How should this be properly reported to PCGS? Incorrectly attributed coin/ holder for sale on line..
burfle23
Posts: 2,266 ✭✭✭✭✭
I and a group of other early copper enthusiasts have reviewed the subject coin and agree it is a 1793 S-13, NOT the much rarer S-16 as noted in the cert (both varieties use a common reverse). A couple of them have contacted the seller (auction is still open) with no response.
Images of the subject coin as well as comparisons to a known S-16 (on the left), and S-13 (on the right).
Image added from an EAC friend:
Although a low grade there is enough detail to see "BE" of LIBERTY does not match S-16. The value difference is HUGE; I assume if sold as holdered the variety attribution guarantee would protect the buyer...
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Comments
@HeatherBoyd may be able to help
From the photos the R has the thicker S-16 characteristic, the S-13 and the subject coin don’t match. Seems more like confirmation bias where one “enthusiast” said it looked wrong and everyone else tried to fit the coin in the “wrong” category
Interesting response; not sure which of my posted images you missed; not even close to S-16. I have no interest in an argument but several of the "enthusiasts" who reviewed the same images are leading experts in early American copper. This is either an error in attribution or a "mechanical error" and hopefully will be addressed prior to a sale.
variety attribution guarantee
???
Is there such an item? I know of several instances with CBH's where the holder is attributed wrong (and the price differences are quite noticeable). Is it possible that PCGS eats these if they are bought as their stated attribution, and then is shown to be unequivocally wrong?
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
I have never heard of a case where PCGS guaranteed a variety attribution/many cases where they refused to guarantee variety attribution. They are always dubbed mechanical errors.
In theory, yes.
Source: PCGS Variety Program
However, as @amwldcoin pointed out, PCGS has an 'out'. The 'PCGS Guarantee' explicitly excludes the following type of "mechanical" error:
"A variety attribution that is obviously incorrect. For example, if you had a normal date 1942 Mercury dime, but the PCGS holder showed the coin as a much rarer 1942/1 overdate, this coin would not be covered by the PCGS Guarantee as the date is obviously normal. Another example would be if you had a 1945 Mercury dime with an obviously normal size mint mark, but the PCGS holder showed the coin as a "Micro S." This coin would not be covered by the PCGS Guarantee since the mint mark is obviously normal size."
Source: PCGS Guarantee
Per @burfle23, the coin is "not even close to S-16". Given this assessment, PCGS might not be willing to honor their guarantee on the variety attribution, because they would consider the mistake to be "obvious".
Thanks for posting the guarantee verbiage here @MetroD . My guess is the graders would NOT see this as obvious!
It is obvious to a select few. Not the general public for sure and not most collectors, specialists yes, but hobbyist rely on the service.
bob
A few years ago I had a 1964-d Washington quarter in AU that they had as a type C reverse. It took me a couple years to figure out that it was not. I returned it for guarantee and they changed it. They said it was a mechanical error. I told them a mechanical error is something a 6th grader would know with a redbook, like wrong year, mintmark, denomination ... not a collector that has been collecting a few years would know is wrong. Someone had paid extra for PCGS variety service and the attribution was wrong. The coin was only a $70 coin turned into a $3 coin, but they did honor their guarantee and gave me a coupon for 1 free express grading.
I recommend PCGS for variety attributions when asked due to their attribution guarantee. They are the only TPG to offer that to my knowledge. I have misattributed examples in two other TPG slabs and both offer free reholdering with the correct attribution on the label (I was actually asked what the correct attribution is in both cases...). If purchased as the label variety both would have been significant losses for the correct variety.
@burfle23 You edited your original post immediately after I posted (which is very interesting), so I dont know if you swapped out or added photos. And honestly, its not a hill worth dying on for me at this point. Without the coin in hand, I just think it's a bit cavalier to accuse it of not being what PCGS put on the slab label.
I did add the image of "LIBE" at the bottom of the original post @HoldTheMayo as a friend sent it to me after I posted this. Obviously didn't change your opinion on this one.
Not my fight but perhaps you should know this topic has been discussed at length on the EAC website by some of the most knowledgeable people in the business. "Cavalier" is definitely the wrong descriptor.
Smitten with DBLCs.
Dealer freind of mine bought a 72 Double die graded and attributed as the bigger one DDO, he brought it to me to look at and I told him it is one of the minor variety 72's. He contacted PCGS and they told him it was a mechanical error, but IMO they had it attributed wrong with the incorrect pcgs coin number, they had the coin number as the good one, but not the correct coin, after being on the phone with them several times, they finally agreed to compensate him, correct the label, and cut him a check.
Thanks @Aotearoa ; I actually posted it there.
