I was/am a huge fan of Buster Posey and he was a really great baseball player. If he gets in - and he might - there will be no statistics you could put up to warrant his inclusion. But as I mentioned, he, Yadi and Mauer were the best three catchers of the last 15-20 years and fairly similar at that. I don’t know that any demands induction but they all certainly deserved their due consideration.
@streeter - I haven’t seen you post much; can I perhaps guess you are a Giants fan and he is like the Mattingly of your franchise to you (plus 3 titles, of course, which he was a critical piece in all 3)?
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Yadier Molina is the best catcher of this generation. It’s not really close, either. Similar offensively and superior defensively, which is arguably more important.
Yadi wasn't/isn't similar offensively to Posey or Mauer. Not even close. Molina is a career 97 OPS+ guy. Posey is at 129. Mauer finished at 124. Molina in his t-ball days never had a year as good as Mauer or Posey during their MVP years.
@1951WheatiesPremium said:
I was/am a huge fan of Buster Posey and he was a really great baseball player. If he gets in - and he might - there will be no statistics you could put up to warrant his inclusion. But as I mentioned, he, Yadi and Mauer were the best three catchers of the last 15-20 years and fairly similar at that. I don’t know that any demands induction but they all certainly deserved their due consideration.
@streeter - I haven’t seen you post much; can I perhaps guess you are a Giants fan and he is like the Mattingly of your franchise to you (plus 3 titles, of course, which he was a critical piece in all 3)?
Wheaties,
Grew up with the Giants. First game, fan appreciation day Sept 30, 1962. Mays tags one and puts the Giants into the sudden death.
Been to very few games since the 86? Strike.
Not a Bonds fan.
Probably been collecting memoribilia longer than most here have been on this earth.
I collect $20 gold pieces ....my go to passion.
Well, I felt that Mattingly (and Munson before him) was deserving on enshrinement but ultimately didn’t get it. And I feel like that could be Buster’s fate. Buster Posey is a guy you had to watch to fully appreciate as his stats don’t really tell the whole tale. Still, so much is predicated on statistics these days (a practice I’m not entirely fond of) that I think he’s a little up against it.
Maybe not in t-ball but he did in the majors. In 2012, Molina scored 65 Runs, hit 22 HR, drove in 76, stole 12 Bases and batted .315. Mauer and Posey may have had better single seasons than that but maybe not by the margin you think?
That season was pretty solid and Yadi’s also got the fact that he actually caught for 18 seasons as opposed to two guys who significantly moved off the position (and one of whom also DH’d) and more Gold Glove’s than those two combined, with Mauer winning 3 in the AL and Molina winning them all in the NL, leaving zero for Posey.
Yadi also was the leader of multiple WS winners, was beloved by the fan base and is considered a franchise all time great - just like the other two - and also made the most all star games of the three players. And Mauer and Posey have zero seasons over the age of 35 and 34, respectively, to pull down any rate stats (all players were 21-22 when they debuted) while Yadi is still very productive at 38 and probably plays next season at age 39. Better totals, lower rates…
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Maybe not in t-ball but he did in the majors. In 2012, Molina scored 65 Runs, hit 22 HR, drove in 76, stole 12 Bases and batted .315. Mauer and Posey may have had better single seasons than that but maybe not by the margin you think?
A little less of a gap than I though but Mauer's best OPS was 157 higher than Yadi's. That's a pretty gigantic gap.
>
That season was pretty solid and Yadi’s also got the fact that he actually caught for 18 seasons as opposed to two guys who significantly moved off the position (and one of whom also DH’d) and more Gold Glove’s than those two combined, with Mauer winning 3 in the AL and Molina winning them all in the NL, leaving zero for Posey.
Gold gloves have nothing to do with their offensive production, which is what I talking about.
Yadi also was the leader of multiple WS winners, was beloved by the fan base and is considered a franchise all time great - just like the other two - and also made the most all star games of the three players. And Mauer and Posey have zero seasons over the age of 35 and 34, respectively, to pull down any rate stats (all players were 21-22 when they debuted) while Yadi is still very productive at 38 and probably plays next season at age 39. Better totals, lower rates…
Most of what you said here also has nothing to do with offense. Yadi hit 11 homers with an OPS of .667 this year. He might still be great defensively but he's horrible offensively now (and, no, I don't care that he somehow got an oWAR of 1.0 this year).
Maybe not in t-ball but he did in the majors. In 2012, Molina scored 65 Runs, hit 22 HR, drove in 76, stole 12 Bases and batted .315. Mauer and Posey may have had better single seasons than that but maybe not by the margin you think?
A little less of a gap than I though but Mauer's best OPS was 157 higher than Yadi's. That's a pretty gigantic gap.
>
That season was pretty solid and Yadi’s also got the fact that he actually caught for 18 seasons as opposed to two guys who significantly moved off the position (and one of whom also DH’d) and more Gold Glove’s than those two combined, with Mauer winning 3 in the AL and Molina winning them all in the NL, leaving zero for Posey.
Gold gloves have nothing to do with their offensive production, which is what I talking about.
Yadi also was the leader of multiple WS winners, was beloved by the fan base and is considered a franchise all time great - just like the other two - and also made the most all star games of the three players. And Mauer and Posey have zero seasons over the age of 35 and 34, respectively, to pull down any rate stats (all players were 21-22 when they debuted) while Yadi is still very productive at 38 and probably plays next season at age 39. Better totals, lower rates…
Most of what you said here also has nothing to do with offense. Yadi hit 11 homers with an OPS of .667 this year. He might still be great defensively but he's horrible offensively now (and, no, I don't care that he somehow got an oWAR of 1.0 this year).
Playing catcher?
It sure does; Mauer and Posey are done and will not have the ‘horrible’ seasons that you have alleged Yadi will keep cranking out because he is/was superior defensively and a drop off offensively has not made him a liability at the position and only Yadi has played it exclusively. So Joe and Buster’s rate stats stay higher as a result of retirement because they can’t play the position anymore and hardly did it full time the last 3-4 years, anyway.
But more to the point, if not for playing catcher, none of the three ever even sniff the Hall of Fame. So the ‘better bat’ advantage is borne out true mostly in rate stats and that is why I said similar and not ‘the same.’
Even in this ‘horrible season’ of .252 and 11 HR for Yadi, he did drive in more runs than Buster. And Buster’s 18 HR season isn’t exactly setting the world on fire, either. Both guys had exactly two 20 HR seasons in their career - also pretty similar.
And since their HOF chances are predicated on catching, and this thread is about HOF chances, I raised Molina as having a similar bat and being by far the best defensively.
I stand by that.
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Well, I felt that Mattingly (and Munson before him) was deserving on enshrinement but ultimately didn’t get it. And I feel like that could be Buster’s fate. Buster Posey is a guy you had to watch to fully appreciate as his stats don’t really tell the whole tale. Still, so much is predicated on statistics these days (a practice I’m not entirely fond of) that I think he’s a little up against it.
Munson and Posey are actually very similar. I think Munson was better, but refer to @dallasactuary 's analysis. I suppose you can make the case that Posey belongs in but Munson doesn't, though I haven't seen anyone attempt that, but the fact remains that in the forty years since Munson "retired" he remains on the outside and in fact he never even got 16% of the vote. Since Munson never got 16% of the vote I think it would be bizarre if Posey went in on the first ballot.
Yadier Molina is the best catcher of this generation. It’s not really close, either. Similar offensively and superior defensively, which is arguably more important.
