@Weiss said:
I don't consider CAC a "market maker" any more than I consider PCGS or NGC a "market maker".
Why don’t you consider CAC to be a market maker? They make markets in/buy and sell CAC coins. PCGS and NGC don’t.
CAC is the definition of a market maker. Although as we saw in a prior thread, people feel free to redefine the term "market maker".
One of the few things I'm not enthusiastic about is the CAC role as market maker as well as certifier. There is a bit of subjectivity present as well a at least a potential conflict of interest.
They may be a market maker, but I can about guarantee you I would pay quite a bit more for coins than their offer price as a dealer! As a collector for a coin I want! way, way more! I don't understand the security some folks here get from CAC being a market maker. CAC won't buy a coin just because they CAC'd it! Of course everything has a basement price so maybe I should withdraw that!
It is a myth that "smarter" people go to college. A lot of it is socioeconomic and not based on basic intellect. Now, if you amend that to "motivated" or "driven" people go to college in larger numbers, then we might agree.
Basically agree; but, there are always those "C" students demanding an "A" because they need it.
Yes, but I'm not sure that is any kind of disagreement.
Don't you find those unmotivated "C" students the most frustrating?
It is a myth that "smarter" people go to college. A lot of it is socioeconomic and not based on basic intellect. Now, if you amend that to "motivated" or "driven" people go to college in larger numbers, then we might agree.
Basically agree; but, there are always those "C" students demanding an "A" because they need it.
Yes, but I'm not sure that is any kind of disagreement.
Don't you find those unmotivated "C" students the most frustrating?
I do. But they are probably still more motivated than the people who never went to college or a trade school.
@Weiss said:
I don't consider CAC a "market maker" any more than I consider PCGS or NGC a "market maker".
Why don’t you consider CAC to be a market maker? They make markets in/buy and sell CAC coins. PCGS and NGC don’t.
CAC is the definition of a market maker. Although as we saw in a prior thread, people feel free to redefine the term "market maker".
One of the few things I'm not enthusiastic about is the CAC role as market maker as well as certifier. There is a bit of subjectivity present as well a at least a potential conflict of interest.
They may be a market maker, but I can about guarantee you I would pay quite a bit more for coins than their offer price as a dealer! As a collector for a coin I want! way, way more! I don't understand the security some folks here get from CAC being a market maker. CAC won't buy a coin just because they CAC'd it! Of course everything has a basement price so maybe I should withdraw that!
CAC will offer on any CAC coin but JA has been clear that they are not the higher buyer in all market segments. Being a market maker doesn't mean you are the higher buyer of all coins. It means you set the floor not the ceiling.
@Weiss said:
I don't consider CAC a "market maker" any more than I consider PCGS or NGC a "market maker".
Why don’t you consider CAC to be a market maker? They make markets in/buy and sell CAC coins. PCGS and NGC don’t.
CAC is the definition of a market maker. Although as we saw in a prior thread, people feel free to redefine the term "market maker".
One of the few things I'm not enthusiastic about is the CAC role as market maker as well as certifier. There is a bit of subjectivity present as well a at least a potential conflict of interest.
They may be a market maker, but I can about guarantee you I would pay quite a bit more for coins than their offer price as a dealer! As a collector for a coin I want! way, way more! I don't understand the security some folks here get from CAC being a market maker. CAC won't buy a coin just because they CAC'd it! Of course everything has a basement price so maybe I should withdraw that!
CAC will offer on any CAC coin but JA has been clear that they are not the higher buyer in all market segments. Being a market maker doesn't mean you are the higher buyer of all coins. It means you set the floor not the ceiling.
From a dealer standpoint I view it totally the opposite as you. Many people ask me where I get all my nice Barbers. I get a lot of them because I am the higher buyer! Just bought a dozen halves the other day another dealer on the phone.
Please don't offer one of your off the wall comebacks!
@Weiss said:
I don't consider CAC a "market maker" any more than I consider PCGS or NGC a "market maker".
Why don’t you consider CAC to be a market maker? They make markets in/buy and sell CAC coins. PCGS and NGC don’t.
CAC is the definition of a market maker. Although as we saw in a prior thread, people feel free to redefine the term "market maker".
One of the few things I'm not enthusiastic about is the CAC role as market maker as well as certifier. There is a bit of subjectivity present as well a at least a potential conflict of interest.
They may be a market maker, but I can about guarantee you I would pay quite a bit more for coins than their offer price as a dealer! As a collector for a coin I want! way, way more! I don't understand the security some folks here get from CAC being a market maker. CAC won't buy a coin just because they CAC'd it! Of course everything has a basement price so maybe I should withdraw that!
CAC will offer on any CAC coin but JA has been clear that they are not the higher buyer in all market segments. Being a market maker doesn't mean you are the higher buyer of all coins. It means you set the floor not the ceiling.
From a dealer standpoint I view it totally the opposite as you. Many people ask me where I get all my nice Barbers. I get a lot of them because I am the higher buyer! Just bought a dozen halves the other day another dealer on the phone.
Please don't offer one of your off the wall comebacks!
Eff off.
Is that "on the wall"?
The definition of market maker is clear. It's a bit off the wall of you to redefine it.
From OED:
A market maker "a dealer in securities or other assets who undertakes to buy and sell at specified prices at all times".
CAC runs an exchange with posted bid/ask prices. It is by definition a market maker.
@Weiss said:
I don't consider CAC a "market maker" any more than I consider PCGS or NGC a "market maker".
Why don’t you consider CAC to be a market maker? They make markets in/buy and sell CAC coins. PCGS and NGC don’t.
CAC is the definition of a market maker. Although as we saw in a prior thread, people feel free to redefine the term "market maker".
One of the few things I'm not enthusiastic about is the CAC role as market maker as well as certifier. There is a bit of subjectivity present as well a at least a potential conflict of interest.
They may be a market maker, but I can about guarantee you I would pay quite a bit more for coins than their offer price as a dealer! As a collector for a coin I want! way, way more! I don't understand the security some folks here get from CAC being a market maker. CAC won't buy a coin just because they CAC'd it! Of course everything has a basement price so maybe I should withdraw that!
