As for business strike SEs, it"s fair to call them bullion when raw, but when someone has paid to have it slabbed they intended it to be a collectable.
So, the dealer can't have it both ways (apart from whatever rules ebay might have).
The U. S. Mint strikes business SEs for use as bullion. Just because it is graded and put in plastic with First Strike or First Day or other nonsensical designations doesn't change the fact that they are just bullion and are only worth SE bullion price. This is very different from a NCSC. They be only worth bullion price but are not bullion.
As for business strike SEs, it"s fair to call them bullion when raw, but when someone has paid to have it slabbed they intended it to be a collectable.
So, the dealer can't have it both ways (apart from whatever rules ebay might have).
Just because it is graded and put in plastic with First Strike or First Day or other nonsensical designations doesn't change the fact that they are just bullion and are only worth SE bullion price.
Factually incorrect. Just check prices of various slabbed SEs (MS70, etc.), or of some earlier dates, the 1996 in particular.
I wish grading companies wouldn’t even grade bullion non-numismatic coins ... they are intended for investment, not collectors.
Why would you buy a bullion coin intended for investment and have it graded as if it was numismatic?
Just for money I guess but I do wish investment coins were not legal tender and not treated as collectibles.
As for business strike SEs, it"s fair to call them bullion when raw, but when someone has paid to have it slabbed they intended it to be a collectable.
So, the dealer can't have it both ways (apart from whatever rules ebay might have).
Just because it is graded and put in plastic with First Strike or First Day or other nonsensical designations doesn't change the fact that they are just bullion and are only worth SE bullion price.
Factually incorrect. Just check prices of various slabbed SEs (MS70, etc.), or of some earlier dates, the 1996 in particular.
@Che_Grapes said:
I wish grading companies wouldn’t even grade bullion non-numismatic coins ... they are intended for investment, not collectors.
Why would you buy a bullion coin intended for investment and have it graded as if it was numismatic?
Just for money I guess but I do wish investment coins were not legal tender and not treated as collectibles.
Lots of reasons. Most of them the same reasons as a numismatic coin: protection, authentication, to make them look the same as the rest of their collection, etc.
Isn’t the difference between bullion and collectibility just the premium?
Right now I’ve got Franklin halves that are collectible. If Silver goes to $60, they’re probably just bullion. If it drops to $10, they’re still collectible.
Potentially the difference could be set creation and/or appreciation, I suppose…but if the metal carried the value it would be collecting bullion until there was a numismatic premium.
@ShaunBC5 said:
Isn’t the difference between bullion and collectibility just the premium?
No. Circulated silver dimes are bullion but if you use them to fill holes in a coin album they can also be considered as a collectable.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@MWallace said:
Is a slabbed Silver Eagle bullion or a collectible coin?
When it comes to stopping returns, those can fall into the "bullion" category.
As you see from all the responses, it's a very slippery slope. Some bullion is collectable, some are slabbed, some are raw, it's a personal preference.
@Che_Grapes said:
Just for money I guess but I do wish investment coins were not legal tender and not treated as collectibles.
Why does it matter to you what other people collect?
Because I hate seeing people get ripped off. I know a guy who bought a 2014 bullion ASE for 70 dollars - I bought a tube of 20 for ~350 ... it was 20 of the exact same coins... I don’t make it my business but I don’t like seeing people get ripped off... that okay with you?
@MWallace said:
Is a slabbed Silver Eagle bullion or a collectible coin? I totally understand when a seller, on eBay or otherwise, have a policy of "No Returns" on bullion, but when the "bullion" is slabbed, doesn't that change the coin from "bullion" to a "collectible coin"? I don't know, but I doubt silver or gold investors buy thousands of pieces of bullion that have been slabbed. I'm assuming they buy them raw in rolls or monster boxes. I add Silver Eagles to my collection as "types", not for bullion purposes, i.e. 1st year of issue, ground zero recovery, proof, reverse proof, 2021 T-2, etc.
I ask because I purchased a slabbed MS69 2021 T-2 Silver Eagle as a 1st year type. The seller states no return on bullion. The coin has 4 or 5 contact marks, all but one is well hidden. It's probably not really worth the trouble to return, but it made me think of the above question.
No offense, but you bought a slabbed 69 and got a slabbed 69. Unless the seller doctored the photos, I'm not sure what your complaint is.
From an ebay standpoint, it would probably depend on the category. If it were in the bullion category, it's bullion.
No offense taken, but this was one of those situations where they have dozens for sale and the photo in the listing is a sample photo, not of the actual coin one may get. I think everyone here will agree that not all 69's are equal, not all 64's are equal, not all XF's are equal, etc.. If they were there would be no need for ANY photos. Just look at the GTG posts here. Sometimes guesses are 4 and 5 points apart.
If it's known the dealer is using stock photos, has a no return policy, and you get the grade that was advertised, I wouldn't except to be able to return. You may not like it but it seems fairly straight forward.
If you think it it's not really a MS69, perhaps it’s worth sending to our hosts for their grade guarantee?
@MWallace said:
Is a slabbed Silver Eagle bullion or a collectible coin? I totally understand when a seller, on eBay or otherwise, have a policy of "No Returns" on bullion, but when the "bullion" is slabbed, doesn't that change the coin from "bullion" to a "collectible coin"? I don't know, but I doubt silver or gold investors buy thousands of pieces of bullion that have been slabbed. I'm assuming they buy them raw in rolls or monster boxes. I add Silver Eagles to my collection as "types", not for bullion purposes, i.e. 1st year of issue, ground zero recovery, proof, reverse proof, 2021 T-2, etc.
