PCGS and NGC ....both with CAC

jmlanzaf · December 20, 2021 2:32PM

@Joey29 said:
I don’t understand why people are upset with CAC threads as like it or not CAC is an important and integral part of the hobby. There are issues worth discussing concerning CAC just as there are issues with the TPG services that are discussed in this forum on a regular basis.

They aren't upset with the threads. They are upset with the existence of CAC.

MasonG · December 20, 2021 2:37PM

@jmlanzaf said:

@Joey29 said:
I don’t understand why people are upset with CAC threads as like it or not CAC is an important and integral part of the hobby. There are issues worth discussing concerning CAC just as there are issues with the TPG services that are discussed in this forum on a regular basis.

They aren't upset with the threads. They are upset with the existence of CAC.

Yep.

Some people are unhappy because CAC increases competition for the coins they want to buy and others because they can't sell their non-CAC coins for as much as a CAC example.

amwldcoin · December 20, 2021 3:05PM

And some have the same opinion as me and view them for what they are to the hobby.....a PARASITE!

@MasonG said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@Joey29 said:
I don’t understand why people are upset with CAC threads as like it or not CAC is an important and integral part of the hobby. There are issues worth discussing concerning CAC just as there are issues with the TPG services that are discussed in this forum on a regular basis.

They aren't upset with the threads. They are upset with the existence of CAC.

Yep.

Some people are unhappy because CAC increases competition for the coins they want to buy and others because they can't sell their non-CAC coins for as much as a CAC example.

ReadyFireAim · December 20, 2021 3:07PM

@MasonG said:
Some people are unhappy because CAC increases competition for the coins they want to buy and others because they can't sell their non-CAC coins for as much as a CAC example.

Nope & not even close.
I've got two VN's in the wings. There's a good chance my coins won't come up again for 80 years.
At that time PCGS, NGC & CAC could be a memory.

Talking money while looking at art is vulgar.

MasonG · December 20, 2021 3:10PM

It's a good thing their service is entirely voluntary, then. That allows anybody who doesn't believe they add value to the hobby to ignore them.

Or maybe not.

pmh1nic · December 20, 2021 3:13PM

@jmlanzaf said:

@pmh1nic said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@pmh1nic said:

@Gazes said:

@pmh1nic said:

@winesteven said:

@pmh1nic said:
O.k., so CAC will not sticker anything that is not in an NGC or PCGS holder. Does an ANACS or ICG coin never meet their standard? Does CAC figure putting a sticker on an ICG slab validates ICG as a reputable grading company? Or does CAC believe sticker a coin in an ICG slab diminishes the CAC reputation?

The bottom line is as you said - CAC will not sticker anything that is not in an NGC or PCGS holder. That is their policy, end of story!

My question is what is the reasoning behind their policy?

Is this really important to you?

Important versus solving world hunger, no. Important as in an interesting bit of market information, yes. Do you know the answer?

Yes

You had know idea what the answer was until Kove

No

No you didn't. You don't have fake it. There is no shame in saying "I don't know".

Joey29 · December 20, 2021 3:41PM

@amwldcoin said:
And some have the same opinion as me and view them for what they are to the hobby.....a PARASITE!

@MasonG said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@Joey29 said:
I don’t understand why people are upset with CAC threads as like it or not CAC is an important and integral part of the hobby. There are issues worth discussing concerning CAC just as there are issues with the TPG services that are discussed in this forum on a regular basis.

They aren't upset with the threads. They are upset with the existence of CAC.

Yep.

Some people are unhappy because CAC increases competition for the coins they want to buy and others because they can't sell their non-CAC coins for as much as a CAC example.

Raw coin seller’s and some collectors didn’t like PCGS or NGC back in the early eighties either, viewed them as “parasites “ that cost them money. CAC provides a valuable service to the consumer just as PCGS and NGC does.

MasonG · December 20, 2021 3:44PM

@Joey29 said:
CAC provides a valuable service to the consumer just as PCGS and NGC does.

Yep.

If people didn't consider these services valuable, they wouldn't use them.

jmlanzaf · December 20, 2021 3:55PM

@pmh1nic said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@pmh1nic said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@pmh1nic said:

@Gazes said:

@pmh1nic said:

@winesteven said:

@pmh1nic said:
O.k., so CAC will not sticker anything that is not in an NGC or PCGS holder. Does an ANACS or ICG coin never meet their standard? Does CAC figure putting a sticker on an ICG slab validates ICG as a reputable grading company? Or does CAC believe sticker a coin in an ICG slab diminishes the CAC reputation?

The bottom line is as you said - CAC will not sticker anything that is not in an NGC or PCGS holder. That is their policy, end of story!

