Why do grading companies slab dipped coins?
Farmer1961
Posts: 167 ✭✭✭
Over the years I have seen numerous coins slabbed as problem free that have been dipped one or more times. The coins usually have an ugly washed out look which IMHO should place them in a cleaned/details holder. Any thoughts on why some coins are slabbed with these problems?
2
Comments
One coin that comes to mind are 1916-D Mercury dimes. I've seen several over the years.
I’m not an expert, and we have many here. I think these coins get slabbed because they’re largely accepted by the market. The metal hasn’t been moved, so they feel fine giving a technical grade and then the market adjust the prices based on eye appeal.
Secondly, I think so many coins have been dipped throughout the years that there would be dreadfully few coins of certain types to give a grade to if a dip (even a poor one) precluded them from getting the full service. That point leads to the market acceptability, price adjustments, and the need to give a grade to dipped coins in order to satisfy paying customers.
The term is "market acceptable". There are numerous discussions of this on the forum.
This has been discussed about twice a year for the last two decades... Dipping, unless extensive and damaging, is considered market acceptable. Check out some of the threads - a lot of information is available. Cheers, RickO
There are a lot of ugly coins in and out of holders; can you imagine how badly the coin may have looked before being dipped? Harsh cleaning is the problem not dipping.
Artificially white......
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
@Farmer1961
Welcome back.
As stated above, there are numerous threads on this subject in regard to acceptance by TPG.
Do a search and enjoy the comments.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
Plus coins have been dipped for over a century...where do you draw the line? QDB has stated that most IHCs he has seen were dipped at some point, likely in old cyanide dips, so are those OK, but modern dips aren't. Never ending debate.
Never ending debates are our specialty.
Dipping was discussed and considered for inclusion in the PNG definition fo doctoring, so there are definitely proponents of excluding dipping and considering them not market acceptable.
At the end of the day, I think too many coins have been dipped and it would affect the coin market and dealers too much if it was included. It would mean all the slabbed dipped coins would be considered problem coins.
I wonder if any sticker would indicate "non-dipped", or "non-terminally dipped". If so, it might get some level of following.
I don't care for the dipped out looking certified coins. However, I do have a few in my collection.
I like old coins that look new.
"Why do grading companies slab dipped coins?"
Because people pay them to.
For circulated coins, I like that 'dirty' look or has a nice brown patina. Something that looks like a farmer, cattle rancher, miner. etc. handled the coin, or sat in something leather and endured the weather.
Agreed, if a circulated coin has nice even toning it can have very positive eye appeal. But once you get into coins with a lot of luster from AU into the Unc. grades the luster is a huge positive which you see better with professional conservation. I have had coins that graded AU58; but once dipped had stunning eye appeal and graded MS63.
Dipped vs. Non-dipped Barber Halves. The 1905 would likely be considered a fantastic coin by many here....I appreciate the "just minted" look actually, but originality will always get my vote. I do believe that dipping does slightly impair the luster of MS coins.
As is often the case, I’ll take the opposing view. However, my point does not defend coins that have been over dipped.
All of my coins eligible for a CAC have one, and most have been dipped at some point. However, apparently it was done gently enough to still merit CAC stickers. Additionally, a very high percentage of my coins also merited “+” grades from PCGS! The gentle dip allows full luster to be exhibited, with the coin looking just as its designer envisioned, and not hidden by skin. Typically, with a proper very gentle dip, the release of the underlying natural brilliant luster is GREATER than the level of brilliant luster showing before the coin was dipped.
I recognize most knowledgeable collectors prefer toned coins. However, there is a large but silent group that prefers their coins as I do, especially with 20th Century silver. I know this from the very competitive and aggressive bidding I often see on auction lots that are of interest to me.
Not that it matters, but in the art world, restoration that adds paint to multi-million dollar works of art to brighten colors to look like they did centuries ago is fully accepted. Every museum has them!
Here’s an example of one of my coins that looks almost as if it came off the press yesterday!
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
While not really related, the art restoration reference is interesting. I'm not sure there are many classical frescoes left that have the original brush strokes of the Master on it. Look how many layers they had to remove from the Sistine Chapel ceiling to find Michelangelo's original. Even then, they added paint to it themselves. And they also argued as to whether they had also removed some of Michelangelo's own "corrections" to the original surface.
Even in the coin realm, "curation" of ancient coins is widely accepted. There is probably no bronze and few silvers that have not been curated and almost all are straight graded. The presence of heavy patina and mild porosity is considered "original" and does not get a details grade.
There are some very fine lines (no pun intended) drawn on more modern coinage as to what constitutes "originality" and what requires "details" grading. I'm not sure we'll ever have a consensus. What's "market acceptable" will probably continue to evolve.
If you take a longer view of history, might it not be reasonable to treat the surface of a coin with a protective layer as is/was often done with paintings to prevent atmospheric contaminants from degrading the original?
While not “visibly” touching the coin surface, many of us use Intercept Shield technology to offer protection for our coins. Presumably their chemical molecules are touching and protecting our coin surfaces!
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Not a fan of dipped coins ... a blast white 150 year old silver coin look so unnatural to me. To each his own.
