Bullion vs. Collectable Coin --- UPDATED IN FIRST POST
MWallace
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I wrote the seller stating the problem with the coin. They asked for pictures. After seeing the pictures they agreed to replace the coin for me. I'll now name the seller. Kudos to Pinehurst Coins (eBay pinehurstcoins). And thanks to all of your opinions. They were really helpful and thought provocative.
Is a slabbed Silver Eagle bullion or a collectible coin? I totally understand when a seller, on eBay or otherwise, have a policy of "No Returns" on bullion, but when the "bullion" is slabbed, doesn't that change the coin from "bullion" to a "collectible coin"? I don't know, but I doubt silver or gold investors buy thousands of pieces of bullion that have been slabbed. I'm assuming they buy them raw in rolls or monster boxes. I add Silver Eagles to my collection as "types", not for bullion purposes, i.e. 1st year of issue, ground zero recovery, proof, reverse proof, 2021 T-2, etc.
I ask because I purchased a slabbed MS69 2021 T-2 Silver Eagle as a 1st year type. The seller states no return on bullion. The coin has 4 or 5 contact marks, all but one is well hidden. It's probably not really worth the trouble to return, but it made me think of the above question.
Comments
For me, it is a personal definition. Whether slabbed or not...some coins (such as the CC privy Morgan) are collectible, but may or may not be slabbed... I do not consider the 'not slabbed' as stacked bullion. On the other hand, I have often read posts that consider slabbed ASE's to be bullion. I believe you will receive answers similar to mine.... some favoring slabbing, some against it, some will not care.... Cheers, RickO
There's a big overlap when you are talking about collectable coins and bullion coins. Some examples are common date Morgan Dollars in circulated grades, common date double eagles, most modern commemorative gold and silver coins, etc. If in doubt, ask the seller if his coin is returnable before you buy it.
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"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Good question, never really thought about it. If it is slabbed it changes the trajectory of the item IMO from plain bullion to a collectable as the intent is that it will be added to a collection with the value added being the slabbing costs. If that makes sense
.
K
Depends on price. If you pay $1000 for an ounce of silver, it stops being bullion. If you pay $25 for a Morgan dollar, it's bullion
No offense, but you bought a slabbed 69 and got a slabbed 69. Unless the seller doctored the photos, I'm not sure what your complaint is.
From an ebay standpoint, it would probably depend on the category. If it were in the bullion category, it's bullion.
A coin can be both bullion and a collectable coin at the same time.
Mr_Spud
Many state's laws disagree.
That won’t stop people from collecting monetized bullion if they want to though. It also won’t stop people from using junk silver coins as bullion that the previous owner collected as part of a series.
Mr_Spud
I would think that a US minted item with a denomination on it, would be considered a coin. It is Legal Tender correct?
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It's usually "collectible coin" or "numismatic coin" versus bullion. It's a legal thing, more than anything. You can put bullion - including legal tender American Eagle Coins - in an IRA, for example, but you can't put an 1804 Dollar in your IRA. It's a grey area at times, but it is largely a question of whether price directly tracks the PM markets.
Depends on the intent. Each individual or entity can define bullion or collectible based on several criteria. Metal content, value, mintage, public perception etc. So there are variable definitions possible depending on the intent of the individual or entity.
The only thing that matters to eBay is eBay's definition of bullion and its policy relating to it. eBay sets the rules and you have to play by them.
Boy, as a seller I would hate these kind of issues. Someone buys an MS 69 from me, probably close to spot, and then nitpicks the appearance. I would love to say take it up with PCGS.
Now a 70, a whole different story from PCGS. From NGC, I would just expect less.
Bullion-no MM. collectible-MM. easy 😉
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
Bullion is in the eye of the beholder.
As for business strike SEs, it"s fair to call them bullion when raw, but when someone has paid to have it slabbed they intended it to be a collectable.
So, the dealer can't have it both ways (apart from whatever rules ebay might have).
ummm...no. Do I have to explain further?
If they are slabbing for authentication, it doesn't have to be "intended" to be a collectible.
Yes, correct. But my example mentioned SEs. Who is paying to authenticate SEs by slabbing them?
