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Willie Mays finally getting his due...
mintonlypls
Posts: 1,744 ✭✭✭✭✭
In the current Memory Lane Auction...a 1961 Willie Mays PSA-9 is outpacing a 1961 Mickey Mantle PSA-9 $14,000+ to $13,000+, respectively.
mint_only_pls
3
mintonlypls
Posts: 1,744 ✭✭✭✭✭
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Huge if true
Best five tool player of all time. He hit 660 HRs lifetime, even though he lost almost two seasons in his prime due to military service. Give him those 274 games back and he would have been the first to beat Babe Ruth's HR record.
It's likely far more a Registry issue, for that particular card, than being indicative of some larger trend.
Instagram: mattyc_collection
1961 Mays PSA 10 - 1
1961 Mays PSA 9 - 38
1961 Mantle PSA 10 - 1
1961 Mantle PSA 9 - 71
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
Always an interesting thought regarding the HR record. He needed 55 HR in basically 1.5 years very early on. My guess is that the HR record would have extra motivated him at the end of his career and he would have been the all time leader in the 1971 or 72 season. His late 60's seasons were the reason that he did not really approach the record. He simply starting getting old. He started awful in 1972 in San Fran. He actually hit decently in NY in 1972.
In which he no longer holds.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
Tough to make any inferences with more than two weeks left for bidding.
Records broken while taking steroids don't count in my book...
I was referring to Bonds, not Aaron, by the way. And I also stated that he would have been the FIRST to beat Babe Ruth's HR record, so I'm not sure why you made the comment in the first place.
The only book that counts is the official record book. Sorry.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
2-3 years ago...a 1961 Willie Mays PSA-9 could be bought for ~$2500, now a PSA-9 is approaching $20,000! An 8x increase!
I met him once at a show. He was a total DICK. JMO.
I guess you don't count Aaron either as he was a PED user...
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
This ^
Card values are based on a lot of different factors - career statistics, city the player played in, era they played in, number of championships, high # or low #, condition sensitivity of the set… To say a players cards should be strictly tied to numbers and stats would make sense, but with collectors that is not always the case.
Honus Wagner is not the greatest player of all time but the valuation of his rookie card does not care. Mantle does not have the most home runs, highest average, nor any career all time numbers, but play in NYC during an era where TV came of age and be the Bo Jackson of your generation as the fastest and strongest player with tons of World Series Championships and you are the most collected player in the hobby. Plus as the above poster stated if you ever met Mays he is an absolute jerk so collectors have a reason to shy away from him - no matter how much he is getting pumped in this thread.
I agree. had a similar experience. only MLB player who would not let me photograph him signing a baseball.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Baloney, you must be under 40 to make such a stupid comment. Aaron was strong from working his butt off as a teenager. He used to haul huge blocks of ice, which built up his arms and made him strong. Do some research before posting lies about a dead man.
Sorry, but Bonds, McGwire and Sosa will always have an asterisk next to any of their records and none of them will ever be in the Hall of Fame. Cheating is never acceptable in any sport.
Of course the problem with your argument with respect to Bonds (and Clemens) is that there are already players in the Hall who are far worse and have just as strong arguments for "cheating". I'm not convinced that McGwire or Sosa was good enough to get in regardless.
Incorrect. Aaron was an admitted PED user. not a stupid comment when the man himself admitted it. no lies, but it sure seems your vision is clouded by hero worship.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
incorrect again. there are absolutely no asterisks in the official record book. you know, the one that has Aaron 2nd all-time in home runs.
by the way, for accuracy's sake, Steroids were not "cheating" in MLB until 2005 when it was collectively bargained between the players union and MLB.
Fay Vincents memo in 1991 was in no way a "rule" outlawing steroids. he said so himself. there was no rule until it was collectively bargained.
maybe you should do a little more research.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
…although they were considered illegal drugs in the United States at the time, were they not? You could not legally purchase anabolic steroids legally?
Not trying to get your goat here.
Just adding to the conversation that it was illegal in the federal sense which makes it a crime on its face, regardless of if the MLB had an official policy on it or testing for it.
