Sorry for your loss, hopefully the coin will show up somewhere in that slab and the case will be solved.
FWIW check out informed delivery at the USPS site. They do in fact scan a photo of all mail that will be delivered to you daily and send you a email with that info. I'm not sure if every scan takes a picture but they at least get a picture of what will be delivered
it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide
Does PCGS send ALL packages of coins they have graded back to the submitter by registered insured mail? I didn't ask about this when I recently signed up for a Gold membership after not being a member with submission privileges for the last few years.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Picked up a registered package a week ago from another grading company at my PO. The clerk handed it to me and said here is your precious metal sir! Box had no reference to coins or PM on it.
First time that’s ever happened. It was the PO Box clerk so maybe she got some reference from my past mail. Just kinda shocked me.
Sorry to hear of the loss. When I have shipped gold coins, I used registered mail. To me, the added security of the process is valuable and not cost prohibitive. Cheers, RickO
@bigjpst said:
Picked up a registered package a week ago from another grading company at my PO. The clerk handed it to me and said here is your precious metal sir! Box had no reference to coins or PM on it.
First time that’s ever happened. It was the PO Box clerk so maybe she got some reference from my past mail. Just kinda shocked me.
Did you ask her how she knew what was in the package? I wonder if they x-rayed it.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@ricko said:
Sorry to hear of the loss. When I have shipped gold coins, I used registered mail. To me, the added security of the process is valuable and not cost prohibitive. Cheers, RickO
As pointed out earlier in this thread, registered mail is actually cheaper than insured mail above a certain dollar amount. What makes registered mail so safe is each postal person that gets a registered package has to sign for it so there is a signature chain of custody. If you don't get your package, the last person who signed for it has some explaining to do to the postal inspector. It may take longer but it is much safer. When the famous Hope Diamond was sent to the Smithsonian Institute, they did a study to determine the safest way to send it and they determined registered mail was the best option.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
For a USPS claim, you will have to prove "fair market value" before the mailing date.
Additionally, you will have to convince them that the coin has "numismatic value". If they consider it to be "bullion", the maximum indemnity on non-registered mail is $15.00.
@PerryHall said:
I was the recipient of this empty box. I found it my mail box like it's pictured in the first post, The cut looks like it was made with a sharp knife or box cutter. After the coin was removed, the thief who had to be a postal employee taped up the box with clear packing tape. Some of the tape wrapped around to the front corner of the box. The postal supervisor said that when they scan the tracking number, a picture is automatically taken of the front of the box. The picture from their scan when it first arrived at my post office showed this extra tape from resealing the cut so the postal supervisor concluded that it must have happened before it arrived at the post office. The $40.50 postage/insurance sticker on such a small box (see the above pic) may have tipped off the thief that something valuable was inside. This is a good example of why it's important to fully insure your packages and get tracking and signature confirmation. This package had a "signature required" label and I never signed for it. The postal supervisor told me they are now requiring the recipient to sign for their packages so whoever delivered it is going to get a lecture from this supervisor. Stay tuned.
While REGISTERED mail is slower, you will find it cheaper to send a box like this registered mail with the same amount of insurance coverage. Package has a better chance of arriving, costs less to send and has signature sign off along its way to the recipient.
I mailed someone a coin and the postal clerk explained that registered would actually be cheaper than insured. He even calculated both prices and registered was indeed cheaper although slower. I had always assumed that registered was always more expensive but that isn't always the case.
Yup, I was going to mail a package a while ago and I was going to send it priority mail, but when I added insurance it was really expensive. The down side is that registered mail I.e. from Ohio to California can add 10 to 14 days for it to arrive. The upside is $15-$20 cheaper. It’s a no brainer.
@Coinscratch said:
It’s kinda odd the delivery person didn’t hang around for a signature. Plus, if the thief was at Perry’s PO he could have cut and taped the box before taking the scan/picture.
I am going to call BS on photos being taken at the PO upon it receiving the package. That has never happened at the post offices I use. What do they do with this photo? I would ask to see the photo, if such a thing exists.
The postal supervisor scanned the bar code on my package and the picture came up on his computer screen. I don't know if the bar code reader has a built-in camera or if it's separate process. I lost a package a few months ago and my letter carrier told me that every time a package is scanned a picture is taken and the GPS location of the package is recorded.
@Jeffnlu said:
You'd think there would be cameras throughout the process in the USPS facilities.
I believe there was a time when it was believed that a secure job and retirement was enough to keep the workers honest. No need for cameras watching every move. Clearly that is changing. But camera systems have blind spots and usually the people who work places with cameras know where the lapses are. Even the honest ones.
Im sure the vast majority of the postal workers are honest, but the few that aren’t can cause a whole lot of headache.
@mr1874 said: Does PCGS send ALL packages of coins they have graded back to the submitter by registered insured mail? I didn't ask about this when I recently signed up for a Gold membership after not being a member with submission privileges for the last few years.
"PCGS returns all orders Priority, Express or Registered Mail (based upon the declared value). If you choose to have your submissions returned via FedEx or USPS Express Mail Services, you must have your own account with FedEx or USPS and you are responsible for your own insurance. A $2 fee per order is required if you choose to use your own shipping account." Source; Section = "Shipping"; Question = "What carrier will PCGS utilize to return my orders upon completion?"
@bigjpst said:
Picked up a registered package a week ago from another grading company at my PO. The clerk handed it to me and said here is your precious metal sir! Box had no reference to coins or PM on it.
First time that’s ever happened. It was the PO Box clerk so maybe she got some reference from my past mail. Just kinda shocked me.
Even if she did know somehow, that seems like a really dumb thing for her to say.
Sorry to hear of your loss. I hope you get your money back. If it was insured by the post office I hope you have good receipts and proof of value. They lost my package for 59 days and denied my claim because I did not have "proof of value". Even though I had a paid invoice, a statement from a Heritage VP on $ value, and a canceled check.
My story did end well when they finally delivered it, but I have no confidence in the PO and will not insure with them again.
I don't get this. What are they looking for if an invoice, a letter from the seller, and a check are not sufficient? Are they asking for some proof that you actually placed said item in the package?
And, USPS does not offer their definition of "bullion."
Excellent point.
The USPS does not clearly define "bullion". Based on prior threads on this subject, it seems that each claimant has to make their own case.
In this situation, I would humbly suggest including the following with any claim in an effort to demonstrate that the item was "numismatic":
1) TPG Classification
PCGS is undoubtedly an authority on coins. Their extensive coin classification system includes a category for "bullion". The "St. Gaudens $20" is NOT included in this category. Instead, it is categorized as a "Gold Coin". Source
2) Pricing
The current "NGC Price Guide Value" for this coin is $2,200.00 (as of 12/31/21). Link
The current "melt value" of this coin is $1,765.04 (as of 12/31/21). Link
A premium of $434.96, or 24.6%, suggests that this coin has "numismatic value", and is not simply "bullion".
Note - Historic price guide values are available at the NGC website. Starting at the last link above, 'left click' (LC) "PRICE GUIDE" (left of coin image). Then LC the MS-63 price to display a line graph of historic data.
@Pnies20 said:
We need to mail a box back and forth to each other like this to see who’s doing it 😈
tbh. it isn't a bad idea. i've watched a lot of his/other glitter bomb/misc packages and while i think there could be a possible law suit from stuff spewing out of a package, even for stolen ones, the live camera feed to see whom is opening packages is great. even if the person on camera pretty sure when using an iphone, one can enable find my phone or some gps app to pin the precision route/location(s). (ive also watched videos of people doing this type of stuff in teams for these creative phone and pc scammers. pretty amazing.
for people shipping some big buck boxes, getting something like this set up is really not cost prohibitive at all. buy up some cheap iphone 4/5 and ship a package with 40-60 insurance cost showing with perhaps some non-coin metal gently banging around on the inside like a dinner bell to a dog t entice the would-be thieves. when you have money, talent, creativity and desire, one can have a LOT of fun. ship em back n forth just a few times a month. perhaps a network of say 3-5 people. all each one has to do is get a new label for the package and send it to the next person. (the post office could and hopefully does something like that with some sort of electronic tracking device to narrow down where the would-be thieves are operating from) ok i'll let it go here.
@PerryHall said:
I mailed someone a coin and the postal clerk explained that registered would actually be cheaper than insured. He even calculated both prices and registered was indeed cheaper although slower. I had always assumed that registered was always more expensive but that isn't always the case.
i've ordered coins from some of the big boys in the industry and iirc, i/we were required to do the double box method BUT the immense benefit was, with their insurance plan, we were able to use the overnight boxes cost effectively. ( i don't have a plan currently as i'm not doing much numismatically but some of you guys REALLY need to get together and share info about this. save money, ship faster and ship safer, a real no-brainer imo)
@bigjpst said:
Picked up a registered package a week ago from another grading company at my PO. The clerk handed it to me and said here is your precious metal sir! Box had no reference to coins or PM on it.
First time that’s ever happened. It was the PO Box clerk so maybe she got some reference from my past mail. Just kinda shocked me.
Even if she did know somehow, that seems like a really dumb thing for her to say.
Agree, especially if she said it out loud and there were other postal patrons within ear shot.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
My mailman just came by the house. He confirmed that when the tracking is scanned when it first arrives at the post office, the package is also photographed. He said because of all the security cameras in the post office the theft probably took place while the package was in transit. I guess someone in the truck had some free time and decided to go on a treasure hunt.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I don't get this. What are they looking for if an invoice, a letter from the seller, and a check are not sufficient? Are they asking for some proof that you actually placed said item in the package?
I don't get it either. If you insure something for X dollars, they should pay you X dollars. Otherwise, what is the point of stating a value?
Sorry to hear of your loss. I hope you get your money back. If it was insured by the post office I hope you have good receipts and proof of value. They lost my package for 59 days and denied my claim because I did not have "proof of value". Even though I had a paid invoice, a statement from a Heritage VP on $ value, and a canceled check.
My story did end well when they finally delivered it, but I have no confidence in the PO and will not insure with them again.
I don't get this. What are they looking for if an invoice, a letter from the seller, and a check are not sufficient? Are they asking for some proof that you actually placed said item in the package?
I am not, repeat NOT, defending the USPS policy regarding fair market value determination for coins of numismatic value. That said, what they will accept as "proof of value" is clearly articulated in the USPS DMM.
"For stamps and coins of philatelic or numismatic value; the fair market value is determined by a recognized stamp or coin dealer or current coin and stamp collectors’ newsletters and trade papers. The date of the fair market value determination must be current and prior to the mailing date."
Source: USPS DMM Section 609, Sub-Section 4.1.g
Acceptable forms of "proof" do not include invoices, or cancelled checks. Cannot speak to the statement from Heritage, because I do not have all of the details. Maybe it was rejected because it was not dated prior to the mailing date.
Do you think packages are x-rayed before they leave shipper’s post office? There is a list of things you cannot mail and that is a voluntary declaration. They need to make sure there is nothing explosive or liquid before it goes on the truck/plane. Wondering if an X-ray could give away contents.
The Philadelphia Mint: making coins since 1792. We make money by making money. Now in our 225th year thanks to no competition.
I don't get this. What are they looking for if an invoice, a letter from the seller, and a check are not sufficient? Are they asking for some proof that you actually placed said item in the package?
I am not, repeat NOT, defending the USPS policy regarding fair market value determination for coins of numismatic value. That said, what they will accept as "proof of value" is clearly articulated in the USPS DMM.
"For stamps and coins of philatelic or numismatic value; the fair market value is determined by a recognized stamp or coin dealer or current coin and stamp collectors’ newsletters and trade papers. The date of the fair market value determination must be current and prior to the mailing date."
Source: USPS DMM Section 609, Sub-Section 4.1.g
Acceptable forms of "proof" do not include invoices, or cancelled checks. Cannot speak to the statement from Heritage, because I do not have all of the details. Maybe it was rejected because it was not dated prior to the mailing date.
"All of the details" are the statement from Heritage was from a form member here. A current dated email, referencing the specific coin at a stated value, with a phone number and an offer to contact if there were any questions. This was rejected on my second appeal.
I think the problem was the check. I believe they are accustom to electronic money transfers, like ebay.
I don't get this. What are they looking for if an invoice, a letter from the seller, and a check are not sufficient? Are they asking for some proof that you actually placed said item in the package?
I am not, repeat NOT, defending the USPS policy regarding fair market value determination for coins of numismatic value. That said, what they will accept as "proof of value" is clearly articulated in the USPS DMM.
"For stamps and coins of philatelic or numismatic value; the fair market value is determined by a recognized stamp or coin dealer or current coin and stamp collectors’ newsletters and trade papers. The date of the fair market value determination must be current and prior to the mailing date."
Source: USPS DMM Section 609, Sub-Section 4.1.g
Acceptable forms of "proof" do not include invoices, or cancelled checks. Cannot speak to the statement from Heritage, because I do not have all of the details. Maybe it was rejected because it was not dated prior to the mailing date.
"All of the details" are the statement from Heritage was from a form member here. A current dated email, referencing the specific coin at a stated value, with a phone number and an offer to contact if there were any questions. This was rejected on my second appeal.
I think the problem was the check. I believe they are accustom to electronic money transfers, like ebay.
It sounds like they are looking for an excuse to not pay a legitimate insurance claim.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
It sounds like they are looking for an excuse to not pay a legitimate insurance claim.
That is my opinion also. Fortunately, after 59 days it was delivered. Otherwise, I would be out a lot of money.
I plan to use private insurance for all other mailings.
So if you pay, say $2,000 for a coin and the book value is $3,000, by their logic you could insure it for $3,000 and if it coincides with the documents they accept? I don’t understand how an invoice doesn’t show proof of value.
What other insurance avenues are there for average collectors to use? USPS sounds shady with this.
Sorry to hear of your loss. I hope you get your money back. If it was insured by the post office I hope you have good receipts and proof of value. They lost my package for 59 days and denied my claim because I did not have "proof of value". Even though I had a paid invoice, a statement from a Heritage VP on $ value, and a canceled check.
My story did end well when they finally delivered it, but I have no confidence in the PO and will not insure with them again.
I don't get this. What are they looking for if an invoice, a letter from the seller, and a check are not sufficient? Are they asking for some proof that you actually placed said item in the package?
I am not, repeat NOT, defending the USPS policy regarding fair market value determination for coins of numismatic value. That said, what they will accept as "proof of value" is clearly articulated in the USPS DMM.
"For stamps and coins of philatelic or numismatic value; the fair market value is determined by a recognized stamp or coin dealer or current coin and stamp collectors’ newsletters and trade papers. The date of the fair market value determination must be current and prior to the mailing date."
Source: USPS DMM Section 609, Sub-Section 4.1.g
Acceptable forms of "proof" do not include invoices, or cancelled checks. Cannot speak to the statement from Heritage, because I do not have all of the details. Maybe it was rejected because it was not dated prior to the mailing date.
Thanks for the info. Given the statement "coin and stamp collectors’ newsletters and trade papers" I suspect this hasn't been revised since the 1980's. The only such document I can envision is last month's CDN. Better make sure you have the CAC version if that applies. And presumably they will reimburse only the lower of the amount of the insurance or the CDN value.
The statement "by a recognized stamp or coin dealer ... prior to the mailing date" makes no practical sense to me at all. What would this be? A formal appraisal letter issued just prior to mailing?
I've always felt strange insuring a small package for a high dollar amount but what choice do you have? One time a female postal worker guessed as to what was in the box, I said high end, overclocked, gaming video card. Best of luck to both parties.
I’m a small fish so I rarely have to think about this kind of stuff but let’s just say for a moment that I found the 69 doubled die Lincoln. And since were pretending, mint state 68 red.
There’s no way in hell that things going to the post office. I would be taking a flight to drop it off in person then probably spend a few days in that dreadful state while my express order
was completed.
For me I think my comfort level with the post office would begin to get uncomfortable somewhere around 3 to 5000.
@Coinscratch said:
I’m a small fish so I rarely have to think about this kind of stuff but let’s just say for a moment that I found the 69 doubled die Lincoln. And since were pretending, mint state 68 red.
There’s no way in hell that things going to the post office. I would be taking a flight to drop it off in person then probably spend a few days in that dreadful state while my express order
was completed.
For me I think my comfort level with the post office would begin to get uncomfortable somewhere around 3 to 5000.
Ha! You just have to learn how to have intestinal fortitude! Heck, I have had a large box with 5 Carrera 1/24 slot cars coming from Germany that had $6,000 worth inside the box. It takes anywhere from 4 to 8 weeks to get from there to my door. It is shipped via both postal systems. Tracking sometimes goes blind just like the space crafts coming back to earth go through an area with no communication.
@CoinHoarder said:
Cut and pasted from the internet:
USPS DOES NOT INSURE COINS.
@Coinscratch said:
I’m a small fish so I rarely have to think about this kind of stuff but let’s just say for a moment that I found the 69 doubled die Lincoln. And since were pretending, mint state 68 red.
There’s no way in hell that things going to the post office. I would be taking a flight to drop it off in person then probably spend a few days in that dreadful state while my express order
was completed.
For me I think my comfort level with the post office would begin to get uncomfortable somewhere around 3 to 5000.
I believe that an “express order” might take more than “a few days”. But that’s OK, as based on its’ value, the coin should be submitted under the faster and more costly “Rarities” service level.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@PerryHall said:
My mailman just came by the house. He confirmed that when the tracking is scanned when it first arrives at the post office, the package is also photographed. He said because of all the security cameras in the post office the theft probably took place while the package was in transit. I guess someone in the truck had some free time and decided to go on a treasure hunt.
Really feel bad for the OP and had posted earlier about my harrowing experience while sending five PAMP Suisse bars (insured for 10k) to Texas. It got stuck in the Charlotte center for a few days before reaching Houston, but the mailman never went to deliver it nor leave any note even though the recipient was very much at home throughout the day.
