@Dnice8 said:
Thank you @BryceM I am a little overwhelmed right now, but I read your information, and it was helpful - thank you!
She has a memory problem, yes, but her husband does not and, thankfully, he was there when she handed them over. She is an Attorney, and we both work at a Law Firm handling estates, so we've got that end covered insofar as taxes are concerned. Yay!
I am in the middle of trying to figure out how to separate these in a way that makes sense, and then I am going to bed for the night. I am tired! I will look at this again tomorrow with fresh eyes!
Thank you all so much for you help. You've been wonderful.
OH! I am in Houston, TX.
Perhaps they are very wealthy and decided that after 40 years of friendship they wanted to make this gift to you. Stranger things have happened. Value is relative. Maybe a $100,000 collection represents a small percentage of their wealth.
I would roughly value the collection and then sit down and discuss it with them. Make sure they are aware of the value and then I would draft a document wherein the coins are listed with prices so that you can get the transfer confirmed in writing and they should both sign it.
Of course, it's Texas - They somehow think everything is bigger in Texas (or so I've heard)!
It's probably some little Podunk town.
As a former resident of Houston, let me tell you, it IS BIG coz it takes quite a while to get from one end to that city to the other even in smooth flowing traffic, the kind of time it takes to drive across a state like Rhode Island or cross more than half of Connecticut etc.
Even the podunk one horse towns in Texas are also sort of big in comparison to those in West Virginia or New Jersey and so on since it is the largest state in US mainland and second largest in the US of A with 268,596 square miles after Alaska.
My friend, you are in a potential snake pit. Are these legally yours to sell?
Do you have written instructions from the owner to sell them? Is the owner of sound mind?
@jmlanzaf said:
If you want to give it back, just get out of the middreconsider,
Go back to her. Tell her the collection is worth over $100k and you don't feel right about taking it. If she insists, then it's yours and proceed accordingly. If she reconsiders, simply return it and let the family deal with it. If she wants to split it more broadly, including her children, then do that.
You do not need any further information to have that discussion.
Appreciate the advice. I am not asking how to deal with the family. I have already made her aware. I am now trying to understand the value of the collection, and how to get appraisals, etc., so that I can help her navigate a decision that is in her best interest. This is far out of her arena, she is a family friend of 40+ years, and if I can be of assistance to her, I will do whatever I can. Thanks again 😀
My point is that I would NOT get appraisals or do anything. It's over 100k. That's the only number you need. Otherwise, you are more firmly entrenched in the middle of what could become an ugly family squabble. Big numbers change dynamics.
After having read your posts, my understanding is that you’re looking for guidance that you can provide to your co-worker friend - you’re not looking to sell the collection.
Some of the coins would benefit from professional grading, while many others (such as the Krugerrands) would not.
If or when the coins are going to be sold, a number of them would likely merit public auction, while many others would not.
Of the coins you’ve mentioned and/or shown pictures of, the very large portion of the value is in the gold coins. Generally speaking, coins such as Proof Eisenhower dollars and Proof sets from the 1960’s and more recent time periods, will represent only a tiny percentage of the overall value. Unless the Morgan dollars (1878-1921) and Peace dollars (1921-1935) are rare dates and/or in exceptional condition, their value will also be dwarfed by that of most of the gold coins.
You or your friend can obtain a ballpark value for the collection, as well as recommendations regarding professional grading and auction vs. direct sale, without spending thousands of dollars for a formal appraisal.
You’ve been given the names of some excellent companies. If I can be of assistance, feel free to message me.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
There is a lot of gold bullion here, and that is driving up the value in today’s market. What you choose to do it up to you, but if one option is paying her, I would be careful. If the price of gold falls to its previous levels or something similar, you could get burned badly. Approach this like you would if you were going to a dealer to buy the coins? Is now a good time to be buying gold? I an leery, but that’s just me.
More than 10 years ago, a customer gave me a group of k-rands to sell so that he could buy an expensive coin. I went to the Winter FUN show to sell them. Only one dealer would give me an offer, and that was a little under the melt price. I don’t know if that seemly now foolish market condition applies, but it’s one more thing to bear in mind.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@Dnice8 Yes, welcome aboard! Slow down, take a breath. This is a huge, valuable collection. I think you need to spend some time with it, catalog them. Sort them. Get organized. Perhaps this collection should be sorted into smaller selections that make more sense. If you don't have time to spend with it, then perhaps an outside appraisal. If you believe it inappropriate to keep them, perhaps you should talk to the kids, see what their take on all this is. Whatever you decide, don't be in a hurry and listen very carefully to some of the wonderful advice already dished out here for you.....don't clean them!! Good luck!
I think it's time for folks to quit pushing auction houses! Why hasn't anyone referred her to AMPEX or the like? It's absolutely just giving money away to sell bullion through an auction venue!
@Dnice8 said:
I am now trying to understand the value of the collection
Simple answer: Don't even try. Seriously. You need to get appraisals (more than one). That will give you the info you need. Anything else will just get in the way.
