/CAC coins (which I do not have time to do) I only need to look at the much smaller subset of PCGS/CAC coins. And yes, that costs money but it saves me a tremendous amount of time and I am very, very rarely disappointed with my purchase.
Now moving on to 2022. I have been in the process of selling my collection for awhile now. This year I have sold 40 coins at auction with the following results:
I sold 10 PCGS coins (purchased prior to purchasing PCGS/CAC only) for a net of 10% more than my purchase price.
I sold 29 PCGS/CAC coins for a net of 44% more than my purchase price.
I sold 1 additional PCGS/CAC coin that I did not include above because it would skew the results of the PCGS/CAC coins sold. This 1 additional coin sold for 10x my purchase price!
The results above are not unusual for me. Despite at times paying a premium for the PCGS/CAC coins, I still net more money on PCGS/CAC coins than I do on non-CAC coins. And I have had other sales of PCGS/CAC coins that have sold for multiples of my purchase price but not as dramatic as the one above.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Joe.
You can look up the cert# on their website.
You betta send them to CAC to get premiums on the pq ones that bean...........
builds character....................
Good move, but make sure you buy the right CAC coins.........................
That's probably better than having hundreds of raw coins because you bought them before PCGS existed. It's not really an argument against having coins slabbed, though.
Sounds like the bean is a help in buying sight unseen. --Makes sense.
It seems the bean raises the accuracy bar in any graded slab. -- More contented buyers.
Always good to get a second opinion! Buying If it falls within your standards if your experieced-- that's good
.otherwise your buying a 2nd services opinion. Which seems most people want as insurance against a mistake in their own judgement. Did I buy a nice coin or did I just buy a label? I have seen lots of just label coins in auctions
Eagerly digested by Registry hunters. Done it myself , but always a little unhappy with it, because the pursuit
Is Registry / label based not on the coin.
Does CAC have a written methodology as to how they determine awarding a bean analogues to some grading services who publish their standards? Or are we relying again on a world class grader?/screener.
So I guess CAC is sort of an insurance policy against the TPG' grade being low end or a mistake.
All TPG' make mistakes.
It's great to hear how others view things.
It appears the CAC sticker is designed to self destruct if one removes it. I had a CAC coin whereby a dealer's notation sticker tape covered part of the CAC sticker. When I removed the tape, the green layer of the CAC sticker went with the tape. The underlying silver layer remained on the slab.
If you know for sure all grading services make mistakes with 3 reviewers minimum then surely cac will make mistakes with apparently only one reviewer determining if the coin gets a sticker.
We've heard from many here over time how they have submitted a coin that did not initially bean only to have it get stickered after resubmitting again.
IMHO… Your right that everyone makes "mistakes”. But I’m not convinced that the grading companies are making mistakes on 7 out of 10 SLDs they grade. Its more likely a conscious decision they have made to allow ”net grading" and become very liberal with what they consider "market acceptable".
Are you implying that CAC has the same amount of ”mistakes" as the top two grading services? If so that is absolutely ridiculous! Grab 10 random CAC approved SLDs (If you can find them) and line them up on your kitchen table. Then take 10 random non cac SLDs and line them up below the CAC coins. Once you compare them all it should be obvious who made ”mistakes”.
Yes, CAC has rejected a coin and then stickered it upon resubmission later. Nobody is perfect. But do the experiment above on your kitchen table and there should be no debate as to why CAC coins are in such high demand and why there will continue to be strong demand for the foreseeable future.
Again, STUDY. Don't just make stuff up.
CAC has 3 reviewers and one finalizer...EXACTLY LIKE PCGS and NGC
You must have missed the stories about the PCGS coins that changed grades when resubmitted.
HAS ANYONE BROKEN OUT A CAC COIN, RESUBMITTED IT AND HAD THE GRADE DROP? I've never had of one.
Again, my comments are based on collectors that say they will blindly purchase a cac coin without looking closely at the coin itself.
Take a look at this thread and let's hear your thoughts on how this coin was straight graded, cac approved, auctioned by a high end dealer/auction service and the issues were never noticed? I can only presume that coin was taken off the market.
I'm also not saying cac does not have added value, but what I am saying is the end buyer should know about the product they are getting.
So how about, has anyone had a cac coin pulled and cracked and bought back because it's a "problem coin"
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1073319/im-curious-if-this-monster-toned-peace-dollar-was-bought-back-by-our-host
Do we know what happened to that coin?