CAC will offer on any CAC coin but JA has been clear that they are not the higher buyer in all market segments. Being a market maker doesn't mean you are the higher buyer of all coins. It means you set the floor not the ceiling.
From a dealer standpoint I view it totally the opposite as you. Many people ask me where I get all my nice Barbers. I get a lot of them because I am the higher buyer! Just bought a dozen halves the other day another dealer on the phone.
Please don't offer one of your off the wall comebacks!
Eff off.
Is that "on the wall"?
The definition of market maker is clear. It's a bit off the wall of you to redefine it.
From OED:
A market maker "a dealer in securities or other assets who undertakes to buy and sell at specified prices at all times".
CAC runs an exchange with posted bid/ask prices. It is by definition a market maker
Oh my. Heh
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
amwldcoin Posts: 11,167 ✭✭✭✭✭ July 23, 2022 7:24PM @jmlanzaf said:
» show previous quotes
CAC will offer on any CAC coin but JA has been clear that they are not the higher buyer in all market segments. Being a market maker doesn't mean you are the higher buyer of all coins. It means you set the floor not the ceiling
>
From a dealer standpoint I view it totally the opposite as you. Many people ask me where I get all my nice Barbers. I get a lot of them because I am the higher buyer! Just bought a dozen halves the other day another dealer on the phone.
Please don't offer one of your off the wall comebacks!
>
You describing yourself as being “the higher buyer” has zero bearing on CAC’s status as a market maker.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
A market maker creates liquidity in a market. Under the strictest definition, they step into to buy when a security or coin in this discussion is up for sale with no or limited buying interest and they sell when there are buyers with limited selling interest. So in a sense they do set the floor when buying. In the financial markets, market makers are obligated to buy and/or sell to maintain liquidity in a given security. Obviously CAC does not have those strict obligations to maintain liquidity in CAC coins, so maybe technically they act more like a dealer than a market maker. But the bottom line is they are active in the market regardless of the term you want to put on it.
Market maker? Wouldn't it be more logical to think of CAC as a value added service? They do add value, whether perceived or real, to existing coins that have already been assigned a perceived value by being graded by a grading company.
@spyglassdesign said:
Market maker? Wouldn't it be more logical to think of CAC as a value added service? They do add value, whether perceived or real, to existing coins that have already been assigned a perceived value by being graded by a grading company.
Perhaps market influencer at best?
You are not understanding how the company works. They don't make any money on stickering coins. They make money on making market in the coins they sticker.
CDN Exchange is a clearing house for CAC material with posted bid/ask prices.
@spyglassdesign said:
Market maker? Wouldn't it be more logical to think of CAC as a value added service? They do add value, whether perceived or real, to existing coins that have already been assigned a perceived value by being graded by a grading company.
@spyglassdesign said:
Market maker? Wouldn't it be more logical to think of CAC as a value added service? They do add value, whether perceived or real, to existing coins that have already been assigned a perceived value by being graded by a grading company.
Perhaps market influencer at best?
In this case, “value added service” and “market maker” aren’t mutually exclusive.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Weiss said:
I don't consider CAC a "market maker" any more than I consider PCGS or NGC a "market maker".
Why don’t you consider CAC to be a market maker? They make markets in/buy and sell CAC coins. PCGS and NGC don’t.
CAC is the definition of a market maker. Although as we saw in a prior thread, people feel free to redefine the term "market maker".
One of the few things I'm not enthusiastic about is the CAC role as market maker as well as certifier. There is a bit of subjectivity present as well a at least a potential conflict of interest.
They may be a market maker, but I can about guarantee you I would pay quite a bit more for coins than their offer price as a dealer! As a collector for a coin I want! way, way more! I don't understand the security some folks here get from CAC being a market maker. CAC won't buy a coin just because they CAC'd it! Of course everything has a basement price so maybe I should withdraw that!
CAC will offer on any CAC coin but JA has been clear that they are not the higher buyer in all market segments. Being a market maker doesn't mean you are the higher buyer of all coins. It means you set the floor not the ceiling.
From a dealer standpoint I view it totally the opposite as you. Many people ask me where I get all my nice Barbers. I get a lot of them because I am the higher buyer! Just bought a dozen halves the other day another dealer on the phone.
Please don't offer one of your off the wall comebacks!
Eff off.
Is that "on the wall"?
The definition of market maker is clear. It's a bit off the wall of you to redefine it.
From OED:
A market maker "a dealer in securities or other assets who undertakes to buy and sell at specified prices at all times".
CAC runs an exchange with posted bid/ask prices. It is by definition a market maker.
CAC does not run an exchange as they do not buy everything! I would be interested to know if they buy, or are able to buy even 10% of what they are offered.
All US coins have a floor, it's called face value!
@Weiss said:
I don't consider CAC a "market maker" any more than I consider PCGS or NGC a "market maker".
Why don’t you consider CAC to be a market maker? They make markets in/buy and sell CAC coins. PCGS and NGC don’t.
CAC is the definition of a market maker. Although as we saw in a prior thread, people feel free to redefine the term "market maker".
One of the few things I'm not enthusiastic about is the CAC role as market maker as well as certifier. There is a bit of subjectivity present as well a at least a potential conflict of interest.
They may be a market maker, but I can about guarantee you I would pay quite a bit more for coins than their offer price as a dealer! As a collector for a coin I want! way, way more! I don't understand the security some folks here get from CAC being a market maker. CAC won't buy a coin just because they CAC'd it! Of course everything has a basement price so maybe I should withdraw that!
CAC will offer on any CAC coin but JA has been clear that they are not the higher buyer in all market segments. Being a market maker doesn't mean you are the higher buyer of all coins. It means you set the floor not the ceiling.
From a dealer standpoint I view it totally the opposite as you. Many people ask me where I get all my nice Barbers. I get a lot of them because I am the higher buyer! Just bought a dozen halves the other day another dealer on the phone.
Please don't offer one of your off the wall comebacks!
Eff off.
Is that "on the wall"?
The definition of market maker is clear. It's a bit off the wall of you to redefine it.