I'm so confused. In what universe is Molina similar to Posey offensively? I've looked at all your arguments in this thread, and they make no sense. Let's compare Molina's 2012 (which you site as proof of offensive similarity) with Posey's 2012. (Comparing Mauer's 2009 would be even worse, but is not necessary.) Just using the stats you cherrypicked to make Molina look similar, recall, Molina had 65 runs, 22 homers, 76 RBI (you may not have mentioned this) and hit .315 with 12 stolen bases. You neglected to mention that Posey scored 78 runs, with 24 homers, 103 RBI but only one stolen base. Oh yes, he led the majors with a .336 average. BTW, Posey also led the majors with a 171 OPS+ (Molina 137) and the NL with 9 Sacrifice Flies (Molina 5).
Bottom line is that Posey was a good enough hitter to play 1693 innings at first (35 games at DH) when he couldn't catch, Mauer 5136 innings at first, 310 games at DH (he didn't have to wait for interleague games), Molina just 110 innings at first, and 4 games as DH.
All this just shows that even when they weren't catching Posey and especially Mauer were able to get their bats in the game. No one ever found that necessity for Molina.
Molina is a great defensive catcher. Posey and Mauer were very, very good hitters. Molina was functional. Functional hitting was enough to get Ozzie Smith into the HoF, and while Molina is a distinctly better hitter than Smith, he isn't close to the defensive reputation (no shame in not having Smith's reputation).
While I'd disagree, you have enough to make a HoF case for Molina and, I suppose, a case for him being better than Posey and Mauer, but you just look silly not acknowledging their offensive superiority.
Yadier Molina is the best catcher of this generation. It’s not really close, either. Similar offensively and superior defensively, which is arguably more important.
I'm so confused. In what universe is Molina similar to Posey offensively? I've looked at all your arguments in this thread, and they make no sense. Let's compare Molina's 2012 (which you site as proof of offensive similarity) with Posey's 2012. (Comparing Mauer's 2009 would be even worse, but is not necessary.) Just using the stats you cherrypicked to make Molina look similar, recall, Molina had 65 runs, 22 homers, 76 RBI (you may not have mentioned this) and hit .315 with 12 stolen bases. You neglected to mention that Posey scored 78 runs, with 24 homers, 103 RBI but only one stolen base. Oh yes, he led the majors with a .336 average. BTW, Posey also led the majors with a 171 OPS+ (Molina 137) and the NL with 9 Sacrifice Flies (Molina 5).
Bottom line is that Posey was a good enough hitter to play 1693 innings at first (35 games at DH) when he couldn't catch, Mauer 5136 innings at first, 310 games at DH (he didn't have to wait for interleague games), Molina just 110 innings at first, and 4 games as DH.
All this just shows that even when they weren't catching Posey and especially Mauer were able to get their bats in the game. No one ever found that necessity for Molina.
Molina is a great defensive catcher. Posey and Mauer were very, very good hitters. Molina was functional. Functional hitting was enough to get Ozzie Smith into the HoF, and while Molina is a distinctly better hitter than Smith, he isn't close to the defensive reputation (no shame in not having Smith's reputation).
While I'd disagree, you have enough to make a HoF case for Molina and, I suppose, a case for him being better than Posey and Mauer, but you just look silly not acknowledging their offensive superiority.
Albert Pujols, Lance Berkman, Paul Goldschmidt et al are the reasons why Molina doesn’t go to first base on off days while San Fran had Brandon Belt and other marginal talents - that’s why Posey could play first and DH.
While I acknowledged that Posey and Mauer had better ‘best seasons’ than Molina, the overall body of work of production was similar. Posey won one MVP, Molina had two top 5 finishes.
And again, actually catching is part of being a catcher. Re-look at Buster now and give credit for just games he caught and the gap widens. No one calls Craig Biggio a Hall of Fame catcher; he played plenty of games there, though (428).
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Buster Posey and Joe Mauer probably could be described as being the same and were both better hitters than Yadier Molina. I do not believe they were ‘vastly superior’ to him but they were better. Thirty guys catch in the bigs and most are truly useless offensive players. Molina is certainly not one of them and many years he was top 5 and just about always top 10 offensively. If you are telling me that Posey and Mauer are a tier unto themselves? I suppose. But it’s not Mauer, Posey in one tier and then trash, is it?
And again, it is worth mentioning that Molina did the actual job of catching his entire career and maintained a .280 career average with 6 extra seasons of wear and tear outright (not including the DH/1B disparity) and four seasons past the age of 34 that have dragged it down some, the career marks, meaning through age 34 they were even closer, with OBP and SLG following suit.
And again, Molina is regarded as one of the best defensive catchers of his era and all time; that’s not true of either Mauer or Posey. And I think we can all agree there is definitely a physical impact to your hitting that occurs by catching every day at a high level.
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Ahman: Tim Lincecum was a great story, wasn't he! A tiny, tiny man who learned (from his dad) how to generate incredible velocity and deception -- and he won 2 Cy Young awards! Of course, the tiny man could endure only a handful of seasons before his body broke down -- but it was fun to watch The Freak at the top of his game, wasn't it!
Here's a song to express my emotion (and hopefully yours too) on not getting to watch Lincecum and Posey entertain all of us anymore. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqpOOpvpP1g
@streeter said:
I'm weak on baseball. Please tell me which catchers match him in the last 20-25 yrs....
I await your reply Craig. Please educate me.
BTW, if it was just about numbers...Rose and Bonds would be in, right?
Can I jump in?
Yadier Molina is the best catcher of this generation. It’s not really close, either. Similar offensively and superior defensively, which is arguably more important.
Joe Mauer was also better than Buster Posey, at least offensively.
Of the three, I think Yadier Molina is most deserving of the Hall of Fame though even he probably is borderline.
But I think those are the top three of the catchers who played the entirety of their careers in the last 15-20 years…
…did I miss anyone?
Defensively I think Salvador Perez is as good as any of them.
And he put on a show offensively this year, tying Vlad with 48 dingers and leading with 121 RBI's.
I hate to say it but his main problem is he doesn't walk enough, decent .270 batting avg. but a very
low OBP.
Johnny Bench is no longer the single season leader in home runs by a catcher thanks to Salvy.
@streeter said:
I'm weak on baseball. Please tell me which catchers match him in the last 20-25 yrs....
I await your reply Craig. Please educate me.
BTW, if it was just about numbers...Rose and Bonds would be in, right?
Can I jump in?
Yadier Molina is the best catcher of this generation. It’s not really close, either. Similar offensively and superior defensively, which is arguably more important.
Joe Mauer was also better than Buster Posey, at least offensively.
Of the three, I think Yadier Molina is most deserving of the Hall of Fame though even he probably is borderline.
But I think those are the top three of the catchers who played the entirety of their careers in the last 15-20 years…
…did I miss anyone?
Defensively I think Salvador Perez is as good as any of them.
And he put on a show offensively this year, tying Vlad with 48 dingers and leading with 121 RBI's.
I hate to say it but his main problem is he doesn't walk enough, decent .270 batting avg. but a very
low OBP.
Johnny Bench is no longer the single season leader in home runs by a catcher thanks to Salvy.
Great call! And he’s still got some prime left!
Semi related point is drafting him was the key to my rotisserie title this year (along with Ohtani’s bat round 19)!!!
Shame on me.