Pick at least two and contact them. As others have said, you UNQUESTIONABLY have over $100K in value. Any auction house would be happy to talk to you and they will walk you through the next steps.
If you live in a large city (I didn't see an answer to that), you may have the option of a local appraisal also. You'll still want to get at least two opinions, though.
@amwldcoin said:
I think it's time for folks to quit pushing auction houses! Why hasn't anyone referred her to AMPEX or the like? It's absolutely just giving money away to sell bullion through an auction venue!
As is generally known, I work for an auction house. I still advise people not to consign bullion and bullion related coins to auction. Fortunately, I haven’t seen anyone in this thread directly suggest auction for bullion coins.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Hmmm, while I know Stacks and Heritage have other options, Great Collections to my knowledge is strictly a Certified Coin Auction venue.
Hopefully you have steered her to someone who will separate the Bullion from the coins with a collector premium and the wheat from the shaft on the non bullion items!
Actually since she seems to be able to take adequate photos, the members here could do that with an inventory list and photos of those that merit. Obviously then she could be told which direction to take, authentication, certification, sell for bullion, etc.
@amwldcoin said:
I think it's time for folks to quit pushing auction houses! Why hasn't anyone referred her to AMPEX or the like? It's absolutely just giving money away to sell bullion through an auction venue!
As is generally known, I work for an auction house. I still advise people not to consign bullion and bullion related coins to auction. Fortunately, I haven’t seen anyone in this thread directly suggest auction for bullion coins.
Lots of good advice given here, I'd listen to folks like @MFeld and @BryceM. You mentioned you live in Houston. There is a good coin shop there called US Coins, juts off of I-10 near exit 761. I've visited that shop several times, they are very reputable. If you are shopping around for selling that gold, give them a call or bring a few of the coins by there.
This is the kind of thread that makes this site worthwhile. Lots of good advice here for a real "gem" of a lady.
You do need a good appraisal (or two), so that's a first step. The Krugerrands are easy to value, some of the other gold coins need a professional evaluation.
Yes, I'd listen to MFeld & BryceM (as are several others here), both are expert and ethical. Good Luck!
What a great thread.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
This was not an "inheritance" ... she is still very much alive. Her diminished mental capacity is key and could subject you to real problems. Your best bet would be to return everything, sit down her when she seems to be in a good mental state and have her, not you, devise a way to convert the coin collection to cash, all of which would be deposited into her account. If she offers you an amount for helping her then that is fine but make sure it is something she agrees to.
Many of the coins you show have a lot of value. This needs to be handled seriously and in a completely above board manner. Do not put yourself in a position of having to spend your own money on solving this problem.
I suggest you consult your attorney, especially her family decides fight you for it. I would keep lid on sharing knowledge of this and seek legal advice how proceed.
It’s a really huge astounding amount of value and nice coins. Perhaps make a spreadsheet inventory of it with columns for bullion wt and an est for MV. It’s your choice what to do. I would not do an appraisal I would price it out myself, sit on it.
Furthermore I have no desire get involved in a family fight / possible litigation, especially with something that’s mine. Selling to some big gun millionaire coin dealership - this is how they make their money. I don’t believe this was her intent. She wanted you to have it - why not keep it in honor of her memory and respect her decision. How would she feel on the other side seeing you giving it away to some big gun rich dealer? And then paying the proceeds to people not in her final wishes / will. My gosh if anything it would make a nice beginning inventory setting up at shows / selling online. What a fantastic way honor her wish for you. However, it’s your decision.
Take your time make any decision. She gave it to u. It’s yours. Consult your attorney in event of any fight or questions as to legality of the gift. Find out where you stand on this. I would take my sweet time. Put it away somewhere safe.
Her heirs could be gearing up challenge this in court. It’s like a country giving away a major part of its territory to u which borders multiple potential enemies. You don’t think they are not going to fight you for it? I sure as heck would. You give it away some big gun dealer what happens when they come after you? This looks like something they may challenge.
Calculate its value on your own if possible. I would not share that with anybody but my attorney. I know many in coin club, victims of the oil price crash barely getting by - a gift like this would be like an unbelievable godsend to get out of the hole. You must be really wealthy.
I'd also recommend Mark Feld at Heritage in Dallas, a former lawyer as well. If both the lady who turned them over to you as well as yourself are licensed lawyers I would look at the code of ethics to avoid violations and confer with senior professionals as well.
You and she should be aware that she will have to include the gift in her income tax return for this year since the value is obviously over $15,000. Form 709 will be required. The good news is that there shouldn't be any actual tax due since she can use part of the "lifetime federal gift and estate tax exclusion" (currently $11.7 million over a lifetime). She will need to consult with a tax professional. Depending on her mental facilities, it may become complicated.
@amwldcoin said:
I think it's time for folks to quit pushing auction houses! Why hasn't anyone referred her to AMPEX or the like? It's absolutely just giving money away to sell bullion through an auction venue!
As is generally known, I work for an auction house. I still advise people not to consign bullion and bullion related coins to auction. Fortunately, I haven’t seen anyone in this thread directly suggest auction for bullion coins.