From OED:
A market maker "a dealer in securities or other assets who undertakes to buy and sell at specified prices at all times".
CAC runs an exchange with posted bid/ask prices. It is by definition a market maker.
CAC does not run an exchange as they do not buy everything! I would be interested to know if they buy, or are able to buy even 10% of what they are offered.
All US coins have a floor, it's called face value!
Edited for accuracy:
CAC does run on an exchange:CDN Exchange.
Market makers don't buy everything. That is not their role. Unless you simply wish to maintain your ignorance, you can read up on how securities market makers work. Hint: they do not buy every share of stock on the exchange.
@spyglassdesign said:
Market maker? Wouldn't it be more logical to think of CAC as a value added service? They do add value, whether perceived or real, to existing coins that have already been assigned a perceived value by being graded by a grading company.
Perhaps market influencer at best?
You are not understanding how the company works. They don't make any money on stickering coins. They make money on making market in the coins they sticker.
CDN Exchange is a clearing house for CAC material with posted bid/ask prices.
Please don't tell me again they are not making money stickering coins. If they are not, then explain to me how our hosts are able to make money?
Hypothetical: I have a corporation that never makes any money. It is a great company to work for as it pays very high salaries!
@Weiss said:
I don't consider CAC a "market maker" any more than I consider PCGS or NGC a "market maker".
Why don’t you consider CAC to be a market maker? They make markets in/buy and sell CAC coins. PCGS and NGC don’t.
CAC is the definition of a market maker. Although as we saw in a prior thread, people feel free to redefine the term "market maker".
One of the few things I'm not enthusiastic about is the CAC role as market maker as well as certifier. There is a bit of subjectivity present as well a at least a potential conflict of interest.
They may be a market maker, but I can about guarantee you I would pay quite a bit more for coins than their offer price as a dealer! As a collector for a coin I want! way, way more! I don't understand the security some folks here get from CAC being a market maker. CAC won't buy a coin just because they CAC'd it! Of course everything has a basement price so maybe I should withdraw that!
CAC will offer on any CAC coin but JA has been clear that they are not the higher buyer in all market segments. Being a market maker doesn't mean you are the higher buyer of all coins. It means you set the floor not the ceiling.
From a dealer standpoint I view it totally the opposite as you. Many people ask me where I get all my nice Barbers. I get a lot of them because I am the higher buyer! Just bought a dozen halves the other day another dealer on the phone.
Please don't offer one of your off the wall comebacks!
Eff off.
Is that "on the wall"?
The definition of market maker is clear. It's a bit off the wall of you to redefine it.
From OED:
A market maker "a dealer in securities or other assets who undertakes to buy and sell at specified prices at all times".
CAC runs an exchange with posted bid/ask prices. It is by definition a market maker.
CAC does not run an exchange as they do not buy everything! I would be interested to know if they buy, or are able to buy even 10% of what they are offered.
All US coins have a floor, it's called face value!
CAC does run an exchange:CDN Exchange. Market makers don't buy everything. That is not their role. Unless you simply wish to maintain your ignorance, you can read up on how securities market makers work. Hint: they do not buy every share of stock on the exchange.
CDN is not run by CAC last I knew. It's operated by grey sheet.
@Weiss said:
I don't consider CAC a "market maker" any more than I consider PCGS or NGC a "market maker".
Why don’t you consider CAC to be a market maker? They make markets in/buy and sell CAC coins. PCGS and NGC don’t.
CAC is the definition of a market maker. Although as we saw in a prior thread, people feel free to redefine the term "market maker".
One of the few things I'm not enthusiastic about is the CAC role as market maker as well as certifier. There is a bit of subjectivity present as well a at least a potential conflict of interest.
They may be a market maker, but I can about guarantee you I would pay quite a bit more for coins than their offer price as a dealer! As a collector for a coin I want! way, way more! I don't understand the security some folks here get from CAC being a market maker. CAC won't buy a coin just because they CAC'd it! Of course everything has a basement price so maybe I should withdraw that!
CAC will offer on any CAC coin but JA has been clear that they are not the higher buyer in all market segments. Being a market maker doesn't mean you are the higher buyer of all coins. It means you set the floor not the ceiling.
From a dealer standpoint I view it totally the opposite as you. Many people ask me where I get all my nice Barbers. I get a lot of them because I am the higher buyer! Just bought a dozen halves the other day another dealer on the phone.
Please don't offer one of your off the wall comebacks!
Eff off.
Is that "on the wall"?
The definition of market maker is clear. It's a bit off the wall of you to redefine it.
From OED:
A market maker "a dealer in securities or other assets who undertakes to buy and sell at specified prices at all times".
CAC runs an exchange with posted bid/ask prices. It is by definition a market maker.
CAC does not run an exchange as they do not buy everything! I would be interested to know if they buy, or are able to buy even 10% of what they are offered.
All US coins have a floor, it's called face value!
CAC does run an exchange:CDN Exchange. Market makers don't buy everything. That is not their role. Unless you simply wish to maintain your ignorance, you can read up on how securities market makers work. Hint: they do not buy every share of stock on the exchange.
CDN is not run by CAC last I knew. It's operated by grey sheet.
Sorry, sloppy language. But if you were a member of CDNEx you'd see the areas CAC seeks to make market.
@spyglassdesign said:
Market maker? Wouldn't it be more logical to think of CAC as a value added service? They do add value, whether perceived or real, to existing coins that have already been assigned a perceived value by being graded by a grading company.
Perhaps market influencer at best?
You are not understanding how the company works. They don't make any money on stickering coins. They make money on making market in the coins they sticker.
CDN Exchange is a clearing house for CAC material with posted bid/ask prices.
Please don't tell me again they are not making money stickering coins. If they are not, then explain to me how our hosts are able to make money?
Hypothetical: I have a corporation that never makes any money. It is a great company to work for as it pays very high salaries!
JA has said it himself.
Edited to add: he didn't claim to be losing money but to be breaking even.
@spyglassdesign said:
Market maker? Wouldn't it be more logical to think of CAC as a value added service? They do add value, whether perceived or real, to existing coins that have already been assigned a perceived value by being graded by a grading company.