I ask because I purchased a slabbed MS69 2021 T-2 Silver Eagle as a 1st year type. The seller states no return on bullion. The coin has 4 or 5 contact marks, all but one is well hidden. It's probably not really worth the trouble to return, but it made me think of the above question.
No offense, but you bought a slabbed 69 and got a slabbed 69. Unless the seller doctored the photos, I'm not sure what your complaint is.
From an ebay standpoint, it would probably depend on the category. If it were in the bullion category, it's bullion.
No offense taken, but this was one of those situations where they have dozens for sale and the photo in the listing is a sample photo, not of the actual coin one may get. I think everyone here will agree that not all 69's are equal, not all 64's are equal, not all XF's are equal, etc.. If they were there would be no need for ANY photos. Just look at the GTG posts here. Sometimes guesses are 4 and 5 points apart.
If it's known the dealer is using stock photos, has a no return policy, and you get the grade that was advertised, I wouldn't except to be able to return. You may not like it but it seems fairly straight forward.
If you think it it's not really a MS69, perhaps it’s worth sending to our hosts for their grade guarantee?
I never said it was our host. I intentionally didn't mention the TPG. As I said in a previous post, I don't normally buy from stock photos and/or No Returns. I took a chance this time and it has just reaffirmed my personal policy to not buy under those conditions. I'm not going to return it to the TPG. Postage alone would allow me to just purchase another.
I sent the seller a message this past Friday. I basically told them the problem and that I knew it was a No Return purchase on bullion. I didn't ask to return it. I'm curious what, if anything, they'll say. If they don't even reply that will determine my feedback. I'm not hard to get along with. I knew the conditions I bought it under. However, I started this post to see what others thought about bullion vs. collector coin. It's my opinion that once an ASE is slabbed, it's meant to be sold as a collector coin, not as bullion. Others have disagreed.
At times, I have bought slabbed silver eagles, that were the same price as the raw. If I can get a slabbed coin for the same price, or very close to the same price as the raw, I will take the slabbed. The slab provides proof of authenticity as well as protecting the coin.
@MWallace said:
Is a slabbed Silver Eagle bullion or a collectible coin? I totally understand when a seller, on eBay or otherwise, have a policy of "No Returns" on bullion, but when the "bullion" is slabbed, doesn't that change the coin from "bullion" to a "collectible coin"? I don't know, but I doubt silver or gold investors buy thousands of pieces of bullion that have been slabbed. I'm assuming they buy them raw in rolls or monster boxes. I add Silver Eagles to my collection as "types", not for bullion purposes, i.e. 1st year of issue, ground zero recovery, proof, reverse proof, 2021 T-2, etc.
I ask because I purchased a slabbed MS69 2021 T-2 Silver Eagle as a 1st year type. The seller states no return on bullion. The coin has 4 or 5 contact marks, all but one is well hidden. It's probably not really worth the trouble to return, but it made me think of the above question.
No offense, but you bought a slabbed 69 and got a slabbed 69. Unless the seller doctored the photos, I'm not sure what your complaint is.
From an ebay standpoint, it would probably depend on the category. If it were in the bullion category, it's bullion.
No offense taken, but this was one of those situations where they have dozens for sale and the photo in the listing is a sample photo, not of the actual coin one may get. I think everyone here will agree that not all 69's are equal, not all 64's are equal, not all XF's are equal, etc.. If they were there would be no need for ANY photos. Just look at the GTG posts here. Sometimes guesses are 4 and 5 points apart.
If it's known the dealer is using stock photos, has a no return policy, and you get the grade that was advertised, I wouldn't except to be able to return. You may not like it but it seems fairly straight forward.
If you think it it's not really a MS69, perhaps it’s worth sending to our hosts for their grade guarantee?
I never said it was our host. I intentionally didn't mention the TPG. As I said in a previous post, I don't normally buy from stock photos and/or No Returns. I took a chance this time and it has just reaffirmed my personal policy to not buy under those conditions. I'm not going to return it to the TPG. Postage alone would allow me to just purchase another.
I sent the seller a message this past Friday. I basically told them the problem and that I knew it was a No Return purchase on bullion. I didn't ask to return it. I'm curious what, if anything, they'll say. If they don't even reply that will determine my feedback. I'm not hard to get along with. I knew the conditions I bought it under. However, I started this post to see what others thought about bullion vs. collector coin. It's my opinion that once an ASE is slabbed, it's meant to be sold as a collector coin, not as bullion. Others have disagreed.
Are you going to neg the seller if he doesn't take the coin back? It sounds like your problem is with the grading service rather than the seller.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@MWallace said:
Is a slabbed Silver Eagle bullion or a collectible coin? I totally understand when a seller, on eBay or otherwise, have a policy of "No Returns" on bullion, but when the "bullion" is slabbed, doesn't that change the coin from "bullion" to a "collectible coin"? I don't know, but I doubt silver or gold investors buy thousands of pieces of bullion that have been slabbed. I'm assuming they buy them raw in rolls or monster boxes. I add Silver Eagles to my collection as "types", not for bullion purposes, i.e. 1st year of issue, ground zero recovery, proof, reverse proof, 2021 T-2, etc.
I ask because I purchased a slabbed MS69 2021 T-2 Silver Eagle as a 1st year type. The seller states no return on bullion. The coin has 4 or 5 contact marks, all but one is well hidden. It's probably not really worth the trouble to return, but it made me think of the above question.
No offense, but you bought a slabbed 69 and got a slabbed 69. Unless the seller doctored the photos, I'm not sure what your complaint is.
