It's astonishing that the 1742 Mexico Pillar Dollar in 66 brought almost as much as the 1770 Nuevo Reino Pillar Dollar in 64. (55K hammer vs. 60K hammer.) Are those two grade points really worth as much as the difference between a coin with thousands known and a coin with only 14 known? There are so many great opportunities out there, and so many traps.
Yes there may be only 14 known but 4 of those are graded 64 by NGC ….!
According to Heritage’s description of the 1742 pillar in 66 they said out of over 10,000 graded Mexican pillars there were only 3 graded in 66.
I just find the 1742 pillar in PCGS 66 to be the more iconic coin.
Thats’s just me.
There are many thousands of MS Mexican pillar dollars, and at least hundreds of thousands in all grades. There are perhaps two dozen Colombian pillar dollars of all dates and grades, combined.
I understand what your saying ....kinda reminds me of Gobrecht dollars and Morgan dolllars.
I just don't understand why if there were milllions of pillars made for circulation...why there are not more in 66 or better
as there are like morgan dollars.
Obviously a bidding war last night on the 1742 pillar.
I did see both the MS 65 ( which went for 36k) and the MS 66 pillars in hand at the USMEX show which auctioned last evening and in my opinion there was a very stark differnce in eye appeal between both as the 66 was lights out fantastic.
Of course only 30k more in cost too!
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
When you look at the US market, have you ever considered a price adjustment correlating with inflation? The percentage of coins overall that have outpaced inflation is very low.
When it comes to the World market. It was only a mater of time before more and more people started collecting and realizing many were undervalued. The world market is just beginning to mature when you compare it to the US market.
I literally made a fortune selling my collection with the majority purchased form say 1990-2005. I sold the majority from 2005-2010. I would say my overall gain was in the 1000% range. If I had the collection back now and sold it I would say the gain would probably be in the 15-1700% range. It would be higher if the Russian market hadn't tanked.
Both the 65 and 66 were conserved, high grade widgets which clearly played well to people with more money than brains. I can’t see a real connoisseur buying either of those two coins
It's astonishing that the 1742 Mexico Pillar Dollar in 66 brought almost as much as the 1770 Nuevo Reino Pillar Dollar in 64. (55K hammer vs. 60K hammer.) Are those two grade points really worth as much as the difference between a coin with thousands known and a coin with only 14 known? There are so many great opportunities out there, and so many traps.
Yes there may be only 14 known but 4 of those are graded 64 by NGC ….!
According to Heritage’s description of the 1742 pillar in 66 they said out of over 10,000 graded Mexican pillars there were only 3 graded in 66.
I just find the 1742 pillar in PCGS 66 to be the more iconic coin.
Thats’s just me.
There are many thousands of MS Mexican pillar dollars, and at least hundreds of thousands in all grades. There are perhaps two dozen Colombian pillar dollars of all dates and grades, combined.
I understand what your saying ....kinda reminds me of Gobrecht dollars and Morgan dolllars.
I just don't understand why if there were milllions of pillars made for circulation...why there are not more in 66 or better
as there are like morgan dollars.
First of all, neither was made for “circulation.” Crowns have always been intended to be a store of value not a means of exchange.
Second, Morgan dollars were never minted to be used, but as a political tool for the government to buy Western silver (corporate welfare, if you will). They weren’t needed or wanted.
Pillars weren’t made to be used either, but as a means of enriching the mother country by exporting wealth from a colony.
Third, the US was already a relatively wealthy country when Morgans were minted, and they went right into bank vaults mostly never to be seen for decades.
Pillars on the other hand were mostly melted when they reached the continent and either recoined or used in other ways. And a large percentage of the survivors did so at the bottom of the ocean. Don’t forget the world was a much rougher (and poorer) place in the 18th century vs the 19th.
Spain was perpetually in debt from various wars and had no use for Pillars from the colonies other than to trade it.
I spent a few decades playing in US coins focusing on mint state early date Lincoln cents, proof buffalos and saints. I mostly achieved what I was after and my interest eventually dulled and somewhat floundered.
In time, I ended up in noticing world medallic art medals and I’m having a blast! Probably better time than I’ve ever had collecting coins to date. As I jumped ship from US, everything seems like a bargain. I’ve brought with it my comfort in spending 4 figures to a 3 figure arena. I imagine upon entering this arena I’m more comfortable spending here at current levels than say someone who remembers when these were 2 figures. Oh well.
I suppose I could analyze what these markets are doing and influenced by, but my point will focus on my perception. Firing the cannon on something expensive alone doesn’t necessarily get me off anymore, or wondering how good I should feel based on if I make money or can get out alive. It’s good for me to remember I can change what is going on between my ears more that what’s externally influencing markets. Instead, analyze if I’m having fun or not.
