@fathom said:
Amazon has reimbursed for defective product.
I don't think it is unreasonable for ebay to be more proactive vetting sellers of expensive merchandise.
Frankly I would like to see a tiered selling platform within ebay to distinguish newer sellers with low subpar feedback and longterm sellers with near perfect performance. Lumping everyone together and putting more responsibility on buyer due diligence is asking for trouble. Newer buyers are not familiar or aware of historic performance data and how to use or how to evaluate. 90% positive feedback sounds great but in reality sucks.
Amazon actually sells product. EBay doesn't. And do you know Amazon refunded using their money or the seller's? (Assuming the seller wasn't Amazon.)
It is a recent change of policy. Amazon money, for third party seller defective product.
If someone is scammed by a seller on the BST, should PCGS reimburse the buyer?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Caveat emptor.... Let the buyer beware. Ebay is an open auction forum...Not their responsibility to pay for the buyer's mistakes or the sellers deception/fraud. Cheers, RickO
I could be wrong but thought I have seen ebay vetting high end watches for sale…could they not do that for coins?
100% positive transactions with SurfinxHI, bigole, 1madman, collectorcoins, proofmorgan, Luke Marshall, silver pop, golden egg, point five zero,coin22lover, alohagary, blaircountycoin,joebb21
@MasonG said:
The guy who bought the counterfeits is the customer of the seller, not eBay. eBay provides a venue for buyer and sellers to get together and do business. And they offer far more protection to buyers than coin show promoters do, FWIW. @MasonG said:
@jmlanzaf said:
Had anyone asked PCGS to make good on the BST scams?
Well, that's different. Probably. Because reasons.
It's different in my eyes, because eBay is earning money from the scams and fraudsters.
Not a lawyer but thought it was against the law to profit from a criminal activity?
100% positive transactions with SurfinxHI, bigole, 1madman, collectorcoins, proofmorgan, Luke Marshall, silver pop, golden egg, point five zero,coin22lover, alohagary, blaircountycoin,joebb21
@MasonG said:
The guy who bought the counterfeits is the customer of the seller, not eBay. eBay provides a venue for buyer and sellers to get together and do business. And they offer far more protection to buyers than coin show promoters do, FWIW. @MasonG said:
@jmlanzaf said:
Had anyone asked PCGS to make good on the BST scams?
Well, that's different. Probably. Because reasons.
It's different in my eyes, because eBay is earning money from the scams and fraudsters.
Ian
So is the post office, the credit card company, the shipping supply company. That doesn't make them all liable indefinitely.
The liability is with the seller and the credit card company will cover the fraud. I'm not sure why you or anyone else feels that we need to expand the number of liable parties.
Actually ebay does limit the number of listings and dollar value a new member can list. It incrementally increases over time based on performance.
@fathom said:
Amazon has reimbursed for defective product.
I don't think it is unreasonable for ebay to be more proactive vetting sellers of expensive merchandise.
Frankly I would like to see a tiered selling platform within ebay to distinguish newer sellers with low subpar feedback and longterm sellers with near perfect performance. Lumping everyone together and putting more responsibility on buyer due diligence is asking for trouble. Newer buyers are not familiar or aware of historic performance data and how to use or how to evaluate. 90% positive feedback sounds great but in reality sucks.
100% positive transactions with SurfinxHI, bigole, 1madman, collectorcoins, proofmorgan, Luke Marshall, silver pop, golden egg, point five zero,coin22lover, alohagary, blaircountycoin,joebb21
@logger7 said:
Ebay is much better than Amazon for many sellers. They take less money and buyers and sellers can negotiate prices. Ebay remains one of the largest auction and general marketplaces for collectibles. They have gotten a lot better and I know many dealers who swear by it, there are just too many positives to discredit it.
And yet the overall quality on offerings on ebay is so much lower than it used to be a decade ago. Margins on selling coins is so tight and when fleapay takes most of the profit, few dealers of great coins can make it on fleapay without markups mostly making quality coins too expensive to sell. And then there is the corruption and rules against the dealers, both of which make it not a great place to sell quality numismatic items.............. Defend it all you want folks, but it is what it is............