From an ebay standpoint, it would probably depend on the category. If it were in the bullion category, it's bullion.
No offense taken, but this was one of those situations where they have dozens for sale and the photo in the listing is a sample photo, not of the actual coin one may get. I think everyone here will agree that not all 69's are equal, not all 64's are equal, not all XF's are equal, etc.. If they were there would be no need for ANY photos. Just look at the GTG posts here. Sometimes guesses are 4 and 5 points apart.
If it's known the dealer is using stock photos, has a no return policy, and you get the grade that was advertised, I wouldn't except to be able to return. You may not like it but it seems fairly straight forward.
If you think it it's not really a MS69, perhaps it’s worth sending to our hosts for their grade guarantee?
I never said it was our host. I intentionally didn't mention the TPG. As I said in a previous post, I don't normally buy from stock photos and/or No Returns. I took a chance this time and it has just reaffirmed my personal policy to not buy under those conditions. I'm not going to return it to the TPG. Postage alone would allow me to just purchase another.
I sent the seller a message this past Friday. I basically told them the problem and that I knew it was a No Return purchase on bullion. I didn't ask to return it. I'm curious what, if anything, they'll say. If they don't even reply that will determine my feedback. I'm not hard to get along with. I knew the conditions I bought it under. However, I started this post to see what others thought about bullion vs. collector coin. It's my opinion that once an ASE is slabbed, it's meant to be sold as a collector coin, not as bullion. Others have disagreed.
Are you going to neg the seller if he doesn't take the coin back? It sounds like your problem is with the grading service rather than the seller.
I won't neg the seller if they will simply respond to me. At worse I may neutral for lack of communication. I have one question for you, do you buy coins sight unseen based on the grade on the slab? If you do, would you return the coin to the seller or consider it a done deal and keep the coin or send the coin to the TPG?
@MWallace said:
Is a slabbed Silver Eagle bullion or a collectible coin? I totally understand when a seller, on eBay or otherwise, have a policy of "No Returns" on bullion, but when the "bullion" is slabbed, doesn't that change the coin from "bullion" to a "collectible coin"? I don't know, but I doubt silver or gold investors buy thousands of pieces of bullion that have been slabbed. I'm assuming they buy them raw in rolls or monster boxes. I add Silver Eagles to my collection as "types", not for bullion purposes, i.e. 1st year of issue, ground zero recovery, proof, reverse proof, 2021 T-2, etc.
I ask because I purchased a slabbed MS69 2021 T-2 Silver Eagle as a 1st year type. The seller states no return on bullion. The coin has 4 or 5 contact marks, all but one is well hidden. It's probably not really worth the trouble to return, but it made me think of the above question.
No offense, but you bought a slabbed 69 and got a slabbed 69. Unless the seller doctored the photos, I'm not sure what your complaint is.
From an ebay standpoint, it would probably depend on the category. If it were in the bullion category, it's bullion.
No offense taken, but this was one of those situations where they have dozens for sale and the photo in the listing is a sample photo, not of the actual coin one may get. I think everyone here will agree that not all 69's are equal, not all 64's are equal, not all XF's are equal, etc.. If they were there would be no need for ANY photos. Just look at the GTG posts here. Sometimes guesses are 4 and 5 points apart.
If it's known the dealer is using stock photos, has a no return policy, and you get the grade that was advertised, I wouldn't except to be able to return. You may not like it but it seems fairly straight forward.
If you think it it's not really a MS69, perhaps it’s worth sending to our hosts for their grade guarantee?
I never said it was our host. I intentionally didn't mention the TPG. As I said in a previous post, I don't normally buy from stock photos and/or No Returns. I took a chance this time and it has just reaffirmed my personal policy to not buy under those conditions. I'm not going to return it to the TPG. Postage alone would allow me to just purchase another.
I sent the seller a message this past Friday. I basically told them the problem and that I knew it was a No Return purchase on bullion. I didn't ask to return it. I'm curious what, if anything, they'll say. If they don't even reply that will determine my feedback. I'm not hard to get along with. I knew the conditions I bought it under. However, I started this post to see what others thought about bullion vs. collector coin. It's my opinion that once an ASE is slabbed, it's meant to be sold as a collector coin, not as bullion. Others have disagreed.
Are you going to neg the seller if he doesn't take the coin back? It sounds like your problem is with the grading service rather than the seller.
I won't neg the seller if they will simply respond to me. At worse I may neutral for lack of communication. I have one question for you, do you buy coins sight unseen based on the grade on the slab? If you do, would you return the coin to the seller or consider it a done deal and keep the coin or send the coin to the TPG?
I don't buy from stock photos, nor do I buy sight unseen based on the grade on the slab label. Unless the coin turned or changed in the slab (MS70 with milk spots or PR70 cent with a fingerprint for example), I'd probably just keep it.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@MWallace said:
Is a slabbed Silver Eagle bullion or a collectible coin? I totally understand when a seller, on eBay or otherwise, have a policy of "No Returns" on bullion, but when the "bullion" is slabbed, doesn't that change the coin from "bullion" to a "collectible coin"? I don't know, but I doubt silver or gold investors buy thousands of pieces of bullion that have been slabbed. I'm assuming they buy them raw in rolls or monster boxes. I add Silver Eagles to my collection as "types", not for bullion purposes, i.e. 1st year of issue, ground zero recovery, proof, reverse proof, 2021 T-2, etc.
I ask because I purchased a slabbed MS69 2021 T-2 Silver Eagle as a 1st year type. The seller states no return on bullion. The coin has 4 or 5 contact marks, all but one is well hidden. It's probably not really worth the trouble to return, but it made me think of the above question.