I have considered US coins to be a poor value for the money for some time. If I were to start collecting again I would avoid US coins entirely because of the current pricing.
The trend of collecting minor "errors" and "varieties" is a reaction to this problem of high priced US coins. The collectors are looking for something that they can actually afford.
Yes, this is a good topic. However IMHO, this not an all or none issue. I think that the general rise of prices of topend material and gold, etc. is starting to "funnel" collectors a bit, and I am not sure the buyers of such (eg the Heritage sale last night) are as much actual collectors in the traditional sense - as has been stated to some degree by previous posters.
Many of these IMO do not have real love or necessarily appreciation of these pieces but rather they be grabbed as trophies and then forgotten about or flipped in short order. Perfect example would be the E8 5 Pounds coin which changes hands almost like a hot potato in what in my opinion is an almost comical state of affairs.
This has driven many to other "lesser" fields and this would include me. I still hold extraordinary rarities because I appreciate them but only very occasionally add to this collection.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
@bidask said:
Strong prices at platinum auction Heritage going on now!
Wowee!
What coins went so high that it was mind blowing? I saw some ultra rare gold coins and a few patterns sell high but those probably almost never ever show up for auction and what are you going to do wait another 10-20 years.
Pretty much all tiers moved up from the ones I have been tracking, AUs selling at low MS prices, MS-64s selling as full GEMS, and beyond is anyone's guess.
@KingOfMorganDollar said:
I doubt it will last some new intense blood but when they get what they want they will slow down. Ultra rare coins and coins that only come up for auction every decade or so will be different.
These buyers may end up losing their shirts when it comes back to selling them. They may have had 2-3 intense bidders today but what if only 1 is there when the next time they come up for sale it is risky. This is not US coins or coins from China those I would be less worried about long term.
I am sure we can dig up similar threads here saying the same years ago. Asset prices are moving up and World Coins are a relative bargain in designs, price points, history, when benchmarked to US coins. Emerging markets are gaining wealth and some is flowing into the hobby.
@pruebas said:
So it's a race to the bottom? I know for sure that I'm not about to start collecting coins from circulation. I'd just as soon leave the hobby entirely. I agree I'd make a killing on the sale of my current collection, but what fun would that be?
Prices went up 300% in the last few years , even in my field of interest (1984). I am getting closer and closer to be unable to buy..Some of the gold and platinum pieces are already beyond my buying power. I can still find some rare and cheap coin sometimes, but this is happening less often nowadays.
I moved from US coins to World coins for a lot of reasons, including history, artistry, relative rarity (and thrill of the hunt). But part of it was a cost consideration - I couldn't afford the coins I wanted in the condition I wanted.
I'm happy for prices to go up... modestly... but if they go through the moon I'll probably find another area to play in.
There has always been and always will be more coins available to collect than collectors to absorb them, so there is no reason for the recent prices seen to drive away collectors. As I see it, the biggest problem is likely to be for those who collect by numbers and are only going to be happy with top pops or similar.
Maybe the prices seen of late will encourage more people to examine the contents of the slab more carefully because there are a lot of coins in slightly lower grades that are the equal of the 'best' or even surpass them. This point came to mind earlier this year when a George III third guinea was listed in a St. James's sale in London. Marketing hype said graded MS63 with only the Terner coin graded higher. I have the Terner coin which I bought as a decent example of the type, with no regard to the label. Having seen the 63, admittedly from a picture only, I can say I would probably have bought the lower graded coin before the higher one based on images.
US coins are more expensive than most world coins, and that portion of the hobby isn't dead. I'm struggling to think of any hobby that has been killed by high prices.
@neildrobertson said:
US coins are more expensive than most world coins, and that portion of the hobby isn't dead. I'm struggling to think of any hobby that has been killed by high prices.
Everyone keeps saying this as though it were gospel. US coins are not ALL more expensive than world coins. Although a direct comparison is difficult, I would venture to say many world coins (Una & Lion, super graded slabs, etc.) have gotten up there with US coins on the price level.
I, for one, have actually branched out back to US coins, though not regular Federal issues, but colonials, tokens, and pattern or two. For the most part, these have not gotten blown out of proportion like Federal US coins.
Were you able to get 1 of the 2? Do you mind sharing the links here or threw PM? They sure did have some beautiful gold coins but to rich for my blood.
@KingOfMorganDollar said:
I was able to purchase the 1733 8 Reales from Mexico NGC Authentic a big one for me.