I’m well aware! Cheers.
Smitten with DBLCs.
Just for a point of reference is my correctly attributed example:
PCGS does not normally get involved unless the owner of the coin makes a request and sends the coin in.
"How many times can a man turn his head and pretend he just doesn’t see?” - Bob Dylan
WOW; I would have thought PCGS would want to be involved in something like this when brought to their attention...
Miss-attributions and label errors can only be corrected if they have the slabbed coin. The only way for them to get it is for the owner to send it in with a request for correction. A phone call to customer service before hand is always best.
"How many times can a man turn his head and pretend he just doesn’t see?” - Bob Dylan
They will get involved without the coin if there is a big enough check on the line. I brought an 1878 Rev of 79 they had mistakenly called a proof to their attention several years ago. From the pictures above, the lower right serif on the L would make me call this S-13 and not S-16. Contact customer service and send an e-mail that says "Major EAC Rarity Misattribution" or something similarly attention getting. Point them to this thread. They can pull the cert on the coin if convinced (their attribution department will get involved) and request the coin be sent to them. One issue is going to be that there's no price guide values for S-16, so determining liability will be difficult unless someone drops the $12K asking price on the coin. Another will be actually getting through to the seller, unless they're the one that submitted the coin for grading in the first place.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
That is correct. The previous poster is incorrect. PCGS, if alerted to errors, will often intervene to have the item pulled from auction pending evaluation. While a "country auction house" might not comply and PCGS has no way to compel them, the major houses will generally cooperate with PCGS.
Like the previous poster correctly said "Miss-attributions and label errors can only be corrected if they have the slabbed coin. The only way for them to get it is for the owner to send it in with a request for correction. A phone call to customer service before hand is always best."
Without the slabbed coin in hand, please explain how PCGS can correct the label? lol
PCGS has no control over miss-labeled coins unless the coin owner desires a correction.
"How many times can a man turn his head and pretend he just doesn’t see?” - Bob Dylan
They can't physically correct the label, but they can pull the cert and cause it to come up invalid when looked up, possibly with an explanation as to why.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
I didn't say they would. I said they would have the item pulled from auction
To play devil's advocate, consider this.....
Let's say a coin is in an auction and is suspected to be graded, labeled, or attributed incorrectly. PCGS, having been notified, pulls the certification and it's later determined that the label was in fact correct. They've now caused harm to the consignor and auction house. I think the safest course of action for them, ultimately, is to make a judgement when the coin and label are in-hand. These guarantee issues have the potential to get messy and I'm sure their policies were developed in the school of hard knocks.
Their process is likely defined to minimize expected harm done to everyone involved, including themselves and everyone from consignor to buyer. Prematurely pulling a cert and then saying "never mind" probably harms PCGS's reputation more than it harms other parties, as the coin can be resold, this time with more rigor backing up the attribution. To prevent that from happening, no doubt there are multiple people confirming that either a disputed attribution is definitely incorrect or that it is equivocal and the coin would need to be seen in person. It's easier to attribute some coins in low grade from pictures than it is others in high grade in hand.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
PCGS cannot pull an item from an auction that it is not being conducted by PCGS. You make it sound like PCGS maintains control over graded coins once they leave PCGS. Far from the truth.
PCGS can request an item be pulled from auction and returned for a proper label. Ultimately, as I CORRECTLY said before, it is the decision of the owner of the coin.
The OP discussed the "coin as holdered." My comments are about the coin as labeled. Since others wish to bring in what PCGS says about the coin on their website, yes, PCGS can post whatever they wish about the coin. However, that does not change the label in the holder unless the owner of the coin chooses to send it to PCGS for any necessary correction.
"How many times can a man turn his head and pretend he just doesn’t see?” - Bob Dylan
This makes no sense at all. PCGS will not guarantee obvious errors? They would rather have a brain-dead labeling error serve as a monument to their incompetence than do anything gratis for their customer to maintain their reputation? I'm laughing now over how ridiculous this is.
Again, read my original post. I said that PCGS would contact the auction house and have it pulled. I further said that the big houses would likely comply but "country auction houses" might ignore them.
It's easier if you read it the first time so I don't have to repeat myself.
I have no direct experience with the PCGS guarantee.
That said, I am GUESSING that PCGS would correct an "obvious clerical error" on a label at no charge. They just do not want to be financially responsible for making a payout, per the guarantee, over a typo.
Say you had a raw 1928 $20 St. Gaudens graded. When you received it back from PCGS, the label incorrectly indicated it was a 1929, a more valuable coin. Since the coin is clearly a 1928, the exemption for "mechanical errors" would 'save' PCGS from having to cut a sizable check over a fat-fingered digit.
