Pokémon Case Discussion Part 3 Here
tkersting
Posts: 136 ✭✭✭
Not sure why the other threads keep getting closed but this seems like a topic reasonable collectors should discuss.
Mods please let us know what is off limits and let’s try and keep it civil and within rules.
If not other forums are discussing this. https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1500869
3
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Are there any new developments?
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Im wondering why they are getting shut down as well. i don't remember seeing any personal attacks. just let us know whats out of bounds. seems like an important and timely hobby topic
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
That would be nice.
Successful Trades: Swampboy,
Agreed the threads were civil.
PSA if you don't want this discuss due to your business arrangement with Mr Hart then at least be honest and upfront and admit to it.
Freedom of speech does not extend to private forums, however a good way for you to help the situation get further out of hand would be to have folks here become disgruntled and take it elsewhere where there is no moderation. Of course if they are like me the abhor and avoid social media but I doubt many are like me.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
I refer to this post at the top of the forum: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/898536/forum-rules#latest
Rules 4 and 7 quoted below seem germane. Reasonable people can disagree about the extent of the violations of those two rules, but my reading is that the mods have been very lenient, understanding the importance of the issue.
I agree that this is an important hobby topic and should be discussed. However, when no new developments come forward and the thread devolves into people making baseless comments about legalities, suppositions about which they have no fact, disparaging those involved and arguing amongst themselves, then I am going to shut it down. It has happened twice so far. As long as things stay civil here and the conversation continues to be productive, I am fine with the thread staying open.
Someone put together a pretty thorough detailed list of this entire affair for those who might have missed parts of this story.
https://www.cardlines.com/logan-pauls-fake-pokemon-case-a-comprehensive-guide/
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
Multiple parties on every end of this entire sordid, drawn out affair should get themselves a BUSINESS mentor with a clue. There are so many egregious actions from a business standpoint that they border on a complete lack of business acumen . To the point they are self destructive professionally ( and personally at times ) if not addressed.
One more thing- did a certain famous individuals criminal case where a memorabilia dealer was waylaid at a Las Vegas hotel room, with no law enforcement backup to help when things went south, not teach anyone, business owner or person, to meet with anyone else behind closed doors. Unless said CLOSED doors are at the FBI or District Attorneys / Personal Lawyers?
So much wrong, on so many levels . Head shakes don't do this one justice.
Wow and wow…. This box must have been screaming fake like a fake PSA case would be screaming to us. Good read. Thanks!
Nic
Guides Authored - Graded Card Scanning Guide PDF | History of the PSA Label PDF
Good post. this information definitely shows that Steve was way out of his depth when "authenticating" this case.
after watching the opening video multiple times I heard a very troubling statement made by steve. he mentioned that he did his due diligence on this case just like he does with his sports cases. He then went on to show us all exactly what his "due diligence" is. it amounts to looking at the seals and labels to see if they look original.
to me, that is absolutely negligent on a 3MM case. does he not realize there are art forgers out there for whom faking a cardboard case like this one is no problem at all? He didnt look into the provenance at all. that should be a huge part of any authentication. Good grief, all he had to do to raise huge red flags would be to scan the bar code and see it didnt match the product code. He was paid 5K to authenticate this case. it appears he spent about 5-10 minutes checking the tape and label and called it good.
this case was not authenticated, it was rubber-stamped. I think Steve knows that the vast majority of his authenticated cases, and boxes for that matter, will never be opened and his service not often verified.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Do you really believe what Steve showed you in that video is "exactly what his due diligence is"? You really think that's all he does to authenticate a case? Are you for real?
I watched two separate videos and heard from two ex-owners of the case said the authenticator x-ray'ed the case as part of the authentication process. BBCE doesn't use x-ray unless they are referring to a diff authenticator. If anyone who actually understand x-ray technology, x-ray goes thru paper materials and x-ray would just pass right thru them. What it would show are gaps between packs and no way to tell they are GIJoe or Pokemon packs.