There are several varieties of 1733 Pillars. You should be more specific. You bought the 1733-MoMF small crown Pillar 8R. The large crown is the rare one.
@KingOfMorganDollar said:
I was able to purchase the 1733 8 Reales from Mexico NGC Authentic a big one for me.
There are several varieties of 1733-Mo Pillars. You should be more specific. You bought the 1733-MoMF small crown Pillar 8R. The large crown is the rare one.
Sorry....I doubt I will ever own the 3 rarer ones maybe add the 2 others (I believe there are 6 types correct?) some day who knows once I start hitting a wall of been able to buy stuff for long periods of time I may go after those depending how expensive they are by that time. If not this one will do just fine.
@KingOfMorganDollar said:
I was able to purchase the 1733 8 Reales from Mexico NGC Authentic a big one for me.
There are several varieties of 1733-Mo Pillars. You should be more specific. You bought the 1733-MoMF small crown Pillar 8R. The large crown is the rare one.
Sorry....I doubt I will ever own the 3 rarer ones maybe add the 2 others (I believe there are 6 types correct?) some day who knows once I start hitting a wall of been able to buy stuff for long periods of time I may go after those depending how expensive they are by that time. If not this one will do just fine.
Look at pages 76-81 of this catalog for a good education.
Sorry to here that there is always a next time. I have been down that road many times as a collectors some nights nothing gives. Sometimes we lose but we live to fight another day.
@KingOfMorganDollar said:
I was able to purchase the 1733 8 Reales from Mexico NGC Authentic a big one for me.
There are several varieties of 1733-Mo Pillars. You should be more specific. You bought the 1733-MoMF small crown Pillar 8R. The large crown is the rare one.
Sorry....I doubt I will ever own the 3 rarer ones maybe add the 2 others (I believe there are 6 types correct?) some day who knows once I start hitting a wall of been able to buy stuff for long periods of time I may go after those depending how expensive they are by that time. If not this one will do just fine.
Look at pages 76-81 of this catalog for a good education.
Thanks I appreciate it I will read it for sure!! Looking forward for Brad Yonaka to come out with his updated version that includes the Mexican 8 reales. Hopefully sooner rather than later.
@bidask said:
I don’t believe high prices will this hobby .
How can they ….?
Everything find its own level of value over time.
Back to my example of Morgan dollars and Gobrecht dollars …..
I believe the finest known Morgan dollar brought more at auction than the finest known Gobrecht dollar ….
Why do you think that is ?
For starters, the finest known Morgan dollar is probably a common date, so probably not as much as the finest known Gobrecht. But to your point, yes, obviously there are more collectors of Morgans than Gobrechts, and more collectors of Mexican than Colombian. Still, you won’t catch me buying a slabbed 81-S Morgan in 69 anytime soon, or the Mexican equivalent.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@jgenn Since my interests frequently are more in the history genre rather than the numismatics, I frequently go after the "dreck" simply because I need or want it as an exemplar. Unfortunately, yes, inflation or whatever has hit this market, as well. Too often, I have been blown away by the prices. True garbage seems unaffected, however. Even I have standards!
Honors flysis Income beezis Onches nobis Inob keesis
@bidask said:
I don’t believe high prices will this hobby .
How can they ….?
Everything find its own level of value over time.
Back to my example of Morgan dollars and Gobrecht dollars …..
I believe the finest known Morgan dollar brought more at auction than the finest known Gobrecht dollar ….
Why do you think that is ?
For starters, the finest known Morgan dollar is probably a common date, so probably not as much as the finest known Gobrecht. But to your point, yes, obviously there are more collectors of Morgans than Gobrechts, and more collectors of Mexican than Colombian. Still, you won’t catch me buying a slabbed 81-S Morgan in 69 anytime soon, or the Mexican equivalent.
You won't catch me either buying a 1880 S ms 69 over the finest gobrecht dollar . But i can understand why the Mexican pillar had the bidding it had over the Colombian pillar, besides the 1770 date as i mentioned had 4 graded NGC 64 so not really rare.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
We collect what we can afford I can't afford to many numerical graded coins but I understand that some can afford MS coins to each his own it is a hobby to enjoy that is what matters. Some will make more money long term owning higher grades that is OK as well.
Usually rising prices indicate hobby health, not hobby death.
The only caveat is if the prices are being driven by investors, which seems less likely. If the case, eventually the bottom falls out, but the hobby won’t die.
Rising prices also has the benefit of bringing nice things out of hiding.
Rising prices might price one out of certain collecting interests, but there are always other areas.