It's also worth pointing out that reputable auction houses will sell the bullion outside of an auction for their clients. They don't automatically put entire collections into their auctions. They try to do the best for their clients.
Very honorable approach and sage advice by many, but I want to chip in and share a small recent experience of my own.
My aunt suffers from Alzheimer's and after my uncle passed in April, have been taking care of all her financial needs like setting up the trust funds etc. because of being entrusted with the POA (I am like the son they never had and she has three daughters from first marriage).
Her three daughters do not agree with most of the decisions but as instructed by my uncle (mother's older brother) before his passing, I am doing everything in my power to protect easy access to the money or else it will get squandered away.
After selling her home, she desired to give something to her five grandkids and thought that the PAMP suisse bars in my possession would be a great gift and paid for it by wire transfer from the bank branch where she had gone with her eldest daughter.
A month later when her middle daughter asked her, she told "I am not sure why he gave me five because of asking him only for three for my daughters". Since the youngest and oldest were privy to the conversation, the issue was resolved amicably.
Bottom line: Be very specific and transparent with this whole deal because it can go sour very quickly with the heirs, possible legal wrangles, tax implications, flagged by IRS and so forth.
Every step needs to be taken after very thoughtful consideration.
All the best.
Welcome to the forum. I'm late to the discussion and have nothing to add except that I think it's great that a place like this is provided by our hosts, and exists for people with a common interest, and that we can come together and share and learn about this hobby/business. You've certainly got me interested. Hoping to hear the "rest of the story" here someday.
... She gave it to u. It’s yours. Consult your attorney in event of any fight or questions as to legality of the gift. Find out where you stand on this. I would take my sweet time. Put it away somewhere safe. Her heirs could be gearing up challenge this in court. It’s like a country giving away a major part of its territory to u which borders multiple potential enemies. You don’t think they are going to fight you for it?...
>
Despite your apparent views and advice, in case you somehow missed her posts, @Dnice8 doesn’t feel that the coins are hers, to do with as she pleases. And she doesn’t want to keep them from the family.
Among other things, she posted:
“I am concerned that she gave me a collection that is highly valuable, and I believe it is inappropriate of me to keep them, as they should go to her kids, family, or be sold and the money go to her estate.”
“I don't think it is appropriate at all. She is elderly and gave them to me solely because her kids didn't want the "silly coin collection", as they put it. Her kids are not collectors, so they have no idea the value nor have they even seen the collection. She is unaware as well. She figured it should go to me since I have just recently (in the past few years) gotten into collecting, and she wanted them to go to someone who would want to look at them. If they were just some cool coins that were worth a couple hundred here or there, then I would keep them.”
“I do not believe she meant any money in this amount to go to me.”
“I am now trying to understand the value of the collection, and how to get appraisals, etc., so that I can help her navigate a decision that is in her best interest. This is far out of her arena, she is a family friend of 40+ years, and if I can be of assistance to her, I will do whatever I can.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I agree with consulting an attorney, but only in order to know the best legal avenue in which to proceed, especially if her memory is not 100%. The cost of a consult with an attorney and the cost of a couple appraisals are a moot point.
Now that older lady is aware of the significant value of the coins, she needs to be involved with the decision no matter which direction it takes. If the objective is to provide for her kids, then the costs of making it happen should be borne by the value of the coins.
Lastly, if this becomes costly to the OP in terms of time & money, the OP needs to be compensated in some way. I think that the right person is handling the situation in a very competent way. Make sure to document every step along the way, legally.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
@MarkKelley said:
I would recommend that you contact Nachbar Rare Coins at 716-635-9700. Richard Nachbar passed away earlier this year but the company's reputation is impeccable. Also, they will travel to you if the value of the collection warrants it. Failing that, I would probably go with Great Collections. Take your time, do your research and don't make hasty decisions. Good luck.
Texas has many quality coin dealers, not sure why you would recommend one up near Niagara Falls. Sorry to hear that Mr. Nachbar passed away.
Any coins with numismatic value should be certified prior to sale, and not at auction with the common date $20 gold coins usually as the auction premiums would cut into profits greatly. Heritage or US Coins could get coins warranting it certified prior to purchase.
i think going forward with the knowledge known now, Dnice8 sounds like she is saying the family now knows what's up, and there will be some mutual talking.
I'll bet the coin collection isn't silly anymore and the family is looking forward to their show and tell.
I realize that you are probably overwhelmed with advice given here. My only suggestion is to take is slowly and work out a plan. My best suggestion is what others have suggested: talking with Mark Feld....great guy and he'll guide you well. He's been around a long time, had his own dealership and was a professional coin grader. You can't go wrong there....
Unless the old lady's got dementia, I'm calling BS on this post. Think about it, my wife / kids know nothing about coin collecting however, if I drop dead tomorrow, they know that my collection is worth a lot of money and not going to give it away to a friend of the family.
Common sense ain't so common anymore
Wisdom has been chasing you but, you've always been faster
Agree with all what a problem to have, but I’m sure you will do the right thing. That is a big and nice gift to get from some one. Thank you for sharing hope it all works out for everyone.