My question is what is the reasoning behind their policy?

Is this really important to you?

Important versus solving world hunger, no. Important as in an interesting bit of market information, yes. Do you know the answer?

Yes

You had know idea what the answer was until Kove

No

No you didn't. You don't have fake it. There is no shame in saying "I don't

Superfluity.

jmlanzaf · December 20, 2021 4:03PM

@MasonG said:

@Joey29 said:
CAC provides a valuable service to the consumer just as PCGS and NGC does.

Yep.

If people didn't consider these services valuable, they wouldn't use them.

Same argument. Different thread. No minds are ever changed.

Catbert · December 20, 2021 4:06PM

I’m liking @jmlanzaf ’s new brevity. 🤗

jmlanzaf · December 20, 2021 4:07PM

@Catbert said:
I’m liking @jmlanzaf ’s new brevity. 🤗

Thanks

logger7 · December 20, 2021 4:22PM

Impressed by CU forums tolerance of controversial issues like this.

CoinJunkie · December 20, 2021 4:28PM

@Catbert said:
I’m liking @jmlanzaf ’s new brevity. 🤗

I'm hoping he takes it one step further.

jmlanzaf · December 20, 2021 4:29PM

@CoinJunkie said:

@Catbert said:
I’m liking @jmlanzaf ’s new brevity. 🤗

I'm hoping he takes it one step further.

Sorry

Joey29 · December 20, 2021 4:47PM

@Joey29 said:

@amwldcoin said:
And some have the same opinion as me and view them for what they are to the hobby.....a PARASITE!

@MasonG said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@Joey29 said:
I don’t understand why people are upset with CAC threads as like it or not CAC is an important and integral part of the hobby. There are issues worth discussing concerning CAC just as there are issues with the TPG services that are discussed in this forum on a regular basis.

They aren't upset with the threads. They are upset with the existence of CAC.

Yep.

Some people are unhappy because CAC increases competition for the coins they want to buy and others because they can't sell their non-CAC coins for as much as a CAC example.

Raw coin seller’s and some collectors didn’t like PCGS or NGC back in the early eighties either, viewed them as “parasites “ that cost them money. CAC provides a valuable service to the consumer just as PCGS and NGC does.

Not everyone has the expertise to know if a coin has some pvc, high point friction, surface alterations etc. or is overgraded. CAC is like an insurance policy, not that PCGS is not a overall very accurate excellent TPGS.

pmh1nic · December 20, 2021 5:07PM

@jmlanzaf said:

@pmh1nic said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@pmh1nic said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@pmh1nic said:

@Gazes said:

@pmh1nic said:

@winesteven said:

@pmh1nic said:
O.k., so CAC will not sticker anything that is not in an NGC or PCGS holder. Does an ANACS or ICG coin never meet their standard? Does CAC figure putting a sticker on an ICG slab validates ICG as a reputable grading company? Or does CAC believe sticker a coin in an ICG slab diminishes the CAC reputation?

The bottom line is as you said - CAC will not sticker anything that is not in an NGC or PCGS holder. That is their policy, end of story!

My question is what is the reasoning behind their policy?

Is this really important to you?

Important versus solving world hunger, no. Important as in an interesting bit of market information, yes. Do you know the answer?

Yes

You had know idea what the answer was until Kove

No

No you didn't. You don't have fake it. There is no shame in saying "I don't

Superfluity.

Confession is good for the soul. You'll feel better once you unload that burden of perfection anxiety. It really is o.k. to admit when you don't know something.

gtstang · December 20, 2021 5:14PM

@Joey29 said:

@Joey29 said:

@amwldcoin said:
And some have the same opinion as me and view them for what they are to the hobby.....a PARASITE!

@MasonG said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@Joey29 said:
I don’t understand why people are upset with CAC threads as like it or not CAC is an important and integral part of the hobby. There are issues worth discussing concerning CAC just as there are issues with the TPG services that are discussed in this forum on a regular basis.

They aren't upset with the threads. They are upset with the existence of CAC.

Yep.

Some people are unhappy because CAC increases competition for the coins they want to buy and others because they can't sell their non-CAC coins for as much as a CAC example.

Raw coin seller’s and some collectors didn’t like PCGS or NGC back in the early eighties either, viewed them as “parasites “ that cost them money. CAC provides a valuable service to the consumer just as PCGS and NGC does.

Not everyone has the expertise to know if a coin has some pvc, high point friction, surface alterations etc. or is overgraded. CAC is like an insurance policy, not that PCGS is not a overall very accurate excellent TPGS.

You must mean assurance because cac will not pay you on any loss you may have indured for a cac verified coin.