Perhaps market influencer at best?
You are not understanding how the company works. They don't make any money on stickering coins. They make money on making market in the coins they sticker.
CDN Exchange is a clearing house for CAC material with posted bid/ask prices.
Please don't tell me again they are not making money stickering coins. If they are not, then explain to me how our hosts are able to make money?
Hypothetical: I have a corporation that never makes any money. It is a great company to work for as it pays very high salaries!
Overall, our hosts charge much higher fees for the various services they provide and do a far greater volume. Surely you already knew that or could have arrived at that answer without much thought.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@spyglassdesign said:
Market maker? Wouldn't it be more logical to think of CAC as a value added service? They do add value, whether perceived or real, to existing coins that have already been assigned a perceived value by being graded by a grading company.
Perhaps market influencer at best?
You are not understanding how the company works. They don't make any money on stickering coins. They make money on making market in the coins they sticker.
CDN Exchange is a clearing house for CAC material with posted bid/ask prices.
Please don't tell me again they are not making money stickering coins. If they are not, then explain to me how our hosts are able to make money?
Hypothetical: I have a corporation that never makes any money. It is a great company to work for as it pays very high salaries!
Overall, our hosts charge much higher fees for the various services they provide and do a far greater volume. Surely you already knew that or could have arrived at that answer without much thought.
Our hosts do tens of thousands of modern coins that CAC won't even look at. Our host also charges a fee even if a coin body bags while CAC, for collectors, does not charge for coins that do not sticker.
And, most importantly to the point of this thread, PCGS does NOT buy/sell coins while CAC does.
In the interview posted above, JA says they may stop stickering altogether and just "make market" in the static population of CAC coins.
@spyglassdesign said:
Market maker? Wouldn't it be more logical to think of CAC as a value added service? They do add value, whether perceived or real, to existing coins that have already been assigned a perceived value by being graded by a grading company.
Perhaps market influencer at best?
You are not understanding how the company works. They don't make any money on stickering coins. They make money on making market in the coins they sticker.
CDN Exchange is a clearing house for CAC material with posted bid/ask prices.
Please don't tell me again they are not making money stickering coins. If they are not, then explain to me how our hosts are able to make money?
Hypothetical: I have a corporation that never makes any money. It is a great company to work for as it pays very high salaries!
Overall, our hosts charge much higher fees for the various services they provide and do a far greater volume. Surely you already knew that or could have arrived at that answer without much thought.
Our hosts do tens of thousands of modern coins that CAC won't even look at. Our host also charges a fee even if a coin body bags while CAC, for collectors, does not charge for coins that do not sticker.
And, most importantly to the point of this thread, PCGS does NOT buy/sell coins while CAC does.
In the interview posted above, JA says they may stop stickering altogether and just "make market" in the static population of CAC coins.
But CAC doesn’t buy everything and they don’t always pay the highest prices, so they can’t be a market maker.
😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@spyglassdesign said:
Market maker? Wouldn't it be more logical to think of CAC as a value added service? They do add value, whether perceived or real, to existing coins that have already been assigned a perceived value by being graded by a grading company.
Perhaps market influencer at best?
You are not understanding how the company works. They don't make any money on stickering coins. They make money on making market in the coins they sticker.
CDN Exchange is a clearing house for CAC material with posted bid/ask prices.
Please don't tell me again they are not making money stickering coins. If they are not, then explain to me how our hosts are able to make money?
Hypothetical: I have a corporation that never makes any money. It is a great company to work for as it pays very high salaries!
Overall, our hosts charge much higher fees for the various services they provide and do a far greater volume. Surely you already knew that or could have arrived at that answer without much thought.
Our hosts do tens of thousands of modern coins that CAC won't even look at. Our host also charges a fee even if a coin body bags while CAC, for collectors, does not charge for coins that do not sticker.
And, most importantly to the point of this thread, PCGS does NOT buy/sell coins while CAC does.
In the interview posted above, JA says they may stop stickering altogether and just "make market" in the static population of CAC coins.
But CAC doesn’t buy everything and they don’t always pay the highest prices, so they can’t be a market maker.
😉
Lol.
JA is quite clear about that. I recall a forum member inquiring about a CAC dime and JA told him he would quote a price but would probably not be the higher buyer.
You can love CAC or hate them, but they are very transparent about what they do and why.
Interesting discussion. All I know is, I really enjoy all my PCGS CAC Gold coins. It is interesting to hear there are still dealers and collectors that struggle with what CAC brings to the hobby. In their own words "They make markets" so I would be willing to call them a market maker.
Our hosts grade both coins and currency and both US and world. They are a TPG, CAC is not. CAC only participates in US Classic coins which is perfectly understandable IMV.
In addition CAC is a very small part of graded numismatic material on eBay. I have done well with CAC coins but that inventory class sold out. My focus has lately been more on bullion plus world coins and currency. I like CAC coins but they are simply a separate inventory class to me with their own pricing structure in the CDN. How many of you have been offered CAC coins at your table at a show? We’re you able to get a decent deal or have to pay thru the nose? What about selling them at the shows? Been able get decent money vs cost? For my 2022 auc bids on CAC material lost them all lol.
Mainly a big picture guy. primarily
curious on bourse players views. Considering major investment in CAC material. Don’t doubt they market maker for CAC material but they are not the only galaxy in the universe. What ballpark is their market offer buy or sell vs CDN CAC bid?
@Cougar1978 said:
Mainly a big picture guy. Curious on bourse players views. They may be a market maker for CAC material but they are not the only galaxy in the universe. What ballpark is their market offer vs CDN CAC bid?
@Cougar1978 said:
Mainly a big picture guy. Curious on bourse players views. They may be a market maker for CAC material but they are not the only galaxy in the universe. What ballpark is their market offer vs CDN CAC bid?
Probably 20 back or more!
That sounds like a particularly bad guess - if it really was a guess and not just a slam - considering that in many cases, the CDN CAC bid is probably reflecting CAC’s sight unseen bid/“market offer”. In other words, CAC’s offer would be equal to CDN CAC bid and vice versa.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Cougar1978 said:
Mainly a big picture guy. Curious on bourse players views. They may be a market maker for CAC material but they are not the only galaxy in the universe. What ballpark is their market offer vs CDN CAC bid?