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Buster Posey and Joe Mauer probably could be described as being the same and were both better hitters than Yadier Molina. I do not believe they were ‘vastly superior’ to him but they were better. Thirty guys catch in the bigs and most are truly useless offensive players. Molina is certainly not one of them and many years he was top 5 and just about always top 10 offensively. If you are telling me that Posey and Mauer are a tier unto themselves? I suppose. But it’s not Mauer, Posey in one tier and then trash, is it?
And again, it is worth mentioning that Molina did the actual job of catching his entire career and maintained a .280 career average with 6 extra seasons of wear and tear outright (not including the DH/1B disparity) and four seasons past the age of 34 that have dragged it down some, the career marks, meaning through age 34 they were even closer, with OBP and SLG following suit.
And again, Molina is regarded as one of the best defensive catchers of his era and all time; that’s not true of either Mauer or Posey. And I think we can all agree there is definitely a physical impact to your hitting that occurs by catching every day at a high level.
I don't disagree with any of this. If you look above you'll see I describe Mauer and Posey offensively as "Very good" and Molina as "Functional." No one is suggesting that Molina's hitting is "trash". No one is suggesting he is Omar Vizquel. But there is still a huge gap between "Very good" and "Functional". It's like saying that Ozzie Smith was better than Cal Ripken because Smith was a better defensive shortstop and they were similar offensively. Most of the rest of your argument is the same, actually. I think that Smith and Ripken were closer offensively than Molina is to Posey/Mauer, actually. You can make a case for either one as the best shortstop of his day, but you can't make THAT case for Smith. Similarly for Molina.
I refuse to speculate as to how well Molina would have hit had he only had the physical ravages of playing DH. I stand by his batting, his actual batting, being far worse than that of Mauer and Posey.
Yadier Molina is the best catcher of this generation. It’s not really close, either. Similar offensively and superior defensively, which is arguably more important.
I'm so confused. In what universe is Molina similar to Posey offensively? I've looked at all your arguments in this thread, and they make no sense. Let's compare Molina's 2012 (which you site as proof of offensive similarity) with Posey's 2012. (Comparing Mauer's 2009 would be even worse, but is not necessary.) Just using the stats you cherrypicked to make Molina look similar, recall, Molina had 65 runs, 22 homers, 76 RBI (you may not have mentioned this) and hit .315 with 12 stolen bases. You neglected to mention that Posey scored 78 runs, with 24 homers, 103 RBI but only one stolen base. Oh yes, he led the majors with a .336 average. BTW, Posey also led the majors with a 171 OPS+ (Molina 137) and the NL with 9 Sacrifice Flies (Molina 5).
Bottom line is that Posey was a good enough hitter to play 1693 innings at first (35 games at DH) when he couldn't catch, Mauer 5136 innings at first, 310 games at DH (he didn't have to wait for interleague games), Molina just 110 innings at first, and 4 games as DH.
All this just shows that even when they weren't catching Posey and especially Mauer were able to get their bats in the game. No one ever found that necessity for Molina.
Molina is a great defensive catcher. Posey and Mauer were very, very good hitters. Molina was functional. Functional hitting was enough to get Ozzie Smith into the HoF, and while Molina is a distinctly better hitter than Smith, he isn't close to the defensive reputation (no shame in not having Smith's reputation).
While I'd disagree, you have enough to make a HoF case for Molina and, I suppose, a case for him being better than Posey and Mauer, but you just look silly not acknowledging their offensive superiority.
Albert Pujols, Lance Berkman, Paul Goldschmidt et al are the reasons why Molina doesn’t go to first base on off days while San Fran had Brandon Belt and other marginal talents - that’s why Posey could play first and DH.
While I acknowledged that Posey and Mauer had better ‘best seasons’ than Molina, the overall body of work of production was similar. Posey won one MVP, Molina had two top 5 finishes.
And again, actually catching is part of being a catcher. Re-look at Buster now and give credit for just games he caught and the gap widens. No one calls Craig Biggio a Hall of Fame catcher; he played plenty of games there, though (428).
Seriously? You think that Molina's MVP votes were for his offense? Braun, not to mention Posey was vastly superior in 2012 and Goldschmidt in 2013. Had Molina been a corner outfielder those years he wouldn't have gotten a single vote.
And now you're being silly. Biggio played five times as many innings at second than behind the plate. Even Mauer played 50% more innings behind the plate than at first.
Yadier Molina is the best catcher of this generation. It’s not really close, either. Similar offensively and superior defensively, which is arguably more important.
I'm so confused. In what universe is Molina similar to Posey offensively? I've looked at all your arguments in this thread, and they make no sense. Let's compare Molina's 2012 (which you site as proof of offensive similarity) with Posey's 2012. (Comparing Mauer's 2009 would be even worse, but is not necessary.) Just using the stats you cherrypicked to make Molina look similar, recall, Molina had 65 runs, 22 homers, 76 RBI (you may not have mentioned this) and hit .315 with 12 stolen bases. You neglected to mention that Posey scored 78 runs, with 24 homers, 103 RBI but only one stolen base. Oh yes, he led the majors with a .336 average. BTW, Posey also led the majors with a 171 OPS+ (Molina 137) and the NL with 9 Sacrifice Flies (Molina 5).
Bottom line is that Posey was a good enough hitter to play 1693 innings at first (35 games at DH) when he couldn't catch, Mauer 5136 innings at first, 310 games at DH (he didn't have to wait for interleague games), Molina just 110 innings at first, and 4 games as DH.
All this just shows that even when they weren't catching Posey and especially Mauer were able to get their bats in the game. No one ever found that necessity for Molina.
Molina is a great defensive catcher. Posey and Mauer were very, very good hitters. Molina was functional. Functional hitting was enough to get Ozzie Smith into the HoF, and while Molina is a distinctly better hitter than Smith, he isn't close to the defensive reputation (no shame in not having Smith's reputation).
While I'd disagree, you have enough to make a HoF case for Molina and, I suppose, a case for him being better than Posey and Mauer, but you just look silly not acknowledging their offensive superiority.
Albert Pujols, Lance Berkman, Paul Goldschmidt et al are the reasons why Molina doesn’t go to first base on off days while San Fran had Brandon Belt and other marginal talents - that’s why Posey could play first and DH.
While I acknowledged that Posey and Mauer had better ‘best seasons’ than Molina, the overall body of work of production was similar. Posey won one MVP, Molina had two top 5 finishes.
And again, actually catching is part of being a catcher. Re-look at Buster now and give credit for just games he caught and the gap widens. No one calls Craig Biggio a Hall of Fame catcher; he played plenty of games there, though (428).
Seriously? You think that Molina's MVP votes were for his offense? Braun, not to mention Posey was vastly superior in 2012 and Goldschmidt in 2013. Had Molina been a corner outfielder those years he wouldn't have gotten a single vote.
And now you're being silly. Biggio played five times as many innings at second than behind the plate. Even Mauer played 50% more innings behind the plate than at first.
Now who’s being silly? You’re claiming he was going to win MVP because of defense? Really? That’s what you’re going with?
Really?
I love it. Tell me more…
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Buster Posey and Joe Mauer probably could be described as being the same and were both better hitters than Yadier Molina. I do not believe they were ‘vastly superior’ to him but they were better. Thirty guys catch in the bigs and most are truly useless offensive players. Molina is certainly not one of them and many years he was top 5 and just about always top 10 offensively. If you are telling me that Posey and Mauer are a tier unto themselves? I suppose. But it’s not Mauer, Posey in one tier and then trash, is it?