A lot of people.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/303964953366?_trkparms=ispr=1&hash=item46c5b91b16:g:INoAAOSwng1ge2-V&amdata=enc:AQAGAAACoPYe5NmHp%2B2JMhMi7yxGiTJkPrKr5t53CooMSQt2orsSzaVbXtmGxqmWnpn8RLN2q1nKO6Z9KwjEfzAH6zl%2BtHv3cSDybKM3w2aAr8wE2f%2BwAZOjbmz%2F19%2F4JPi8gXiVWeqbjnpfMgAgBlwioTtJtplMprgCvlpR1LQusMxqv6dIa8QOsmOydOpU%2BeF1DZ7DBnK%2FtYCyzsHtmc2w%2FKmB62xWkin7F5y4CPnDKg3A9bJ5ZCUOXWuiM2l1nogv4C9gKV%2BNVTj7GEPYZPUv1Z3p7CyeLCQwnFngWcGfa6fJZ%2BPNSl%2Bhu8sgPTjyjIFFEU1PoGmYiMQjhzZ5pfwHxlomu5Y8t9KD%2BvfAg89c3hB4Z2HTvaY6LCYAJ9WXS2L92MzzX7gLrwwjH0uD3%2BOMZFQLgv29LoOFRByIg3bDOJSoOKKW4BnCHKozPIwAkK8Jv8GNJ6%2FixHSPGynwO6LzNU9CzidKurL%2BBLJETNjeI8bKPbz%2BB1rnHO%2FpU3979RD%2FzkOkikPqpre9bhQ6A%2FOMR6YlG%2FRvlSzn3nJzogOYO9bhoTJ78wyKZCNip13y1IrNjkN5kWn1H%2F9toKl6yIPP23sxPNAOMApeZV0LW1%2FLEhrh7ulbsbzOYVYtpMoO6BfHJ9Nd8%2FpWFLxiFBfFiYCnJiKR%2FeYcljUEuD4kPZTtKLS7eLNn0BKWBqgxV7fW%2FJG4e8ZeUJp6y33pZ5I34vOQrHjc8wPjVj0A%2Fv76i0rDTiExPusLZsKzwnwbKc4l6xww%2FRwSxWoodDWBPbK51bQjghD4wOGs0n7j7HG6WpF0LWFbfcqlV4xjZrPDOx4cws1oFz7RaQ%2F4ogNy1ht%2FcXJavk9N%2Bnjjq4RbwqF%2BVy%2FLFNQcbf7qJvlkqu1PKLrgJOrMfaf55g%3D%3D|clp:2334524|tkp:BFBMnLa5hbRf
https://www.ebay.com/itm/133958518490?hash=item1f308cc6da:g:eoUAAOSwY49hsUcJ
As examples, see above. The proliferation of counterfeits has increased demand for certified bullion. They are not necessarily assigned a numerical grade (see above) but they could be depending on who submitted. Remember that it is very inexpensive for a bulk submitter to drop a monster box into the grading queue.
If you want a return option, why are you buying from a seller who doesn't offer one?
No offense taken, but this was one of those situations where they have dozens for sale and the photo in the listing is a sample photo, not of the actual coin one may get. I think everyone here will agree that not all 69's are equal, not all 64's are equal, not all XF's are equal, etc.. If they were there would be no need for ANY photos. Just look at the GTG posts here. Sometimes guesses are 4 and 5 points apart.
SNAD.
This belongs on the "why dealers drink" thread.
I have unslabbed bullion that I consider collectable, based on mintages, and such coins can develop a collectable premium because of collector demand.
I also have mint bullion that is designated "collectable bullion" even tho' some of them are not very collectable at all due to lack of demand and lower premiums.
In that light, I think that your slabbed MS69 2021 T-2 Silver Eagle as a 1st year type could be considered either.
I knew it would happen.
Is an MS69 that has some marks SNAD? And SNAD by whom? The seller? The TPG? Seems like it would be easier to buy from a seller who willingly accepts returns. But then, maybe that's just me.
May not be directly related but I once bought five California fractional tokens on eBay for fancy prices from someone with enough reputation as seller because it was listed under gold.
When the items arrived, it was found to be the knock off versions made out of cheap metal and seller refused to take it back.
Contacted eBay customer support because the listing was misleading and placed under gold.
A prompt refund was issued and there was some back and forth between the seller and myself who thought I was unaware of the items and I had to school him about dubious listing practices which was the end of discussion and have not seen that person on eBay again after that experience.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
SNAD is always in the eyes of the buyer. LOL.
I have an ASE year set in a Dansco album that I consider collectible coins. I have rolls of ASE in tubes that I consider bullion even though they are sorted by date. I also have slabbed MS70 ASE's with signature labels that I consider collectible but if I went to go to the local B&M he would probably want to offer me bullion prices.
Sure, I understand that. What I meant was- who is responsible for the "SNAD"? If sellers are expected to evaluate (and possibly dispute) the grades assigned by TPGs, what's the point of slabbing coins in the first place?
This one is easy, if the item has a high correlation to changing metal prices it is bullion, if the correlation is low, then it is not.
Oh. Well, that gets back to the "stock photo" issue.
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I think once it is slabbed, it becomes collectible.
I remember somewhere people discussed, what would happen if the 1933 repeats, people said slabbed gold bullion coins are "collectibles", so should be fine.