I dont have to "believe" it. Those were his words, not mine. at the beginning of the video, he was explaining the reasons he thought the case was good. He also posted his process for authenticating sealed cases:
"Factory sealed cases can be processed quickly as all I need to do is verify that they are still originally sealed. They can then go straight to wrapping/shipping. However, if the case is not still factory sealed, please hold off on submitting. In this case, every pack in every box needs to be looked over."
it sure seems this is literally all BBCE does to authenticate "unopened" cases. $5k for that on the pokemon case.
I would imagine talented forgers will be getting more interested in "finding" unsealed cases to be authenticated after seeing how much some may go for.
really unfortunate.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I am neutral party in all this. I don't own a sealed case and I have never met Steve. But as a collector I would be awfully nervous if I owned a high end, top dollar sealed case right now. I am sure that this is not the very first fake or tampered case to be authenticated by BBCE but hopefully after all the negative exposure it will be the last.
My biggest concern is where does the hobby and BBCE go from here. In the back of mind, I also wondered about craig44's point about most of the BBCE product never being opened to be verified. I don't think there is anything inherently shady about that, it just shows you how solid BBCE's judgement is valued in the hobby. I think what makes this unique is that we all know Steve. Do any of us know who the grader was for the Gretzky Wagner?
I wouldn't want to be holding any BBCE wrapped Pokeman boxes or cases right now but I think the BBCE Sports Box market will be generally unaffected. I even think FASC boxes may increase in value since hobbyists will demand another level of security. I know FASC is not blockchain level security but compared to a Frankenstein loose box, FASC is as good as it's going to get for now.
Ironically I was about to send a 2018 Optic FB Collector Box case to BBCE for a wrap since I was planning to send it to auction and wanted to add a level of assurance for the bidders, Now I'm not sure if that adds any value and I'm wondering if I am better off selling boxes since I wouldn't want to be spending big money on any sealed case right now.
Lastly, I saw a post about BBCE starting modern authentication. Has this service actually started? Anyone else think that they may want to pause this for now?
What do you think the process is? I mean, he can basically look at the seal and the labeling. Why wouldn't we take him at his word?
I know some people love to pile on and revel in drama instead, but my confidence in Steve and BBCE is based on 25 years of dealing with them as the most reputable and reliable dealer in the hobby with a track record that has been proven again and again, many times over. As a vintage unopened collector, this episode wont change that one bit. If anyone is looking to unload any BBCE product at unwrapped/wholesale prices, PM me, please!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
modern authentication??? What is that? Using AI to authenticate wax?
How much does BBCE charge for wrapping cases? Is $5000 the cap?
now that we know the extent of Steves authentication process on unopened cases, would you still be comfortable purchasing future cases that are BBCE wrapped?
I wouldn't characterize this as an example of people reveling in drama. more like a giant case of incompetence/neglect.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Just in case someone doesn't visit the BBCE site. Anyone else see an issue in light of the Logan Case? I assume this is wrap over the factory wrap? Haven't seen a follow-up or pricing yet.
MODERN AUTHENTICATION COMING 2022!
Published by: Brett D. Arndt, 11/5/2021 9:59 am
Coming in 2022!! We are excited to announce that Baseball Card Exchange will be begin authenticating and wrapping modern boxes. It seems as though every day we have customers asking us to authenticate modern boxes in our Baseball Card Exchange shrink wrap. In the past, we did not wrap any box issued from a manufacturer with their own shrink wrap. This past summer we made the decision to move forward and expand our existing box authentication to include modern boxes. So, we ordered some new wrap… and waited... and waited. Yes, our new modern box wrap has been stuck on one of those cargo ships off the California coast for a couple months. Finally, yesterday, it was delivered. We are still hammering out the details, but there will be a least a few different options available. Please look for more specific details coming during the beginning of 2022. Most importantly, do not ship us any modern boxes at this time. Thank you, Rick.