And again, it is worth mentioning that Molina did the actual job of catching his entire career and maintained a .280 career average with 6 extra seasons of wear and tear outright (not including the DH/1B disparity) and four seasons past the age of 34 that have dragged it down some, the career marks, meaning through age 34 they were even closer, with OBP and SLG following suit.
And again, Molina is regarded as one of the best defensive catchers of his era and all time; that’s not true of either Mauer or Posey. And I think we can all agree there is definitely a physical impact to your hitting that occurs by catching every day at a high level.
I don't disagree with any of this. If you look above you'll see I describe Mauer and Posey offensively as "Very good" and Molina as "Functional." No one is suggesting that Molina's hitting is "trash". No one is suggesting he is Omar Vizquel. But there is still a huge gap between "Very good" and "Functional". It's like saying that Ozzie Smith was better than Cal Ripken because Smith was a better defensive shortstop and they were similar offensively. Most of the rest of your argument is the same, actually. I think that Smith and Ripken were closer offensively than Molina is to Posey/Mauer, actually. You can make a case for either one as the best shortstop of his day, but you can't make THAT case for Smith. Similarly for Molina.
I refuse to speculate as to how well Molina would have hit had he only had the physical ravages of playing DH. I stand by his batting, his actual batting, being far worse than that of Mauer and Posey.
Man, I wish I had the 45 seconds it took to read this back.
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Yadier Molina is the best catcher of this generation. It’s not really close, either. Similar offensively and superior defensively, which is arguably more important.
I'm so confused. In what universe is Molina similar to Posey offensively? I've looked at all your arguments in this thread, and they make no sense. Let's compare Molina's 2012 (which you site as proof of offensive similarity) with Posey's 2012. (Comparing Mauer's 2009 would be even worse, but is not necessary.) Just using the stats you cherrypicked to make Molina look similar, recall, Molina had 65 runs, 22 homers, 76 RBI (you may not have mentioned this) and hit .315 with 12 stolen bases. You neglected to mention that Posey scored 78 runs, with 24 homers, 103 RBI but only one stolen base. Oh yes, he led the majors with a .336 average. BTW, Posey also led the majors with a 171 OPS+ (Molina 137) and the NL with 9 Sacrifice Flies (Molina 5).
Bottom line is that Posey was a good enough hitter to play 1693 innings at first (35 games at DH) when he couldn't catch, Mauer 5136 innings at first, 310 games at DH (he didn't have to wait for interleague games), Molina just 110 innings at first, and 4 games as DH.
All this just shows that even when they weren't catching Posey and especially Mauer were able to get their bats in the game. No one ever found that necessity for Molina.
Molina is a great defensive catcher. Posey and Mauer were very, very good hitters. Molina was functional. Functional hitting was enough to get Ozzie Smith into the HoF, and while Molina is a distinctly better hitter than Smith, he isn't close to the defensive reputation (no shame in not having Smith's reputation).
While I'd disagree, you have enough to make a HoF case for Molina and, I suppose, a case for him being better than Posey and Mauer, but you just look silly not acknowledging their offensive superiority.
Albert Pujols, Lance Berkman, Paul Goldschmidt et al are the reasons why Molina doesn’t go to first base on off days while San Fran had Brandon Belt and other marginal talents - that’s why Posey could play first and DH.
While I acknowledged that Posey and Mauer had better ‘best seasons’ than Molina, the overall body of work of production was similar. Posey won one MVP, Molina had two top 5 finishes.
And again, actually catching is part of being a catcher. Re-look at Buster now and give credit for just games he caught and the gap widens. No one calls Craig Biggio a Hall of Fame catcher; he played plenty of games there, though (428).
Seriously? You think that Molina's MVP votes were for his offense? Braun, not to mention Posey was vastly superior in 2012 and Goldschmidt in 2013. Had Molina been a corner outfielder those years he wouldn't have gotten a single vote.
And now you're being silly. Biggio played five times as many innings at second than behind the plate. Even Mauer played 50% more innings behind the plate than at first.
Now who’s being silly? You’re claiming he was going to win MVP because of defense? Really? That’s what you’re going with?
Really?
I love it. Tell me more…
We can debate whether "he was going to win MVP", but the fact is that he only got any votes at all because he had the reputation of being an elite defender at a key position. His offense was very good in 2012. Not great. Certainly not elite. His offense in 2012 is eerily similar to that of Allen Craig, who was a first baseman who played a little corner outfield that year all without distinction and was largely ignored in MVP voting.
Like it or not, Craig is Molina's offensive peer at his peak, not Posey or Mauer.
Yadier Molina is the best catcher of this generation. It’s not really close, either. Similar offensively and superior defensively, which is arguably more important.
I'm so confused. In what universe is Molina similar to Posey offensively? I've looked at all your arguments in this thread, and they make no sense. Let's compare Molina's 2012 (which you site as proof of offensive similarity) with Posey's 2012. (Comparing Mauer's 2009 would be even worse, but is not necessary.) Just using the stats you cherrypicked to make Molina look similar, recall, Molina had 65 runs, 22 homers, 76 RBI (you may not have mentioned this) and hit .315 with 12 stolen bases. You neglected to mention that Posey scored 78 runs, with 24 homers, 103 RBI but only one stolen base. Oh yes, he led the majors with a .336 average. BTW, Posey also led the majors with a 171 OPS+ (Molina 137) and the NL with 9 Sacrifice Flies (Molina 5).
Bottom line is that Posey was a good enough hitter to play 1693 innings at first (35 games at DH) when he couldn't catch, Mauer 5136 innings at first, 310 games at DH (he didn't have to wait for interleague games), Molina just 110 innings at first, and 4 games as DH.
All this just shows that even when they weren't catching Posey and especially Mauer were able to get their bats in the game. No one ever found that necessity for Molina.
Molina is a great defensive catcher. Posey and Mauer were very, very good hitters. Molina was functional. Functional hitting was enough to get Ozzie Smith into the HoF, and while Molina is a distinctly better hitter than Smith, he isn't close to the defensive reputation (no shame in not having Smith's reputation).
While I'd disagree, you have enough to make a HoF case for Molina and, I suppose, a case for him being better than Posey and Mauer, but you just look silly not acknowledging their offensive superiority.
Albert Pujols, Lance Berkman, Paul Goldschmidt et al are the reasons why Molina doesn’t go to first base on off days while San Fran had Brandon Belt and other marginal talents - that’s why Posey could play first and DH.
While I acknowledged that Posey and Mauer had better ‘best seasons’ than Molina, the overall body of work of production was similar. Posey won one MVP, Molina had two top 5 finishes.
And again, actually catching is part of being a catcher. Re-look at Buster now and give credit for just games he caught and the gap widens. No one calls Craig Biggio a Hall of Fame catcher; he played plenty of games there, though (428).
Seriously? You think that Molina's MVP votes were for his offense? Braun, not to mention Posey was vastly superior in 2012 and Goldschmidt in 2013. Had Molina been a corner outfielder those years he wouldn't have gotten a single vote.
And now you're being silly. Biggio played five times as many innings at second than behind the plate. Even Mauer played 50% more innings behind the plate than at first.
Now who’s being silly? You’re claiming he was going to win MVP because of defense? Really? That’s what you’re going with?
Really?