And there’s a good reason guys weren’t out there being like, “Yo, kids, you want to make the majors? I got a tip for you!”
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
@craig44
The whole thing is and was a mess and MLB turned a blind eye for too long a time. It’s certainly a hard era to put into context and even harder to ignore as there’s so many great players attached rightly or wrongly.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
could be similar to my state's stance on Pot. federally illegal, but we have 13 head shops in town where people can go buy pot anytime they want.
as far as official rules go, there are no official rules until they are collectively bargained. legal or illegal, it was not officially against the "rules" until 2005. that applies to HGH, amphetamines, andro all of it.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I have followed baseball and played my entire life, and have never heard Aaron ever state he used PED’s nor has anyone every accused him of doing so. Show me where he has ever stated he used anabolic steroids? They were not even readily available until the last 70’s/early 80’s - paging Brian Downing. Pick up line 3.
Aaron admitted only to taking a greenie - once. Not exactly giving Canseco a run for his money.
Aaron admitted to taking greenies.
Amphetamines are ABSOLUTELY PEDs. there is no debate on that.
if you think Hank only used once, well, I have some beachfront property in Nebraska to sell you...
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
sorry, that last line was directed to PaulMaul.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Can someone post a picture of some high grade 1961 Mays and Mantle cards?? Some how this turned into Steroids and hat sizes increasing every year from 1999 to 2006.
If you are equating using greenies to using steroids you have obviously not played sports and don’t understand how they work. Played ball with several guys that used roids and they were a huge advantage and provided a massive improvement in terms of strength, bat speed, recovery…. Nice strawman trying to malign Aaron and trying to equate his possibly using greenies with a substance like steroids which were illegal hence that is cheating, and ask Bonds, Clemens, and McGwire how they enjoy getting into the Hall by having to buy a ticket.
what in the world difference does it make if I ever did or didnt play sports? (and I absolutely did) Are people only allow to debate or make judgements on the things they have themselves personally done? that is a logical fallacy.
If you dont understand what amphetamines can do for an athlete, you sir, must never have played the game. ask chris davis if you dont believe me.
define cheating. let me do it for you. breaking the rules in order to gain an unfair advantage. well, unfortunately, there were no rules in MLB against steroids or any other PED until 2005. Im sorry you want there to be one, but there was not. during the 2004 off season, it was collectively bargained and the rule came into effect for the 2005 season. anyone could take anything pre 2005 and there wasnt anything at all against the rules. that goes for admitted users: Mcgwire, camanitti, ARod etc. those who didnt admit, but there is good evidence: bonds. and also for your apparent heros like Henry Aaron.
now you need a medical exemption for amphetamine use. if they did nothing for athletic performance, why the medical exemption?
As far as Clemens, why is he lumped in with PED users? No hard evidence for him, no failed tests, just one disgruntled employee who mitchell put the screws to. irregardless, pre-2005, it really wouldnt matter if Clemens used steroids by the gallon, it wasnt against the rules.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Here is a 1961 Mantle...don't know why it is only a PSA-7.5.
many site Fay Vincents "memo" from 1991 as evidence there was a rule against PED. there was not.
Here are Vincent's own words about PED
the "memo" was intended as a "moral statement" to the players, not a "legal one"
"the only was a change could be made was through collective bargaining" "When I left baseball, there was no written policy on drug activity in baseball"
Steroids were banned in 2005. HGH was banned in 2011. I believe Amphetamines were in 2007.
Sorry, it was not cheating. It was not against the rules.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
And just to put this in context... this guy thinks Roger Clemens was totally clean his entire career. 🙄
care to provide evidence he wasn't
just because the news media says something over and over and over and over doesnt make it true.
do some research.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I totally agree, but sometimes it is true. And believe it or not... sometimes people confess to things that aren't true at all.
Just seems like you jumped off a cliff into a large ocean of assumptions when you suggested Aaron was a regular user of PEDs. Seemed like appropriate time to provide some context to your comments for others, since context is very important to how one should interpret things.
That's all... carry on... I'm done. 👋
Do you think every player in the Hall was clean?
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
The Earth is flat. The Moon landing was faked. Clemens was clean.
