Convince me that there's a difference between "Cabinet Friction" and Rub or Wear.
BryceM
Posts: 11,825 ✭✭✭✭✭
Do your worst.
3
BryceM
Posts: 11,825 ✭✭✭✭✭
Comments
It is only a distinction of intent; in my view the end result is still the same.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Except you can't know intent when viewing a coin with identical marks from an unknown source. "Cabinet friction" can't be taken literally. It describes a type of weae not an actual source of the wear.
I can't. There isn't.
See my prior response. The term describes a type of wear not an actual source of wear. "Cabinet friction" could be from light circulation.
Friction and rub seem roughly synonymous.
Wear definition: damage, erode, or destroy by friction or use.
So, it's a matter of degree in the latter comparison. Sorry, but that's the worst (and best) I could do...
I don’t expect to convince anyone of anything, but I’ll accept the challenge.
Cabinet friction/rub differs from circulation wear/rub as follows:
The term “cabinet friction” is typically used to describe coins that have not circulated, but which exhibit slight rub, due to having moved/slid around in a cabinet drawer or a tray, over a period of time.
“Circulation wear/rub” refers to slight wear, due to circulation.
The former is far less likely to display accompanying circulation marks/scratches on the devices and/or in the fields and/or on the rims. Look at these areas of the coin for clues as to whether you’re seeing “cabinet friction/rub” or “circulation wear/rub”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Okay, I'll give it my worst shot.
Wear seems to constitute more marks and displacement of metal and surface luster / finish than the other two, and from the regular use of circulating in commerce.
Rub would suggest light handling with hands and gloves, etc., but might not be as noticeable as what we define as "wear". May not have circulated, per se, but has areas that could be considered to be from such.
Cabinet Friction suggests the slight friction from sliding against a hard, inorganic surface. Different types of markings than "rub" or "wear", and certainly not always from a "cabinet".
My 2c.
Can I tell the deference between the second two? Maybe. Sometimes, with some coins.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
A coin has "cabinet friction" if you are buying it. It has wear if you are selling it.
It’s only on the high points, with perfect uncirculated fields.
I love to find coins like that in circ holders.
Seems to me that cabinet friction would be on one side of a coin rather than both, as with wear/rub
Slide friction getting a free pass here?
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
And what about CAC’s equivalent of body bagging, “high point friction”?
@DNADave said: Seems to me that cabinet friction would be on on.
Yes, interesting point. And presumably on the reverse.
So would cabinet friction grade out as UNC or AU?
An AU coin could develop cabinet friction and an UNC coin could eventually be downgraded to AU, as a result of too much of it. However, I typically see the term applied to UNC coins.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
In my opinion this would be a perfect example of cabinet friction. Wear only on the high points but otherwise a very nice MS coin. I think this one was a PCGS 64 or 65.
I’m in the “they came from a different mother, but they are brothers from a different mother”
I cynical that more valuable or rarer coins get a wink with that MS grade.
Other way around.
Why can't the collector flip them over to display the other side?
@jmlanzaf said: Why can't the collector flip them over to display the other side?
They can, of course, and I have no supporting evidence whatsoever, but I
guess that most collectors kept their coins obverse (and date) up.
there must be a term to apply to coins that have been "rigorously stored" for exceptional periods of time prior to proper types of holders for protection when they saW no actual circulation but are slightly less than when they left the mint. we are very lucky that more pvc or even more unstable type coin holders were used. between pvc and cleaning, i'm amazed as much as has survived in the condition it has considering cabinet friction, cleaning and toxic holders.
mark NAILED it imo.
I would think that at least one of the coins would show the reverse.
So JA told me my ms 64 SlQ has slight friction on the leg so no green sticker. But otherwise no marks at all on the obverse and no wear anywhere else , full blazing luster. Is it AU or BU?
It sounds like an uncirculated example with slight friction on the leg. That’s not at all unusual for Standing Liberty Quarters.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
if your slq was a 63 , would it have gotten a grean bean ?
You're both correct. If you're buying the coin, from your point of view, it has wear. But from the seller's point of view, it has cabinet friction.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Cabinet Friction suggests the slight friction from sliding against a hard, inorganic surface. Different types of markings than "rub" or "wear", and certainly not always from a "cabinet".