I love it. Tell me more…
We can debate whether "he was going to win MVP", but the fact is that he only got any votes at all because he had the reputation of being an elite defender at a key position. His offense was very good in 2012. Not great. Certainly not elite. His offense in 2012 is eerily similar to that of Allen Craig, who was a first baseman who played a little corner outfield that year all without distinction and was largely ignored in MVP voting.
Like it or not, Craig is Molina's offensive peer at his peak, not Posey or Mauer.
Rather than go with obscure players with 6 year careers who never played catcher, I would like to stick with the actual two players and see how your argument holds up.
So, I just took the best three year stretch of Buster Posey and the best three year stretch of Molina and added them up. Here are the results.
And it works out pretty good since there’s overlap of two seasons and both teams were pretty good clubs in the same league in that span. In total, Posey was good for a shade under 8 more runs scored, a shade under 4 more homers and a shade under 15 extra RBI at the catching position annually, with no appreciable difference in batting average. Also noteworthy, I think, is DHing and playing first base resulted in about thirty extra games (total, or 10 per year) played over the prime three year span for Buster Posey. So if the car
Now, that’s their primes against one another.
I’ve never suggested we call them the same player offensively. The word I used was similar.
However, I do think the word similar to describe them is quite fair.
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When you chimed in originally, it was seemingly to explain to me that Buster Posey had a better 2012, the year Posey won MVP and had by far his best single season of his career, than did Yadier Molina.
That’s a point I would have happily conceded, but, again, Yadier Molina did finish 4th in the MVP voting that very year meaning that the Baseball Writers of America (and me) thought that they had similar seasons. Even the WAR’s that they posted (Posey 7.9 and Molina 7.2, finishing first and second in the NL, and ahead of Braun and McCutcheon’s 6.9) suggests that they were most certainly of similar value in the single greatest season of Buster Posey’s career).
😉
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When you chimed in originally, it was seemingly to explain to me that Buster Posey had a better 2012, the year Posey won MVP and had by far his best single season of his career, than did Yadier Molina.
That’s a point I would have happily conceded, but, again, Yadier Molina did finish 4th in the MVP voting that very year meaning that the Baseball Writers of America (and me) thought that they had similar seasons. Even the WAR’s that they posted (Posey 7.9 and Molina 7.2, finishing first and second in the NL, and ahead of Braun and McCutcheon’s 6.9) suggests that they were most certainly of similar value in the single greatest season of Buster Posey’s career).
😉
Posy and Molina were not at all similar. They may have had similar value, but far more of Posey's value came from his offense. Since you seem constitutionally unable of accepting this fact, I'm done. There really is no point in attempting to convince you further, and I expect everyone else here understands.
When you chimed in originally, it was seemingly to explain to me that Buster Posey had a better 2012, the year Posey won MVP and had by far his best single season of his career, than did Yadier Molina.
That’s a point I would have happily conceded, but, again, Yadier Molina did finish 4th in the MVP voting that very year meaning that the Baseball Writers of America (and me) thought that they had similar seasons. Even the WAR’s that they posted (Posey 7.9 and Molina 7.2, finishing first and second in the NL, and ahead of Braun and McCutcheon’s 6.9) suggests that they were most certainly of similar value in the single greatest season of Buster Posey’s career).
😉
Posy and Molina were not at all similar. They may have had similar value, but far more of Posey's value came from his offense. Since you seem constitutionally unable of accepting this fact, I'm done. There really is no point in attempting to convince you further, and I expect everyone else here understands.
Yes, I am unable to accept your opinion as fact.
No one should ever accept an opinion as a fact.
So, you are ‘done’ because the facts no longer support your argument - and I expect everyone else here understands.
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Again, same league, same basic time period, same position.
Similar production, and maybe even a little more so when you consider the 10 extra games played by Buster Posey each season.
Now, does this still make ‘no sense’ to you, as you originally stated?
Also, with the numbers laid out so nicely, can you use them to explain the whole ‘functional, very good, elite’ thing to me? It looks to me like Yadi goes from functional to elite with 6 additional runs, 3 more HR, 11 more men driven in (since he scores on the 3 HR) and 23 more walks a year. And actually, slightly less if we are allowed to posit that they play the same number of games…
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Again, same league, same basic time period, same position.
Similar production, and maybe even a little more so when you consider the 10 extra games played by Buster Posey each season.
Now, does this still make ‘no sense’ to you, as you originally stated?
Also, with the numbers laid out so nicely, can you use them to explain the whole ‘functional, very good, elite’ thing to me? It looks to me like Yadi goes from functional to elite with 6 additional runs, 3 more HR, 11 more men driven in (since he scores on the 3 HR) and 23 more walks a year. And actually, slightly less if we are allowed to posit that they play the same number of games…
can you supply the slash lines for both? RBI and Runs Scored are both bad metrics with which to measure player performance since they are almost entirely dependant on teammates abilities.
was the production of both players performed with a similar number of ABs?
Again, same league, same basic time period, same position.
Similar production, and maybe even a little more so when you consider the 10 extra games played by Buster Posey each season.
Now, does this still make ‘no sense’ to you, as you originally stated?
Also, with the numbers laid out so nicely, can you use them to explain the whole ‘functional, very good, elite’ thing to me? It looks to me like Yadi goes from functional to elite with 6 additional runs, 3 more HR, 11 more men driven in (since he scores on the 3 HR) and 23 more walks a year. And actually, slightly less if we are allowed to posit that they play the same number of games…
can you supply the slash lines for both? RBI and Runs Scored are both bad metrics with which to measure player performance since they are almost entirely dependant on teammates abilities.
was the production of both players performed with a similar number of ABs?
I could but they’re basically derivative of the numbers above and will require more math. 😁
The 23 extra walks means a slightly higher OBP and the 14ish more extra base hits will mean a slightly higher SLG.
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Now, I do not see any massive difference in these two players offensively. Buster Posey had a spectacular 2012 and that single season is the best by either player - a point I have already conceded - but never had another season quite like that again. If you stack ALL their best seasons or look at their three year prime, it looks to me like Buster Posey is a little bit better with the bat. I do not view the differences between them as massive, especially when comparing them to other catchers. And again, I don’t hold career duration (12 years and 18 years) against either guy. They each played the same brutal position and the body wears down with age to begin with. However, since it’s fair to assume some level of decline with age, I don’t think using the last four years and the impact it’s had on his career averages would be fair to Molina without putting those seasons in that context.
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Also, please note that at no time did I disparage Buster Posey or @daltex , for that matter.
I am offering backup for my statement that Yadier Molina is the best catcher of this generation. And I was questioned on the first part of the statement that he was ‘similar offensively and vastly superior defensively.’
Perhaps another fun way to do it might be to take Yadier’s prime three seasons and insert them into Buster’s line and see if they stand out as his clear worst seasons or blend in nicely with every other season of his career, excepting 2012.
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You can do this exercise with pretty much any worthwhile measure of offensive value and it looks the same. I don't know how the word "similar" even occurred to anyone when thinking about Posey's and Molina's offense. I am a huge fan of Molina, I would vote for him for the HOF, and he will breeze into the HOF. But that is entirely because of his defense. His offense peaked, briefly, at "good", and he's spent the majority of his career as "below average".