Probably 20 back or more!
That sounds like a particularly bad guess - if it really was a guess and not just a slam - considering that in many cases, the CDN CAC bid is probably reflecting CAC’s sight unseen bid/“market offer”. In other words, CAC’s offer would be equal to CDN CAC bid and vice versa.
That is correct. For heavily traded material like Morgan dollars, CDN bid comes right off the CDN Exchange.
The only reason small players bid 10 or 20 back is so they can flip them to the MARKET MAKERS at bid.
@MFeld@jmlanzaf
So you guys are monitoring who is placing bids on CDN? I would wager the majority of the are bids than not from CAC. There is little evidence here to support what you say. What little has been posted about selling to CAC here is there offers weren't enough.
The one thing that sticks in my Craw was related to me by a very good dealer friend whom I would trust with my wife and my life. There was a better date Seated Dollar that had a CAC POP of 0. The CDN bid was 50-60K for a CAC in the grade. A very good friend of his made one at CAC and the bid dropped into the 30's overnight.
I'm sorry, but I just don't like all this crap!
Folks, learn coins yourself and get rid of the crutch. Let's not go back to the times when the government destroyed the coin market!
@amwldcoin said: @MFeld@jmlanzaf
So you guys are monitoring who is placing bids on CDN? I would wager the majority of the are bids than not from CAC. There is little evidence here to support what you say. What little has been posted about selling to CAC here is there offers weren't enough.
The one thing that sticks in my Craw was related to me by a very good dealer friend whom I would trust with my wife and my life. There was a better date Seated Dollar that had a CAC POP of 0. The CDN bid was 50-60K for a CAC in the grade. A very good friend of his made one at CAC and the bid dropped into the 30's overnight.
I'm sorry, but I just don't like all this crap!
Folks, learn coins yourself and get rid of the crutch. Let's not go back to the times when the government destroyed the coin market!
I’m hesitant to insert myself into this, but I happened to watch a CDN tutorial video just yesterday about how to see the top bidders on the exchange. This is over two years old and I’m not a member to see updated figures, but CAC was—by leaps and bounds—the biggest bidder at the time.
@amwldcoin said: @MFeld@jmlanzaf
So you guys are monitoring who is placing bids on CDN? I would wager the majority of the are bids than not from CAC. There is little evidence here to support what you say. What little has been posted about selling to CAC here is there offers weren't enough.
The one thing that sticks in my Craw was related to me by a very good dealer friend whom I would trust with my wife and my life. There was a better date Seated Dollar that had a CAC POP of 0. The CDN bid was 50-60K for a CAC in the grade. A very good friend of his made one at CAC and the bid dropped into the 30's overnight.
I'm sorry, but I just don't like all this crap!
Folks, learn coins yourself and get rid of the crutch. Let's not go back to the times when the government destroyed the coin market!
If you're a member of the exchange, you can see exactly who is posted bids. Join the exchange for a month and you can see it with your own eyes. I don't know why you think Mark and I would lie about it. But since you don't want to actually do any research, feel free to cling to your ignorance.
Name your wager. I bet if you log into the exchange right now you will see tens of millions in JA CAC bids in certain categories. And none in others.. I could even tell you which categories but I feel like that is privileged information.
But whatever... believe what you want. We all know you don't want to learn anything new.
@amwldcoin said: @MFeld@jmlanzaf
So you guys are monitoring who is placing bids on CDN? I would wager the majority of the are bids than not from CAC. There is little evidence here to support what you say. What little has been posted about selling to CAC here is there offers weren't enough.
The one thing that sticks in my Craw was related to me by a very good dealer friend whom I would trust with my wife and my life. There was a better date Seated Dollar that had a CAC POP of 0. The CDN bid was 50-60K for a CAC in the grade. A very good friend of his made one at CAC and the bid dropped into the 30's overnight.
I'm sorry, but I just don't like all this crap!
Folks, learn coins yourself and get rid of the crutch. Let's not go back to the times when the government destroyed the coin market!
I’m hesitant to insert myself into this, but I happened to watch a CDN tutorial video just yesterday about how to see the top bidders on the exchange. This is over two years old and I’m not a member to see updated figures, but CAC was—by leaps and bounds—the biggest bidder at the time.
Shhh...@amwldcoin will pounce in you and call you a liar.
A market maker is simply an entity that provides increased liquidity to a given market. For example house flippers are market makers in the real estate market. Even on ugly/condemned homes they are willing to step in a put in a bid if a profit is possible.
Coin dealers are the #1 market makers. Even on ugly coins they are willing to put in a bid and collect the difference in the
bid/ask spread for whatever they chose to sell it for.
Is CAC the largest market maker? No, but they 100% provide liquidity to the market, whether directly by buying coins or by causing interest when people see the green bean.
I’m hesitant to insert myself into this, but I happened to watch a CDN tutorial video just yesterday about how to see the top bidders on the exchange. This is over two years old and I’m not a member to see updated figures, but CAC was—by leaps and bounds—the biggest bidder at the time.
I just looked at those numbers. CAC had $87 million in bids! Over 10 times number 2 and 100 times number 9.
I do agree folks should not blindly overpay for a coin because it has a cac sticker.
I've seen enough examples of poor eye quality or some other issue a coin has with the sticker.
@amwldcoin said: @MFeld@jmlanzaf
So you guys are monitoring who is placing bids on CDN? I would wager the majority of the are bids than not from CAC. There is little evidence here to support what you say. What little has been posted about selling to CAC here is there offers weren't enough.
The one thing that sticks in my Craw was related to me by a very good dealer friend whom I would trust with my wife and my life. There was a better date Seated Dollar that had a CAC POP of 0. The CDN bid was 50-60K for a CAC in the grade. A very good friend of his made one at CAC and the bid dropped into the 30's overnight.
I'm sorry, but I just don't like all this crap!
Folks, learn coins yourself and get rid of the crutch. Let's not go back to the times when the government destroyed the coin market!