Hmmmm, when Heritage sold a lot of my Russian collection years ago about 10K was bullion related and sold for melt...which they got their cut out of! My bad!
@amwldcoin said:
I think it's time for folks to quit pushing auction houses! Why hasn't anyone referred her to AMPEX or the like? It's absolutely just giving money away to sell bullion through an auction venue!
As is generally known, I work for an auction house. I still advise people not to consign bullion and bullion related coins to auction. Fortunately, I haven’t seen anyone in this thread directly suggest auction for bullion coins.
It's also worth pointing out that reputable auction houses will sell the bullion outside of an auction for their clients. They don't automatically put entire collections into their auctions. They try to do the best for their clients.
@amwldcoin said:
Hmmmm, when Heritage sold a lot of my Russian collection years ago about 10K was bullion related and sold for melt...which they got their cut out of! My bad!
My bad for just default suggesting an auction house appraisal
Bullion goes to an honest bullion dealer-coin-shop
It is very overwhelming but to make it easier for whomever is going to sell it, I'd separate the wheat from the chaff. (That's probably not the best metaphor, since the "chaff" in this case is likely the most valuable.)
The krugerrands are just widgets. Very valuable ones, but with a recognized value tied to the spot price of gold.
Other coins in the collection are collector coins where specific grades are key.
Still others are collector coins with nominal value.
No reason to stress over all three groups of coins equally.
@Mizzou said:
Unless the old lady's got dementia, I'm calling BS on this post. Think about it, my wife / kids know nothing about coin collecting however, if I drop dead tomorrow, they know that my collection is worth a lot of money and not going to give it away to a friend of the family.
Common sense ain't so common anymore
Please excuse us for trying to possibly help someone. Your situation obviously should dictate that we pay no attention to anyone else's possible difficulties. Our mistake.
@Mizzou said:
Unless the old lady's got dementia, I'm calling BS on this post. Think about it, my wife / kids know nothing about coin collecting however, if I drop dead tomorrow, they know that my collection is worth a lot of money and not going to give it away to a friend of the family.
Common sense ain't so common anymore
Did you read everything that @Dnice8 posted? Common sense tells me that she didn’t say anything which warranted your rude post.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Growing old doesn't make you stupid. Even if the old lady didn't know anything about coins, she must have grown up in the early 1900's when gold coins were still being circulated and would know they're valuable.
The other day there was a post on the metal detecting forum (Amazing squirreled away stash found in Arizona) that everyone swallowed and turned out to be total BS also.
Wisdom has been chasing you but, you've always been faster
It's pretty obvious that many people who post here haven't really read the thread. To possibly help, here's some stuff we know.
The giver is an attorney herself.
The OP and the giver work together in a law firm.
Both the OP and the giver are familiar with estate law and inheritance tax issues.
The giver wanted her dad's collection to go to someone who would appreciate them.
The giver's husband is perfectly lucid and was present when the coins were given to the OP
The OP lives in the Houston area
The OP, realizing the enormity of the gift, isn't sure the family realized the inherent value of the coins or intended to gift her something of such value.
The OP feels that it would be best to get the value of the coins back within the family of the giver.
What we don't know:
The relative net worth of the family
The moral character of potential heirs
The specific motives of the giver
The nature of the relationship between the giver and the OP
Seems to me that for certain families and certain friends, a gift like this could be entirely ordinary and appropriate. If that's what it is, the gesture is incredibly sweet and kind. For other families, it would represent life-changing wealth beyond belief.
To the OP: Coin collectors in general have a bit of "hidden treasure" mentality and often daydream about stumbling across a stash of pirate gold. If there's a general air of excitement surrounding this thread, that's why. I realize this situation is a bit stressful to you, but it's enormously entertaining to us. Sorry. It's just the nature of things here.
If it was me, I'd get the coins back to the person who gave them to me right away and make perfectly clear that there is considerable value to the collection and to not do anything to or with the coins until a more thorough evaluation can be made as to the best way to proceed.
If you're willing, you can offer your assistance in figuring these things out but what you don't want happening is having someone in the family say "I remember seeing a [insert a specific coin here] one time, where is it now?"
@Mizzou said:
Growing old doesn't make you stupid. Even if the old lady didn't know anything about coins, she must have grown up in the early 1900's when gold coins were still being circulated and would know they're valuable.
My grandparents (long gone ) remembered those days. My elderly parents, on the other hand, were born after the 1933 gold ban.
Very, very few people alive today would remember gold coins circulating. They would have to be around 100 years old, at least.
That said, everyone should know that gold is valuable.
@amwldcoin said:
Hmmmm, when Heritage sold a lot of my Russian collection years ago about 10K was bullion related and sold for melt...which they got their cut out of! My bad!
@amwldcoin said:
I think it's time for folks to quit pushing auction houses! Why hasn't anyone referred her to AMPEX or the like? It's absolutely just giving money away to sell bullion through an auction venue!
As is generally known, I work for an auction house. I still advise people not to consign bullion and bullion related coins to auction. Fortunately, I haven’t seen anyone in this thread directly suggest auction for bullion coins.