Gene Tenace, by the way, loses the top season to Posey, but then beats him in all of the other 9.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
You can do this exercise with pretty much any worthwhile measure of offensive value and it looks the same. I don't know how the word "similar" even occurred to anyone when thinking about Posey's and Molina's offense. I am a huge fan of Molina, I would vote for him for the HOF, and he will breeze into the HOF. But that is entirely because of his defense. His offense peaked, briefly, at "good", and he's spent the majority of his career as "below average".
Gene Tenace, by the way, loses the top season to Posey, but then beats him in all of the other 9.
Thanks for that last sentence which virtually invalidates ‘Batter Runs’ as a stat since we all know (besides you, of course) that Gene Tennace sucked.
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Again, same league, same basic time period, same position.
Similar production, and maybe even a little more so when you consider the 10 extra games played by Buster Posey each season.
Now, does this still make ‘no sense’ to you, as you originally stated?
Also, with the numbers laid out so nicely, can you use them to explain the whole ‘functional, very good, elite’ thing to me? It looks to me like Yadi goes from functional to elite with 6 additional runs, 3 more HR, 11 more men driven in (since he scores on the 3 HR) and 23 more walks a year. And actually, slightly less if we are allowed to posit that they play the same number of games…
What years are you using as Molina's "prime" ? Considering he only ever hit 17 homers twice in his 18-year career, how is that his "average" for his prime?
Again, same league, same basic time period, same position.
Similar production, and maybe even a little more so when you consider the 10 extra games played by Buster Posey each season.
Now, does this still make ‘no sense’ to you, as you originally stated?
Also, with the numbers laid out so nicely, can you use them to explain the whole ‘functional, very good, elite’ thing to me? It looks to me like Yadi goes from functional to elite with 6 additional runs, 3 more HR, 11 more men driven in (since he scores on the 3 HR) and 23 more walks a year. And actually, slightly less if we are allowed to posit that they play the same number of games…
What years are you using as Molina's "prime" ? Considering he only ever hit 17 homers twice in his 18-year career, how is that his "average" for his prime?
2011-2013
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Again, same league, same basic time period, same position.
Similar production, and maybe even a little more so when you consider the 10 extra games played by Buster Posey each season.
Now, does this still make ‘no sense’ to you, as you originally stated?
Also, with the numbers laid out so nicely, can you use them to explain the whole ‘functional, very good, elite’ thing to me? It looks to me like Yadi goes from functional to elite with 6 additional runs, 3 more HR, 11 more men driven in (since he scores on the 3 HR) and 23 more walks a year. And actually, slightly less if we are allowed to posit that they play the same number of games…
What years are you using as Molina's "prime" ? Considering he only ever hit 17 homers twice in his 18-year career, how is that his "average" for his prime?
…and that’s Posey.
I never realized that baseball-reference.com did the calculations for you - that’s a gem.
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Thanks for that last sentence which virtually invalidates ‘Batter Runs’ as a stat since we all know (besides you, of course) that Gene Tennace sucked.
Careful. Now you're not just insulting me (which is always fine) but everyone else, too. I know a handful of people stupid enough to think Gene Tenace sucked, but the folks here generally understand baseball, and how to evaluate batters. Ask one of them; you'll see.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
Thanks for that last sentence which virtually invalidates ‘Batter Runs’ as a stat since we all know (besides you, of course) that Gene Tennace sucked.
Careful. Now you're not just insulting me (which is always fine) but everyone else, too. I know a handful of people stupid enough to think Gene Tenace sucked, but the folks here generally understand baseball, and how to evaluate batters. Ask one of them; you'll see.
Please don’t construe a lighthearted joke as an insult.
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Comments
craig: Perhaps you missed it, but I've already provided a few general accomplishments for you to "chew on". Does that leave a good or a bad taste in your mouth?
https://www.facebook.com/KNBRSF/photos/a.428539858586/10158379233323587/
I was/am a huge fan of Buster Posey and he was a really great baseball player. If he gets in - and he might - there will be no statistics you could put up to warrant his inclusion. But as I mentioned, he, Yadi and Mauer were the best three catchers of the last 15-20 years and fairly similar at that. I don’t know that any demands induction but they all certainly deserved their due consideration.
@streeter - I haven’t seen you post much; can I perhaps guess you are a Giants fan and he is like the Mattingly of your franchise to you (plus 3 titles, of course, which he was a critical piece in all 3)?
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Yadi wasn't/isn't similar offensively to Posey or Mauer. Not even close. Molina is a career 97 OPS+ guy. Posey is at 129. Mauer finished at 124. Molina in his t-ball days never had a year as good as Mauer or Posey during their MVP years.
Wheaties,
Grew up with the Giants. First game, fan appreciation day Sept 30, 1962. Mays tags one and puts the Giants into the sudden death.
Been to very few games since the 86? Strike.
Not a Bonds fan.
Probably been collecting memoribilia longer than most here have been on this earth.
I collect $20 gold pieces ....my go to passion.
@streeter
Well, I felt that Mattingly (and Munson before him) was deserving on enshrinement but ultimately didn’t get it. And I feel like that could be Buster’s fate. Buster Posey is a guy you had to watch to fully appreciate as his stats don’t really tell the whole tale. Still, so much is predicated on statistics these days (a practice I’m not entirely fond of) that I think he’s a little up against it.
@Tabe
Maybe not in t-ball but he did in the majors. In 2012, Molina scored 65 Runs, hit 22 HR, drove in 76, stole 12 Bases and batted .315. Mauer and Posey may have had better single seasons than that but maybe not by the margin you think?
That season was pretty solid and Yadi’s also got the fact that he actually caught for 18 seasons as opposed to two guys who significantly moved off the position (and one of whom also DH’d) and more Gold Glove’s than those two combined, with Mauer winning 3 in the AL and Molina winning them all in the NL, leaving zero for Posey.
Yadi also was the leader of multiple WS winners, was beloved by the fan base and is considered a franchise all time great - just like the other two - and also made the most all star games of the three players. And Mauer and Posey have zero seasons over the age of 35 and 34, respectively, to pull down any rate stats (all players were 21-22 when they debuted) while Yadi is still very productive at 38 and probably plays next season at age 39. Better totals, lower rates…
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@streeter
You got me by age but I collect a lot of your era:
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A little less of a gap than I though but Mauer's best OPS was 157 higher than Yadi's. That's a pretty gigantic gap.
>
Gold gloves have nothing to do with their offensive production, which is what I talking about.
Most of what you said here also has nothing to do with offense. Yadi hit 11 homers with an OPS of .667 this year. He might still be great defensively but he's horrible offensively now (and, no, I don't care that he somehow got an oWAR of 1.0 this year).
Playing catcher?
It sure does; Mauer and Posey are done and will not have the ‘horrible’ seasons that you have alleged Yadi will keep cranking out because he is/was superior defensively and a drop off offensively has not made him a liability at the position and only Yadi has played it exclusively. So Joe and Buster’s rate stats stay higher as a result of retirement because they can’t play the position anymore and hardly did it full time the last 3-4 years, anyway.
But more to the point, if not for playing catcher, none of the three ever even sniff the Hall of Fame. So the ‘better bat’ advantage is borne out true mostly in rate stats and that is why I said similar and not ‘the same.’
Even in this ‘horrible season’ of .252 and 11 HR for Yadi, he did drive in more runs than Buster. And Buster’s 18 HR season isn’t exactly setting the world on fire, either. Both guys had exactly two 20 HR seasons in their career - also pretty similar.
And since their HOF chances are predicated on catching, and this thread is about HOF chances, I raised Molina as having a similar bat and being by far the best defensively.