No offense, but you bought a slabbed 69 and got a slabbed 69. Unless the seller doctored the photos, I'm not sure what your complaint is.
From an ebay standpoint, it would probably depend on the category. If it were in the bullion category, it's bullion.
No offense taken, but this was one of those situations where they have dozens for sale and the photo in the listing is a sample photo, not of the actual coin one may get. I think everyone here will agree that not all 69's are equal, not all 64's are equal, not all XF's are equal, etc.. If they were there would be no need for ANY photos. Just look at the GTG posts here. Sometimes guesses are 4 and 5 points apart.
If it's known the dealer is using stock photos, has a no return policy, and you get the grade that was advertised, I wouldn't except to be able to return. You may not like it but it seems fairly straight forward.
If you think it it's not really a MS69, perhaps it’s worth sending to our hosts for their grade guarantee?
I never said it was our host. I intentionally didn't mention the TPG.
Major TPGs have a grade guarantee you can use. So even if it’s not our hosts, the grade guarantee should be an option.
Do you think this coin is misgraded? Do you think it’s a low end 69 or it shouldn’t be in a 69 holder? This is a bit unclear to me right now.
As I said in a previous post, I don't normally buy from stock photos and/or No Returns. I took a chance this time and it has just reaffirmed my personal policy to not buy under those conditions. I'm not going to return it to the TPG. Postage alone would allow me to just purchase another.
I sent the seller a message this past Friday. I basically told them the problem and that I knew it was a No Return purchase on bullion. I didn't ask to return it. I'm curious what, if anything, they'll say. If they don't even reply that will determine my feedback. I'm not hard to get along with. I knew the conditions I bought it under.
Good luck. I hope the seller allows you to return it. Some do make exceptions.
However, I started this post to see what others thought about bullion vs. collector coin. It's my opinion that once an ASE is slabbed, it's meant to be sold as a collector coin, not as bullion. Others have disagreed.
To me, being slabbed doesn’t change classification between bullion or collector coin. People and TPGs can slab whatever they want and TPGs don’t have a policy to reject bullion.
If a TPG had an explicit, public policy to reject bullion, the seller and venue could still classify the item as bullion in my mind. The issue would need to be taken up with the TPG.
@PerryHall
As I said, I don't buy from stock photos or from sellers with No Return policy even with a photo. I didn't stick with my own policy this time, but it's the last time I'll sway from it. But my question to you is, even with a photo, if the coin doesn't meet your standards in hand, would you return to sender or pay the fees and high postage to send to the TPG?
All points well taken. Thank you. No, I don't believe the coin is a 69. I'm not upset at the seller, I'm not upset with the TPG. It's not that big of a deal to me. It's not that expensive of a coin. The purpose of me starting the thread was to see what others opinions are about bullion vs. collectors coins.
If seller listed in bullion category then he considers it bullion and his no return on bullion policy applies. If he listed it in another coin category he obviously does not consider it bullion and one could easily argue for a return.
Then there's the "not as described" return. If you feel the coin is misrepresented by the MS 69 grade then it is not as described.
USPS will not pay an insurance claim on bullion unless sent registered mail. They fail to define "bullion" so one could argue using the mint's definitions.
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
@derryb said:
If seller listed in bullion category then he considers it bullion and his no return on bullion policy applies. If he listed it in another coin category he obviously does not consider it bullion and one could easily argue for a return.
Then there's the "not as described" return. If you feel the coin is misrepresented by the MS 69 grade then it is not as described.
USPS will not pay an insurance claim on bullion unless sent registered mail. They fail to define "bullion" so one could argue using the mint's definitions.
Another consideration: Being TPG slabbed does not change an obviously bullion coin into a non-bullion coin. Many people collect graded and slabbed bullion coins.
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
My dealer had a guy with a MS70 or PF70 slabbed 1 oz American Gold Eagle. The dealer explained to the man that as far as he was concerned, slabbed or raw, bullion was bullion. The man accepted the same money for the slabbed coin, as he would have got from a raw coin.
So, if selling to a collector, you may be able to make a few bucks for the slabbed coin. However, most dealers probably will just pay the bullion value, regardless if slabbed or raw.
@derryb said:
Another consideration: Being TPG slabbed does not change an obviously bullion coin into a non-bullion coin. Many people collect graded and slabbed bullion coins.
However the dealer adds a hefty premium for "slabbed bullion". I buy them as collectible coins ($1 Face Value) but I fully understand that they're also sold as bullion, condition non withstanding. A VG Franklin Half is a collectible coin to some, bullion to others.
Investopedia does not disagree: "Bullion coins are physical coins made of precious metals."
True. That they are. But not all "physical coins made of previous metals" are merely bullion coins.
IRS recognizes all modern American Eagles as bullion and allows them to be held in a precious metal IRA.
Also true (I assume). But if they recognize all AEs as bullion then they are including many coins that are indisputably also classified as collector coins. Any further clarification would presumably come in court if there was a tax dispute.
I own a bunch of various raw SEs. If I ever decided to sell, I'd pick a date set out for my collection.
I own a few slabbed SEs that I all consider to be collector's items as they had a premium for one reason or another (grade, label, provenance, etc.).
I own a couple slabbed 1/10th ounce GEs that are sonewhere in between. The slab ensures authenticity (bullion) but if they are pretty enough I might treat them as collectables.
Some replies on this thread seem to be implying that once bullion, always bullion. I know that isn't true. Some coins develop value due to being a rare variety, etc., and they leave the realm of mere bullion.