I'm not crazy about generalizations. I think there are plenty of "opportunists" out there that are NOT classical collectors and doubt they love other than the number [of dollars] attached to particular coins. They are blowing up the top end of many markets and IMO are destroying many of them. And to top it of these are many times referred to as "serious" or "advanced" collectors. PLEASE!
They probably will not kill the hobby but are doing IMHO huge damage, not just by making the more expensive coins moreso but also hurting interest at the "base". One only has only to objectively witness the inverted age-pyramid demographics of who really are at coin shows and events, the decreased number of coin shops or stores, or take a look at the sales of yearly US mint and proof sets. So on and so on....
These phenomena are probably due to many factors but certainly removing higher end coins from the potential grasp of young or newer collectors likely dims their interests. I remember thinking at 9 or 10 years of age that I might be able to one day get a $50 slug or $20 assay piece and that with just a minimal summer job get some California territorial minors...
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
@7Jaguars said:
I'm not crazy about generalizations. I think there are plenty of "opportunists" out there that are NOT classical collectors and doubt they love other than the number [of dollars] attached to particular coins. They are blowing up the top end of many markets and IMO are destroying many of them. And to top it of these are many times referred to as "serious" or "advanced" collectors. PLEASE!
They probably will not kill the hobby but are doing IMHO huge damage, not just by making the more expensive coins moreso but also hurting interest at the "base". One only has only to objectively witness the inverted age-pyramid demographics of who really are at coin shows and events, the decreased number of coin shops or stores, or take a look at the sales of yearly US mint and proof sets. So on and so on....
These phenomena are probably due to many factors but certainly removing higher end coins from the potential grasp of young or newer collectors likely dims their interests. I remember thinking at 9 or 10 years of age that I might be able to one day get a $50 slug or $20 assay piece and that with just a minimal summer job get some California territorial minors...
Hopefully they leave and find other venues. Let us true collectors enjoy our hobby in peace.
Or all this may be very real as well more and more people of say Mexican decent living a better financial life in say the USA and are now able to collect their cultural heritage coins. Who knows we will have to wait and see. I do not mean anything bad by this post by the way just maybe a possibility we are ignoring.
There will be rotation in the world coin market as several areas have been neglected and others just flat out misunderstood and under-researched. New World coinage up through about the first quarter of the Twentieth century has done well with some pockets doing better than others. Condition rarities are just in a different classification than the US market. And what I mean by that is that there are several Morgans in the 66-67 range that some will suggest constitute a condition rarity... but are they in contrast to 8R Cap & Rays or even various European Crowns? The US market matured and TPG helped speed up the process. And as more 8R and other world coins are graded, I suspect the line will become even more clear in terms of the difference.
I mentioned on the US forum that our host has not graded a Mint State George I Crown. I made reference to a 1723 half crown graded MS63 by NGC that auctioned for $11K and suggested that if it were a US coin, you could likely put a zero behind it and still be 100K short.
For whatever reason, I am not convinced that there is much thought or analysis behind what motivates collectors or the end result of a coin's hammer price at auction. Seems to be more momentum and how buzz creates interest. Seems fear and greed play a greater role which is simply how most markets work.
Back to the question... high prices create opportunities. At some point, reality will set in and the coins that created buzz will be replaced by others yet to be promoted to develop a following that will be the buzz of tomorrow...
It will happen... it always has.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Problem with most world coins is the lack of books on the subject as a Mexican coin collector some are very hard to locate took me almost a full year to get most of them and a cost of 2000$ that is a lot of money to learn compared to say Canada, Great Britain or the USA.
I will never sell my books as I am sure most here will not either so for new collectors they will have an even harder time finding them for sale. Some are next to impossible to locate even if you have the funds.
At one point I wanted to collect Russian or German coins but just could not find any books so I just let it go and moved on. If Mexico did not have any books I would have done the same thing just to many risks for a new collector that has zero knowledge to jump into a country and collect with almost no compass to use as a guide.
You can buy a red book or a Canadian coin price guide for less that 50$ and get a lot of knowledge for a rookie collector that is impossible with Mexico. 50$ will almost get you no where knowledge wise. Sure there are a few good buys at that price but you have to locate the books and know what you are even looking for. How far can you go not even knowing the titles of the books you need to buy.
I paid almost 250$ (Canadian) for my 1st book and almost gave up before even going threw with the deal just scared me to spend such money on a whole new area that I was not even sure I would like or could even afford. Glad I did now but at 250$ (Canadian) for a book it is scary.
The authors are not making any new print runs for the most part and as mentioned good luck finding them all and piecing all the knowledge together took me 8-9 months and reading and reading every single day and wanting to quit some days but just kept going.