I stand by that.
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Not first ballot but he gets in.
http://www.unisquare.com/store/brick/
Ralph
Munson and Posey are actually very similar. I think Munson was better, but refer to @dallasactuary 's analysis. I suppose you can make the case that Posey belongs in but Munson doesn't, though I haven't seen anyone attempt that, but the fact remains that in the forty years since Munson "retired" he remains on the outside and in fact he never even got 16% of the vote. Since Munson never got 16% of the vote I think it would be bizarre if Posey went in on the first ballot.
I'm so confused. In what universe is Molina similar to Posey offensively? I've looked at all your arguments in this thread, and they make no sense. Let's compare Molina's 2012 (which you site as proof of offensive similarity) with Posey's 2012. (Comparing Mauer's 2009 would be even worse, but is not necessary.) Just using the stats you cherrypicked to make Molina look similar, recall, Molina had 65 runs, 22 homers, 76 RBI (you may not have mentioned this) and hit .315 with 12 stolen bases. You neglected to mention that Posey scored 78 runs, with 24 homers, 103 RBI but only one stolen base. Oh yes, he led the majors with a .336 average. BTW, Posey also led the majors with a 171 OPS+ (Molina 137) and the NL with 9 Sacrifice Flies (Molina 5).
Bottom line is that Posey was a good enough hitter to play 1693 innings at first (35 games at DH) when he couldn't catch, Mauer 5136 innings at first, 310 games at DH (he didn't have to wait for interleague games), Molina just 110 innings at first, and 4 games as DH.
All this just shows that even when they weren't catching Posey and especially Mauer were able to get their bats in the game. No one ever found that necessity for Molina.
Molina is a great defensive catcher. Posey and Mauer were very, very good hitters. Molina was functional. Functional hitting was enough to get Ozzie Smith into the HoF, and while Molina is a distinctly better hitter than Smith, he isn't close to the defensive reputation (no shame in not having Smith's reputation).
While I'd disagree, you have enough to make a HoF case for Molina and, I suppose, a case for him being better than Posey and Mauer, but you just look silly not acknowledging their offensive superiority.
Albert Pujols, Lance Berkman, Paul Goldschmidt et al are the reasons why Molina doesn’t go to first base on off days while San Fran had Brandon Belt and other marginal talents - that’s why Posey could play first and DH.
While I acknowledged that Posey and Mauer had better ‘best seasons’ than Molina, the overall body of work of production was similar. Posey won one MVP, Molina had two top 5 finishes.
And again, actually catching is part of being a catcher. Re-look at Buster now and give credit for just games he caught and the gap widens. No one calls Craig Biggio a Hall of Fame catcher; he played plenty of games there, though (428).
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@daltex
Here is what I mean by similar:
Buster Posey and Joe Mauer probably could be described as being the same and were both better hitters than Yadier Molina. I do not believe they were ‘vastly superior’ to him but they were better. Thirty guys catch in the bigs and most are truly useless offensive players. Molina is certainly not one of them and many years he was top 5 and just about always top 10 offensively. If you are telling me that Posey and Mauer are a tier unto themselves? I suppose. But it’s not Mauer, Posey in one tier and then trash, is it?
And again, it is worth mentioning that Molina did the actual job of catching his entire career and maintained a .280 career average with 6 extra seasons of wear and tear outright (not including the DH/1B disparity) and four seasons past the age of 34 that have dragged it down some, the career marks, meaning through age 34 they were even closer, with OBP and SLG following suit.
And again, Molina is regarded as one of the best defensive catchers of his era and all time; that’s not true of either Mauer or Posey. And I think we can all agree there is definitely a physical impact to your hitting that occurs by catching every day at a high level.
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You’ll have to let non biased Giants fans figure this one out. Should lincecum get in alongside him 😂
HOF SIGNED FOOTBALL RCS
Ahman: Tim Lincecum was a great story, wasn't he! A tiny, tiny man who learned (from his dad) how to generate incredible velocity and deception -- and he won 2 Cy Young awards! Of course, the tiny man could endure only a handful of seasons before his body broke down -- but it was fun to watch The Freak at the top of his game, wasn't it!
Here's a song to express my emotion (and hopefully yours too) on not getting to watch Lincecum and Posey entertain all of us anymore.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqpOOpvpP1g
Why don't you guys just resume the beating on Aaron Rodgers?
Buster's a dead horse.
After all, stats matter. Right? Just ask Mr Bonds and Rose.
Defensively I think Salvador Perez is as good as any of them.
And he put on a show offensively this year, tying Vlad with 48 dingers and leading with 121 RBI's.
I hate to say it but his main problem is he doesn't walk enough, decent .270 batting avg. but a very
low OBP.
Johnny Bench is no longer the single season leader in home runs by a catcher thanks to Salvy.
Great call! And he’s still got some prime left!
Semi related point is drafting him was the key to my rotisserie title this year (along with Ohtani’s bat round 19)!!!
Shame on me.
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I’m not a stats guy and I’m not beating on Buster at all. I think he’s deserving of the Hall of Fame, myself. Molina too. Mauer, a maybe.
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One Bay-Area hero comments on another:
https://www.knbr.com/2021/11/05/stephen-curry-on-buster-posey-so-cool-to-see-somebody-go-out-on-their-own-terms/?fbclid=IwAR09mTF-pHLGxLwq5L6oFtQYN2Gi15-Pmt66Fm410HnNpI7ZYkQLs-lDxNg
Former major-league pitcher (who is a current Giants announcer) comments on Posey's 1st season in San Fran:
https://www.knbr.com/2021/11/04/krukow-explains-what-buster-posey-did-in-2010-that-hed-never-seen-before-with-a-rookie/?fbclid=IwAR1s1ixttRr0igKzFx8lLXhKouZ5lRJvWkipl6TGYnOm-YK7BfrlIyBFRIM
I don't disagree with any of this. If you look above you'll see I describe Mauer and Posey offensively as "Very good" and Molina as "Functional." No one is suggesting that Molina's hitting is "trash". No one is suggesting he is Omar Vizquel. But there is still a huge gap between "Very good" and "Functional". It's like saying that Ozzie Smith was better than Cal Ripken because Smith was a better defensive shortstop and they were similar offensively. Most of the rest of your argument is the same, actually. I think that Smith and Ripken were closer offensively than Molina is to Posey/Mauer, actually. You can make a case for either one as the best shortstop of his day, but you can't make THAT case for Smith. Similarly for Molina.
I refuse to speculate as to how well Molina would have hit had he only had the physical ravages of playing DH. I stand by his batting, his actual batting, being far worse than that of Mauer and Posey.
Seriously? You think that Molina's MVP votes were for his offense? Braun, not to mention Posey was vastly superior in 2012 and Goldschmidt in 2013. Had Molina been a corner outfielder those years he wouldn't have gotten a single vote.
And now you're being silly. Biggio played five times as many innings at second than behind the plate. Even Mauer played 50% more innings behind the plate than at first.
Now who’s being silly? You’re claiming he was going to win MVP because of defense? Really? That’s what you’re going with?
Really?
I love it. Tell me more…
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Man, I wish I had the 45 seconds it took to read this back.
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Let's be nice guys -- we're all just sports fans -- maybe we're even friends?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj4551M2Qjk
We can debate whether "he was going to win MVP", but the fact is that he only got any votes at all because he had the reputation of being an elite defender at a key position. His offense was very good in 2012. Not great. Certainly not elite. His offense in 2012 is eerily similar to that of Allen Craig, who was a first baseman who played a little corner outfield that year all without distinction and was largely ignored in MVP voting.
