1964 Kennedy Half SMS
Peaceman1
Posts: 61 ✭
Hello,
I have this1964 Kennedy Half. I checked the usual marks and they are present. The finish is also present as well as the area between the tops of letters and inside of rim which on the SMS test coin was polished with identifying marks all around in this area that is not found on any other or even similar. The gap above the letters to the inside of the rim is consistent on all the graded examples with same identifying polishing marks on them.
There are very fine die cracks on graded coins seen in enlarged images like one on right side of eagles neck going through the star and on left a few that match under United like the one going through the Dot - rim to wing. I enlarged graded images and matched all the way around this coin to enlarged images of graded.
The finish is present like very very fine finish that appears that the planchets were perhaps sand blasted and dies polished providing a satiny look.
In any case it appears that I truly have found a 1964 SMS coin. I am posting images of my coin. Have a Blessed Day!
Best Answer
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MFeld
Posts: 13,518 ✭✭✭✭✭
Why did you start a second thread after this one? https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1068961/1964-kennedy-different-bold-scuffed-looking-sms#latest
The coin pictured in that thread is not an SMS example. It looks nothing like one.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
1
Answers
The only way to know for sure is to send it in for authentication.
Do you really have to ask? Lol
Not an SMS. Strictly bullion coin. It would be a waste of money to send a $9 coin in for a $50 slab.
It should look like this
Different Coin... The scuffed one I figured as much... just odd looking thing... I guess I don't fully understand these forums yet.... My apolagies... Just an old dude trying to figure out...
I knew it wasnt but so strange looking... It has a wierd finish on it...
This coin matches polishing marks and has finish... The letters are bolder and not grainy looking... some of images are very magnified and lighting I have sucks...
All the letters are pearly smooth not grainy, Under bright natural light the finish look same as this graded coin below...
Send it in. It is virtually impossible to find one "in the wild" as they only came as presentation sets through a single source.
This coin shows evidence of die polish.
Good chance the dies were in service for a while, not a SMS coin.
Not a single example that I’m aware of has surfaced, other than through a series of auctions from the 1990’s. Neither of the coins posted by @Peaceman1 is an exception to that pattern.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I plan on sending for sure. It appears to match as I went around entire coin matching every die crack and prominent line I could. They match. I was surprised as well.
May be a nice Business strike but no SMS.
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
Save your money. It’s not SMS
That will be throwing your money away.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I agree. My recollection is that none were ever found in the wild but I hedged my response because I might have missed one.
I actually got excited when I saw this, if this is the coin you have. To me It does have the same 4 pattern - and yes if you look it up the 1964 SMS coins have surfaced, not from circulation but from collector sets - and recently a graded set just sold at auction with a similar story - so in my opinion yes it is possible to come across one albeit highly unlikely! To be sure - you really need to get the die prints of the 64 to a level where you can compare actual details such as polishing lines and die marks - have a local coin guy help you. We would need more than these pics to make a determination. None of us have seen one!
Take care and welcome
And one more comment - it needs to be IDENTICAL to the one already graded by PCGS. You can see nice images online and in the red book - so def do that BEFORE you send it in
Cheers - I hope you got one!!
Even if dies are same is good enough for me... I have not seen another one in my years exactly with this look... I thought about polishing lines on obverse as well... Looking very close to some graded ones there is some fine lines on obverse that are in same area like under the nose from around G of god going upward... Also, many of these make up other characteristic marks and without them the coin wouldn't have those I dont think.
In any case I am going to send in with a note, maybe they at very least will note same dies similar to 1921 Vam 1H Satin Dies with Polishing Marks???
I am sure they will look at that since the penny dime and quarter are going to be along with it....
Contrary to what you wrote, some of us have “seen one” and in some cases, more than one.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The most obvious diagnostic is the "teardrop" of of the 4 cross. If yours does not have this then do not waste your money for authentication
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
If you are going to send other coins, may as well post pictures of those, too
Do you think they are all SMS?
It came in a snap open plastic set older... it started with the penny... the penny matches.. then dime, then quarter, and this.... All those have rims, marks, surfaces that match graded... ???? There has to be more to this... They didnt make a look alike set did they???
Contrary to what many people mistakenly believe, on its own, the presence of that “teardrop” does not serve as validation that a 1964 half dollar is an SMS example.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I see the words “SMS Die Marker” in one place
And
“Heritage” in another.
Reconciliation?
Have to step away... Ill be back in 30 min... I will post close images of each...
This Kennedy has the mark under the 4 by the way
While the teardrop might not be positive confirmation, isn't the absence of a teardrop negative confirmation?
I’m not certain. However, near the bottom of this CoinFacts page: https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1964-50c-sms/6844
“Ron Guth:
One of the interesting diagnostic features of the Specimen Strike 1964 Half Dollars is a small, raised defect that appears to hang from the crosslet of the 4. This defect has been seen on all examples except one.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Is the Specimen Strike 1964 Half Dollar the holy grail for Kennedy half collectors?
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
That's interesting. Of course, die damage could happen at any time. But so few were struck, it's interesting that there is one without the feature. It's as though the die was scratched or otherwise damaged after the first coin was made?????
I'm back... I will upload images soon as cloud gets them and I can access...
I'm not certain on the teardrop under the 4. The graded 69 is the one without it I believe. I just think that few were made and the cream of the crop was in these sets. I think more are out there and can be found. I will post image of dime with same exact polishing from the SMS Die but on a business planchet... The lines on reverse are easiest diagnostic...
I personally think the mark under the 4 is from a die crack. It looks different on about every graded one...
Strange thing on this kennedy I have.... It has the Special Surfaces... They were not created by the die alone... The planchets would have to be prepared a certain way.... Sand Blasted or similar to get the effect under lighting.. a sparkly look like the image of graded above... Without this.. the coin would be flat business strike looking... No shimmer... like taking the glitter out of the old blue metal flake paint for your old Schwinn... It would just be blue...
Looks like you have found a 1964 mint set that has been removed from the flat pack and put Into a snap holder.
I can with 100% certainty tell you the 1964 Lincoln posted is NOT a SMS coin.
Mr. Feld is one of the top people in numismatics and has handled multiple 1964 SMS coins... he is saying your coins are NOT SMS... I would believe him. Save your money.
Be well
J
Lincoln...
Accidently uploaded wrong lincoln images..
This one definitely is SMS...
This nickel has a same finish, not checked but polishing and the surface polishing is there..
This Dime has same polishing but not on Square Rim planchet... Matches the SMS dies...
So is it SMS test or is it SMS Dies?? Good question...
Under bright light it looks crazy polished like one on Heritage or maybe it was PCGS..
In any case it is not on correct planchet...
Correct planchet...
QUARTER....
You can't argue with a delusion.
Lincoln I posted die markers steps, and in O of God not to mention same exact lines as below graded coin...
Sorry but those are not SMS coins.
The quarter you are showing has a die crack at the bottom of the bust.
This would indicate the die was close to the end of its life, an old cracked die would not be used for SMS coins.
If by chance they did use an old cracked die all the coins would have the crack and none of the examples I was able to find show that. This is one example for you on one coin it's up to you to research your others.
You can chose to do more research before you spend your money or send them for grading and pay a little tuition.
Graded Dimes...
Like water off a duck's back...
Do you have any links to this information? I've been following the sms sets for years and haven't been able to come up with any that surfaced from any other source than the Eva Adams coins. I must have missed this!
I think it's decision time for you @Peaceman1 . No need to keep posting pics. Send them for authentication
There is an overwhelming consensus that you do not have a 1964 SMS set. You do not have the provenance. ALL were found in the estate of A former mint director and acquired by a prominent dealer (Merkin) in the late 80s. If I recall correctly ALL were later authenticated by a TPG. As far as I know, NO other examples have ever been found (corrections welcomed and encouraged). You even have an expert numismatist, with a high level of credibility, who has personally handled these coins, telling you it's not an SMS.
Please post the results when you send them in
@Peaceman1 .... Welcome aboard.... Please return to THIS thread when you get your results from PCGS and let us know. Cheers, RickO