Just don’t get dragged into these arguments. You’ll never convince the other side.
Are Ivan Rodriguez and Mike Piazza still in the Hall?
are you saying henry aaron admitted to using PED when in fact he didn't? sure seems unlikely.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
This is what Aaron said:
“Actually the 1968 season wasn't the best time to present my case. It was the first time since my rookie year that I didn't drive in or scored 100 runs. I was so frustrated that at one point I tried using a pep pill-a greenie-that one of my teamates gave me. When that thing took hold, I thought I was having a heart attack. It was a stupid thing to do, and besides that, I shouldn't have been so concerned about my hitting in the first place. Nobody was hitting in 1968. That was the year of the pitcher - Drysdale's streak of scoreless innings and Bob Gibson's 1.12 earned run average."
Of course we don’t know if he was being truthful, but that’s what he said.
No, not at all. First paragraph was strictly a response to "just because the news media says something over and over and over and over doesnt make it true". I made a second paragraph to address Aaron admitting to taking greenies once... and you leaping to the conclusion he was a regular user... while there is absolutely zero circumstantial evidence or hearsay to back that claim.
A majority of players used greenies from the 70s until they finally took a stand on them a few years back. Clubhouses had coffee pots with and without amphetamines in them. They are definitely performance enhancing drugs. Many players talk about it in their biographies.
Now if Aaron used it one time and never again I don’t consider that taking performance enhancing drugs.
I totally agree that players need to be judged in their era - and a HOF without Bonds is insane.
I however would not vote for Clemens if I had a vote - which of course I never will. This is on the morality clause from starting an affair with a 15 year old Mindy McCready. She later committed suicide - often times sexual abuse (which is what a grown man and a 15 year old girl is) is a main factor to problems later in life. Cannot imagine any fathers of 15 year old girls not seeing this as unforgivable.
"@coolstanley said:
Do you think every player in the Hall was clean?
Are Ivan Rodriguez and Mike Piazza still in the Hall?"
Yes. So are Nolan Ryan, Rickey Henderson, and Cal Ripken. The HOF voters definitely have a tiered rule system. Will be fun to watch the David Ortiz and Alex Rodriguez portion of this story.
Why do you think Aaron added that little snippet into his Biography? That one little paragraph that most people would read over and forget. It sure seems a little strange that if a guy only did amphetamines once they would even make mention of it at all. To me, it smacks of someone covering their rear in the event public perception towards "greenies" turns and they become viewed by the masses as the PED they are and those that took them enjoyed competitive advantage. It sounds to me that hank wanted to be able to say, yeah, I used it once, but never again.
seems very suspicious to me. an admission, but "I only did it just that one time, honest" type of admission. kind of like the guy who got caught cheating on his wife saying "honest honey, it was just that one time..."
yes, that is my speculation. but at any rate, Aaron is an admitted user.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
The only thing I think we all agree on is that Craig44 actually hates Hank Aaron. We could be talking about a homeless family in Milwaukee in 1956 that Hank delivered food to and Craig would mention some greenies from 1970. Yes Craig44, Hank Aaron is the 2nd worst person to ever roam the earth behind Dahmer. OMG. As soon as Aaron was talked about I knew the "Greenies" were coming out. LOL.
Hank Aaron 1954 and then 1974.
Barry Bonds 1986 and then 1999. I rest my case. Bonds was a steroid freak, while Aaron did it with hard work.
I'm not going to speak for Craig44, but the problem I see is that there is so much hate for Bonds and Clemens, et al. Those that would equate PED usage with Dahmer are the ones that have the problem. Craig44 just likes to point out that fever that you have towards "those guys", while totally ignoring "these guys". Nowhere does he ever say Aaron is a bad guy. That's the leap you pearl clutchers make.
Don't have a horse in this race but wanted to see if you could send me that beachfront listing. Lots of great beachfront in Nebraska!
https://www.lakehouse.com/search.php?cid=33&s_res=AND&pg=advanced&f_type[]=Lot
Dahmer was just attention getting....and it worked. I just noticed that Craig44 always goes straight to the greenies. ALWAYS. Do not pass go, do not collect $200; but straight to the Greenies.