It's also worth pointing out that reputable auction houses will sell the bullion outside of an auction for their clients. They don't automatically put entire collections into their auctions. They try to do the best for their clients.
Heritage posts bullion sales all the time that don't run through their auction operation. If they auctioned your coins, it's because they thought it would do better than bullion.
@BryceM said:
It's pretty obvious that many people who post here haven't really read the thread. To possibly help, here's some stuff we know.
The giver is an attorney herself.
The OP and the giver work together in a law firm.
Both the OP and the giver are familiar with estate law and inheritance tax issues.
The giver wanted her dad's collection to go to someone who would appreciate them.
The giver's husband is perfectly lucid and was present when the coins were given to the OP
The OP lives in the Houston area
The OP, realizing the enormity of the gift, isn't sure the family realized the inherent value of the coins or intended to gift her something of such value.
The OP feels that it would be best to get the value of the coins back within the family of the giver.
What we don't know:
The relative net worth of the family
The moral character of potential heirs
The specific motives of the giver
The nature of the relationship between the giver and the OP
Seems to me that for certain families and certain friends, a gift like this could be entirely ordinary and appropriate. If that's what it is, the gesture is incredibly sweet and kind. For other families, it would represent life-changing wealth beyond belief.
To the OP: Coin collectors in general have a bit of "hidden treasure" mentality and often daydream about stumbling across a stash of pirate gold. If there's a general air of excitement surrounding this thread, that's why. I realize this situation is a bit stressful to you, but it's enormously entertaining to us. Sorry. It's just the nature of things here.
Those who don't read the thread won't read this. Lol
@Dnice8 said:
Thank you @BryceM I am a little overwhelmed right now, but I read your information, and it was helpful - thank you!
She has a memory problem, yes, but her husband does not and, thankfully, he was there when she handed them over. She is an Attorney, and we both work at a Law Firm handling estates, so we've got that end covered insofar as taxes are concerned. Yay!
I am in the middle of trying to figure out how to separate these in a way that makes sense, and then I am going to bed for the night. I am tired! I will look at this again tomorrow with fresh eyes!
Thank you all so much for you help. You've been wonderful.
OH! I am in Houston, TX.
Definitely some interesting tax questions.
Gift tax in play?
Acquired basis negating taxable profit?
Dividing up and gifting of the coins directly to the potential heirs who would acquire them without the tax hit the donor would otherwise face?
You as an intermediary having acquired them without tax consequence to the gift giver now able to sell them without her having had to pay capital gains and now you can gift the sale proceeds to the potential heirs within the limits of the gift tax allowances?
Since both you and her "work at a Law Firm handling estates" perhaps one or more of the above considerations was already in mind?
@BryceM said:
It's pretty obvious that many people who post here haven't really read the thread. To possibly help, here's some stuff we know.
The giver is an attorney herself.
The OP and the giver work together in a law firm.
Both the OP and the giver are familiar with estate law and inheritance tax issues.
The giver wanted her dad's collection to go to someone who would appreciate them.
The giver's husband is perfectly lucid and was present when the coins were given to the OP
The OP lives in the Houston area
The OP, realizing the enormity of the gift, isn't sure the family realized the inherent value of the coins or intended to gift her something of such value.
The OP feels that it would be best to get the value of the coins back within the family of the giver.
What we don't know:
The relative net worth of the family
The moral character of potential heirs
The specific motives of the giver
The nature of the relationship between the giver and the OP
Seems to me that for certain families and certain friends, a gift like this could be entirely ordinary and appropriate. If that's what it is, the gesture is incredibly sweet and kind. For other families, it would represent life-changing wealth beyond belief.
To the OP: Coin collectors in general have a bit of "hidden treasure" mentality and often daydream about stumbling across a stash of pirate gold. If there's a general air of excitement surrounding this thread, that's why. I realize this situation is a bit stressful to you, but it's enormously entertaining to us. Sorry. It's just the nature of things here.
if all this is true, why the term inherited in title?
Comments
Perhaps they are very wealthy and decided that after 40 years of friendship they wanted to make this gift to you. Stranger things have happened. Value is relative. Maybe a $100,000 collection represents a small percentage of their wealth.
I would roughly value the collection and then sit down and discuss it with them. Make sure they are aware of the value and then I would draft a document wherein the coins are listed with prices so that you can get the transfer confirmed in writing and they should both sign it.
As a former resident of Houston, let me tell you, it IS BIG coz it takes quite a while to get from one end to that city to the other even in smooth flowing traffic, the kind of time it takes to drive across a state like Rhode Island or cross more than half of Connecticut etc.
Even the podunk one horse towns in Texas are also sort of big in comparison to those in West Virginia or New Jersey and so on since it is the largest state in US mainland and second largest in the US of A with 268,596 square miles after Alaska.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
That is an impressive amount of gold.
The 1884 Morgan doesn't happen to be an S mint coin, does it?
Collector, occasional seller
My friend, you are in a potential snake pit. Are these legally yours to sell?
Do you have written instructions from the owner to sell them? Is the owner of sound mind?