@MWallace said:
Is a slabbed Silver Eagle bullion or a collectible coin? I totally understand when a seller, on eBay or otherwise, have a policy of "No Returns" on bullion, but when the "bullion" is slabbed, doesn't that change the coin from "bullion" to a "collectible coin"? I don't know, but I doubt silver or gold investors buy thousands of pieces of bullion that have been slabbed. I'm assuming they buy them raw in rolls or monster boxes. I add Silver Eagles to my collection as "types", not for bullion purposes, i.e. 1st year of issue, ground zero recovery, proof, reverse proof, 2021 T-2, etc.
I ask because I purchased a slabbed MS69 2021 T-2 Silver Eagle as a 1st year type. The seller states no return on bullion. The coin has 4 or 5 contact marks, all but one is well hidden. It's probably not really worth the trouble to return, but it made me think of the above question.
No offense, but you bought a slabbed 69 and got a slabbed 69. Unless the seller doctored the photos, I'm not sure what your complaint is.
From an ebay standpoint, it would probably depend on the category. If it were in the bullion category, it's bullion.
No offense taken, but this was one of those situations where they have dozens for sale and the photo in the listing is a sample photo, not of the actual coin one may get. I think everyone here will agree that not all 69's are equal, not all 64's are equal, not all XF's are equal, etc.. If they were there would be no need for ANY photos. Just look at the GTG posts here. Sometimes guesses are 4 and 5 points apart.
If it's known the dealer is using stock photos, has a no return policy, and you get the grade that was advertised, I wouldn't except to be able to return. You may not like it but it seems fairly straight forward.
If you think it it's not really a MS69, perhaps it’s worth sending to our hosts for their grade guarantee?
I never said it was our host. I intentionally didn't mention the TPG. As I said in a previous post, I don't normally buy from stock photos and/or No Returns. I took a chance this time and it has just reaffirmed my personal policy to not buy under those conditions. I'm not going to return it to the TPG. Postage alone would allow me to just purchase another.
I sent the seller a message this past Friday. I basically told them the problem and that I knew it was a No Return purchase on bullion. I didn't ask to return it. I'm curious what, if anything, they'll say. If they don't even reply that will determine my feedback. I'm not hard to get along with. I knew the conditions I bought it under. However, I started this post to see what others thought about bullion vs. collector coin. It's my opinion that once an ASE is slabbed, it's meant to be sold as a collector coin, not as bullion. Others have disagreed.
Are you going to neg the seller if he doesn't take the coin back? It sounds like your problem is with the grading service rather than the seller.
I won't neg the seller if they will simply respond to me. At worse I may neutral for lack of communication. I have one question for you, do you buy coins sight unseen based on the grade on the slab? If you do, would you return the coin to the seller or consider it a done deal and keep the coin or send the coin to the TPG?
I buy sight unseen all the time. That's what the "sight unseen" price is for.
There is no clear line that applies to every instance of a coin being or not being bullion. There are many interpretations. Some are based on what it was intended to be when it was created/sold and some are based on what it was intended to be when it was bought. What matters is how "bullion" is defined in the legal arena, i.e. insurance claims and IRAs.
If it is struck by or for a sovereign mint it can be a collector coin and/or a bullion coin. If it is a round or a bar it is unquestionably bullion.
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
Bullion can be a collectable especially when it comes to older poured silver bars. Check the prices of 3oz, 4oz, or 7oz Engelhard silver bars.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@Mr_Spud said:
A coin can be both bullion and a collectable coin at the same time.
Many state's laws disagree.
Many here agree.
Example
Slabbed ASE in a PCGS commemorative holder
Slabbed ASE in AU or less
Slabbed ASE stored for a while on top of a member's water heater (not mentioning names but he might cheerfully pipe up lol)
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
@Mr_Spud said:
A coin can be both bullion and a collectable coin at the same time.
Many state's laws disagree.
Many here agree.
Example
Slabbed ASE in a PCGS commemorative holder
Slabbed ASE in AU or less
Slabbed ASE stored for a while on top of a member's water heater (not mentioning names but he might cheerfully pipe up lol)
You can call it anything you want... until you're in court.
Many here consider all ASEs to be bullion, even proofs. I have no problem with that. But context matters. Ebay has there definition, yours doesn't matter. USPS has their definition, yours doesn't matter. IRS, State tax bureau, etc. All different contexts and the consensus opinion of this forum is irrelevant. The answer to the question depends on the context in which it is asked. Otherwise, hire a good lawyer.
@Mr_Spud said:
A coin can be both bullion and a collectable coin at the same time.
Many state's laws disagree.
Many here agree.
Example
Slabbed ASE in a PCGS commemorative holder
Slabbed ASE in AU or less
Slabbed ASE stored for a while on top of a member's water heater (not mentioning names but he might cheerfully pipe up lol)
You can call it anything you want... until you're in court.
Many here consider all ASEs to be bullion, even proofs. I have no problem with that. But context matters. Ebay has there definition, yours doesn't matter. USPS has their definition, yours doesn't matter. IRS, State tax bureau, etc. All different contexts and the consensus opinion of this forum is irrelevant. The answer to the question depends on the context in which it is asked. Otherwise, hire a good lawyer.
Like we're going to court on the BST this weekend 😅
Over and out
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
@MWallace said:
I sent the seller a message this past Friday. I basically told them the problem and that I knew it was a No Return purchase on bullion. I didn't ask to return it. I'm curious what, if anything, they'll say. If they don't even reply that will determine my feedback.
You told him about your problem but as others have noted, it's quite possible he doesn't consider it a problem himself. If you didn't ask him anything, perhaps he won't realize a reply is expected.