Geez I purchased my 1824 8 reales Upright Eagle from Mexico thinking I was getting some type of prototype coin that is how lost I was at first. Glad I got it still have it and will keep it because I now know what I own. It is like landing on a different planet and starting with nothing but guesses it is nerve wrecking.
I also had to purchase at least 10-12 books on the history of the countries I now collect again I knew almost nothing and even a year in I have a lot to learn about some nations still. All this is almost like doing a master's degree at university your alone and you get little help (except here on this forum) and you have to hope what you are learning is correct and not just your own interpretation.
What happens if they want to sell is they try to sell privately for a profit over the inflated price they paid. When they fail to find a sucker (and they will), they hang on forever unless absolutely forced to sell. But they usually hang on forever, hence the coins are off the market until they pass away and the wife puts them in auction. When the first group don't do as well as she was promised (or they bring less than he paid), she too hangs onto them until she passes. I've seen this first hand in my area of specialty.
It’s always the wives that collectors and dealers wait for, to sell the belongings of the departed. I can assure you, daughters are even more eager and efficient too…😉
What happens if they want to sell is they try to sell privately for a profit over the inflated price they paid. When they fail to find a sucker (and they will), they hang on forever unless absolutely forced to sell. But they usually hang on forever, hence the coins are off the market until they pass away and the wife puts them in auction. When the first group don't do as well as she was promised (or they bring less than he paid), she too hangs onto them until she passes. I've seen this first hand in my area of specialty.
It’s always the wives that collectors and dealers wait for, to sell the belongings of the departed. I can assure you, daughters are even more eager and efficient too…😉
I have neither girlfriend/wife or children and that will remain so. I love been alone with my pet and my hobbies. When the time comes will sell and donate to my local animal shelter or have it set up like that in my will.
Comments
I understand what your saying ....kinda reminds me of Gobrecht dollars and Morgan dolllars.
I just don't understand why if there were milllions of pillars made for circulation...why there are not more in 66 or better
as there are like morgan dollars.
Obviously a bidding war last night on the 1742 pillar.
I did see both the MS 65 ( which went for 36k) and the MS 66 pillars in hand at the USMEX show which auctioned last evening and in my opinion there was a very stark differnce in eye appeal between both as the 66 was lights out fantastic.
Of course only 30k more in cost too!
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I say it's about time!
When you look at the US market, have you ever considered a price adjustment correlating with inflation? The percentage of coins overall that have outpaced inflation is very low.
When it comes to the World market. It was only a mater of time before more and more people started collecting and realizing many were undervalued. The world market is just beginning to mature when you compare it to the US market.
I literally made a fortune selling my collection with the majority purchased form say 1990-2005. I sold the majority from 2005-2010. I would say my overall gain was in the 1000% range. If I had the collection back now and sold it I would say the gain would probably be in the 15-1700% range. It would be higher if the Russian market hadn't tanked.
Both the 65 and 66 were conserved, high grade widgets which clearly played well to people with more money than brains. I can’t see a real connoisseur buying either of those two coins
Latin American Collection
First of all, neither was made for “circulation.” Crowns have always been intended to be a store of value not a means of exchange.
Second, Morgan dollars were never minted to be used, but as a political tool for the government to buy Western silver (corporate welfare, if you will). They weren’t needed or wanted.
Pillars weren’t made to be used either, but as a means of enriching the mother country by exporting wealth from a colony.
Third, the US was already a relatively wealthy country when Morgans were minted, and they went right into bank vaults mostly never to be seen for decades.
Pillars on the other hand were mostly melted when they reached the continent and either recoined or used in other ways. And a large percentage of the survivors did so at the bottom of the ocean. Don’t forget the world was a much rougher (and poorer) place in the 18th century vs the 19th.
Spain was perpetually in debt from various wars and had no use for Pillars from the colonies other than to trade it.
I spent a few decades playing in US coins focusing on mint state early date Lincoln cents, proof buffalos and saints. I mostly achieved what I was after and my interest eventually dulled and somewhat floundered.
In time, I ended up in noticing world medallic art medals and I’m having a blast! Probably better time than I’ve ever had collecting coins to date. As I jumped ship from US, everything seems like a bargain. I’ve brought with it my comfort in spending 4 figures to a 3 figure arena. I imagine upon entering this arena I’m more comfortable spending here at current levels than say someone who remembers when these were 2 figures. Oh well.