.
My point is that I would NOT get appraisals or do anything. It's over 100k. That's the only number you need. Otherwise, you are more firmly entrenched in the middle of what could become an ugly family squabble. Big numbers change dynamics.
Hello @Dnice8,
After having read your posts, my understanding is that you’re looking for guidance that you can provide to your co-worker friend - you’re not looking to sell the collection.
Some of the coins would benefit from professional grading, while many others (such as the Krugerrands) would not.
If or when the coins are going to be sold, a number of them would likely merit public auction, while many others would not.
Of the coins you’ve mentioned and/or shown pictures of, the very large portion of the value is in the gold coins. Generally speaking, coins such as Proof Eisenhower dollars and Proof sets from the 1960’s and more recent time periods, will represent only a tiny percentage of the overall value. Unless the Morgan dollars (1878-1921) and Peace dollars (1921-1935) are rare dates and/or in exceptional condition, their value will also be dwarfed by that of most of the gold coins.
You or your friend can obtain a ballpark value for the collection, as well as recommendations regarding professional grading and auction vs. direct sale, without spending thousands of dollars for a formal appraisal.
You’ve been given the names of some excellent companies. If I can be of assistance, feel free to message me.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Dnice8.... Welcome aboard. I recommend you take the advice from @MFeld.... He can be of great help and has a sterling reputation. Cheers, RickO
There is a lot of gold bullion here, and that is driving up the value in today’s market. What you choose to do it up to you, but if one option is paying her, I would be careful. If the price of gold falls to its previous levels or something similar, you could get burned badly. Approach this like you would if you were going to a dealer to buy the coins? Is now a good time to be buying gold? I an leery, but that’s just me.
More than 10 years ago, a customer gave me a group of k-rands to sell so that he could buy an expensive coin. I went to the Winter FUN show to sell them. Only one dealer would give me an offer, and that was a little under the melt price. I don’t know if that seemly now foolish market condition applies, but it’s one more thing to bear in mind.
@Dnice8 Yes, welcome aboard! Slow down, take a breath. This is a huge, valuable collection. I think you need to spend some time with it, catalog them. Sort them. Get organized. Perhaps this collection should be sorted into smaller selections that make more sense. If you don't have time to spend with it, then perhaps an outside appraisal. If you believe it inappropriate to keep them, perhaps you should talk to the kids, see what their take on all this is. Whatever you decide, don't be in a hurry and listen very carefully to some of the wonderful advice already dished out here for you.....don't clean them!! Good luck!
I think it's time for folks to quit pushing auction houses! Why hasn't anyone referred her to AMPEX or the like? It's absolutely just giving money away to sell bullion through an auction venue!
As is generally known, I work for an auction house. I still advise people not to consign bullion and bullion related coins to auction. Fortunately, I haven’t seen anyone in this thread directly suggest auction for bullion coins.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Hmmm, while I know Stacks and Heritage have other options, Great Collections to my knowledge is strictly a Certified Coin Auction venue.
Hopefully you have steered her to someone who will separate the Bullion from the coins with a collector premium and the wheat from the shaft on the non bullion items!
Actually since she seems to be able to take adequate photos, the members here could do that with an inventory list and photos of those that merit. Obviously then she could be told which direction to take, authentication, certification, sell for bullion, etc.
Lots of good advice given here, I'd listen to folks like @MFeld and @BryceM. You mentioned you live in Houston. There is a good coin shop there called US Coins, juts off of I-10 near exit 761. I've visited that shop several times, they are very reputable. If you are shopping around for selling that gold, give them a call or bring a few of the coins by there.
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
This is the kind of thread that makes this site worthwhile. Lots of good advice here for a real "gem" of a lady.
You do need a good appraisal (or two), so that's a first step. The Krugerrands are easy to value, some of the other gold coins need a professional evaluation.
Yes, I'd listen to MFeld & BryceM (as are several others here), both are expert and ethical. Good Luck!
What a great thread.
I knew it would happen.
This was not an "inheritance" ... she is still very much alive. Her diminished mental capacity is key and could subject you to real problems. Your best bet would be to return everything, sit down her when she seems to be in a good mental state and have her, not you, devise a way to convert the coin collection to cash, all of which would be deposited into her account. If she offers you an amount for helping her then that is fine but make sure it is something she agrees to.
Many of the coins you show have a lot of value. This needs to be handled seriously and in a completely above board manner. Do not put yourself in a position of having to spend your own money on solving this problem.
I suggest you consult your attorney, especially her family decides fight you for it. I would keep lid on sharing knowledge of this and seek legal advice how proceed.
It’s a really huge astounding amount of value and nice coins. Perhaps make a spreadsheet inventory of it with columns for bullion wt and an est for MV. It’s your choice what to do. I would not do an appraisal I would price it out myself, sit on it.
Furthermore I have no desire get involved in a family fight / possible litigation, especially with something that’s mine. Selling to some big gun millionaire coin dealership - this is how they make their money. I don’t believe this was her intent. She wanted you to have it - why not keep it in honor of her memory and respect her decision. How would she feel on the other side seeing you giving it away to some big gun rich dealer? And then paying the proceeds to people not in her final wishes / will. My gosh if anything it would make a nice beginning inventory setting up at shows / selling online. What a fantastic way honor her wish for you. However, it’s your decision.