I agree but I'm asking what people think about slabbed "bullion". Doesn't it then become collectible more than bullion?
EXACTLY!!! Well put.
Good question. I usually don't but did this time. I need to stick with my personal policy.
This seller has hundreds, maybe thousands of slabbed SE. I'm sure the one I got wasn't especially picked out but was just the next one in their box.
That is not necessarily how the State would define them. There is plenty of slabbed bullion, especially when the State defines bullion as an object whose price floats with the PM markets. When an AGE or ASE has a price that moves in concert with the spot price, you will have a hard time convincing the taxing authorities that it is a numismatic item.
Also, as pointed out above, you can slab for authenticity alone. The slab alone cannot serve as the distinction.
This!
And this:
https://catalog.usmint.gov/coins/precious-metal-coins/bullion-coins.html
and this:
https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/investments-in-collectibles-in-individually-directed-qualified-plan-accounts
and this:
http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=(title:26 section:408 edition:prelim) OR (granuleid:USC-prelim-title26-section408)&f=treesort&edition=prelim&num=0&jumpTo=true#substructure-location_m
specifically:
(2) Collectible defined
For purposes of this subsection, the term "collectible" means-
(A) any work of art,
(B) any rug or antique,
(C) any metal or gem,
(D) any stamp or coin,
(E) any alcoholic beverage, or
(F) any other tangible personal property specified by the Secretary for purposes of this subsection.
(3) Exception for certain coins and bullion
For purposes of this subsection, the term "collectible" shall not include-
(A) any coin which is-
(i) a gold coin described in paragraph (7), (8), (9), or (10) of section 5112(a) of title 31, United States Code,
(ii) a silver coin described in section 5112(e) of title 31, United States Code,
(iii) a platinum coin described in section 5112(k) of title 31, United States Code, or
(iv) a coin issued under the laws of any State, or
Then, how about the intention of the owner as the distinction?
There are tons of coins (silver, gold for example) whose value is almost entirely determined by the spot price, but they are held and collected as collectables.
It really depends on the context. The IRS definition of collectible vs. bullion may not be the same as the collector's. And your State government may have its own definition that is different than the IRS definition. And, of course, eBay may have its own corporate definition.
5 contact marks is unacceptable to garner a ms69 grade. That should be ms68 at best using current grading practice at the major tpg companies. I would ask for an exchange from your seller, which most of the big guys are glad to accommodate with.
This is why I stop doing fee bay. They had all kinds of reasons to return not saying you are doing it but they would say they didn’t have the money anymore, dog push the buy it now button or PCGS got it wrong. Got burned on that one sent a MS-65 Buffalo he said it’s not a MS 65 so he will pay me MS-63 money. I said send it back he said no I want the coin I said send it back he then said ok then I rec just a label and he said next time you will ask for a signature confirmation thank you. I called eBay they said he sent it back we have a delivery confirmation and they give him his money back and he keep the coin. That was it I was done with them I sent them all the info and they kept saying he sent it back.
Hoard the keys.
Its a combo of both as it can have a considerable numismatic value above BV like say low pop MS70. I just consult CF for MV. The buyer when it sells can call it what they want. I don’t restrict returns (like if based on some definition like op seller example). Never had one returned anyhow.
Many collect slabbed ASE by date or say BD. My sell price could be based on simply cost plus or CF MV.
One customer collects slabbed MS70 Mexico Silver Onzas as they have very beautiful design (high demand coin both shows and online). They can trade $75 and up. She also has impressive set of Mexico slabbed 50 Peso Gold (sold her a couple).
Beyond that could care less - collectible means different things to different people.
There is not going to be a hard and fast rule. And there shouldn't.
Ebays definition will not fit all circumstance and gov and xyz bulk seller etc.
I would tend toward slabbed being coin, but as stated it could be slabbed for authentication, but since graded 69, not merely 'genuine' I think coin. Have you reached out to the seller? If they have many as you say they may be willing to swap it (makes for better feedback). But the seller didn't do the grading, probably states stock photo, and no returns, so really you received what you purchased. Gotta blame the TPG.
I think it’s both. I see some bullion buyers toss stuff around that I would not and they say it’s just gold or silver but to me it’s a coin not just metal.
Hoard the keys.
If it was struck to circulate at face value, it's a coin.
USAF (Ret) 1974 - 1994 - The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. Remembering RickO, a brother in arms.
Are you saying commemorative coins aren't coins?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
What about proof coins, NA and AI dollar coins, Kennedy half dollars 2002-2020 none of these were 'struck for circulation'
That’s right the new Morgan’s? Lol😉
Hoard the keys.
The A in PAMP literally means artistic so all their pretty gold bars are legally collectibles. Says so right there in their name.
I rest my case.