I suppose I could analyze what these markets are doing and influenced by, but my point will focus on my perception. Firing the cannon on something expensive alone doesn’t necessarily get me off anymore, or wondering how good I should feel based on if I make money or can get out alive. It’s good for me to remember I can change what is going on between my ears more that what’s externally influencing markets. Instead, analyze if I’m having fun or not.
I have considered US coins to be a poor value for the money for some time. If I were to start collecting again I would avoid US coins entirely because of the current pricing.
The trend of collecting minor "errors" and "varieties" is a reaction to this problem of high priced US coins. The collectors are looking for something that they can actually afford.
Yes, this is a good topic. However IMHO, this not an all or none issue. I think that the general rise of prices of topend material and gold, etc. is starting to "funnel" collectors a bit, and I am not sure the buyers of such (eg the Heritage sale last night) are as much actual collectors in the traditional sense - as has been stated to some degree by previous posters.
Many of these IMO do not have real love or necessarily appreciation of these pieces but rather they be grabbed as trophies and then forgotten about or flipped in short order. Perfect example would be the E8 5 Pounds coin which changes hands almost like a hot potato in what in my opinion is an almost comical state of affairs.
This has driven many to other "lesser" fields and this would include me. I still hold extraordinary rarities because I appreciate them but only very occasionally add to this collection.
Well, just Love coins, period.
Pretty much all tiers moved up from the ones I have been tracking, AUs selling at low MS prices, MS-64s selling as full GEMS, and beyond is anyone's guess.
Here is one as an example - https://coins.ha.com/itm/german-states/teutonic-order/german-states-teutonic-order-maximilian-i-of-austria-taler-1603-ms64-ngc-/a/3093-30086.s?ic2=mybidspage-lotlinks-12202013&tab=MyBids-101116
Taler Custom Set
Ancient Custom Set
I am sure we can dig up similar threads here saying the same years ago. Asset prices are moving up and World Coins are a relative bargain in designs, price points, history, when benchmarked to US coins. Emerging markets are gaining wealth and some is flowing into the hobby.
Taler Custom Set
Ancient Custom Set
Very tempting... but, not yet
Taler Custom Set
Ancient Custom Set
Prices went up 300% in the last few years , even in my field of interest (1984). I am getting closer and closer to be unable to buy..Some of the gold and platinum pieces are already beyond my buying power. I can still find some rare and cheap coin sometimes, but this is happening less often nowadays.
Coinsof1984@martinb6830 on twitter
I moved from US coins to World coins for a lot of reasons, including history, artistry, relative rarity (and thrill of the hunt). But part of it was a cost consideration - I couldn't afford the coins I wanted in the condition I wanted.
I'm happy for prices to go up... modestly... but if they go through the moon I'll probably find another area to play in.
My current "Box of 20"
There has always been and always will be more coins available to collect than collectors to absorb them, so there is no reason for the recent prices seen to drive away collectors. As I see it, the biggest problem is likely to be for those who collect by numbers and are only going to be happy with top pops or similar.
Maybe the prices seen of late will encourage more people to examine the contents of the slab more carefully because there are a lot of coins in slightly lower grades that are the equal of the 'best' or even surpass them. This point came to mind earlier this year when a George III third guinea was listed in a St. James's sale in London. Marketing hype said graded MS63 with only the Terner coin graded higher. I have the Terner coin which I bought as a decent example of the type, with no regard to the label. Having seen the 63, admittedly from a picture only, I can say I would probably have bought the lower graded coin before the higher one based on images.
US coins are more expensive than most world coins, and that portion of the hobby isn't dead. I'm struggling to think of any hobby that has been killed by high prices.
IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
"Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me
Everyone keeps saying this as though it were gospel. US coins are not ALL more expensive than world coins. Although a direct comparison is difficult, I would venture to say many world coins (Una & Lion, super graded slabs, etc.) have gotten up there with US coins on the price level.
I, for one, have actually branched out back to US coins, though not regular Federal issues, but colonials, tokens, and pattern or two. For the most part, these have not gotten blown out of proportion like Federal US coins.
And yes, high prices kill most good things.
This one sold for a lot as many coins did in this auction.
https://coins.ha.com/itm/mexico/zacatecas/mexico-zacatecas-war-of-independence-ferdinand-vii-provisional-8-reales-1811-lvo-xf45-ngc-/a/3093-31553.s
Coin collecting interests: Latin America
Sports: NFL & NHL
I don't mind prices going up but little by little so we can continue collecting.
Coin collecting interests: Latin America
Sports: NFL & NHL
Some collect so many series maybe it will come a time to focus on 1 or 2 and be content for many of us.
Coin collecting interests: Latin America
Sports: NFL & NHL
Believe it or not, I thought there were some bargains tonight at Heritage. Surprising but true!