I look at CDN and CAC bids literally every day I’m at the office.
CAC is typically a major, if not THE major bidder for CAC coins.
The fact that some posters here weren’t happy with the offers they received for their CAC coins says nothing about whether CAC is a market maker or whether the large majority of their bids are highly competitive - they are. Otherwise, they wouldn’t be buying and selling millions of dollars worth of CAC coins each month, as they do.
It’s unlikely that CAC would have even had a bid posted for a better date Seated Dollar with a CAC pop of 0. That’s not one of the areas in which they tend to bid. So if the CDN bid dropped, it might not have had anything to do with any action on the part of CAC. Edited to add: I just asked John A. at CAC about the seated dollar. He said that even if he'd had a bid posted and lowered it, the lowered price wouldn't have been picked up/reflected by CDN unless there was a transaction or auction record for it. So - my words here - CAC had nothing to do with the lowered bid on the coin.
You throw out insults and make accusations which aren’t factually based and at the same time, ignore facts when they’re presented to you.
I won’t be replying to any more of your posts.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@amwldcoin said: @MFeld@jmlanzaf
So you guys are monitoring who is placing bids on CDN? I would wager the majority of the are bids than not from CAC. There is little evidence here to support what you say. What little has been posted about selling to CAC here is there offers weren't enough.
The one thing that sticks in my Craw was related to me by a very good dealer friend whom I would trust with my wife and my life. There was a better date Seated Dollar that had a CAC POP of 0. The CDN bid was 50-60K for a CAC in the grade. A very good friend of his made one at CAC and the bid dropped into the 30's overnight.
I'm sorry, but I just don't like all this crap!
Folks, learn coins yourself and get rid of the crutch. Let's not go back to the times when the government destroyed the coin market!
You throw out insults and make accusations which aren’t factually based and at the same time, ignore facts when they’re presented to you.
I won’t be replying to any more of your posts.
I was going to let this drop until it really sunk in what you are saying or implying. I feel the need to address your slanderous statement, otherwise going silent would be an admission of guilt. For starters I never said "CAC" placed and dropped their bid. I said the CAC bid dropped. Perhaps greysheet or CAC need to come up with a way to discern between the 2.
This absolutely did happen and if it came down to a legal fight I'm sure the party's involved would defend my statement. Unlike some other keyboard warriors here I do not make up stories!
@amwldcoin said: @MFeld@jmlanzaf
So you guys are monitoring who is placing bids on CDN? I would wager the majority of the are bids than not from CAC. There is little evidence here to support what you say. What little has been posted about selling to CAC here is there offers weren't enough.
The one thing that sticks in my Craw was related to me by a very good dealer friend whom I would trust with my wife and my life. There was a better date Seated Dollar that had a CAC POP of 0. The CDN bid was 50-60K for a CAC in the grade. A very good friend of his made one at CAC and the bid dropped into the 30's overnight.
I'm sorry, but I just don't like all this crap!
Folks, learn coins yourself and get rid of the crutch. Let's not go back to the times when the government destroyed the coin market!
You throw out insults and make accusations which aren’t factually based and at the same time, ignore facts when they’re presented to you.
I won’t be replying to any more of your posts.
I was going to let this drop until it really sunk in what you are saying or implying. I feel the need to address your slanderous statement, otherwise going silent would be an admission of guilt. For starters I never said "CAC" placed and dropped their bid. I said the CAC bid dropped. Perhaps greysheet or CAC need to come up with a way to discern between the 2.
This absolutely did happen and if it came down to a legal fight I'm sure the party's involved would defend my statement. Unlike some other keyboard warriors here I do not make up stories!
There is likely no posted bid for a coin with pop 0. Any CDN "bid" would be a market extrapolation. So, when the coin gets made their might be a real bid. There's nothing nefarious about that. Most guide prices for truly rare coins are largely guesswork as there is often not a posted bid.
No one doubts your story. That isn't the fact that you are either making up or denying.
@jmlanzaf said:
There is likely no posted bid for a coin with pop 0.
Surely there is - someone who wants such a coin would post a bid waiting for one to turn up. Just a matter of time if some are extant in that grade. There is no charge for posting a bid, I'd do the same if I were on that exchange and wanted a particular coin in CAC and grade on the very rare side of things. Let's say there were 5 in that grade from the TPG's, surely one will come up with CAC at some point, hence the bid as Darrell pointed out.
@jmlanzaf said:
There is likely no posted bid for a coin with pop 0.
Surely there is - someone who wants such a coin would post a bid waiting for one to turn up. Just a matter of time if some are extant in that grade. There is no charge for posting a bid, I'd do the same if I were on that exchange and wanted a particular coin in CAC and grade on the very rare side of things. Let's say there were 5 in that grade from the TPG's, surely one will come up with CAC at some point, hence the bid as Darrell pointed out.
Best, SH
Have you ever been on that exchange? If not, perhaps you should research first. There are plenty of rare coins that aren't pop 0 that have no bids much less pop 0 coins.
@jmlanzaf said:
There is likely no posted bid for a coin with pop 0.
Surely there is - someone who wants such a coin would post a bid waiting for one to turn up. Just a matter of time if some are extant in that grade. There is no charge for posting a bid, I'd do the same if I were on that exchange and wanted a particular coin in CAC and grade on the very rare side of things. Let's say there were 5 in that grade from the TPG's, surely one will come up with CAC at some point, hence the bid as Darrell pointed out.
Best, SH
Have you ever been on that exchange? If not, perhaps you should research first. There are plenty of rare coins that aren't pop 0 that have no bids much less pop 0 coins.
Scroll through the greysheet and PCGS PG, there are coins that don't exist now with posted bids or values.
@jmlanzaf said:
There is likely no posted bid for a coin with pop 0.
Surely there is - someone who wants such a coin would post a bid waiting for one to turn up. Just a matter of time if some are extant in that grade. There is no charge for posting a bid, I'd do the same if I were on that exchange and wanted a particular coin in CAC and grade on the very rare side of things. Let's say there were 5 in that grade from the TPG's, surely one will come up with CAC at some point, hence the bid as Darrell pointed out.