@MWallace said:
I sent the seller a message this past Friday. I basically told them the problem and that I knew it was a No Return purchase on bullion. I didn't ask to return it. I'm curious what, if anything, they'll say. If they don't even reply that will determine my feedback.
You told him about your problem but as others have noted, it's quite possible he doesn't consider it a problem himself. If you didn't ask him anything, perhaps he won't realize a reply is expected.
I guess people think differently, but if someone notified me they were unhappy with a purchase from me but didn't specifically ask a question, I think I would owe them a response of some kind. I guess others just don't think that way, but I do.
I ALWAYS try to do the right thing. A couple of weeks ago I purchased some items from a store. After I got home I realized they hadn't charged me for a $14 item. The next day I drove the 30 mile round trip to pay for it. I never even got as much as a Thank You. But that's OK because God and I both know I did the right thing.
@MWallace said:
I guess people think differently, but if someone notified me they were unhappy with a purchase from me but didn't specifically ask a question, I think I would owe them a response of some kind. I guess others just don't think that way, but I do.
If I was the seller, I wouldn't respond unless you had a question or a request. You made your point about your opinion of slabbed bullion and that you were unhappy with the coin you received. Unless I was willing to ignore the terms of sale and accept a return as a favor to you, there isn't much to say. If I attempt to explain how I see things, I expect it's likely you're going to see that as argumentative. Does that help? I wouldn't think so.
@Mr_Spud said:
A coin can be both bullion and a collectable coin at the same time.
Many state's laws disagree.
Many here agree.
Example
Slabbed ASE in a PCGS commemorative holder
Slabbed ASE in AU or less
Slabbed ASE stored for a while on top of a member's water heater (not mentioning names but he might cheerfully pipe up lol)
You can call it anything you want... until you're in court.
Many here consider all ASEs to be bullion, even proofs. I have no problem with that. But context matters. Ebay has there definition, yours doesn't matter. USPS has their definition, yours doesn't matter. IRS, State tax bureau, etc. All different contexts and the consensus opinion of this forum is irrelevant. The answer to the question depends on the context in which it is asked. Otherwise, hire a good lawyer.
Like we're going to court on the BST this weekend 😅
Over and out
This thread had nothing to do with the BST. It was an ebay issue.
@MWallace said:
I guess people think differently, but if someone notified me they were unhappy with a purchase from me but didn't specifically ask a question, I think I would owe them a response of some kind. I guess others just don't think that way, but I do.
If I was the seller, I wouldn't respond unless you had a question or a request. You made your point about your opinion of slabbed bullion and that you were unhappy with the coin you received. Unless I was willing to ignore the terms of sale and accept a return as a favor to you, there isn't much to say. If I attempt to explain how I see things, I expect it's likely you're going to see that as argumentative. Does that help? I wouldn't think so.
@MWallace said:
I guess people think differently, but if someone notified me they were unhappy with a purchase from me but didn't specifically ask a question, I think I would owe them a response of some kind. I guess others just don't think that way, but I do.
If I was the seller, I wouldn't respond unless you had a question or a request. You made your point about your opinion of slabbed bullion and that you were unhappy with the coin you received. Unless I was willing to ignore the terms of sale and accept a return as a favor to you, there isn't much to say. If I attempt to explain how I see things, I expect it's likely you're going to see that as argumentative. Does that help? I wouldn't think so.
I always respond. People expect it.
Recently, I had a customer complain that there were a couple marks on a proof gold set. He didn't actually ask a question. I responded that I was sorry to hear they were unhappy and they could feel free to return it using the ebay return system. They never responded to me or did anything. Lol.
@MWallace said:
I guess people think differently, but if someone notified me they were unhappy with a purchase from me but didn't specifically ask a question, I think I would owe them a response of some kind. I guess others just don't think that way, but I do.
If I was the seller, I wouldn't respond unless you had a question or a request. You made your point about your opinion of slabbed bullion and that you were unhappy with the coin you received. Unless I was willing to ignore the terms of sale and accept a return as a favor to you, there isn't much to say. If I attempt to explain how I see things, I expect it's likely you're going to see that as argumentative. Does that help? I wouldn't think so.
I always respond. People expect it.
Recently, I had a customer complain that there were a couple marks on a proof gold set. He didn't actually ask a question. I responded that I was sorry to hear they were unhappy and they could feel free to return it using the ebay return system. They never responded to me or did anything. Lol.
Good business practice that would bring me back as a customer.
@MWallace said:
I guess people think differently, but if someone notified me they were unhappy with a purchase from me but didn't specifically ask a question, I think I would owe them a response of some kind. I guess others just don't think that way, but I do.
If I was the seller, I wouldn't respond unless you had a question or a request. You made your point about your opinion of slabbed bullion and that you were unhappy with the coin you received. Unless I was willing to ignore the terms of sale and accept a return as a favor to you, there isn't much to say. If I attempt to explain how I see things, I expect it's likely you're going to see that as argumentative. Does that help? I wouldn't think so.
I always respond. People expect it.
Recently, I had a customer complain that there were a couple marks on a proof gold set. He didn't actually ask a question. I responded that I was sorry to hear they were unhappy and they could feel free to return it using the ebay return system. They never responded to me or did anything. Lol.
Good business practice that would bring me back as a customer.
I think manners matter, even in this very informal world.
Kind of what I thought about your message to the seller, wanting to return the coin but not being willing to actually ask.