I was able to purchase the 1733 8 Reales from Mexico NGC Authentic a big one for me.
Coin collecting interests: Latin America
Sports: NFL & NHL
I did not see those. But looks like I do not have to pay for dinner, yet I was the underbid on the coin...
What coin where you after or coins?
Coin collecting interests: Latin America
Sports: NFL & NHL
@KingOfMorganDollar Both a Mexico 50 Centavos a d a Durango 8 escudos.
Were you able to get 1 of the 2? Do you mind sharing the links here or threw PM? They sure did have some beautiful gold coins but to rich for my blood.
Coin collecting interests: Latin America
Sports: NFL & NHL
There are several varieties of 1733 Pillars. You should be more specific. You bought the 1733-MoMF small crown Pillar 8R. The large crown is the rare one.
Sorry....I doubt I will ever own the 3 rarer ones maybe add the 2 others (I believe there are 6 types correct?) some day who knows once I start hitting a wall of been able to buy stuff for long periods of time I may go after those depending how expensive they are by that time. If not this one will do just fine.
Coin collecting interests: Latin America
Sports: NFL & NHL
@KingOfMorganDollar I bought none, was outbid on both.
Look at pages 76-81 of this catalog for a good education.
Stacks Bowers Ponterio Catalog, November 2014
Sorry to here that there is always a next time. I have been down that road many times as a collectors some nights nothing gives. Sometimes we lose but we live to fight another day.
Coin collecting interests: Latin America
Sports: NFL & NHL
Thanks I appreciate it I will read it for sure!! Looking forward for Brad Yonaka to come out with his updated version that includes the Mexican 8 reales. Hopefully sooner rather than later.
Coin collecting interests: Latin America
Sports: NFL & NHL
Good read, I appreciate the link.
Edit: page 9 was informative
I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it - Clint Eastwood
I don’t believe high prices will not kill this hobby .
How can they ….?
Everything find its own level of value over time.
Back to my example of Morgan dollars and Gobrecht dollars …..
I believe the finest known Morgan dollar brought more at auction than the finest known Gobrecht dollar ….
Why do you think that is ?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
For starters, the finest known Morgan dollar is probably a common date, so probably not as much as the finest known Gobrecht. But to your point, yes, obviously there are more collectors of Morgans than Gobrechts, and more collectors of Mexican than Colombian. Still, you won’t catch me buying a slabbed 81-S Morgan in 69 anytime soon, or the Mexican equivalent.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@jgenn Since my interests frequently are more in the history genre rather than the numismatics, I frequently go after the "dreck" simply because I need or want it as an exemplar. Unfortunately, yes, inflation or whatever has hit this market, as well. Too often, I have been blown away by the prices. True garbage seems unaffected, however. Even I have standards!
DPOTD
You won't catch me either buying a 1880 S ms 69 over the finest gobrecht dollar . But i can understand why the Mexican pillar had the bidding it had over the Colombian pillar, besides the 1770 date as i mentioned had 4 graded NGC 64 so not really rare.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
We collect what we can afford I can't afford to many numerical graded coins but I understand that some can afford MS coins to each his own it is a hobby to enjoy that is what matters. Some will make more money long term owning higher grades that is OK as well.
Coin collecting interests: Latin America
Sports: NFL & NHL
Usually rising prices indicate hobby health, not hobby death.
The only caveat is if the prices are being driven by investors, which seems less likely. If the case, eventually the bottom falls out, but the hobby won’t die.
Rising prices also has the benefit of bringing nice things out of hiding.
Rising prices might price one out of certain collecting interests, but there are always other areas.
I'm not crazy about generalizations. I think there are plenty of "opportunists" out there that are NOT classical collectors and doubt they love other than the number [of dollars] attached to particular coins. They are blowing up the top end of many markets and IMO are destroying many of them. And to top it of these are many times referred to as "serious" or "advanced" collectors. PLEASE!
They probably will not kill the hobby but are doing IMHO huge damage, not just by making the more expensive coins moreso but also hurting interest at the "base". One only has only to objectively witness the inverted age-pyramid demographics of who really are at coin shows and events, the decreased number of coin shops or stores, or take a look at the sales of yearly US mint and proof sets. So on and so on....
These phenomena are probably due to many factors but certainly removing higher end coins from the potential grasp of young or newer collectors likely dims their interests. I remember thinking at 9 or 10 years of age that I might be able to one day get a $50 slug or $20 assay piece and that with just a minimal summer job get some California territorial minors...
Well, just Love coins, period.
Hopefully they leave and find other venues. Let us true collectors enjoy our hobby in peace.
Coin collecting interests: Latin America
Sports: NFL & NHL
Or all this may be very real as well more and more people of say Mexican decent living a better financial life in say the USA and are now able to collect their cultural heritage coins. Who knows we will have to wait and see. I do not mean anything bad by this post by the way just maybe a possibility we are ignoring.
Coin collecting interests: Latin America
Sports: NFL & NHL
Or maybe people after been locked down for so long found new hobbies that they now continue enjoying that could also be a possibility.
Coin collecting interests: Latin America
Sports: NFL & NHL
There will be rotation in the world coin market as several areas have been neglected and others just flat out misunderstood and under-researched. New World coinage up through about the first quarter of the Twentieth century has done well with some pockets doing better than others. Condition rarities are just in a different classification than the US market. And what I mean by that is that there are several Morgans in the 66-67 range that some will suggest constitute a condition rarity... but are they in contrast to 8R Cap & Rays or even various European Crowns? The US market matured and TPG helped speed up the process. And as more 8R and other world coins are graded, I suspect the line will become even more clear in terms of the difference.
I mentioned on the US forum that our host has not graded a Mint State George I Crown. I made reference to a 1723 half crown graded MS63 by NGC that auctioned for $11K and suggested that if it were a US coin, you could likely put a zero behind it and still be 100K short.
For whatever reason, I am not convinced that there is much thought or analysis behind what motivates collectors or the end result of a coin's hammer price at auction. Seems to be more momentum and how buzz creates interest. Seems fear and greed play a greater role which is simply how most markets work.
Back to the question... high prices create opportunities. At some point, reality will set in and the coins that created buzz will be replaced by others yet to be promoted to develop a following that will be the buzz of tomorrow...
It will happen... it always has.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I suppose I left out a crtitical factor... perhaps the most important as to a coin's hammer price... and that would be instant gratification.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Problem with most world coins is the lack of books on the subject as a Mexican coin collector some are very hard to locate took me almost a full year to get most of them and a cost of 2000$ that is a lot of money to learn compared to say Canada, Great Britain or the USA.
I will never sell my books as I am sure most here will not either so for new collectors they will have an even harder time finding them for sale. Some are next to impossible to locate even if you have the funds.
At one point I wanted to collect Russian or German coins but just could not find any books so I just let it go and moved on. If Mexico did not have any books I would have done the same thing just to many risks for a new collector that has zero knowledge to jump into a country and collect with almost no compass to use as a guide.
Coin collecting interests: Latin America
Sports: NFL & NHL
You can buy a red book or a Canadian coin price guide for less that 50$ and get a lot of knowledge for a rookie collector that is impossible with Mexico. 50$ will almost get you no where knowledge wise. Sure there are a few good buys at that price but you have to locate the books and know what you are even looking for. How far can you go not even knowing the titles of the books you need to buy.
I paid almost 250$ (Canadian) for my 1st book and almost gave up before even going threw with the deal just scared me to spend such money on a whole new area that I was not even sure I would like or could even afford. Glad I did now but at 250$ (Canadian) for a book it is scary.
The authors are not making any new print runs for the most part and as mentioned good luck finding them all and piecing all the knowledge together took me 8-9 months and reading and reading every single day and wanting to quit some days but just kept going.
Coin collecting interests: Latin America
Sports: NFL & NHL
Geez I purchased my 1824 8 reales Upright Eagle from Mexico thinking I was getting some type of prototype coin that is how lost I was at first. Glad I got it still have it and will keep it because I now know what I own. It is like landing on a different planet and starting with nothing but guesses it is nerve wrecking.
I also had to purchase at least 10-12 books on the history of the countries I now collect again I knew almost nothing and even a year in I have a lot to learn about some nations still. All this is almost like doing a master's degree at university your alone and you get little help (except here on this forum) and you have to hope what you are learning is correct and not just your own interpretation.
Coin collecting interests: Latin America
Sports: NFL & NHL
It’s always the wives that collectors and dealers wait for, to sell the belongings of the departed. I can assure you, daughters are even more eager and efficient too…😉
myEbay
DPOTD 3
I have neither girlfriend/wife or children and that will remain so. I love been alone with my pet and my hobbies. When the time comes will sell and donate to my local animal shelter or have it set up like that in my will.
Coin collecting interests: Latin America
Sports: NFL & NHL
You sound like a farmer-
"It's not raining enough...now it's raining too much!"
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
There are lots of art and coins that remain inexpensive.
In a changing environment, the hard thing is that people may not change their coin preferences as quickly as those preference change prices.