Best, SH
Have you ever been on that exchange? If not, perhaps you should research first. There are plenty of rare coins that aren't pop 0 that have no bids much less pop 0 coins.
Scroll through the greysheet and PCGS PG, there are coins that don't exist now with posted bids or values.
Those are NOT NECESSARILY actual open bids. Guide numbers are arrived at from a variety of sources. They are not all open exchange bids.
I've been on the exchange. Not every actual existing coin had a bid much less aspirational coins.
Spend the $150 and join for a month. You might actually learn something.
@jmlanzaf said:
Guide numbers are arrived at from a variety of sources.
And some of them are just made up. I don't actively collect US coins so I don't know how things are in that area but with world coins, it's not at all unusual for price guides to include values for coins that are not known to exist.
Comments
They may be a market maker, but I can about guarantee you I would pay quite a bit more for coins than their offer price as a dealer! As a collector for a coin I want! way, way more! I don't understand the security some folks here get from CAC being a market maker. CAC won't buy a coin just because they CAC'd it! Of course everything has a basement price so maybe I should withdraw that!
Trouble maker! ???
Don't you find those unmotivated "C" students the most frustrating?
I do. But they are probably still more motivated than the people who never went to college or a trade school.
CAC will offer on any CAC coin but JA has been clear that they are not the higher buyer in all market segments. Being a market maker doesn't mean you are the higher buyer of all coins. It means you set the floor not the ceiling.
From a dealer standpoint I view it totally the opposite as you. Many people ask me where I get all my nice Barbers. I get a lot of them because I am the higher buyer! Just bought a dozen halves the other day another dealer on the phone.
Please don't offer one of your off the wall comebacks!
Eff off.
Is that "on the wall"?
The definition of market maker is clear. It's a bit off the wall of you to redefine it.
From OED:
A market maker "a dealer in securities or other assets who undertakes to buy and sell at specified prices at all times".
CAC runs an exchange with posted bid/ask prices. It is by definition a market maker.
Oh my. Heh
amwldcoin Posts: 11,167 ✭✭✭✭✭ July 23, 2022 7:24PM
@jmlanzaf said:
» show previous quotes
CAC will offer on any CAC coin but JA has been clear that they are not the higher buyer in all market segments. Being a market maker doesn't mean you are the higher buyer of all coins. It means you set the floor not the ceiling
>
From a dealer standpoint I view it totally the opposite as you. Many people ask me where I get all my nice Barbers. I get a lot of them because I am the higher buyer! Just bought a dozen halves the other day another dealer on the phone.
Please don't offer one of your off the wall comebacks!
>
You describing yourself as being “the higher buyer” has zero bearing on CAC’s status as a market maker.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
A market maker creates liquidity in a market. Under the strictest definition, they step into to buy when a security or coin in this discussion is up for sale with no or limited buying interest and they sell when there are buyers with limited selling interest. So in a sense they do set the floor when buying. In the financial markets, market makers are obligated to buy and/or sell to maintain liquidity in a given security. Obviously CAC does not have those strict obligations to maintain liquidity in CAC coins, so maybe technically they act more like a dealer than a market maker. But the bottom line is they are active in the market regardless of the term you want to put on it.
Market maker? Wouldn't it be more logical to think of CAC as a value added service? They do add value, whether perceived or real, to existing coins that have already been assigned a perceived value by being graded by a grading company.
Perhaps market influencer at best?
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin
You are not understanding how the company works. They don't make any money on stickering coins. They make money on making market in the coins they sticker.
CDN Exchange is a clearing house for CAC material with posted bid/ask prices.
In this case, “value added service” and “market maker” aren’t mutually exclusive.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
CAC does not run an exchange as they do not buy everything! I would be interested to know if they buy, or are able to buy even 10% of what they are offered.
All US coins have a floor, it's called face value!
Edited for accuracy:
CAC does run on an exchange:CDN Exchange.
Market makers don't buy everything. That is not their role. Unless you simply wish to maintain your ignorance, you can read up on how securities market makers work. Hint: they do not buy every share of stock on the exchange.
Please don't tell me again they are not making money stickering coins. If they are not, then explain to me how our hosts are able to make money?
Hypothetical: I have a corporation that never makes any money. It is a great company to work for as it pays very high salaries!
CDN is not run by CAC last I knew. It's operated by grey sheet.
Sorry, sloppy language. But if you were a member of CDNEx you'd see the areas CAC seeks to make market.
JA has said it himself.
Edited to add: he didn't claim to be losing money but to be breaking even.
Overall, our hosts charge much higher fees for the various services they provide and do a far greater volume. Surely you already knew that or could have arrived at that answer without much thought.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
https://www.greysheet.com/news/story/an-interview-with-cac-founder-john-albanese
Our hosts do tens of thousands of modern coins that CAC won't even look at. Our host also charges a fee even if a coin body bags while CAC, for collectors, does not charge for coins that do not sticker.
And, most importantly to the point of this thread, PCGS does NOT buy/sell coins while CAC does.
In the interview posted above, JA says they may stop stickering altogether and just "make market" in the static population of CAC coins.
But CAC doesn’t buy everything and they don’t always pay the highest prices, so they can’t be a market maker.
😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Lol.
JA is quite clear about that. I recall a forum member inquiring about a CAC dime and JA told him he would quote a price but would probably not be the higher buyer.
You can love CAC or hate them, but they are very transparent about what they do and why.
And yet, people are still confused about what CAC is and what they do. It's a mystery.
Interesting discussion. All I know is, I really enjoy all my PCGS CAC Gold coins. It is interesting to hear there are still dealers and collectors that struggle with what CAC brings to the hobby. In their own words "They make markets" so I would be willing to call them a market maker.
Successful BST with drddm, BustDMs, Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
Our hosts grade both coins and currency and both US and world. They are a TPG, CAC is not. CAC only participates in US Classic coins which is perfectly understandable IMV.