You are 100% incorrect. You don't even know me. BTW, what did I write to the seller? How would you know what I said? I knowingly bought the coin knowing there were NO Returns. I'm owning it but won't make that mistake again. I couldn't be easier to deal with.
Comments
The U. S. Mint strikes business SEs for use as bullion. Just because it is graded and put in plastic with First Strike or First Day or other nonsensical designations doesn't change the fact that they are just bullion and are only worth SE bullion price. This is very different from a NCSC. They be only worth bullion price but are not bullion.
Overland Trail Collection Showcase
Dahlonega Type Set-2008 PCGS Best Exhibited Set
Factually incorrect. Just check prices of various slabbed SEs (MS70, etc.), or of some earlier dates, the 1996 in particular.
I wish grading companies wouldn’t even grade bullion non-numismatic coins ... they are intended for investment, not collectors.
Why would you buy a bullion coin intended for investment and have it graded as if it was numismatic?
Just for money I guess but I do wish investment coins were not legal tender and not treated as collectibles.
Rhe 96 trades higher raw also...
Lots of reasons. Most of them the same reasons as a numismatic coin: protection, authentication, to make them look the same as the rest of their collection, etc.
I don't know about that but I do like toned ASE proofs
A lot!
.
.
CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
.
Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
.
More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
Why does it matter to you what other people collect?
Isn’t the difference between bullion and collectibility just the premium?
Right now I’ve got Franklin halves that are collectible. If Silver goes to $60, they’re probably just bullion. If it drops to $10, they’re still collectible.
Potentially the difference could be set creation and/or appreciation, I suppose…but if the metal carried the value it would be collecting bullion until there was a numismatic premium.
No. Circulated silver dimes are bullion but if you use them to fill holes in a coin album they can also be considered as a collectable.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
When it comes to stopping returns, those can fall into the "bullion" category.
As you see from all the responses, it's a very slippery slope. Some bullion is collectable, some are slabbed, some are raw, it's a personal preference.
Because I hate seeing people get ripped off. I know a guy who bought a 2014 bullion ASE for 70 dollars - I bought a tube of 20 for ~350 ... it was 20 of the exact same coins... I don’t make it my business but I don’t like seeing people get ripped off... that okay with you?
Sure. You're free to worry about whatever you want. I just asked why, I didn't say you were wrong for doing it.
If it's known the dealer is using stock photos, has a no return policy, and you get the grade that was advertised, I wouldn't except to be able to return. You may not like it but it seems fairly straight forward.
If you think it it's not really a MS69, perhaps it’s worth sending to our hosts for their grade guarantee?
I never said it was our host. I intentionally didn't mention the TPG. As I said in a previous post, I don't normally buy from stock photos and/or No Returns. I took a chance this time and it has just reaffirmed my personal policy to not buy under those conditions. I'm not going to return it to the TPG. Postage alone would allow me to just purchase another.
I sent the seller a message this past Friday. I basically told them the problem and that I knew it was a No Return purchase on bullion. I didn't ask to return it. I'm curious what, if anything, they'll say. If they don't even reply that will determine my feedback. I'm not hard to get along with. I knew the conditions I bought it under. However, I started this post to see what others thought about bullion vs. collector coin. It's my opinion that once an ASE is slabbed, it's meant to be sold as a collector coin, not as bullion. Others have disagreed.
At times, I have bought slabbed silver eagles, that were the same price as the raw. If I can get a slabbed coin for the same price, or very close to the same price as the raw, I will take the slabbed. The slab provides proof of authenticity as well as protecting the coin.
Are you going to neg the seller if he doesn't take the coin back? It sounds like your problem is with the grading service rather than the seller.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I won't neg the seller if they will simply respond to me. At worse I may neutral for lack of communication. I have one question for you, do you buy coins sight unseen based on the grade on the slab? If you do, would you return the coin to the seller or consider it a done deal and keep the coin or send the coin to the TPG?
I don't buy from stock photos, nor do I buy sight unseen based on the grade on the slab label. Unless the coin turned or changed in the slab (MS70 with milk spots or PR70 cent with a fingerprint for example), I'd probably just keep it.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Major TPGs have a grade guarantee you can use. So even if it’s not our hosts, the grade guarantee should be an option.
Do you think this coin is misgraded? Do you think it’s a low end 69 or it shouldn’t be in a 69 holder? This is a bit unclear to me right now.
Good luck. I hope the seller allows you to return it. Some do make exceptions.
To me, being slabbed doesn’t change classification between bullion or collector coin. People and TPGs can slab whatever they want and TPGs don’t have a policy to reject bullion.
If a TPG had an explicit, public policy to reject bullion, the seller and venue could still classify the item as bullion in my mind. The issue would need to be taken up with the TPG.
@PerryHall
As I said, I don't buy from stock photos or from sellers with No Return policy even with a photo. I didn't stick with my own policy this time, but it's the last time I'll sway from it. But my question to you is, even with a photo, if the coin doesn't meet your standards in hand, would you return to sender or pay the fees and high postage to send to the TPG?
@Zoins
All points well taken. Thank you. No, I don't believe the coin is a 69. I'm not upset at the seller, I'm not upset with the TPG. It's not that big of a deal to me. It's not that expensive of a coin. The purpose of me starting the thread was to see what others opinions are about bullion vs. collectors coins.
Here's the coin in question:
If seller listed in bullion category then he considers it bullion and his no return on bullion policy applies. If he listed it in another coin category he obviously does not consider it bullion and one could easily argue for a return.
Then there's the "not as described" return. If you feel the coin is misrepresented by the MS 69 grade then it is not as described.
Definition of bullion depends on who is giving it.
US mint definition.