I gave up selling on fleapay in 2011, too many stories like this, it is sad that corruption ruins a venue and fleapay won't do anything about it. What fleapay could do is take responsibility and reimburse those that were frauded, but hey as others say above, that hurts their bottom line. But it also means they lose lotsa revenue from sellers who gave up trusting fleapay, so..............
How very clever....fleapay...
Since 2011, I've sold $1.5 million on ebay.
Ebay is in no way liable anymore than the post office is liable for delivering the coin. The CC company will likely cover it. I'm not sure why anyone thinks that the marketplace bears responsibility here. People just aren't rational when eBay is involved.
I assume you also think PCGS is liable for anything said on this forum. I guess that means ebay can sue PCGS for what you said about them.
Love to see what you sell there - why don't you list your ebay seller link so we can see........
And as you tend to do, you are putting words into my mouth I never said with your 'I assume' sentence. You do that to alot of folks here it seems..........
Ebay's limits on newer sellers obviously do not stop fraud. My experience on limits was the max price and total values expanded exponentially with few transactions.
The less fraud on ebay the more confidence and better reputation follow. Why wouldn't the hobby/marketplace want more vetting? Or any market retail or wholesale?
I am positive ebay weighs the additional costs associated with more policing on a daily basis.
Amazon gets it, covering fraud or defective merch is an investment in the integrity of the platform.
@MasonG said:
The guy who bought the counterfeits is the customer of the seller, not eBay. eBay provides a venue for buyer and sellers to get together and do business. And they offer far more protection to buyers than coin show promoters do, FWIW. @MasonG said:
@jmlanzaf said:
Had anyone asked PCGS to make good on the BST scams?
Well, that's different. Probably. Because reasons.
It's different in my eyes, because eBay is earning money from the scams and fraudsters.
I gave up selling on fleapay in 2011, too many stories like this, it is sad that corruption ruins a venue and fleapay won't do anything about it. What fleapay could do is take responsibility and reimburse those that were frauded, but hey as others say above, that hurts their bottom line. But it also means they lose lotsa revenue from sellers who gave up trusting fleapay, so..............
How very clever....fleapay...
Since 2011, I've sold $1.5 million on ebay.
Ebay is in no way liable anymore than the post office is liable for delivering the coin. The CC company will likely cover it. I'm not sure why anyone thinks that the marketplace bears responsibility here. People just aren't rational when eBay is involved.
I assume you also think PCGS is liable for anything said on this forum. I guess that means ebay can sue PCGS for what you said about them.
Love to see what you sell there - why don't you list your ebay seller link so we can see........
And as you tend to do, you are putting words into my mouth I never said with your 'I assume' sentence. You do that to alot of folks here it seems..........
"EverythingValuable" or "inexpensivetrifles" on eBay
I stated that it was an assumption. eBay does not sell anything. eBay is the forum on which other people sell. Holding the host responsible for the actions of the hosted is akin to holding a mall owner responsible for the crime of a tenant, an apartment manager responsible for the crimes of a tenant, OR PCGS responsible for the actions of members of this forum.
That was not an attempt to put words into your mouth but point out the problem with your position when extend beyond eBay.
@logger7 said:
Ebay is much better than Amazon for many sellers. They take less money and buyers and sellers can negotiate prices. Ebay remains one of the largest auction and general marketplaces for collectibles. They have gotten a lot better and I know many dealers who swear by it, there are just too many positives to discredit it.
And yet the overall quality on offerings on ebay is so much lower than it used to be a decade ago. Margins on selling coins is so tight and when fleapay takes most of the profit, few dealers of great coins can make it on fleapay without markups mostly making quality coins too expensive to sell. And then there is the corruption and rules against the dealers, both of which make it not a great place to sell quality numismatic items.............. Defend it all you want folks, but it is what it is............