Dave
If the TPG's can identify "dipped out" coins, IMO they should be details graded as "cleaned".
Because hairlines are the real issue with cleaning - it alters and slices through the surface luster and can be seen under certain lighting and angles. Dipping does not result in hairlines and if done correctly with pure acetone (no perfumes or additives) it will not alter or scratch the surface - and if done well is not distinguishable and can remove PVC and other impurities without any damage or consequence to the coin surface.
Agree with the dipping comment, esp on any circulated coin, but a 150 year old silver coin can be blast white without any human intervention post mintage. Look at all the CC Morgans and my avatar was never dipped. I owned it for 58 years and it came from an original mint bag upon Treasury release in 1964. All depends on the environment.
But acetone has no affect on toning or luster (microscopic flow lines), since it doesn't react with the metals. This thread seems to be discussing chemical dips that remove toning, not acetone.
Also, a chemical dip isn't going to leave hair lines unless you wipe the coin. It will, however, remove metal from the coins surface, including the microscopic flow lines that cause luster. The chemically removed metal is what causes overdipped coins to have a dull, washed out appearance.
Hope this clarifies things
I'm thinking more along the lines of what the Canada Mint was doing to prevent milk spots.
I think certain coins can be improved with, "proper conservation". Choose the wrong coin and you might expose the problems with it unintentionally!
Thank you for the comments. I have seen some really nice coins body bagged or net graded that look way better than dipped slabbed coins. As stated the art industry does conservation work on paintings and it is accepted but it is the kiss of death with collectable coins. Perhaps if the coin is rare enough eventually it will be acceptable just like with artwork.
To each his own, but apparently your subjective opinion is different than the subjective opinions of the graders at PCGS and the team at CAC, but that’s OK.
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
True, dipping isn't so bad looking on mint state coins but when an AG-VF 1916-D dime is in any top grade holder to me it looks like vomit.
I like them all very nice, but I don’t like the wash out one’s. It’s up to the buyers to make that decision to buy it or not.
Hoard the keys.
Is it possible that this coin came fresh out of a roll someone had put away. There are 2,212 of them graded by PCGS in MS65 & 66.
Yes, it's possible, but I have no idea, as I bought it slabbed with the CAC.
That reminds me of a riddle - "What do you call a deer that has no eyes?"
No idea!
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Artificially white....
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
And many of us, while a minority (but a large minority) have that same negative feeling about tarnished coins (using @ricko's term). That's why most collectors and dealers recognize it's good for each collector to collect what they wish, and not be told, as eye appeal is subjective.
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
>
In one word, Beautiful.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
Market acceptability, in other words collectors have been convinced because it does not move metal around it is ok. When paying to get a coin graded or buying a graded coin my preference would be at least a mention on holder or details grade. It is what it is.
Al
Obviously, we don't know the past ownership of coins. I'm just saying that bright 100 year old coins such as yours shouldn't always be assumed to have been dipped. They may have come from a fresh to the market roll. I would agree that would most likely not be the case for 150 year old coins because of the way they were stored over that many years.
In a great many cases, it’s guesswork as to whether a coin has been dipped. If you’d like the grading companies to make note of it on the grading label, how sure would you want them to be that the coin had been dipped? 100%? 95%? 90%? Other?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
washing a car before selling it is different than sanding it. a dipped coin is acceptable in my opinion. JMO
While washing a car is different than sanding it, dipping a coin is different than just washing it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Continuing with the carwash metaphor... there's a difference between washing your car with soap and water to get the dirt off, and washing it with organic solvents. In the first instance, you'll get the dirt off... in the second instance you'll remove the dirt and a bit of the paint as well.
Paint = Luster
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i think acetone does not damage the PAINT as much as scrubbing with a brush with clorox. jmo.
i compare dipping coins to washing your hands, just getting just the concomitant off. agree to disagree. WAITING ON AN EXPERT TO CHIME IN.
As commonly used, the term “dipping” is not the same thing as washing or using acetone. Here’s a definition of dipping: “The definition of dipping is the immersion of a coin in a solution that contains acid for the purpose of stripping toning and metal from a coin’s surface so that the coin is brighter, whiter (for silver or nickel) and/or plainer afterward.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
so is that considered cleaning?
Why do grading companies slab coins with environmental damage in the form of tarnish?
I'm joking of course but my question makes as much sense as the OP's question. In the final analysis, if a coin is over-dipped to the point that the surfaces are dull and lifeless or if a coin is tarnished black to the point that it's terminal, the grading services will give it a details grade. The grading services pretty much conform to what's market acceptable.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Do the grading services pretty much conform to what’s market acceptable, or do hobbyists pretty much conform to what the grading services deem to be market acceptable? Actually, I think I’ll start a new thread, asking that question.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@winesteven said: While not “visibly” touching the coin surface, many of us use Intercept Shield technology to offer protection for our coins. Presumably their chemical molecules are touching and protecting our coin surfaces!
IS Technology is based on a "sacrificial" barrier between the coin and the atmosphere outside of the container. Unless you place a coin directly on the black material it will never come in contact with anything.