I don't see a lot of piling on. Conversation seems to be pretty rational and I'm not sure anyone needs to carry Steve's water for him, repeatedly.
I agree that BBCE will be fine, but how can you watch this thing unfold and not have any concerns, at all, about his ability to authenticate a sealed case? I've learned quite a bit about the hobby these past 2 years - I never realized how easy it is for card doctors to get high end cards in slabs. I mean one card doctor trimmer hit 3 gem mint 86 Jordans on one sub? ? Would it really be that hard to find an authentic case with labels and fake a factory closure? Apparently not. These guys are GOOD at this stuff. The more we know the better.
Guess I don't see how avoiding the conversation, even if it involves your hobby buddy of 25 years, helps collectors going forward. As hobbyists though we sure like to stick our head in the sand and pretend this stuff doesn't exist. It's the reason guys like Moser and Block got away with trimming cards for decades, long time collectors knew this stuff was going on.
100%. You obviously havent been paying attention for the past three decades.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I agree that knowledge is power in this hobby and theres no question that a lot of information has been learned or come to light over the past decade, but my personal opinion is that after 3 threads here on this forum alone and thousands of posts on line, we have had this conversation and then some.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I sure have been paying attention. especially now that we know steves formula for "authenticating" sealed cases. I have been in this hobby for many decades and I very much dislike seeing people get taken for a ride.
do you truly believe that forging experts, knowing how cases are "authenticated" cannot replicate the process? I mean, they already have. right? Tape, staples and shipping labels? Forgers use period ink/paper to create historical documents relatively commonly.
Do you disagree that provenance should be a big part of the process? like it is for many other valuable collectibles?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I have an issue with it. It seems BBCE will be using their shrink wrap on top of the "factory" shrink wrap? if that is the case, all forgers need to do is replicate the "factory" shrink wrap. that will be a problem.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Fraud is an inherent part of the hobby, unfortunately, but no one person or entity is perfect and one mistake, even one of this magnitude, is not going to jeopardize the BBCE brand built over 30 years of superlative service and unparalleled integrity in an often sketchy part of the hobby, at least not as far as sports card collectors are concerned. We learn from our mistakes and I bet we see some changes implemented when it comes to case authentication in the future, too.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
You didnt address the provenance question?
This isnt BBCEs only mistake. there have been others and big ones. Remember all the star on top cellos from 9 or 10 years ago?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Provenance is always nice to have but not always possible to ascertain, either.
You missed my point, though. Steve will be the first to tell you that we have come a long way in the past decade when it comes to unopened authentication, too.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
To me... "MODERN AUTHENTICATION" is just another way to get revenue. May be BBCE will soon have a database for pop and stuffs so collectors would compete each other just like what PSA has been doing.
I wonder how the Collector Community would embrace a new step in the CASE / BOX Authentication process.
CASES - allow the Authenticator to open the case and randomly select a box and open it to verify the packs. Then re-seal everything and label it as an "Authenticated Sealed Case"
BOXES - Modern with factory shrink wrap - allow the Authenticator to remove the shrink wrap to review the packs. Then seal it and label as "Authenticated Factory Sealed Box"
Obviously, the cases/boxes are no longer original factory sealed -- but they were factory sealed and then authenticated as such.
I like the idea of opening a case to verify contents, wrapping each box individually as FASC and then placing the boxes back into the case and wrapping the case itself.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Unless there is a new non-destructive method to authenticate sealed cases, I think the case wrapping business is done. Once the case is ripped open, having each box FASC would make the most sense. I don’t know why you would reseal it again, it’s no longer in its original state.
I keep checking eBay and the BST forum here for the unloading of BBCE material and I’m not seeing the market flood I was hoping for.