I will agree with you that the incremental cost model on eBay and Amazon has always been problematic for low margin items like coins. There are things like bullion that are virtually impossible to sell on eBay because the normal margin is 5%.
That said, eBay fees have come down significantly in the last year, especially for bullion. And there are items that can be sold profitably there.
The problem is less about eBay and more about the coin market itself. Market participants expect low bid/ask spreads. That makes auctions with 15-30% incremental margins and eBay with 5-9% incremental margins a challenge. Fixed cost structures like self-hosted websites, B&M establishments and coin shows are more able to accommodate the low margins. HOWEVER, those venues have significant fixed costs which require sufficient sales volume to support the cost structure. A newbie with limited inventory would lose money in the fixed cost models. So, eBay has its niche.
They've facilitated fraudsters since their inception and show no indications they're willing to rid the platform of bad players. Even after proof is given, they allow cheaters to continue to use their system. That, to me, is " facilitating". Oh, and I'm a seller. There are more liars and cheaters in the "buyer" ranks . Just saying.
@Herb_T said:
1. I would contact the FBI if this transaction crossed state lines. I may not get my money back, but I would sure get a piece of this person's hide. No doubt that this would be a felony prosecuted by a Federal Court. Ouch!
I would take eBay to my local small claims court. eBay would have to have hire a local attorney to represent them. They won't want to do that. Assuming the transaction was $5,000 or less. I had to do this once with a large company that was selling on eBay and their inhouse attorney told them to settle up. They didn't have an accurate listing. eBay no doubt has language to protect them from this, but they will have to spend money on an attorney to explain to the court why they are not the party to be sued.
I'll be filing suit against you and PCGS for offering legal advice without a license. I may not win, but it will force both of you to spend money defending yourself.
Well you can file, but realize I said what I would do, not advice, then I will file a suit for a false report that attempted to ruin my reputation on this forum. See you in court!
@TwoSides2aCoin said:
They've facilitated fraudsters since their inception and show no indications they're willing to rid the platform of bad players. Even after proof is given, they allow cheaters to continue to use their system.
From the first post, it appears the seller who was selling fakes was banned:
"We have a client right now who bought some fake PCGS holders on eBay, and when I asked him to go take screenshots, he saw that the seller has been banned from eBay over the past three months since he bought the two coins."
Is there any link(s) available that show the counterfeit PCGS holders and coins in question?
Was the "client" trying to put up for auction these coins?
How were the coins / slabs discovered?
Appreciate any more information.
Thanks
Wayne
@TwoSides2aCoin said:
They've facilitated fraudsters since their inception and show no indications they're willing to rid the platform of bad players. Even after proof is given, they allow cheaters to continue to use their system. That, to me, is " facilitating". Oh, and I'm a seller. There are more liars and cheaters in the "buyer" ranks . Just saying.
Interestingly, this thread started because of a BANNED user. So, I don't think you can say that they ALWAYS allow cheaters to continue once proof is given.
You will notice from threads here pointing out counterfeits that the users normally have feedback of under 10 and new accounts. Why do you think that is?
@Herb_T said:
1. I would contact the FBI if this transaction crossed state lines. I may not get my money back, but I would sure get a piece of this person's hide. No doubt that this would be a felony prosecuted by a Federal Court. Ouch!
I would take eBay to my local small claims court. eBay would have to have hire a local attorney to represent them. They won't want to do that. Assuming the transaction was $5,000 or less. I had to do this once with a large company that was selling on eBay and their inhouse attorney told them to settle up. They didn't have an accurate listing. eBay no doubt has language to protect them from this, but they will have to spend money on an attorney to explain to the court why they are not the party to be sued.
I'll be filing suit against you and PCGS for offering legal advice without a license. I may not win, but it will force both of you to spend money defending yourself.
Well you can file, but realize I said what I would do, not advice, then I will file a suit for a false report that attempted to ruin my reputation on this forum. See you in court!
LOL. Wasn't your advice to file a false report against eBay to force them to spend money on an attorney despite their "language to protect them from this". I see my point was made!
@Herb_T said:
1. I would contact the FBI if this transaction crossed state lines. I may not get my money back, but I would sure get a piece of this person's hide. No doubt that this would be a felony prosecuted by a Federal Court. Ouch!
I would take eBay to my local small claims court. eBay would have to have hire a local attorney to represent them. They won't want to do that. Assuming the transaction was $5,000 or less. I had to do this once with a large company that was selling on eBay and their inhouse attorney told them to settle up. They didn't have an accurate listing. eBay no doubt has language to protect them from this, but they will have to spend money on an attorney to explain to the court why they are not the party to be sued.
I'll be filing suit against you and PCGS for offering legal advice without a license. I may not win, but it will force both of you to spend money defending yourself.
Well you can file, but realize I said what I would do, not advice, then I will file a suit for a false report that attempted to ruin my reputation on this forum. See you in court!
LOL. Wasn't your advice to file a false report against eBay to force them to spend money on an attorney despite their "language to protect them from this". I see my point was made!
once again, I didnt say what to do, but what I would do....there is a difference. You are wrong again.
@Herb_T said:
1. I would contact the FBI if this transaction crossed state lines. I may not get my money back, but I would sure get a piece of this person's hide. No doubt that this would be a felony prosecuted by a Federal Court. Ouch!
I would take eBay to my local small claims court. eBay would have to have hire a local attorney to represent them. They won't want to do that. Assuming the transaction was $5,000 or less. I had to do this once with a large company that was selling on eBay and their inhouse attorney told them to settle up. They didn't have an accurate listing. eBay no doubt has language to protect them from this, but they will have to spend money on an attorney to explain to the court why they are not the party to be sued.
I'll be filing suit against you and PCGS for offering legal advice without a license. I may not win, but it will force both of you to spend money defending yourself.
Well you can file, but realize I said what I would do, not advice, then I will file a suit for a false report that attempted to ruin my reputation on this forum. See you in court!
LOL. Wasn't your advice to file a false report against eBay to force them to spend money on an attorney despite their "language to protect them from this". I see my point was made!
once again, I didnt say what to do, but what I would do....there is a difference. You are wrong again.
lmfao. Yeah, right. Pick that nit.
When you post in response to someone's question about what to do that "I would..." most people would interpret that as advice.
But, I will rephrase:
You are admitting that you would file a nuisance lawsuit against eBay simply to force them to spend money on an attorney. I see my point was made!
@Mgarmy said:
If they were in PCGS slabs that ups the pucker factor. Without pics tough to tell if this was an easy mistake that should have been caught or some expert level
Forgery.
apparently Ian's group discovered the fake slabs when they were sent to GC. Good job guys.
These were pretty good fake slabs. I have my theory how they were done. Not the usual Chinese fakes that we're all accustomed to.
@Mgarmy said:
If they were in PCGS slabs that ups the pucker factor. Without pics tough to tell if this was an easy mistake that should have been caught or some expert level
Forgery.
apparently Ian's group discovered the fake slabs when they were sent to GC. Good job guys.
These were pretty good fake slabs. I have my theory how they were done. Not the usual Chinese fakes that we're all accustomed to.
These were pretty good fake slabs. I have my theory how they were done. Not the usual Chinese fakes that we're all accustomed to.
Ian
How did their cert numbers compare to PCGS's cert verification? Might have been a big red flag from the git-go.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
@fathom said:
Amazon has reimbursed for defective product.
I don't think it is unreasonable for ebay to be more proactive vetting sellers of expensive merchandise.
Frankly I would like to see a tiered selling platform within ebay to distinguish newer sellers with low subpar feedback and longterm sellers with near perfect performance. Lumping everyone together and putting more responsibility on buyer due diligence is asking for trouble. Newer buyers are not familiar or aware of historic performance data and how to use or how to evaluate. 90% positive feedback sounds great but in reality sucks.
Amazon actually sells product. EBay doesn't. And do you know Amazon refunded using their money or the seller's? (Assuming the seller wasn't Amazon.)
It is a recent change of policy. Amazon money, for third party seller defective product.
Your understanding may be essentially correct from the buyers perspective, but not the full picture.
Amazon refunds the money, however, sellers must list Amazon as an additional insured on the sellers product liability policy. And Amazon will gladly serve as the middle-man to get the seller product liability insurance.
Claims of less than $1,000 Amazon just pays out. Claims above that and Amazon will get their money from the sellers insurance company.
@fathom said:
Amazon has reimbursed for defective product.
I don't think it is unreasonable for ebay to be more proactive vetting sellers of expensive merchandise.
Frankly I would like to see a tiered selling platform within ebay to distinguish newer sellers with low subpar feedback and longterm sellers with near perfect performance. Lumping everyone together and putting more responsibility on buyer due diligence is asking for trouble. Newer buyers are not familiar or aware of historic performance data and how to use or how to evaluate. 90% positive feedback sounds great but in reality sucks.
Amazon actually sells product. EBay doesn't. And do you know Amazon refunded using their money or the seller's? (Assuming the seller wasn't Amazon.)
It is a recent change of policy. Amazon money, for third party seller defective product.
Your understanding may be essentially correct from the buyers perspective, but not the full picture.
Amazon refunds the money, however, sellers must list Amazon as an additional insured on the sellers product liability policy. And Amazon will gladly serve as the middle-man to get the seller product liability insurance.
Claims of less than $1,000 Amazon just pays out. Claims above that and Amazon will get their money from the sellers insurance company.
Amazon also acts as payment processor, so they could just be paying the buyer with the seller's money. I've heard horror stories about Amazon holds on payments.
@TwoSides2aCoin said:
They've facilitated fraudsters since their inception and show no indications they're willing to rid the platform of bad players. Even after proof is given, they allow cheaters to continue to use their system.
From the first post, it appears the seller who was selling fakes was banned:
"We have a client right now who bought some fake PCGS holders on eBay, and when I asked him to go take screenshots, he saw that the seller has been banned from eBay over the past three months since he bought the two coins."
So your answer is : " yes, they should investigate banned sellers past record", right ? I agree. ( and be held accountable with banned seller)
@ianrussell said:
If eBay bans someone for selling fake coins, should they review previous items sold by that seller, so they can refund the buyers of other fakes?
Ian
I was not aware that eBay banned sellers for selling fake coins. Usually it is bad seller performance levels and unpaid selling fees. I do realize that eBay will periodically remove auctions they consider fraudulent. Sellers will also close their accounts and start new ones when they are involved with shady stuff to continue the grift.
@TwoSides2aCoin said:
They've facilitated fraudsters since their inception and show no indications they're willing to rid the platform of bad players. Even after proof is given, they allow cheaters to continue to use their system.
From the first post, it appears the seller who was selling fakes was banned:
"We have a client right now who bought some fake PCGS holders on eBay, and when I asked him to go take screenshots, he saw that the seller has been banned from eBay over the past three months since he bought the two coins."
So your answer is : " yes, they should investigate banned sellers past record", right ? I agree. ( and be held accountable with banned seller)
I didn't answer a question. You said that eBay shows no indications they're willing to rid the platform of bad players and I noted that the OP stated that the seller in question has been banned.
Glad to clear that up for you.
edited to add... As eBay banned the seller, it appears an investigation was done. Don't you think?
@fathom said:
Amazon has reimbursed for defective product.
I don't think it is unreasonable for ebay to be more proactive vetting sellers of expensive merchandise.
Frankly I would like to see a tiered selling platform within ebay to distinguish newer sellers with low subpar feedback and longterm sellers with near perfect performance. Lumping everyone together and putting more responsibility on buyer due diligence is asking for trouble. Newer buyers are not familiar or aware of historic performance data and how to use or how to evaluate. 90% positive feedback sounds great but in reality sucks.
Amazon actually sells product. EBay doesn't. And do you know Amazon refunded using their money or the seller's? (Assuming the seller wasn't Amazon.)
It is a recent change of policy. Amazon money, for third party seller defective product.
Your understanding may be essentially correct from the buyers perspective, but not the full picture.
Amazon refunds the money, however, sellers must list Amazon as an additional insured on the sellers product liability policy. And Amazon will gladly serve as the middle-man to get the seller product liability insurance.
Claims of less than $1,000 Amazon just pays out. Claims above that and Amazon will get their money from the sellers insurance company.
Amazon also acts as payment processor, so they could just be paying the buyer with the seller's money. I've heard horror stories about Amazon holds on payments.
That is quite possible. eBay is very simple and very pro-seller compared to Amazon in my experience as a seller on both platforms. You also have way more customers using Amazon for "renting" products vs eBay. I can only imagine the threads if dealers here sold on Amazon
@TwoSides2aCoin said:
They've facilitated fraudsters since their inception and show no indications they're willing to rid the platform of bad players. Even after proof is given, they allow cheaters to continue to use their system.
From the first post, it appears the seller who was selling fakes was banned:
"We have a client right now who bought some fake PCGS holders on eBay, and when I asked him to go take screenshots, he saw that the seller has been banned from eBay over the past three months since he bought the two coins."
So your answer is : " yes, they should investigate banned sellers past record", right ? I agree. ( and be held accountable with banned seller)
I didn't answer a question. You said that eBay shows no indications they're willing to rid the platform of bad players and I noted that the OP stated that the seller in question has been banned.
Glad to clear that up for you.
edited to add... As eBay banned the seller, it appears an investigation was done. Don't you think?
Inasmuch as ridding themselves of a bad player, yes. I think an internal investigation likely got that player removed. Yet the premise of the whole thread was : "should they (eBay) review previous transactions from said seller ?
@TwoSides2aCoin said:
Inasmuch as ridding themselves of a bad player, yes. I think an internal investigation likely got that player removed. Yet the premise of the whole thread was : "should they (eBay) review previous transactions from said seller ?
Does anybody know that eBay didn't do that?
edited to add... Suppose that eBay did go back and look at previous transactions and showed images to someone they contacted as an expert, who said the slabs looked good. Remember- unlike ianrussell, eBay and their expert never saw the slabs in hand and ianrussell said they were good fakes. Based on that investigation, they had no reason to contact ianrussel's customer regarding his eBay purchases. How would anyone know eBay did this?
Of course this is just a hypothetical scenario- nobody (but eBay) knows what they did or did not do. Maybe getting some facts before declaring a "guilty" verdict are in order?
That seems to be referring to fake trademarks. I'm not sure itv would apply to coins.
If it does, it is the end of amateur sellers on ebay. Lots of you folks are going to be out of business.
Right, Ian said in the OP they have "some fake PCGS holders" which I think would qualify as a trademark infringement. My understanding is the bill is intended to avoid unsafe products being sold, but I think any decent lawyer could turn it into a run of the mill trademark infringement suit if given the ammo. Time will tell.
"May the silver waves that bear you heavenward be filled with love’s whisperings"
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
Comments
It is a recent change of policy. Amazon money, for third party seller defective product.
Then that's on them.
If eBay bans someone for selling fake coins, should they review previous items sold by that seller?
Should they? Yes
Will they? Not a chance in hell
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
If someone is scammed by a seller on the BST, should PCGS reimburse the buyer?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Caveat emptor.... Let the buyer beware. Ebay is an open auction forum...Not their responsibility to pay for the buyer's mistakes or the sellers deception/fraud. Cheers, RickO
I could be wrong but thought I have seen ebay vetting high end watches for sale…could they not do that for coins?
100% positive transactions with SurfinxHI, bigole, 1madman, collectorcoins, proofmorgan, Luke Marshall, silver pop, golden egg, point five zero,coin22lover, alohagary, blaircountycoin,joebb21
It's different in my eyes, because eBay is earning money from the scams and fraudsters.
Owner/Founder GreatCollections
GreatCollections Coin Auctions - Certified Coin Auctions Every Week - Rare Coins & Coin Values
Not a lawyer but thought it was against the law to profit from a criminal activity?
100% positive transactions with SurfinxHI, bigole, 1madman, collectorcoins, proofmorgan, Luke Marshall, silver pop, golden egg, point five zero,coin22lover, alohagary, blaircountycoin,joebb21
So is the post office, the credit card company, the shipping supply company. That doesn't make them all liable indefinitely.
The liability is with the seller and the credit card company will cover the fraud. I'm not sure why you or anyone else feels that we need to expand the number of liable parties.
Actually ebay does limit the number of listings and dollar value a new member can list. It incrementally increases over time based on performance.
Not sure if this is still floating around or not https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pcmag.com/news/new-bill-would-make-amazon-ebay-liable-for-counterfeits?amp=true
100% positive transactions with SurfinxHI, bigole, 1madman, collectorcoins, proofmorgan, Luke Marshall, silver pop, golden egg, point five zero,coin22lover, alohagary, blaircountycoin,joebb21
And yet the overall quality on offerings on ebay is so much lower than it used to be a decade ago. Margins on selling coins is so tight and when fleapay takes most of the profit, few dealers of great coins can make it on fleapay without markups mostly making quality coins too expensive to sell. And then there is the corruption and rules against the dealers, both of which make it not a great place to sell quality numismatic items.............. Defend it all you want folks, but it is what it is............
Love to see what you sell there - why don't you list your ebay seller link so we can see........
And as you tend to do, you are putting words into my mouth I never said with your 'I assume' sentence. You do that to alot of folks here it seems..........
Ebay's limits on newer sellers obviously do not stop fraud. My experience on limits was the max price and total values expanded exponentially with few transactions.
The less fraud on ebay the more confidence and better reputation follow. Why wouldn't the hobby/marketplace want more vetting? Or any market retail or wholesale?
I am positive ebay weighs the additional costs associated with more policing on a daily basis.
Amazon gets it, covering fraud or defective merch is an investment in the integrity of the platform.
What jmlanzaf said.
"EverythingValuable" or "inexpensivetrifles" on eBay
I stated that it was an assumption. eBay does not sell anything. eBay is the forum on which other people sell. Holding the host responsible for the actions of the hosted is akin to holding a mall owner responsible for the crime of a tenant, an apartment manager responsible for the crimes of a tenant, OR PCGS responsible for the actions of members of this forum.
That was not an attempt to put words into your mouth but point out the problem with your position when extend beyond eBay.
I will agree with you that the incremental cost model on eBay and Amazon has always been problematic for low margin items like coins. There are things like bullion that are virtually impossible to sell on eBay because the normal margin is 5%.
That said, eBay fees have come down significantly in the last year, especially for bullion. And there are items that can be sold profitably there.
The problem is less about eBay and more about the coin market itself. Market participants expect low bid/ask spreads. That makes auctions with 15-30% incremental margins and eBay with 5-9% incremental margins a challenge. Fixed cost structures like self-hosted websites, B&M establishments and coin shows are more able to accommodate the low margins. HOWEVER, those venues have significant fixed costs which require sufficient sales volume to support the cost structure. A newbie with limited inventory would lose money in the fixed cost models. So, eBay has its niche.
Although plenty of people are able to do business (buying and selling) there easily enough, eBay is clearly not for everybody.
They've facilitated fraudsters since their inception and show no indications they're willing to rid the platform of bad players. Even after proof is given, they allow cheaters to continue to use their system. That, to me, is " facilitating". Oh, and I'm a seller. There are more liars and cheaters in the "buyer" ranks . Just saying.
Well you can file, but realize I said what I would do, not advice, then I will file a suit for a false report that attempted to ruin my reputation on this forum. See you in court!
From the first post, it appears the seller who was selling fakes was banned:
"We have a client right now who bought some fake PCGS holders on eBay, and when I asked him to go take screenshots, he saw that the seller has been banned from eBay over the past three months since he bought the two coins."
Is there any link(s) available that show the counterfeit PCGS holders and coins in question?
Was the "client" trying to put up for auction these coins?
How were the coins / slabs discovered?
Appreciate any more information.
Thanks
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
Interestingly, this thread started because of a BANNED user. So, I don't think you can say that they ALWAYS allow cheaters to continue once proof is given.
You will notice from threads here pointing out counterfeits that the users normally have feedback of under 10 and new accounts. Why do you think that is?
LOL. Wasn't your advice to file a false report against eBay to force them to spend money on an attorney despite their "language to protect them from this". I see my point was made!
once again, I didnt say what to do, but what I would do....there is a difference. You are wrong again.
lmfao. Yeah, right. Pick that nit.
When you post in response to someone's question about what to do that "I would..." most people would interpret that as advice.
But, I will rephrase:
You are admitting that you would file a nuisance lawsuit against eBay simply to force them to spend money on an attorney. I see my point was made!
These were pretty good fake slabs. I have my theory how they were done. Not the usual Chinese fakes that we're all accustomed to.
Owner/Founder GreatCollections
GreatCollections Coin Auctions - Certified Coin Auctions Every Week - Rare Coins & Coin Values
How long ago did he buy the coins???
How did their cert numbers compare to PCGS's cert verification? Might have been a big red flag from the git-go.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Your understanding may be essentially correct from the buyers perspective, but not the full picture.
Amazon refunds the money, however, sellers must list Amazon as an additional insured on the sellers product liability policy. And Amazon will gladly serve as the middle-man to get the seller product liability insurance.
Claims of less than $1,000 Amazon just pays out. Claims above that and Amazon will get their money from the sellers insurance company.
Amazon also acts as payment processor, so they could just be paying the buyer with the seller's money. I've heard horror stories about Amazon holds on payments.
So your answer is : " yes, they should investigate banned sellers past record", right ? I agree. ( and be held accountable with banned seller)
.... because a crime is always a crime !
I was not aware that eBay banned sellers for selling fake coins. Usually it is bad seller performance levels and unpaid selling fees. I do realize that eBay will periodically remove auctions they consider fraudulent. Sellers will also close their accounts and start new ones when they are involved with shady stuff to continue the grift.
I didn't answer a question. You said that eBay shows no indications they're willing to rid the platform of bad players and I noted that the OP stated that the seller in question has been banned.
Glad to clear that up for you.
edited to add... As eBay banned the seller, it appears an investigation was done. Don't you think?
That is quite possible. eBay is very simple and very pro-seller compared to Amazon in my experience as a seller on both platforms. You also have way more customers using Amazon for "renting" products vs eBay. I can only imagine the threads if dealers here sold on Amazon
Inasmuch as ridding themselves of a bad player, yes. I think an internal investigation likely got that player removed. Yet the premise of the whole thread was : "should they (eBay) review previous transactions from said seller ?
Does anybody know that eBay didn't do that?
edited to add... Suppose that eBay did go back and look at previous transactions and showed images to someone they contacted as an expert, who said the slabs looked good. Remember- unlike ianrussell, eBay and their expert never saw the slabs in hand and ianrussell said they were good fakes. Based on that investigation, they had no reason to contact ianrussel's customer regarding his eBay purchases. How would anyone know eBay did this?
Of course this is just a hypothetical scenario- nobody (but eBay) knows what they did or did not do. Maybe getting some facts before declaring a "guilty" verdict are in order?
https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/6058/text
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
That seems to be referring to fake trademarks. I'm not sure itv would apply to coins.
If it does, it is the end of amateur sellers on ebay. Lots of you folks are going to be out of business.
Right, Ian said in the OP they have "some fake PCGS holders" which I think would qualify as a trademark infringement. My understanding is the bill is intended to avoid unsafe products being sold, but I think any decent lawyer could turn it into a run of the mill trademark infringement suit if given the ammo. Time will tell.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown