While the owner owns the slab, PCGS owns the certification.
PCGS could decertify the coin to ensure that people don't rely on and get taken by this mistake. This could reduce their exposure to financial loss as well.
Is there such an item? I know of several instances with CBH's where the holder is attributed wrong (and the price differences are quite noticeable). Is it possible that PCGS eats these if they are bought as their stated attribution, and then is shown to be unequivocally wrong?
However, as @amwldcoin pointed out, PCGS has an 'out'. The 'PCGS Guarantee' explicitly excludes the following type of "mechanical" error:
"A variety attribution that is obviously incorrect. For example, if you had a normal date 1942 Mercury dime, but the PCGS holder showed the coin as a much rarer 1942/1 overdate, this coin would not be covered by the PCGS Guarantee as the date is obviously normal. Another example would be if you had a 1945 Mercury dime with an obviously normal size mint mark, but the PCGS holder showed the coin as a "Micro S." This coin would not be covered by the PCGS Guarantee since the mint mark is obviously normal size."
Source: PCGS Guarantee
Per @burfle23, the coin is "not even close to S-16". Given this assessment, PCGS might not be willing to honor their guarantee on the variety attribution, because they would consider the mistake to be "obvious".
Thanks for posting the guarantee verbiage here @MetroD . My guess is the graders would NOT see this as obvious!
It is obvious to a select few. Not the general public for sure and not most collectors, specialists yes, but hobbyist rely on the service.
bob
Is it obvious to people who care about these varieties?
That's the bar I would expect PCGS to use in this case.
The only point I have been making all along is that all mislabels are the same when it comes to WHO determines if they get returned for a correction.
Not if an arbitrator decides.
or a judge and jury. lol
The point being that there's probably something in the PCGS authorized dealer rules about agreeing to binding arbitration in cases that could get contentious. This thread indicates that such cases exist.
@Zoins said:
While the owner owns the slab, PCGS owns the certification.
PCGS could decertify the coin to ensure that people don't rely on and get taken by this mistake. This could reduce their exposure to financial loss as well.
And, FWIW, the label ....
"If Customer breaks open any PCGS coin Holder, it shall immediately return to PCGS the PCGS certification label and shall destroy such coin Holder. Each PCGS certification label at all times shall remain the property of PCGS. If Customer comes into possession of any Holder which is not completely sealed, Customer shall immediately return such Holder to PCGS."
Source: PCGS Collectors Club Agreement, Section 6a, Emphasis Added
I am not a lawyer, and do not understand the legal ramifications. However, since it is explicitly stated among the other legalese, I am assuming that it has some significance.
@Zoins said:
While the owner owns the slab, PCGS owns the certification.
PCGS could decertify the coin to ensure that people don't rely on and get taken by this mistake. This could reduce their exposure to financial loss as well.
And, FWIW, the label ....
"If Customer breaks open any PCGS coin Holder, it shall immediately return to PCGS the PCGS certification label and shall destroy such coin Holder. Each PCGS certification label at all times shall remain the property of PCGS. If Customer comes into possession of any Holder which is not completely sealed, Customer shall immediately return such Holder to PCGS."
Source: PCGS Collectors Club Agreement, Section 6a, Emphasis Added
I am not a lawyer, and do not understand the legal ramifications. However, since it is explicitly stated among the other legalese, I am assuming that it has some significance.
That's good from a legal perspective, but in practice, I'm not sure how much PCGS can affect this. For example, a few PCGS slabbed Micro-O Morgans are still floating around.
The only point I have been making all along is that all mislabels are the same when it comes to WHO determines if they get returned for a correction.
Except only one person implied anything else. The rest of us have all said, accurately, that PCGS could request the lot to be pulled and decertify the coin unilaterally.
That's good from a legal perspective, but in practice, I'm not sure how much PCGS can affect this. For example, a few PCGS slabbed Micro-O Morgans are still floating around.
Please excuse me for not communicating more effectively.
My post about label ownership was designed to buttress your point about cert 'ownership/control' (i.e., they own the cert and the label it's printed on). I did not mean to imply anything else.
The only point I have been making all along is that all mislabels are the same when it comes to WHO determines if they get returned for a correction.
Except only one person implied anything else. The rest of us have all said, accurately, that PCGS could request the lot to be pulled and decertify the coin unilaterally.
and now we are being told we just "rent" the labels. LOL. this thread just keeps getting more bizarre.
@derryb said: and now we are being told we just "rent" the labels. LOL. this thread just keeps getting more bizarre.
It was new to me too, but it is in the "PCGS Collectors Club Agreement".
We agree to be bound by these terms when we sign the submission form (i.e., T&C #2).
Based on the context, it seems to be designed to protect the 'pop report' values from 'crack outs'.
@derryb said: and now we are being told we just "rent" the labels. LOL. this thread just keeps getting more bizarre.
It was new to me too, but it is in the "PCGS Collectors Club Agreement".
We agree to be bound by these terms when we sign the submission form (i.e., T&C #2).
Based on the context, it seems to be designed to protect the 'pop report' values from 'crack outs'.
Please don't confuse anyone with facts. We prefer just tossing or 2 cents out there, regardless of accuracy.
@MetroD said:
It was new to me too, but it is in the "PCGS Collectors Club Agreement".
We agree to be bound by these terms when we sign the [submission form]
Some people think it's okay to ignore terms/policies they disagree with.
@MetroD said:
It was new to me too, but it is in the "PCGS Collectors Club Agreement".
We agree to be bound by these terms when we sign the [submission form]
Some people think it's okay to ignore terms/policies they disagree with.
@jmlanzaf said:
To be fair, they just don't read them.
You, fine sir, make an excellent point. I am also guilty of just skimming the agreements.
When threads, like this one, take a 'deep dive' into the details of an issue, I often learn something new.
The knowledge and experience shared here never ceases to amaze me.
nothing is 100% mistake proof when people are involved there will always be mistakes made somewhere down the road it happens many times in the world we live in
The only point I have been making all along is that all mislabels are the same when it comes to WHO determines if they get returned for a correction.
Except only one person implied anything else. The rest of us have all said, accurately, that PCGS could request the lot to be pulled and decertify the coin unilaterally.
and now we are being told we just "rent" the labels. LOL. this thread just keeps getting more bizarre.
Just like beer. You never really own a beer. You're just renting it for a little while.
@burfle23 said:
I recommend PCGS for variety attributions when asked due to their attribution guarantee. They are the only TPG to offer that to my knowledge. I have misattributed examples in two other TPG slabs and both offer free reholdering with the correct attribution on the label (I was actually asked what the correct attribution is in both cases...). If purchased as the label variety both would have been significant losses for the correct variety.
The TrueView reveals clearly that the coin is an 1855 over 854.
Will PCGS reholder this coin for free (plus SHI)?
Nope.
First off, PCGS only attributes a limited set of varieties.
Secondly, except for a very few automatic ones (1955 Lincoln Cent Doubled Die), variety attribution is an extra cost option, that the original submitter didn't elect.
-----Burton ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
The TrueView reveals clearly that the coin is an 1855 over 854.
Will PCGS reholder this coin for free (plus SHI)?
Nope.
First off, PCGS only attributes a limited set of varieties.
Secondly, except for a very few automatic ones (1955 Lincoln Cent Doubled Die), variety attribution is an extra cost option, that the original submitter didn't elect.
1855/4 50c is a Red Book variety they attribute for no extra cost. Contact them to see if they'll correct the label.
@burfle23 said:
I recommend PCGS for variety attributions when asked due to their attribution guarantee. They are the only TPG to offer that to my knowledge. I have misattributed examples in two other TPG slabs and both offer free reholdering with the correct attribution on the label (I was actually asked what the correct attribution is in both cases...). If purchased as the label variety both would have been significant losses for the correct variety.
The TrueView reveals clearly that the coin is an 1855 over 854.
Will PCGS reholder this coin for free (plus SHI)?
Following your link and then to the pcgs coin number 6281 on coinfacts, then selected the 'show related coins and varieties' there is a link under major varieties to #6282 in coinfacts for 1855/54. It also appears in the price guide as a normal price line and not a sub-category. I can not say for 100% but usually these do not require variety attribution and will be acknowledged on the holder (many bust halves like this). As far as reholder question, I am not sure (the S&H even more unsure). What I have seen on several in the past is that the coin was graded prior to pcgs making the overdate a major variety and therefore not acknowledged on the holder. Don't know about this one.
Yes, PCGS will fix that for free, including shipping both ways. It's a "mechanical" error. Approval, in advance, is required, which is not a speedy process. Contact customer service and include good images of the full slab and the mistake (the date).
Lance.
Comments
While the owner owns the slab, PCGS owns the certification.
PCGS could decertify the coin to ensure that people don't rely on and get taken by this mistake. This could reduce their exposure to financial loss as well.
Is it obvious to people who care about these varieties?
That's the bar I would expect PCGS to use in this case.
The point being that there's probably something in the PCGS authorized dealer rules about agreeing to binding arbitration in cases that could get contentious. This thread indicates that such cases exist.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
And, FWIW, the label ....
"If Customer breaks open any PCGS coin Holder, it shall immediately return to PCGS the PCGS certification label and shall destroy such coin Holder. Each PCGS certification label at all times shall remain the property of PCGS. If Customer comes into possession of any Holder which is not completely sealed, Customer shall immediately return such Holder to PCGS."
Source: PCGS Collectors Club Agreement, Section 6a, Emphasis Added
I am not a lawyer, and do not understand the legal ramifications. However, since it is explicitly stated among the other legalese, I am assuming that it has some significance.
That's good from a legal perspective, but in practice, I'm not sure how much PCGS can affect this. For example, a few PCGS slabbed Micro-O Morgans are still floating around.
Except only one person implied anything else. The rest of us have all said, accurately, that PCGS could request the lot to be pulled and decertify the coin unilaterally.
Please excuse me for not communicating more effectively.
My post about label ownership was designed to buttress your point about cert 'ownership/control' (i.e., they own the cert and the label it's printed on). I did not mean to imply anything else.
and now we are being told we just "rent" the labels. LOL. this thread just keeps getting more bizarre.
It was new to me too, but it is in the "PCGS Collectors Club Agreement".
We agree to be bound by these terms when we sign the submission form (i.e., T&C #2).
Based on the context, it seems to be designed to protect the 'pop report' values from 'crack outs'.
Please don't confuse anyone with facts. We prefer just tossing or 2 cents out there, regardless of accuracy.
[End sarcasm]
Some people think it's okay to ignore terms/policies they disagree with.
To be fair, they just don't read them.
You, fine sir, make an excellent point. I am also guilty of just skimming the agreements.
When threads, like this one, take a 'deep dive' into the details of an issue, I often learn something new.
The knowledge and experience shared here never ceases to amaze me.
nothing is 100% mistake proof when people are involved there will always be mistakes made somewhere down the road it happens many times in the world we live in
https://www.omnicoin.com/collection/colind?page=1&sort=sort&sale=1&country=0
Just like beer. You never really own a beer. You're just renting it for a little while.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
And an update- the on-line cert has been removed; will make it harder to sell it as listed.
And maybe the end to the story!
Some think rules and guidelines are for others, never them.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
I stumbled across this coin in a PCGS "1855 AU-details, scratched" holder
https://pcgs.com/cert/44147924
The TrueView reveals clearly that the coin is an 1855 over 854.
Will PCGS reholder this coin for free (plus SHI)?
https://ebay.com/itm/195569255709?hash=item2d88d6051d:g:8h0AAOSwCrpjzvkJ&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoDFjTFknyrnIz4FCjSCIMExx3o%2B3zQ9UzyaUPYoRixlOg4jLE97zWnx1RBhF5GUFaf6XJm4H8BYkIXeml05cfMhTAtCvRrZtcuDTXmUWYuKe8pd0M4P03%2Fi8Mh7S8Q%2BFlmAuLkrv4JmSVGbtVh00BuL5Cv5E9jGb4gz6eqNRWPSPNyq5T51DT8ZVpm3CXCIk7n8FwkpjxmrORkdzUXj7yxk%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR_7xqOrEYQ
I used to be famous now I just collect coins.
Link to My Registry Set.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-specialty-sets/washington-quarters-complete-variety-set-circulation-strikes-1932-1964/publishedset/78469
Varieties Are The Spice Of LIFE and Thanks to Those who teach us what to search For.
Nope.
First off, PCGS only attributes a limited set of varieties.
Secondly, except for a very few automatic ones (1955 Lincoln Cent Doubled Die), variety attribution is an extra cost option, that the original submitter didn't elect.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
1855/4 50c is a Red Book variety they attribute for no extra cost. Contact them to see if they'll correct the label.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Following your link and then to the pcgs coin number 6281 on coinfacts, then selected the 'show related coins and varieties' there is a link under major varieties to #6282 in coinfacts for 1855/54. It also appears in the price guide as a normal price line and not a sub-category. I can not say for 100% but usually these do not require variety attribution and will be acknowledged on the holder (many bust halves like this). As far as reholder question, I am not sure (the S&H even more unsure). What I have seen on several in the past is that the coin was graded prior to pcgs making the overdate a major variety and therefore not acknowledged on the holder. Don't know about this one.
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1855-54-50c-arrows/6282
https://www.pcgs.com/prices/detail/liberty-seated-half-dollar/121/most-active
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
Yes, PCGS will fix that for free, including shipping both ways. It's a "mechanical" error. Approval, in advance, is required, which is not a speedy process. Contact customer service and include good images of the full slab and the mistake (the date).
Lance.