In addition CAC is a very small part of graded numismatic material on eBay. I have done well with CAC coins but that inventory class sold out. My focus has lately been more on bullion plus world coins and currency. I like CAC coins but they are simply a separate inventory class to me with their own pricing structure in the CDN. How many of you have been offered CAC coins at your table at a show? We’re you able to get a decent deal or have to pay thru the nose? What about selling them at the shows? Been able get decent money vs cost? For my 2022 auc bids on CAC material lost them all lol.
What does any of that have to do with CAC being a market maker?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Mainly a big picture guy. primarily
curious on bourse players views. Considering major investment in CAC material. Don’t doubt they market maker for CAC material but they are not the only galaxy in the universe. What ballpark is their market offer buy or sell vs CDN CAC bid?
Probably 20 back or more!
That sounds like a particularly bad guess - if it really was a guess and not just a slam - considering that in many cases, the CDN CAC bid is probably reflecting CAC’s sight unseen bid/“market offer”. In other words, CAC’s offer would be equal to CDN CAC bid and vice versa.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That is correct. For heavily traded material like Morgan dollars, CDN bid comes right off the CDN Exchange.
The only reason small players bid 10 or 20 back is so they can flip them to the MARKET MAKERS at bid.
@MFeld @jmlanzaf
So you guys are monitoring who is placing bids on CDN? I would wager the majority of the are bids than not from CAC. There is little evidence here to support what you say. What little has been posted about selling to CAC here is there offers weren't enough.
The one thing that sticks in my Craw was related to me by a very good dealer friend whom I would trust with my wife and my life. There was a better date Seated Dollar that had a CAC POP of 0. The CDN bid was 50-60K for a CAC in the grade. A very good friend of his made one at CAC and the bid dropped into the 30's overnight.
I'm sorry, but I just don't like all this crap!
Folks, learn coins yourself and get rid of the crutch. Let's not go back to the times when the government destroyed the coin market!
I’m hesitant to insert myself into this, but I happened to watch a CDN tutorial video just yesterday about how to see the top bidders on the exchange. This is over two years old and I’m not a member to see updated figures, but CAC was—by leaps and bounds—the biggest bidder at the time.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
If you're a member of the exchange, you can see exactly who is posted bids. Join the exchange for a month and you can see it with your own eyes. I don't know why you think Mark and I would lie about it. But since you don't want to actually do any research, feel free to cling to your ignorance.
Name your wager. I bet if you log into the exchange right now you will see tens of millions in JA CAC bids in certain categories. And none in others.. I could even tell you which categories but I feel like that is privileged information.
But whatever... believe what you want. We all know you don't want to learn anything new.
Shhh...@amwldcoin will pounce in you and call you a liar.
A market maker is simply an entity that provides increased liquidity to a given market. For example house flippers are market makers in the real estate market. Even on ugly/condemned homes they are willing to step in a put in a bid if a profit is possible.
Coin dealers are the #1 market makers. Even on ugly coins they are willing to put in a bid and collect the difference in the
bid/ask spread for whatever they chose to sell it for.
Is CAC the largest market maker? No, but they 100% provide liquidity to the market, whether directly by buying coins or by causing interest when people see the green bean.
I just looked at those numbers. CAC had $87 million in bids! Over 10 times number 2 and 100 times number 9.
oh brother
I do agree folks should not blindly overpay for a coin because it has a cac sticker.
I've seen enough examples of poor eye quality or some other issue a coin has with the sticker.
I look at CDN and CAC bids literally every day I’m at the office.
CAC is typically a major, if not THE major bidder for CAC coins.
The fact that some posters here weren’t happy with the offers they received for their CAC coins says nothing about whether CAC is a market maker or whether the large majority of their bids are highly competitive - they are. Otherwise, they wouldn’t be buying and selling millions of dollars worth of CAC coins each month, as they do.
It’s unlikely that CAC would have even had a bid posted for a better date Seated Dollar with a CAC pop of 0. That’s not one of the areas in which they tend to bid. So if the CDN bid dropped, it might not have had anything to do with any action on the part of CAC. Edited to add: I just asked John A. at CAC about the seated dollar. He said that even if he'd had a bid posted and lowered it, the lowered price wouldn't have been picked up/reflected by CDN unless there was a transaction or auction record for it. So - my words here - CAC had nothing to do with the lowered bid on the coin.
You throw out insults and make accusations which aren’t factually based and at the same time, ignore facts when they’re presented to you.
I won’t be replying to any more of your posts.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Show me the coin
I was going to let this drop until it really sunk in what you are saying or implying. I feel the need to address your slanderous statement, otherwise going silent would be an admission of guilt. For starters I never said "CAC" placed and dropped their bid. I said the CAC bid dropped. Perhaps greysheet or CAC need to come up with a way to discern between the 2.
This absolutely did happen and if it came down to a legal fight I'm sure the party's involved would defend my statement. Unlike some other keyboard warriors here I do not make up stories!
There is likely no posted bid for a coin with pop 0. Any CDN "bid" would be a market extrapolation. So, when the coin gets made their might be a real bid. There's nothing nefarious about that. Most guide prices for truly rare coins are largely guesswork as there is often not a posted bid.
No one doubts your story. That isn't the fact that you are either making up or denying.
Surely there is - someone who wants such a coin would post a bid waiting for one to turn up. Just a matter of time if some are extant in that grade. There is no charge for posting a bid, I'd do the same if I were on that exchange and wanted a particular coin in CAC and grade on the very rare side of things. Let's say there were 5 in that grade from the TPG's, surely one will come up with CAC at some point, hence the bid as Darrell pointed out.
Best, SH
Have you ever been on that exchange? If not, perhaps you should research first. There are plenty of rare coins that aren't pop 0 that have no bids much less pop 0 coins.
Scroll through the greysheet and PCGS PG, there are coins that don't exist now with posted bids or values.
Those are NOT NECESSARILY actual open bids. Guide numbers are arrived at from a variety of sources. They are not all open exchange bids.
I've been on the exchange. Not every actual existing coin had a bid much less aspirational coins.
Spend the $150 and join for a month. You might actually learn something.
And some of them are just made up. I don't actively collect US coins so I don't know how things are in that area but with world coins, it's not at all unusual for price guides to include values for coins that are not known to exist.