Sealing as a CASE would maintain the original "Case Distribution/Collation" -- example like a "Big Hit" that comes "x" per case. Or something like that...
yes, please send me all your cases that you want to dump
as for the process, he is not going to tell you the whole process. why would he alert all the crooks on what to be sure to get right. this is common sense from any company that authenticates anything
I can see both options but I'd imagine some collectors would still like to own the case as a unit even if the boxes within have been individually wrapped as FASC.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
*
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Sure owning the whole case is great, I just don't think BBCE should reseal the case once the boxes are wrapped. For clarity, this is a hypothetical discussion about a service that doesn't exist yet. Nothing is being implied here.
well... he actually did tell us his process. both in writing and on video. in his own words, sealed cases can be "processed quickly" as he only needs to see that they are factory sealed. unfortunately, he can not tell if a case has been factory sealed.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
With modern there are many case hits. Unless you wrap the case then you could open until you get the hit and then combine FASC boxes to make a case with no hit.
I do not collect or care about Pokémon and unopened is a minuscule part of my collection - but wow did Rattle Pokémon do a great job of breaking this whole thing down. I bet he keeps digging until he traces it back to the originator (which he may have already done with the 1st Edition box writing he noticed). We could use a Rattle Sportscards! BODA does an incredible job too. Anyone who takes their time to protect those in the hobby they love have my utmost respect.
I get then modern case hit angle but this goes back to the question I raised earlier. After the Pokémon debacle, does BBCE wrapping a sealed modern case add any value? The case already has a factory seal and a product label. Before you could argue a BBCE wrap would add another level of security but I don’t think that is completely true for modern anymore.
What is the reason to wrap a modern case? I can see vintage cards for FASC but most modern cases already have each box factory wrapped. I had a Exquisite FB case wrapped, looking back I don’t think that was money well spent on my part.
May I ask how much did they charge for wrapping your FB case?
There is no reason to wrap a modern case. without looking at each pack, they have no idea if the case is original. Or if the original wrap is factory or counterfeit. the fakers are that good.
I think wrapping cases will be a thing of the past. just too easy to fake. with as sophisticated as trimming/repairing/counterfeiting has become in the hobby, it would not surprise me at all if, with an investment, someone doesnt acquire sealing equipment and raw materials to completely replicate vintage wax. If U.S. currency can be replicated, producing 56 topps wax wrappers would be easy.
BBCE has created a brand that people have become accustomed to. It has become customary to have cases/boxes wrapped.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I have no horse in this race. However I do find it odd that one entire (growing) Segment of the hobby with a ton of money at stake is all dependent on and orbits around the opinions of one gentleman at one company. What is the scam artists are more technologically sophisticated than he is? What if it turns out he’s not as proficient at spotting fakes as the market assumes he is?
Nothing I’ve seen really makes me think he is on the cutting edge of technology or information to stay ahead of the scammers furiously working behind the scenes to fool him. Seems he’s authenticating based on experience and instinct which I just don’t think will continue to cut it.
HOF SIGNED FOOTBALL RCS
I agree here. continuing to do what you have always done because it has worked in the past is not a recipe for success in a hobby space where the bad guys are continually getting better and improving at what they do.
there are other people in the unopened market that are at the same level of expertise as Steve. I would think Reed is just as qualified.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Thanks for the vote of confidence, but without some serious training, im not qualified. I obviously don't know everyone who collects or deals in unopened, but if Steve has a Madden score of 99, BBCE employee Rick and I might have the next highest scores at 97 or 98, if for any reason that we've seen more unopened than just about anyone else, and we've both been doing this for a couple decades.
That 1 or 2 point gap is the reason why I will never authenticate unopened for money. My ego can't handle getting something wrong or making a mistake. I'm extremely happy doing what I do best, buying collections. I guess I can't say never, but I don't think the money would be worth it, and I'm not ready to be the hobby's punching bag.
We have had almost every conversation 100 times. When the next thread pops up about crazy prices for unopened, that will be the 279 the past few years. But those with lots of that product will be keen to talk that one through.
If with all your experience you don’t feel you can consistently authenticate unopened, that is a huge tell.
Actually, I think it's a sign of great humility.
kevin