Take your time make any decision. She gave it to u. It’s yours. Consult your attorney in event of any fight or questions as to legality of the gift. Find out where you stand on this. I would take my sweet time. Put it away somewhere safe.
Her heirs could be gearing up challenge this in court. It’s like a country giving away a major part of its territory to u which borders multiple potential enemies. You don’t think they are not going to fight you for it? I sure as heck would. You give it away some big gun dealer what happens when they come after you? This looks like something they may challenge.
Calculate its value on your own if possible. I would not share that with anybody but my attorney. I know many in coin club, victims of the oil price crash barely getting by - a gift like this would be like an unbelievable godsend to get out of the hole. You must be really wealthy.
US Coins is in Houston, they are often at the larger coin shows as well. https://uscoinsandjewelry.com/
I'd also recommend Mark Feld at Heritage in Dallas, a former lawyer as well. If both the lady who turned them over to you as well as yourself are licensed lawyers I would look at the code of ethics to avoid violations and confer with senior professionals as well.
You and she should be aware that she will have to include the gift in her income tax return for this year since the value is obviously over $15,000. Form 709 will be required. The good news is that there shouldn't be any actual tax due since she can use part of the "lifetime federal gift and estate tax exclusion" (currently $11.7 million over a lifetime). She will need to consult with a tax professional. Depending on her mental facilities, it may become complicated.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
It's also worth pointing out that reputable auction houses will sell the bullion outside of an auction for their clients. They don't automatically put entire collections into their auctions. They try to do the best for their clients.
Very honorable approach and sage advice by many, but I want to chip in and share a small recent experience of my own.
My aunt suffers from Alzheimer's and after my uncle passed in April, have been taking care of all her financial needs like setting up the trust funds etc. because of being entrusted with the POA (I am like the son they never had and she has three daughters from first marriage).
Her three daughters do not agree with most of the decisions but as instructed by my uncle (mother's older brother) before his passing, I am doing everything in my power to protect easy access to the money or else it will get squandered away.
After selling her home, she desired to give something to her five grandkids and thought that the PAMP suisse bars in my possession would be a great gift and paid for it by wire transfer from the bank branch where she had gone with her eldest daughter.
A month later when her middle daughter asked her, she told "I am not sure why he gave me five because of asking him only for three for my daughters". Since the youngest and oldest were privy to the conversation, the issue was resolved amicably.
Bottom line: Be very specific and transparent with this whole deal because it can go sour very quickly with the heirs, possible legal wrangles, tax implications, flagged by IRS and so forth.
Every step needs to be taken after very thoughtful consideration.
All the best.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
Welcome to the forum. I'm late to the discussion and have nothing to add except that I think it's great that a place like this is provided by our hosts, and exists for people with a common interest, and that we can come together and share and learn about this hobby/business. You've certainly got me interested. Hoping to hear the "rest of the story" here someday.
>
Despite your apparent views and advice, in case you somehow missed her posts, @Dnice8 doesn’t feel that the coins are hers, to do with as she pleases. And she doesn’t want to keep them from the family.
Among other things, she posted:
“I am concerned that she gave me a collection that is highly valuable, and I believe it is inappropriate of me to keep them, as they should go to her kids, family, or be sold and the money go to her estate.”
“I don't think it is appropriate at all. She is elderly and gave them to me solely because her kids didn't want the "silly coin collection", as they put it. Her kids are not collectors, so they have no idea the value nor have they even seen the collection. She is unaware as well. She figured it should go to me since I have just recently (in the past few years) gotten into collecting, and she wanted them to go to someone who would want to look at them. If they were just some cool coins that were worth a couple hundred here or there, then I would keep them.”
“I do not believe she meant any money in this amount to go to me.”
“I am now trying to understand the value of the collection, and how to get appraisals, etc., so that I can help her navigate a decision that is in her best interest. This is far out of her arena, she is a family friend of 40+ years, and if I can be of assistance to her, I will do whatever I can.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I agree with consulting an attorney, but only in order to know the best legal avenue in which to proceed, especially if her memory is not 100%. The cost of a consult with an attorney and the cost of a couple appraisals are a moot point.
Now that older lady is aware of the significant value of the coins, she needs to be involved with the decision no matter which direction it takes. If the objective is to provide for her kids, then the costs of making it happen should be borne by the value of the coins.
Lastly, if this becomes costly to the OP in terms of time & money, the OP needs to be compensated in some way. I think that the right person is handling the situation in a very competent way. Make sure to document every step along the way, legally.
I knew it would happen.
Texas has many quality coin dealers, not sure why you would recommend one up near Niagara Falls. Sorry to hear that Mr. Nachbar passed away.
Any coins with numismatic value should be certified prior to sale, and not at auction with the common date $20 gold coins usually as the auction premiums would cut into profits greatly. Heritage or US Coins could get coins warranting it certified prior to purchase.
Can't wait to see how this collection pans out.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
interesting morning replies.
i think going forward with the knowledge known now, Dnice8 sounds like she is saying the family now knows what's up, and there will be some mutual talking.
I'll bet the coin collection isn't silly anymore and the family is looking forward to their show and tell.
@Dnice8
I realize that you are probably overwhelmed with advice given here. My only suggestion is to take is slowly and work out a plan. My best suggestion is what others have suggested: talking with Mark Feld....great guy and he'll guide you well. He's been around a long time, had his own dealership and was a professional coin grader. You can't go wrong there....
Best of luck.
jom
Unless the old lady's got dementia, I'm calling BS on this post. Think about it, my wife / kids know nothing about coin collecting however, if I drop dead tomorrow, they know that my collection is worth a lot of money and not going to give it away to a friend of the family.
Common sense ain't so common anymore
Wisdom has been chasing you but, you've always been faster
Agree with all what a problem to have, but I’m sure you will do the right thing. That is a big and nice gift to get from some one. Thank you for sharing hope it all works out for everyone.
Hoard the keys.
Oh gosh
Ignore the negative nellies
You are getting a whirlwind of advice
Keep asking questions if you have them and you can get help separating the wheat from the chaff here too.
Hmmmm, when Heritage sold a lot of my Russian collection years ago about 10K was bullion related and sold for melt...which they got their cut out of! My bad!
My bad for just default suggesting an auction house appraisal
Bullion goes to an honest bullion dealer-coin-shop
A lot of good advice in the posts above.
It is very overwhelming but to make it easier for whomever is going to sell it, I'd separate the wheat from the chaff. (That's probably not the best metaphor, since the "chaff" in this case is likely the most valuable.)
The krugerrands are just widgets. Very valuable ones, but with a recognized value tied to the spot price of gold.
Other coins in the collection are collector coins where specific grades are key.
Still others are collector coins with nominal value.
No reason to stress over all three groups of coins equally.
Please excuse us for trying to possibly help someone. Your situation obviously should dictate that we pay no attention to anyone else's possible difficulties. Our mistake.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't no optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
Did you read everything that @Dnice8 posted? Common sense tells me that she didn’t say anything which warranted your rude post.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Growing old doesn't make you stupid. Even if the old lady didn't know anything about coins, she must have grown up in the early 1900's when gold coins were still being circulated and would know they're valuable.
The other day there was a post on the metal detecting forum (Amazing squirreled away stash found in Arizona) that everyone swallowed and turned out to be total BS also.
Wisdom has been chasing you but, you've always been faster
Early 1900s?
Circulating gold?
She’d be well over 100!
It's pretty obvious that many people who post here haven't really read the thread. To possibly help, here's some stuff we know.
What we don't know:
Seems to me that for certain families and certain friends, a gift like this could be entirely ordinary and appropriate. If that's what it is, the gesture is incredibly sweet and kind. For other families, it would represent life-changing wealth beyond belief.
To the OP: Coin collectors in general have a bit of "hidden treasure" mentality and often daydream about stumbling across a stash of pirate gold. If there's a general air of excitement surrounding this thread, that's why. I realize this situation is a bit stressful to you, but it's enormously entertaining to us. Sorry. It's just the nature of things here.
If it was me, I'd get the coins back to the person who gave them to me right away and make perfectly clear that there is considerable value to the collection and to not do anything to or with the coins until a more thorough evaluation can be made as to the best way to proceed.
If you're willing, you can offer your assistance in figuring these things out but what you don't want happening is having someone in the family say "I remember seeing a [insert a specific coin here] one time, where is it now?"
My grandparents (long gone
) remembered those days. My elderly parents, on the other hand, were born after the 1933 gold ban.
Very, very few people alive today would remember gold coins circulating. They would have to be around 100 years old, at least.
That said, everyone should know that gold is valuable.
Heritage posts bullion sales all the time that don't run through their auction operation. If they auctioned your coins, it's because they thought it would do better than bullion.
Those who don't read the thread won't read this. Lol
Definitely some interesting tax questions.
Gift tax in play?
Acquired basis negating taxable profit?
Dividing up and gifting of the coins directly to the potential heirs who would acquire them without the tax hit the donor would otherwise face?
You as an intermediary having acquired them without tax consequence to the gift giver now able to sell them without her having had to pay capital gains and now you can gift the sale proceeds to the potential heirs within the limits of the gift tax allowances?
Since both you and her "work at a Law Firm handling estates" perhaps one or more of the above considerations was already in mind?
if all this is true, why the term inherited in title?
I’d say “inherited” or “gift” is no matter if the lot is being returned.
I imagine a lot of us remember that time. I had a chance to purchase raw $20 Libs for $500/ea at a gun show in 2005. Price seemed too high!
THUMP....THUMP_THUMP . . . . . . .. . The sound of people falling off of the turnip truck
Wisdom has been chasing you but, you've always been faster
If you’re hearing that sound, my bet is that it’s from you digging an even deeper hole for yourself in your unfounded accusation.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.