Unknown · December 20, 2021 5:25PM

This content has been removed.

winesteven · December 20, 2021 5:33PM

So cute, but ignores the true reality of our numismatic market! Do so at your own peril. However, I think we’re both laughing, so all is good!

Steve

MasonG · December 20, 2021 5:41PM

What reflects more poorly on the hobby- providing a service that many people find valuable or mocking as suckers people who use that service?

Asking for a friend...

MFeld · December 20, 2021 5:45PM

@MasonG said:
What reflects more poorly on the hobby- providing a service that many people find valuable or mocking as suckers people who use that service?

Asking for a friend...

I don’t think the latter reflects poorly on the hobby, but rather, on the mockers. Answering for a friend.😉

MasonG · December 20, 2021 5:47PM

@MFeld said:

@MasonG said:
What reflects more poorly on the hobby- providing a service that many people find valuable or mocking as suckers people who use that service?

Asking for a friend...

I don’t think the latter reflects poorly on the hobby, but rather, on the mockers. Answering for a friend.😉

Maybe not directly but how would you feel, as a newer collector unsure of your grading skills who chooses to use the service, to find that your inexperience is being ridiculed?

jmlanzaf · December 20, 2021 5:54PM

@MasonG said:

@MFeld said:

@MasonG said:
What reflects more poorly on the hobby- providing a service that many people find valuable or mocking as suckers people who use that service?

Asking for a friend...

I don’t think the latter reflects poorly on the hobby, but rather, on the mockers. Answering for a friend.😉

Maybe not directly but how would you feel, as a newer collector unsure of your grading skills who chooses to use the service, to find that your inexperience is being ridiculed?

Well said.

jmlanzaf · December 20, 2021 5:57PM

@pmh1nic said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@pmh1nic said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@pmh1nic said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@pmh1nic said:

@Gazes said:

@pmh1nic said:

@winesteven said:

@pmh1nic said:
O.k., so CAC will not sticker anything that is not in an NGC or PCGS holder. Does an ANACS or ICG coin never meet their standard? Does CAC figure putting a sticker on an ICG slab validates ICG as a reputable grading company? Or does CAC believe sticker a coin in an ICG slab diminishes the CAC reputation?

The bottom line is as you said - CAC will not sticker anything that is not in an NGC or PCGS holder. That is their policy, end of story!

My question is what is the reasoning behind their policy?

Is this really important to you?

Important versus solving world hunger, no. Important as in an interesting bit of market information, yes. Do you know the answer?

Yes

You had know idea what the answer was until Kove

No

No you didn't. You don't have fake it. There is no shame in saying "I don't

Superfluity.

Confession is good for the soul. You'll feel better once you unload that burden of perfection anxiety. It really is o.k. to admit when you don't know something.

That would be lying.

winesteven · December 20, 2021 6:04PM

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again:

While there are several reasons stated as to why certain collectors choose to not submit their coins to CAC at only $16 a pop (and NO charge for coins that don’t pass), knowing that their coins that do get a CAC, in general will have an increase in market value of at least that $16, and often much more, and also knowing their coins down the road will then be easier to sell to get fair value (whether by them or their heirs) I truly believe a BIG unspoken reason for their decision is because they fear the psychological repercussion if a well respected unbiased authority clearly says to them that the majority of their Collection eligible for a CAC is not up to the quality standard of meriting CAC’s!

gtstang · December 20, 2021 6:19PM

@MasonG said:

@MFeld said:

@MasonG said:
What reflects more poorly on the hobby- providing a service that many people find valuable or mocking as suckers people who use that service?

Asking for a friend...

I don’t think the latter reflects poorly on the hobby, but rather, on the mockers. Answering for a friend.😉

Maybe not directly but how would you feel, as a newer collector unsure of your grading skills who chooses to use the service, to find that your inexperience is being ridiculed?

This used to be said about buying pcgs/ngc coins vs. Raw but now that thought process seems to have morphed in that pcgs/ngc is no longer good enough if it does not have cac approval.
If I was a new collector, I think I would be more confused than anything else by all of the letters being thrown around on this hobby.

MasonG · December 20, 2021 6:26PM

@gtstang said:
but now that thought process seems to have morphed in that pcgs/ngc is no longer good enough if it does not have cac approval.

It's not good enough for some people, others are fine with just PCGS/NGC and some are even okay with raw coins.

@gtstang said:
If I was a new collector, I think I would be more confused than anything else by all of the letters being thrown around on this hobby.

Are there hobbies that don't have their own specific lingo and such?

gtstang · December 20, 2021 6:43PM

Astute collectors that have been in this industry for a very long time know that P T. Barnum was right.
Those collectors don't need a sticker to know what they have but will have a sticker put on when they want to sell for the Hopeful benefit of making more money when they sell.
CAC clearly states their stickered coins sell for more. It's an added value selling "tool".
Do buyers even enjoy looking at their coins anymore, or is it just a "cool, one more for the registry " and throw it in a box with everything else...

jmlanzaf · December 20, 2021 6:47PM

@gtstang said:
Astute collectors that have been in this industry for a very long time know that P T. Barnum was right.
Those collectors don't need a sticker to know what they have but will have a sticker put on when they want to sell for the Hopeful benefit of making more money when they sell.
CAC clearly states their stickered coins sell for more. It's an added value selling "tool".
Do buyers even enjoy looking at their coins anymore, or is it just a "cool, one more for the registry " and throw it in a box with everything else...

Honestly, hasn't the "looking" always been suspect? I mean, people put together Whitman albums full of average looking coins with a few crappy-looking key dates because they wanted to complete the series. How many spent a lot of time admiring their average-looking coins? How many people put even their nice looking coins in safety deposit boxes and visit them once every 5 or 10 years? Would an AG3 1916-D dime be anything more than $20 if people only bought them to admire them?

pmh1nic · December 20, 2021 6:50PM

@jmlanzaf said:

@pmh1nic said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@pmh1nic said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@pmh1nic said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@pmh1nic said:

@Gazes said:

@pmh1nic said:

@winesteven said:

@pmh1nic said:
O.k., so CAC will not sticker anything that is not in an NGC or PCGS holder. Does an ANACS or ICG coin never meet their standard? Does CAC figure putting a sticker on an ICG slab validates ICG as a reputable grading company? Or does CAC believe sticker a coin in an ICG slab diminishes the CAC reputation?

The bottom line is as you said - CAC will not sticker anything that is not in an NGC or PCGS holder. That is their policy, end of story!

My question is what is the reasoning behind their policy?

Is this really important to you?

Important versus solving world hunger, no. Important as in an interesting bit of market information, yes. Do you know the answer?

Yes

You had know idea what the answer was until Kove

No

No you didn't. You don't have fake it. There is no shame in saying "I don't

Superfluity.

Confession is good for the soul. You'll feel better once you unload that burden of perfection anxiety. It really is o.k. to admit when you don't know something.

That would be lying.

Add denial to perfection anxiety. You're a trouble individual.

jmlanzaf · December 20, 2021 6:53PM

@MasonG said:

@gtstang said:
but now that thought process seems to have morphed in that pcgs/ngc is no longer good enough if it does not have cac approval.

It's not good enough for some people, others are fine with just PCGS/NGC and some are even okay with raw coins.

@gtstang said:
If I was a new collector, I think I would be more confused than anything else by all of the letters being thrown around on this hobby.

Are there hobbies that don't have their own specific lingo and such?

There is no subject that doesn't have its own lingo. As I tell my students, taking 5 college courses is like taking 5 different languages simultaneously. Not only does each have its own language, they often have very different meanings. Look at one of our "special friends" who doesn't understand "original surfaces" as the term is used in numismatics.

How many people think that a 70 point grading scale makes sense? Just about every other collectible uses a "10" or "100" point scale. Wouldn't a newbie think that a coin that was a "65" had received a failing grade?

A printer's "proof" is more akin to a "pattern" coin which is similar to a stamp "essai".

Aotearoa · December 20, 2021 6:55PM

Staggering to its inevitable demise this thread is.

jmlanzaf · December 20, 2021 6:57PM

@Aotearoa said:
Staggering to its inevitable demise this thread is.

Surprise there is not

MasonG · December 20, 2021 6:58PM

@Aotearoa said:
Staggering to its inevitable demise this thread is.

Better with pictures...

fathom · December 20, 2021 7:24PM

"Adventure. Excitement. A Jedi craves not these CAC threads".

Sorry......

jmlanzaf · December 20, 2021 7:33PM

@fathom said:
"Adventure. Excitement. A Jedi craves not these CAC threads".

Sorry......

CAC threads =The Dark Side

pmh1nic · December 20, 2021 7:38PM

@jmlanzaf said:

@MasonG said:

@gtstang said:
but now that thought process seems to have morphed in that pcgs/ngc is no longer good enough if it does not have cac approval.

It's not good enough for some people, others are fine with just PCGS/NGC and some are even okay with raw coins.

@gtstang said:
If I was a new collector, I think I would be more confused than anything else by all of the letters being thrown around on this hobby.

Are there hobbies that don't have their own specific lingo and such?

There is no subject that doesn't have its own lingo. As I tell my students, taking 5 college courses is like taking 5 different languages simultaneously. Not only does each have its own language, they often have very different meanings. Look at one of our "special friends" who doesn't understand "original surfaces" as the term is used in numismatics.

How many people think that a 70 point grading scale makes sense? Just about every other collectible uses a "10" or "100" point scale. Wouldn't a newbie think that a coin that was a "65" had received a failing grade?

A printer's "proof" is more akin to a "pattern" coin which is similar to a stamp "essai".

You really want to go there...

I understand exactly what " original surfaces" means. You're the one claiming a coin with environmentally damaged surfaces, to borrow a phrase from Ricko, has original surfaces. You play in your numismatic metaverse making up your own reality. I'll play along with you to a certain extent but then let's get back to reality where words really mean something.

oldabeintx · December 20, 2021 7:47PM

@winesteven said:
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again:

While there are several reasons stated as to why certain collectors choose to not submit their coins to CAC at only $16 a pop (and NO charge for coins that don’t pass), knowing that their coins that do get a CAC, in general will have an increase in market value of at least that $16, and often much more, and also knowing their coins down the road will then be easier to sell to get fair value (whether by them or their heirs) I truly believe a BIG unspoken reason for their decision is because they fear the psychological repercussion if a well respected unbiased authority clearly says to them that the majority of their Collection eligible for a CAC is not up to the quality standard of meriting CAC’s!

Guilty in part. I've done well with some series and not so well with others so have mixed emotions about exposing my ignorance. After experimenting l now feel that I can take my time and that I don't relish having my coins floating around the country. I like to enjoy them regularly. When I get ready to sell or get bored I will send them in as something to do. If I run out of time (oh oh) I've instructed my heirs to auction my collection with auction houses that routinely submit coins to CAC.

jmlanzaf · December 20, 2021 7:50PM

@pmh1nic said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@MasonG said:

@gtstang said:
but now that thought process seems to have morphed in that pcgs/ngc is no longer good enough if it does not have cac approval.

It's not good enough for some people, others are fine with just PCGS/NGC and some are even okay with raw coins.

@gtstang said:
If I was a new collector, I think I would be more confused than anything else by all of the letters being thrown around on this hobby.

Are there hobbies that don't have their own specific lingo and such?

There is no subject that doesn't have its own lingo. As I tell my students, taking 5 college courses is like taking 5 different languages simultaneously. Not only does each have its own language, they often have very different meanings. Look at one of our "special friends" who doesn't understand "original surfaces" as the term is used in numismatics.

How many people think that a 70 point grading scale makes sense? Just about every other collectible uses a "10" or "100" point scale. Wouldn't a newbie think that a coin that was a "65" had received a failing grade?

A printer's "proof" is more akin to a "pattern" coin which is similar to a stamp "essai".

You really want to go there...

I understand exactly what " original surfaces" means. You're the one claiming a coin with environmentally damaged surfaces, to borrow a phrase from Ricko, has original surfaces. You play in your numismatic metaverse making up your own reality. I'll play along with you to a certain extent but then let's get back to reality where words really mean something.

QED

mark_dak · December 20, 2021 7:53PM

@ReadyFireAim said:
Real men buy raw

You betcha' I'd buy raw gold all day long!

pmh1nic · December 20, 2021 8:07PM

@jmlanzaf said:

@pmh1nic said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@MasonG said:

@gtstang said:
but now that thought process seems to have morphed in that pcgs/ngc is no longer good enough if it does not have cac approval.

It's not good enough for some people, others are fine with just PCGS/NGC and some are even okay with raw coins.

@gtstang said:
If I was a new collector, I think I would be more confused than anything else by all of the letters being thrown around on this hobby.

Are there hobbies that don't have their own specific lingo and such?

There is no subject that doesn't have its own lingo. As I tell my students, taking 5 college courses is like taking 5 different languages simultaneously. Not only does each have its own language, they often have very different meanings. Look at one of our "special friends" who doesn't understand "original surfaces" as the term is used in numismatics.

How many people think that a 70 point grading scale makes sense? Just about every other collectible uses a "10" or "100" point scale. Wouldn't a newbie think that a coin that was a "65" had received a failing grade?

A printer's "proof" is more akin to a "pattern" coin which is similar to a stamp "essai".

You really want to go there...

I understand exactly what " original surfaces" means. You're the one claiming a coin with environmentally damaged surfaces, to borrow a phrase from Ricko, has original surfaces. You play in your numismatic metaverse making up your own reality. I'll play along with you to a certain extent but then let's get back to reality where words really mean something.

QED

KMB

PCGS and NGC ....both with CAC

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