Like it or not, Craig is Molina's offensive peer at his peak, not Posey or Mauer.
Rather than go with obscure players with 6 year careers who never played catcher, I would like to stick with the actual two players and see how your argument holds up.
So, I just took the best three year stretch of Buster Posey and the best three year stretch of Molina and added them up. Here are the results.
Buster Posey (2012-14): 211R, 61 HR, 264 RBI, .314 AVG, Yearly MVP voting finish 1, 20, 6
Yadier Molina (2011-13): 188 R, 50 HR, 221 RBI, .313 AVG, Yearly MVP voting finish 21, 3, 4
And it works out pretty good since there’s overlap of two seasons and both teams were pretty good clubs in the same league in that span. In total, Posey was good for a shade under 8 more runs scored, a shade under 4 more homers and a shade under 15 extra RBI at the catching position annually, with no appreciable difference in batting average. Also noteworthy, I think, is DHing and playing first base resulted in about thirty extra games (total, or 10 per year) played over the prime three year span for Buster Posey. So if the car
Now, that’s their primes against one another.
I’ve never suggested we call them the same player offensively. The word I used was similar.
However, I do think the word similar to describe them is quite fair.
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Adding to above more three year totals…
Posey - 101 2B, 4 3B, 3 SB, 176 BB
Molina - 104 2B, 1 3B, 17 SB, 105 BB
23 extra walks a season: Advantage Buster Posey
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@daltex
When you chimed in originally, it was seemingly to explain to me that Buster Posey had a better 2012, the year Posey won MVP and had by far his best single season of his career, than did Yadier Molina.
That’s a point I would have happily conceded, but, again, Yadier Molina did finish 4th in the MVP voting that very year meaning that the Baseball Writers of America (and me) thought that they had similar seasons. Even the WAR’s that they posted (Posey 7.9 and Molina 7.2, finishing first and second in the NL, and ahead of Braun and McCutcheon’s 6.9) suggests that they were most certainly of similar value in the single greatest season of Buster Posey’s career).
😉
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Posy and Molina were not at all similar. They may have had similar value, but far more of Posey's value came from his offense. Since you seem constitutionally unable of accepting this fact, I'm done. There really is no point in attempting to convince you further, and I expect everyone else here understands.
Yes, I am unable to accept your opinion as fact.
No one should ever accept an opinion as a fact.
So, you are ‘done’ because the facts no longer support your argument - and I expect everyone else here understands.
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@daltex
I did more math.
I do not like doing math. 😂
Average “prime” season by Posey:
148 Games, 70 R, 33 2B, 1 3B, 20 HR, 88 RBI, 1 SB, 58 BB, .314
Average “prime” season by Molina:
138 Games, 64 R, 34 2B, 0 3B, 17 HR, 74 RBI, 6 SB, 35 BB, .313
Again, same league, same basic time period, same position.
Similar production, and maybe even a little more so when you consider the 10 extra games played by Buster Posey each season.
Now, does this still make ‘no sense’ to you, as you originally stated?
Also, with the numbers laid out so nicely, can you use them to explain the whole ‘functional, very good, elite’ thing to me? It looks to me like Yadi goes from functional to elite with 6 additional runs, 3 more HR, 11 more men driven in (since he scores on the 3 HR) and 23 more walks a year. And actually, slightly less if we are allowed to posit that they play the same number of games…
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can you supply the slash lines for both? RBI and Runs Scored are both bad metrics with which to measure player performance since they are almost entirely dependant on teammates abilities.
was the production of both players performed with a similar number of ABs?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I could but they’re basically derivative of the numbers above and will require more math. 😁
The 23 extra walks means a slightly higher OBP and the 14ish more extra base hits will mean a slightly higher SLG.
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https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/poseybu01.shtml
That’s Posey’s…
@craig44
Its around 30 extra plate appearances per year for Posey for their respective three year primes, give or take.
More Data:
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/molinya01.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/molinya01.shtml
Now, I do not see any massive difference in these two players offensively. Buster Posey had a spectacular 2012 and that single season is the best by either player - a point I have already conceded - but never had another season quite like that again. If you stack ALL their best seasons or look at their three year prime, it looks to me like Buster Posey is a little bit better with the bat. I do not view the differences between them as massive, especially when comparing them to other catchers. And again, I don’t hold career duration (12 years and 18 years) against either guy. They each played the same brutal position and the body wears down with age to begin with. However, since it’s fair to assume some level of decline with age, I don’t think using the last four years and the impact it’s had on his career averages would be fair to Molina without putting those seasons in that context.
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Also, please note that at no time did I disparage Buster Posey or @daltex , for that matter.
I am offering backup for my statement that Yadier Molina is the best catcher of this generation. And I was questioned on the first part of the statement that he was ‘similar offensively and vastly superior defensively.’
Perhaps another fun way to do it might be to take Yadier’s prime three seasons and insert them into Buster’s line and see if they stand out as his clear worst seasons or blend in nicely with every other season of his career, excepting 2012.
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And, lastly, I enjoy this discussion, these types of discussions and the CU Forums at large.
If someone feels my posts make no sense, then I feel obligated to try to explain it better.
If they still can’t appreciate my point of view? No problem - people are allowed to see the same things differently. I think, anyway.
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An Oakland A's perspective -- wow, I really like this analysis:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ERc3kVfZm8
Nice catch. Unfortunately everything on that video is not suitable for a trading card so will be ignored by guys who think the card is the final say.
Top 10 Seasons in Batter Runs (0.0 is average):
Posey
55.5
31.5
27.5
26.8
24.1
23.6
17.9
14.6
6.4
4.5
Molina
27.0
20.5
15.6
9.6
1.8
1.7
1.6
-2.0
-3.3
-3.6
You can do this exercise with pretty much any worthwhile measure of offensive value and it looks the same. I don't know how the word "similar" even occurred to anyone when thinking about Posey's and Molina's offense. I am a huge fan of Molina, I would vote for him for the HOF, and he will breeze into the HOF. But that is entirely because of his defense. His offense peaked, briefly, at "good", and he's spent the majority of his career as "below average".
Gene Tenace, by the way, loses the top season to Posey, but then beats him in all of the other 9.
Thanks for that last sentence which virtually invalidates ‘Batter Runs’ as a stat since we all know (besides you, of course) that Gene Tennace sucked.
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Hitter bats
Posey
9.8
6.3
5.4
5.2
4.9
4.9
4.7
4.0
Molina
8.1
6.2
5.2
5.0
4.8
4.6
4.6
4.1
See, now they’re similar based on the one number I just put forth in Hitter Bats.
This is fun!
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What years are you using as Molina's "prime" ? Considering he only ever hit 17 homers twice in his 18-year career, how is that his "average" for his prime?
2011-2013
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…and that’s Posey.
I never realized that baseball-reference.com did the calculations for you - that’s a gem.
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Careful. Now you're not just insulting me (which is always fine) but everyone else, too. I know a handful of people stupid enough to think Gene Tenace sucked, but the folks here generally understand baseball, and how to evaluate batters. Ask one of them; you'll see.
Please don’t construe a lighthearted joke as an insult.
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For the record, Molina hit 17 or more homers three times. I'm apparently blind.
Also, three years is a pretty short prime.