Agree. As I witnessed the movement of about 200 US Mint Treasury bags filled with 1,000 Morgans in the early 60's, some coins must have developed friction marks primarily on 1 side. They were delivered to my Dad's bank and placed in storage for a few days. Then moved to an armored truck. Then moved from the truck to the owners bank vault, which couldn't close since the bottom bags slid slightly from the weight of other bags on top. Had to be removed and restacked. These 60+ lb. bags were not handled gently and thrown/dropped, etc. My avatar came from 1 of those bags.
I assume the movement of bags during the years of mintage was no different, except no truck. I believe these are still true uncirculated coins, but graded for such friction.
Not quite true. Virtually all coin cabinets were lined with felt. Since almost all coins that were stored in coin cabinets were stored obverse side up, you would expect a coin with true cabinet friction to have the friction or wear on only the reverse side of the coin. The high points would look lightly polished from rubbing against the felt while the fields which are recessed and protected by the rim would look uncirculated.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I believe @MFeld has presented an excellent definition of these conditions. Clear, concise and defined. Cheers, RickO
Perry,
Sorry, wasn't clear in my comments. I think only a small % really know where the friction came from. It should just be called friction. The term is used too pervasively and certainly not always from a cabinet. I mostly agree with your definition of true cabinet friction except it is always on the reverse. It could be on the obverse if the coin was held too high and rubbed against the top of the drawer or if it was stored on the reverse, say due to toning.
While this has been a great academic hair-splitting exercise, my bottom line is the grade assigned on the slab label by the grading service and the overall attractiveness of the coin for the grade.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Cabinet friction arises from repeated removal and inspection of a prized numismatic asset from the lush, velvet-lined trays of a gentleman’s premium, handmade coin cabinet, as dozens of his esteemed contemporaries insist upon the privilege of gazing upon its metallic countenance.
Ordinary wear arises from repeated removal and inspection of a nondescript piece of pocket change from purses, pockets, cash registers, soda vending machines, and so on. Maybe it fell into a toilet, too.
In the end, if both coins happen to grade AU58, we seldom know the exact history of either piece. There is therefore no difference besides the fancy “cabinet friction” wording. It just sounds so much better in an auction catalogue!
Not to split hairs but I think it's less from the removal and inspection of coins and more from the coins sliding around inside their recesses every time the drawer is opened and closed.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Great conversation, but to twist the OP's question around a little:
Know this has been debated here several times, and in my opinion, they can have friction and still have no wear from circulation, and grade MS. Buyers will judge accordingly if it meets their standards for the grade.
I'm sorry. Cabinet Friction was originally coined so collectors that acquired MS coins with a provenance who took care of their acquisitions through repeated dusting and handling could market them as still MS.
The phrase expanded to include other AU coins in a time no interim grade between XF and MS existed. It was used in Sheldon's 1948 Early American Coppers and or subsequent editions as he tried to quantify the interim grades between XF (40) and MS(70) by presenting AU(50), MS(60) and MS(65). This replaced a large element of puffery with precision grading. This began with, or around the time of, his work introducing the 70 point scale.
Cabinet friction can be very obvious when the friction takes place after the coin has acquired a patina.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
What do you think about the grading of this coin?
I'm a firm believer in technical grading rather than financial grading. Use Net Grade and then play the silly games.
Hard to tell from photos. Strike looks weak around the head area, not much else I can tell.
Your picture isn’t clear enough for anyone to make a meaningful assessment.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Cabinet friction or wear? I'll post the grade later. Would not CAC.
Not a full head.
Definitely wear.
Knowing that a coin did not get a CAC sticker doesn't really tell you anything about the coin.
I'll concur but graded p62 which is why there is no CAC for me. I still love the coin though.
Could it be that storage in a cabinet prevents the coin from acquiring a patina where the coin is in contact with the cabinet?
It tells me that it wasn't an A or B for the grade given.
You didn't give a grade. So telling someone it didn't CAC doesn't tell them anything.
I figured if I gave the grade, it might make it too easy. What else can't I tell you.
Probably all kinds of things.
Was it even submitted to CAC?