USPS will not pay an insurance claim on bullion unless sent registered mail. They fail to define "bullion" so one could argue using the mint's definitions.
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
I appreciate your viewpoint. Well put. Thank you.
Investopedia does not disagree: "Bullion coins are physical coins made of precious metals."
IRS recognizes all modern American Eagles as bullion and allows them to be held in a precious metal IRA.
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
Another consideration: Being TPG slabbed does not change an obviously bullion coin into a non-bullion coin. Many people collect graded and slabbed bullion coins.
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
My dealer had a guy with a MS70 or PF70 slabbed 1 oz American Gold Eagle. The dealer explained to the man that as far as he was concerned, slabbed or raw, bullion was bullion. The man accepted the same money for the slabbed coin, as he would have got from a raw coin.
So, if selling to a collector, you may be able to make a few bucks for the slabbed coin. However, most dealers probably will just pay the bullion value, regardless if slabbed or raw.
However the dealer adds a hefty premium for "slabbed bullion". I buy them as collectible coins ($1 Face Value) but I fully understand that they're also sold as bullion, condition non withstanding. A VG Franklin Half is a collectible coin to some, bullion to others.
In the eyes of many collectors a slabbed bullion coin has added value because of its authentification and preservation.
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
True. That they are. But not all "physical coins made of previous metals" are merely bullion coins.
Also true (I assume). But if they recognize all AEs as bullion then they are including many coins that are indisputably also classified as collector coins. Any further clarification would presumably come in court if there was a tax dispute.
I own a bunch of various raw SEs. If I ever decided to sell, I'd pick a date set out for my collection.
I own a few slabbed SEs that I all consider to be collector's items as they had a premium for one reason or another (grade, label, provenance, etc.).
I own a couple slabbed 1/10th ounce GEs that are sonewhere in between. The slab ensures authenticity (bullion) but if they are pretty enough I might treat them as collectables.
Some replies on this thread seem to be implying that once bullion, always bullion. I know that isn't true. Some coins develop value due to being a rare variety, etc., and they leave the realm of mere bullion.
Collectable:
Bullion:
The distinction between bullion and collectable is important wrt Safe Depost Boxes. Bullion not allowed in them.
I buy sight unseen all the time. That's what the "sight unseen" price is for.
There is no clear line that applies to every instance of a coin being or not being bullion. There are many interpretations. Some are based on what it was intended to be when it was created/sold and some are based on what it was intended to be when it was bought. What matters is how "bullion" is defined in the legal arena, i.e. insurance claims and IRAs.
If it is struck by or for a sovereign mint it can be a collector coin and/or a bullion coin. If it is a round or a bar it is unquestionably bullion.
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
Doesn't the private Scottsdale Mint in Arizona make legal tender coins for Caribbean Islands?
https://www.scottsdalemint.com/eastern-caribbean-8/
Then there's the Royal Candian Mint BARS that are legal tender.
https://www.jmbullion.com/1-2-oz-royal-canadian-mint-legal-tender-gold-bars-new-w-assay/
I still have serious legal questions..
Bullion can be a collectable especially when it comes to older poured silver bars. Check the prices of 3oz, 4oz, or 7oz Engelhard silver bars.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Many here agree.
Example
Slabbed ASE in a PCGS commemorative holder
Slabbed ASE in AU or less
Slabbed ASE stored for a while on top of a member's water heater (not mentioning names but he might cheerfully pipe up lol)
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
You can call it anything you want... until you're in court.
Many here consider all ASEs to be bullion, even proofs. I have no problem with that. But context matters. Ebay has there definition, yours doesn't matter. USPS has their definition, yours doesn't matter. IRS, State tax bureau, etc. All different contexts and the consensus opinion of this forum is irrelevant. The answer to the question depends on the context in which it is asked. Otherwise, hire a good lawyer.
Like we're going to court on the BST this weekend 😅
Over and out
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
Not all coins are round.
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
You told him about your problem but as others have noted, it's quite possible he doesn't consider it a problem himself. If you didn't ask him anything, perhaps he won't realize a reply is expected.
I guess people think differently, but if someone notified me they were unhappy with a purchase from me but didn't specifically ask a question, I think I would owe them a response of some kind. I guess others just don't think that way, but I do.
I ALWAYS try to do the right thing. A couple of weeks ago I purchased some items from a store. After I got home I realized they hadn't charged me for a $14 item. The next day I drove the 30 mile round trip to pay for it. I never even got as much as a Thank You. But that's OK because God and I both know I did the right thing.
If I was the seller, I wouldn't respond unless you had a question or a request. You made your point about your opinion of slabbed bullion and that you were unhappy with the coin you received. Unless I was willing to ignore the terms of sale and accept a return as a favor to you, there isn't much to say. If I attempt to explain how I see things, I expect it's likely you're going to see that as argumentative. Does that help? I wouldn't think so.
This thread had nothing to do with the BST. It was an ebay issue.
WOW!! Just WOW!!
I always respond. People expect it.
Recently, I had a customer complain that there were a couple marks on a proof gold set. He didn't actually ask a question. I responded that I was sorry to hear they were unhappy and they could feel free to return it using the ebay return system. They never responded to me or did anything. Lol.
Good business practice that would bring me back as a customer.
I think manners matter, even in this very informal world.
Kind of what I thought about your message to the seller, wanting to return the coin but not being willing to actually ask.
You are 100% incorrect. You don't even know me. BTW, what did I write to the seller? How would you know what I said? I knowingly bought the coin knowing there were NO Returns. I'm owning it but won't make that mistake again. I couldn't be easier to deal with.