They may have some leverage over dealer members in that they could suspend their account for violating terms of conduct.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
They don't even have to make such threats. I'm quite sure the major houses would cooperate with a friendly request. It is in everyone's best interest to prevent any sale based on misinformation. Lots get pulled all the time.
I am curious where your expertise in the matter comes from and your connection with PCGS?
common sense dictates that the owner of the coin, and not the TPG, controls the destiny of a privately held, slabbed coin. The coin belongs to the owner, the website data concerning the coin belongs to the TPG. Seems to be a lot of people here who somehow believe that the reach of a TPG extends into my box of 20. It does not. Once coins are graded and returned to me I decide whether are not an incorrect label gets replaced.
For the sake of argument let's say I own a 1907 common $20 Saint that made it out of a TPG with a High Relief label. Surely such a label error would carry a nice premium on the open market. Let's assume the TPG would like to see their mistake corrected. Could they force me to return it for a label correction or would I be free to sell it for a hefty profit as is?
"How many times can a man turn his head and pretend he just doesn’t see?” - Bob Dylan
And they should get returned to a TPG for a label correction only when the owner of the coin agrees. Do you really believe a major house should return a coin to a TPG for a label change without the permission of the owner of the coin? Even they should realize it is an owner decision. While they may choose not to "list" a coin with a questionable label, they likely realize the liability of making that decision without consulting the owner.
"How many times can a man turn his head and pretend he just doesn’t see?” - Bob Dylan
I didn't say they would. I said they would pull the lot which is all the OP is asking.
If I'm not mistaken this is addressed in the agreement when you become an authorized submitter.
They cannot force the owner to send the coin back as you maintain; but "common sense" should dictate they care about the mistake and their reputation, which I believe they do. In a recent "mechanical error" of a peace $ resulting in an over-graded "label" and the coin becoming the top POP the on-line cert was removed. In today's age of counterfeits, smart phones/ apps and embedded authenticity chips collectors have the opportunity to "verify" the cert prior to a purchase. That seems "common sense" to me and in the case of the peace $ a sure sign there is a problem
...
Hopefully someone from PCGS saw this post and is taking whatever action they deem appropriate; as a friend pointed out to me, "not my fight"...
I would hope that as the owner of a mislabeled coin being offered for sale by my dealer of choice that the dealer would not lose his "authorized dealer" status for simply complying with my wishes and returning the coin to me.
"How many times can a man turn his head and pretend he just doesn’t see?” - Bob Dylan
On several occasions I have alerted both Heritage and GC to mis-attributed Draped Bust Large Cents. In all cases, the coins were pulled from current auctions for label corrections. (I admit that in one case I bought the coin because it was undervalued due to the mis-attribution...)
Smitten with DBLCs.
You are correct, they will not take it from you without your permission.
Of course, that mislabeled coin is pretty much useless to you if PCGS pulls the cert.
I have sold a few mislabeled coins at a premium. Useless? lol
"How many times can a man turn his head and pretend he just doesn’t see?” - Bob Dylan
"pretty much useless"
And, in this context, we're talking about a mislabeled rare Sheldon variety. You did NOT sell a mislabeled variety for a premium. Sure, you maybe can get $20 for a $15 coin in an "error holder". You did NOT and can NOT get a premium on a mislabeled variety unless it is a better variety than the label - in which case you would be an idiot to not send it back to PCGS for correction.
But, go ahead, keep beating your drum - no matter how out of tune.
a mislabeled slab is a mislabeled slab whether it is a $20 error or a $2000 error. Regardless of which it remains the owner's decision to have it corrected or not have it corrected.
What's next? "Almost useless?" lol
"How many times can a man turn his head and pretend he just doesn’t see?” - Bob Dylan
I will agree your posts are next to entertaining...
I believe the point being made is if an informed collector looks up the cert and it is removed he/ she will at least take pause and ask before a purchase.
And I disagree all mislabels are the same! The mislabeled "MS69" Peace was HUGE, and the honest owner is having it returned through the dealer who submitted it AND the cert was removed as I previously noted. This "S-16" is worse in my opinion, since the owner/ seller has been notified by several it is a mistake and continues to keep the listing up.
Perhaps you would have no problem with selling it as is (is it your listing?) but I believe many do...
The only point I have been making all along is that all mislabels are the same when it comes to WHO determines if they get returned for a correction.
"How many times can a man turn his head and pretend he just doesn’t see?” - Bob Dylan
Not if an arbitrator decides.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
or a judge and jury. lol
"How many times can a man turn his head and pretend he just doesn’t see?” - Bob Dylan