When the recipient went to collect it from the post office, they could not find the package apparently. Called their customer service number (1-800-275-8777) and after talking to the machines for a whie, got put on hold for almost half an hour with country music.
Got a great service rep to whom I explained everything and within a few minutes there was a call from the supervisor of the post office where they couldn't track the package, giving me cock and bull stories that it was in another bin blah blah blah.
Had ensured that the bars were wrapped in aluminium foil (sort of looked like a giant candy bar) and multiple layers of padded envelopes within a box with loads of tape and then finally into a bigger padded envelope from my local post office where the lady behind the counter put additional tape securing it very nicely.
Heaved a huge sigh of relief when the young mother (recipient) got the package eventually because last year I lost two slabbed coins from inside of a package from FL with a total of nine slabs. The supervisor at our local post office was extremely kind to go out of her way to make sure that their insurance refund for my loss.
Have also got three ASE in cardboard wrap inserted into my torn packet containing uncircuated coin set. Guess the franking machines relly mess up the envelopes.
Anyways, all this has left me a bit more cautious since employee retention is a big issue currently.
I have quite a few coins that needs to be sent out for grading and was hoping I could get them across to our hosts at a coin show so as to avoid all this hassle.
@CoinHoarder said:
Cut and pasted from the internet:
USPS DOES NOT INSURE COINS.
@Coinscratch said:
I’m a small fish so I rarely have to think about this kind of stuff but let’s just say for a moment that I found the 69 doubled die Lincoln. And since were pretending, mint state 68 red.
There’s no way in hell that things going to the post office. I would be taking a flight to drop it off in person then probably spend a few days in that dreadful state while my express order
was completed.
For me I think my comfort level with the post office would begin to get uncomfortable somewhere around 3 to 5000.
I believe that an “express order” might take more than “a few days”. But that’s OK, as based on its’ value, the coin should be submitted under the faster and more costly “Rarities” service level.😉
Ooooh. Makes sense. I thought express order was two or three days but if they got something quicker I’m down with that. The “Rarities” line is probably real short most of the time, as compared to the regular submission line.
I think Richard Pryor said it best, if you had a choice of how to go: Either being hit by a bus or getting some :-) I don’t know about you but I’d be in that long MFing line.
Does the post office x-ray packages as a matter of routine? If so, wrapping the slab in aluminum foil as suggested above sounds like a good idea.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@PerryHall said: Does the post office x-ray packages as a matter of routine? If so, wrapping the slab in aluminum foil as suggested above sounds like a good idea.
"Is Mail X-Rayed?
Some of the mail that is sent through the United States Postal Service will pass through an X-Ray machine. There are no specific guidelines as to what may or may not be x-rayed, though mail sent to or through larger cities is likely to pass through an X-Ray machine.
If you have additional questions about X-Raying of items, contact your local Post Office.
Note: Marking a mailpiece "Do Not X-Ray" will not forgo the X-Raying of a mailpiece, and may result in the item being considered suspicious." Source
PCGS sends registered if over certain dollar value. Priority to 5k, and over that express to a certain point, (check with them for exact $ value. To this day I have been fortunate not to have a box of coins coming back from the TPG get heisted/lost.
NGC and CAC always send mine back registered becuase I use their standard process. Can be a bit slow at times.
Not really sold any higher dollar value coins via ebay in a long while due to increase chance for theft, I usually GC em or sell then some other way.
Somebody had made the statement about the old time postal workers were kept in check for fear of losing job chancing a theft. its definitely not that way any more, they use a lot of part timers, temp help and other less than best folks in places like distribution centers, mail handling, etc.
The other week , one of my good customers wanted me to send a box of silver dollars to him instead of refinery. I can drop them off at ref, I have to ship him his. He lives about 2 hr away. I asked him if I could meet somewhere in his vicinity, but he had been too busy, so I addressed the label making it look like it was automobile parts inside, as it was heavy for the size. It made it thankfully.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
This time of year is when a majority of the stealing at the post office is happening. They hire temporary and seasonal workers who may not be of the highest quality. Most of the shenanigans take place at the mail plant and not the local post office. A mail carrier would have to be a idiot to steal anything out of a box while on his route as pictures are taken of every package before being sorted. No xray machines at the local post office but there are xray machines at the mail plants and major post offices like the ones located at a airport.
Comments
Sorry for your loss, hopefully the coin will show up somewhere in that slab and the case will be solved.
FWIW check out informed delivery at the USPS site. They do in fact scan a photo of all mail that will be delivered to you daily and send you a email with that info. I'm not sure if every scan takes a picture but they at least get a picture of what will be delivered
it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide
Does PCGS send ALL packages of coins they have graded back to the submitter by registered insured mail? I didn't ask about this when I recently signed up for a Gold membership after not being a member with submission privileges for the last few years.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I hate thieves. I hope they all go to hell. This is how I received a package containing a precious family heirloom a few months ago...
inner envelope containing heirloom
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Picked up a registered package a week ago from another grading company at my PO. The clerk handed it to me and said here is your precious metal sir! Box had no reference to coins or PM on it.
First time that’s ever happened. It was the PO Box clerk so maybe she got some reference from my past mail. Just kinda shocked me.
My Ebay Store
Sorry to hear of the loss. When I have shipped gold coins, I used registered mail. To me, the added security of the process is valuable and not cost prohibitive. Cheers, RickO
Did you ask her how she knew what was in the package? I wonder if they x-rayed it.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
As pointed out earlier in this thread, registered mail is actually cheaper than insured mail above a certain dollar amount. What makes registered mail so safe is each postal person that gets a registered package has to sign for it so there is a signature chain of custody. If you don't get your package, the last person who signed for it has some explaining to do to the postal inspector. It may take longer but it is much safer. When the famous Hope Diamond was sent to the Smithsonian Institute, they did a study to determine the safest way to send it and they determined registered mail was the best option.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
And, USPS does not offer their definition of "bullion."
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
Sad situation. I’ve dealt with both buyer and seller this year - both honest and good people!
Yup, I was going to mail a package a while ago and I was going to send it priority mail, but when I added insurance it was really expensive. The down side is that registered mail I.e. from Ohio to California can add 10 to 14 days for it to arrive. The upside is $15-$20 cheaper. It’s a no brainer.
You'd think there would be cameras throughout the process in the USPS facilities.
Next time I am at the PO I will ask.
I believe there was a time when it was believed that a secure job and retirement was enough to keep the workers honest. No need for cameras watching every move. Clearly that is changing. But camera systems have blind spots and usually the people who work places with cameras know where the lapses are. Even the honest ones.
Im sure the vast majority of the postal workers are honest, but the few that aren’t can cause a whole lot of headache.
My Ebay Store
Since this happened around the holidays, could be a part time or seasonal postal worker that did it.
"PCGS returns all orders Priority, Express or Registered Mail (based upon the declared value). If you choose to have your submissions returned via FedEx or USPS Express Mail Services, you must have your own account with FedEx or USPS and you are responsible for your own insurance. A $2 fee per order is required if you choose to use your own shipping account."
Source; Section = "Shipping"; Question = "What carrier will PCGS utilize to return my orders upon completion?"
Even if she did know somehow, that seems like a really dumb thing for her to say.
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
I don't get this. What are they looking for if an invoice, a letter from the seller, and a check are not sufficient? Are they asking for some proof that you actually placed said item in the package?
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
If it were sent Registered they would know who did it.
Excellent point.
The USPS does not clearly define "bullion". Based on prior threads on this subject, it seems that each claimant has to make their own case.
In this situation, I would humbly suggest including the following with any claim in an effort to demonstrate that the item was "numismatic":
1) TPG Classification
PCGS is undoubtedly an authority on coins. Their extensive coin classification system includes a category for "bullion". The "St. Gaudens $20" is NOT included in this category. Instead, it is categorized as a "Gold Coin".
Source
2) Pricing
The current "NGC Price Guide Value" for this coin is $2,200.00 (as of 12/31/21). Link
The current "melt value" of this coin is $1,765.04 (as of 12/31/21). Link
A premium of $434.96, or 24.6%, suggests that this coin has "numismatic value", and is not simply "bullion".
Note - Historic price guide values are available at the NGC website. Starting at the last link above, 'left click' (LC) "PRICE GUIDE" (left of coin image). Then LC the MS-63 price to display a line graph of historic data.
tbh. it isn't a bad idea. i've watched a lot of his/other glitter bomb/misc packages and while i think there could be a possible law suit from stuff spewing out of a package, even for stolen ones, the live camera feed to see whom is opening packages is great. even if the person on camera pretty sure when using an iphone, one can enable find my phone or some gps app to pin the precision route/location(s). (ive also watched videos of people doing this type of stuff in teams for these creative phone and pc scammers. pretty amazing.
for people shipping some big buck boxes, getting something like this set up is really not cost prohibitive at all. buy up some cheap iphone 4/5 and ship a package with 40-60 insurance cost showing with perhaps some non-coin metal gently banging around on the inside like a dinner bell to a dog t entice the would-be thieves. when you have money, talent, creativity and desire, one can have a LOT of fun. ship em back n forth just a few times a month. perhaps a network of say 3-5 people. all each one has to do is get a new label for the package and send it to the next person. (the post office could and hopefully does something like that with some sort of electronic tracking device to narrow down where the would-be thieves are operating from) ok i'll let it go here.
i've ordered coins from some of the big boys in the industry and iirc, i/we were required to do the double box method BUT the immense benefit was, with their insurance plan, we were able to use the overnight boxes cost effectively. ( i don't have a plan currently as i'm not doing much numismatically but some of you guys REALLY need to get together and share info about this. save money, ship faster and ship safer, a real no-brainer imo)
Agree, especially if she said it out loud and there were other postal patrons within ear shot.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
My mailman just came by the house. He confirmed that when the tracking is scanned when it first arrives at the post office, the package is also photographed. He said because of all the security cameras in the post office the theft probably took place while the package was in transit. I guess someone in the truck had some free time and decided to go on a treasure hunt.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I don't get it either. If you insure something for X dollars, they should pay you X dollars. Otherwise, what is the point of stating a value?
I am not, repeat NOT, defending the USPS policy regarding fair market value determination for coins of numismatic value. That said, what they will accept as "proof of value" is clearly articulated in the USPS DMM.
"For stamps and coins of philatelic or numismatic value; the fair market value is determined by a recognized stamp or coin dealer or current coin and stamp collectors’ newsletters and trade papers. The date of the fair market value determination must be current and prior to the mailing date."
Source: USPS DMM Section 609, Sub-Section 4.1.g
Acceptable forms of "proof" do not include invoices, or cancelled checks. Cannot speak to the statement from Heritage, because I do not have all of the details. Maybe it was rejected because it was not dated prior to the mailing date.
Do you think packages are x-rayed before they leave shipper’s post office? There is a list of things you cannot mail and that is a voluntary declaration. They need to make sure there is nothing explosive or liquid before it goes on the truck/plane. Wondering if an X-ray could give away contents.
"All of the details" are the statement from Heritage was from a form member here. A current dated email, referencing the specific coin at a stated value, with a phone number and an offer to contact if there were any questions. This was rejected on my second appeal.
I think the problem was the check. I believe they are accustom to electronic money transfers, like ebay.
It sounds like they are looking for an excuse to not pay a legitimate insurance claim.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
That is my opinion also. Fortunately, after 59 days it was delivered. Otherwise, I would be out a lot of money.
I plan to use private insurance for all other mailings.
So if you pay, say $2,000 for a coin and the book value is $3,000, by their logic you could insure it for $3,000 and if it coincides with the documents they accept? I don’t understand how an invoice doesn’t show proof of value.
What other insurance avenues are there for average collectors to use? USPS sounds shady with this.
Thanks for the info. Given the statement "coin and stamp collectors’ newsletters and trade papers" I suspect this hasn't been revised since the 1980's. The only such document I can envision is last month's CDN. Better make sure you have the CAC version if that applies. And presumably they will reimburse only the lower of the amount of the insurance or the CDN value.
The statement "by a recognized stamp or coin dealer ... prior to the mailing date" makes no practical sense to me at all. What would this be? A formal appraisal letter issued just prior to mailing?
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
Another PO scam.. scan the package delivered ,steal the box right in post station ..mailman on route never given coin to deliver
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
I've always felt strange insuring a small package for a high dollar amount but what choice do you have? One time a female postal worker guessed as to what was in the box, I said high end, overclocked, gaming video card. Best of luck to both parties.
I’m a small fish so I rarely have to think about this kind of stuff but let’s just say for a moment that I found the 69 doubled die Lincoln. And since were pretending, mint state 68 red.
There’s no way in hell that things going to the post office. I would be taking a flight to drop it off in person then probably spend a few days in that dreadful state while my express order
was completed.
For me I think my comfort level with the post office would begin to get uncomfortable somewhere around 3 to 5000.
Ha! You just have to learn how to have intestinal fortitude! Heck, I have had a large box with 5 Carrera 1/24 slot cars coming from Germany that had $6,000 worth inside the box. It takes anywhere from 4 to 8 weeks to get from there to my door. It is shipped via both postal systems. Tracking sometimes goes blind just like the space crafts coming back to earth go through an area with no communication.
I believe that an “express order” might take more than “a few days”. But that’s OK, as based on its’ value, the coin should be submitted under the faster and more costly “Rarities” service level.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That sucks. I haven't shipped off eBay in some time now, but there used to be an option to NOT show the amount of postage on the label.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
If the thief has half a brain, he/she will crack that out before selling. Good luck id'ing a 1927 Saint in the raw.
i send by registered mail for coins over $500 which is slower but I believe is still safer.
Insurance suggestion:
Ship and insure.
If you belong to the ANA you can use it.
Really feel bad for the OP and had posted earlier about my harrowing experience while sending five PAMP Suisse bars (insured for 10k) to Texas. It got stuck in the Charlotte center for a few days before reaching Houston, but the mailman never went to deliver it nor leave any note even though the recipient was very much at home throughout the day.
When the recipient went to collect it from the post office, they could not find the package apparently. Called their customer service number (1-800-275-8777) and after talking to the machines for a whie, got put on hold for almost half an hour with country music.
Got a great service rep to whom I explained everything and within a few minutes there was a call from the supervisor of the post office where they couldn't track the package, giving me cock and bull stories that it was in another bin blah blah blah.
Had ensured that the bars were wrapped in aluminium foil (sort of looked like a giant candy bar) and multiple layers of padded envelopes within a box with loads of tape and then finally into a bigger padded envelope from my local post office where the lady behind the counter put additional tape securing it very nicely.
Heaved a huge sigh of relief when the young mother (recipient) got the package eventually because last year I lost two slabbed coins from inside of a package from FL with a total of nine slabs. The supervisor at our local post office was extremely kind to go out of her way to make sure that their insurance refund for my loss.
Have also got three ASE in cardboard wrap inserted into my torn packet containing uncircuated coin set. Guess the franking machines relly mess up the envelopes.
Anyways, all this has left me a bit more cautious since employee retention is a big issue currently.
https://federalnewsnetwork.com/hiring-retention/2021/10/usps-employee-satisfaction-falls-behind-competitors-ig-analysis-finds/
https://federalnewsnetwork.com/workforce/2021/10/we-are-tired-usps-employees-feel-toll-from-retention-challenges/
I have quite a few coins that needs to be sent out for grading and was hoping I could get them across to our hosts at a coin show so as to avoid all this hassle.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
still is:
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
Ooooh. Makes sense. I thought express order was two or three days but if they got something quicker I’m down with that. The “Rarities” line is probably real short most of the time, as compared to the regular submission line.
I think Richard Pryor said it best, if you had a choice of how to go: Either being hit by a bus or getting some :-) I don’t know about you but I’d be in that long MFing line.
Does the post office x-ray packages as a matter of routine? If so, wrapping the slab in aluminum foil as suggested above sounds like a good idea.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
"Is Mail X-Rayed?
Some of the mail that is sent through the United States Postal Service will pass through an X-Ray machine. There are no specific guidelines as to what may or may not be x-rayed, though mail sent to or through larger cities is likely to pass through an X-Ray machine.
If you have additional questions about X-Raying of items, contact your local Post Office.
Note: Marking a mailpiece "Do Not X-Ray" will not forgo the X-Raying of a mailpiece, and may result in the item being considered suspicious."
Source
Ill add some comments
PCGS sends registered if over certain dollar value. Priority to 5k, and over that express to a certain point, (check with them for exact $ value. To this day I have been fortunate not to have a box of coins coming back from the TPG get heisted/lost.
NGC and CAC always send mine back registered becuase I use their standard process. Can be a bit slow at times.
Not really sold any higher dollar value coins via ebay in a long while due to increase chance for theft, I usually GC em or sell then some other way.
Somebody had made the statement about the old time postal workers were kept in check for fear of losing job chancing a theft. its definitely not that way any more, they use a lot of part timers, temp help and other less than best folks in places like distribution centers, mail handling, etc.
The other week , one of my good customers wanted me to send a box of silver dollars to him instead of refinery. I can drop them off at ref, I have to ship him his. He lives about 2 hr away. I asked him if I could meet somewhere in his vicinity, but he had been too busy, so I addressed the label making it look like it was automobile parts inside, as it was heavy for the size. It made it thankfully.
TTT
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
This time of year is when a majority of the stealing at the post office is happening. They hire temporary and seasonal workers who may not be of the highest quality. Most of the shenanigans take place at the mail plant and not the local post office. A mail carrier would have to be a idiot to steal anything out of a box while on his route as pictures are taken of every package before being sorted. No xray machines at the local post office but there are xray machines at the mail plants and major post offices like the ones located at a airport.
It sounds like they are looking for an excuse to not pay a legitimate insurance claim.
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Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein