If eBay bans someone for selling fake coins, should they review previous items sold by that seller?

ianrussell

If eBay bans someone for selling fake coins, should they review previous items sold by that seller, so they can refund the buyers of other fakes?

We have a client right now who bought some fake PCGS holders on eBay, and when I asked him to go take screenshots, he saw that the seller has been banned from eBay over the past three months since he bought the two coins.

Of course, eBay didn't reach out to our client to say "hey bob, we found a seller you spent thousands of dollars with that was selling suspect material, we'd like you to send them to PCGS to be reviewed" etc.

Worst still, eBay refused to refund him now, because it's been 90 days.

• Ian

bearcave

Yes. Ebay should refund him. But he'll probably get away with it.

ms71

To be expected, there's nothing ($$) in it for them, so it's not going to happen.

cheezhed

Refund at the least. SNAD

BryceM

Of course they should but asking them to lift a finger to do it probably unrealistic. Running all that down doesn’t generate revenue, at least not for the next quarterly report.

coinpalice

they can't even refund state tax money that was paid for a purchase for a state with no taxes, why would they do that?

jdimmick

its unfortunate, but ebay wont refund it, most likely they would have no way to get the funds back from the seller anyway, as after a week, most likely transferred and gone

amwldcoin

So what makes you say it is ebay's responsibility. They do give buyers ample time to verify their purchases. If gov steps in and starts trying to make ebay stand behind everything that sold on their site you can say goodbye to the ability to sell coins and many other items which are subject to being counterfeited on ebay.

Of course on the other side of the fence you would probably be quite happy with that!

Peyroguy

Let me say, I just had an issue with a buyer, basically I sold a 2021 pf70 $50 eagle for 4k. I sent the OGP with it. The buyer claimed I didn't send the right OGP, I sent another, they say they didn't receive it, says delivered
EBay refused to believe me when I said they were scamming, made me give a refund, but the buyer hasn't sent back the right coin. Now they are fighting me instead of the buyer. EBay is a joke anymore, plus their is a lot of bad ppl on ebay. EBay will never get your back if it means they have to loose money

Dave99B

IMO, eBay is simply a platform which connects a buyer and a seller. It’s the buyers responsibility to examine the item, and dispute the transaction if it’s not satisfactory. After 90 days, I don’t think eBay has any responsibility to refund the buyer.

On the other hand, I would like to see eBay notify other buyers who purchased from the banned seller. They have the information to do so. Will they? Probably not.

Dave

ms71

Ebay, with regard to fairly expensive coins, is every seller's nightmare waiting to happen.

jesbroken

It would appear to me that if ebay allows a couterfeit item to be sold which may not be preventable, upon learning of the incident, as a reputable agency, should be willing to make their customer whole, whether buyer or seller. But then, that's in a better world.
Jim

MasonG

@jesbroken said:
It would appear to me that if ebay allows a couterfeit item to be sold which may not be preventable, upon learning of the incident, as a reputable agency, should be willing to make their customer whole, whether buyer or seller.

If somebody buys a counterfeit from a seller at a coin show, should the show promoter be expected to make their customer whole?

jesbroken

@MasonG said:

@jesbroken said:
It would appear to me that if ebay allows a couterfeit item to be sold which may not be preventable, upon learning of the incident, as a reputable agency, should be willing to make their customer whole, whether buyer or seller.

If somebody buys a counterfeit from a seller at a coin show, should the show promoter be expected to make their customer whole?

Moreso, if the buyer had no way of previewing the purchase relying on the seller and the agency as do most users of the ebay system. The problem as I see it is one of respectability and maintaining that respectability. Then that is just my opinion.
Jim

MasonG

@jesbroken said:
Moreso, if the buyer had no way of previewing the purchase relying on the seller and the agency as do most users of the ebay system.

Buyers have the chance to review (and return, in the event they are not as described) their eBay purchases upon receipt.

jesbroken

@MasonG said:

@jesbroken said:
Moreso, if the buyer had no way of previewing the purchase relying on the seller and the agency as do most users of the ebay system.

Buyers have the chance to review (and return, in the event they are not as described) their eBay purchases upon receipt.

As the OP made clear, Ebay was now in possession of evidence the buyer had purchased items from a known seller of counterfeit coins whom they had already banned for further sales. Should this very buyer provide evidence that their purchased items were indeed counterfeit also, then I would FEEL, not legally demand, ebay should protect their image and make their customer whole. Again, this is just my opinion and as to a coin shows liability, they only provide a location for a table fee, not a continuing fee for each and every sale, tax, shipping and such.
Jim

MasonG

The guy who bought the counterfeits is the customer of the seller, not eBay. eBay provides a venue for buyer and sellers to get together and do business. And they offer far more protection to buyers than coin show promoters do, FWIW.

johnny9434

@coinpalice said:
they can't even refund state tax money that was paid for a purchase for a state with no taxes, why would they do that?

What a shame. Talk about fraud as well......

MsMorrisine

Yes refund

We try to report live auctions and closed auctions

In the past sometimes they’d take closed auctions down but I don’t think they do that anymore

hummingbird_coins

Another reason to buy from GreatCollections

derryb

do not expect ebay to know what a counterfeit coin looks like. A buyer should know or he should not be buying.

coinsarefun

Sorry if it’s been posted already but if he paid through PayPal he might be covered.
Or, using a cc through PayPal then cc company should cover

jmlanzaf

@ianrussell said:
If eBay bans someone for selling fake coins, should they review previous items sold by that seller, so they can refund the buyers of other fakes?

We have a client right now who bought some fake PCGS holders on eBay, and when I asked him to go take screenshots, he saw that the seller has been banned from eBay over the past three months since he bought the two coins.

Of course, eBay didn't reach out to our client to say "hey bob, we found a seller you spent thousands of dollars with that was selling suspect material, we'd like you to send them to PCGS to be reviewed" etc.

Worst still, eBay refused to refund him now, because it's been 90 days.

• Ian

@MasonG said:
The guy who bought the counterfeits is the customer of the seller, not eBay. eBay provides a venue for buyer and sellers to get together and do business. And they offer far more protection to buyers than coin show promoters do, FWIW.

@BryceM said:
Of course they should but asking them to lift a finger to do it probably unrealistic. Running all that down doesn’t generate revenue, at least not for the next quarterly report.

As @MasonG has indicated, eBay is the forum not the seller. The buyer can file a charge back against the seller and his credit card will cover him.

jmlanzaf

@jesbroken said:

@MasonG said:

@jesbroken said:
Moreso, if the buyer had no way of previewing the purchase relying on the seller and the agency as do most users of the ebay system.

Buyers have the chance to review (and return, in the event they are not as described) their eBay purchases upon receipt.

As the OP made clear, Ebay was now in possession of evidence the buyer had purchased items from a known seller of counterfeit coins whom they had already banned for further sales. Should this very buyer provide evidence that their purchased items were indeed counterfeit also, then I would FEEL, not legally demand, ebay should protect their image and make their customer whole. Again, this is just my opinion and as to a coin shows liability, they only provide a location for a table fee, not a continuing fee for each and every sale, tax, shipping and such.
Jim

That's a tiny bit you're picking. The show promoters charge a flat rate rather than an incremental rate so they are different?

I suppose if you are taken advantage of by a scam phone call, you would hold your carrier responsible.

This opens up a lot of possibilities. If your home is burglarized, you can sue the state for supplying the roads that the burglar traveled over.

Had anyone asked PCGS to make good on the BST scams?

MasonG

@jmlanzaf said:
Had anyone asked PCGS to make good on the BST scams?

Well, that's different. Probably. Because reasons.

jmlanzaf

Ebay provides 90 days to sort it out. Ironically, sellers on this forum complain about the 90 day SNAD as being too generous. Now, it's too short.

How about the buyer taking responsibility himself? He had 90 days to sort it out. Sometimes, you have to own your own mistakes.

Mgarmy

If they were in PCGS slabs that ups the pucker factor. Without pics tough to tell if this was an easy mistake that should have been caught or some expert level
Forgery.

jt88

@ianrussell said:
If eBay bans someone for selling fake coins, should they review previous items sold by that seller, so they can refund the buyers of other fakes?

We have a client right now who bought some fake PCGS holders on eBay, and when I asked him to go take screenshots, he saw that the seller has been banned from eBay over the past three months since he bought the two coins.

Of course, eBay didn't reach out to our client to say "hey bob, we found a seller you spent thousands of dollars with that was selling suspect material, we'd like you to send them to PCGS to be reviewed" etc.

Worst still, eBay refused to refund him now, because it's been 90 days.

• Ian

if your client bought with credit then he can file a claim with his card. He should get the money back.

jesbroken

It never ceases to amaze me how the ebay supporters love to deflect on any situation with the addition of another that has no bearing. I originally answered the OP in regards of whether ebay should inform past buyers of their seller that was banned for selling counterfeit coins, not reinburse the buyer. Then all these suppositions occurred, what if. Yes, what if ebay had informed the buyer immediately upon banning the seller, then perhaps it would have only been 1 month and all would not have mattered. What if you received a coin you collect in a pcgs holder, do you immediately take it and investigate whether it is a counterfeit or not. Do you run to a specialist to find if that is so, or do you store it in your collector's vault. And if you resold it as original and it wasn't. There is no end to deflecting as you no longer have to answer the OP's post of whether or not in your OPINION ebay should inform their customers that a fox had been in the henhouse. Good day, gents.
Rave on.
Jim

jmlanzaf

@jesbroken said:
It never ceases to amaze me how the ebay supporters love to deflect on any situation with the addition of another that has no bearing. I originally answered the OP in regards of whether ebay should inform past buyers of their seller that was banned for selling counterfeit coins, not reinburse the buyer. Then all these suppositions occurred, what if. Yes, what if ebay had informed the buyer immediately upon banning the seller, then perhaps it would have only been 1 month and all would not have mattered. What if you received a coin you collect in a pcgs holder, do you immediately take it and investigate whether it is a counterfeit or not. Do you run to a specialist to find if that is so, or do you store it in your collector's vault. And if you resold it as original and it wasn't. There is no end to deflecting as you no longer have to answer the OP's post of whether or not in your OPINION ebay should inform their customers that a fox had been in the henhouse. Good day, gents.
Rave on.
Jim

It's not a deflection. You are assuming a lot of unknowns. Was everything sold by the seller counterfeit? Was the seller banned for the counterfeits or some other infraction? What are the ebay terms of service?

The fact is that ebay will disclose very little information about either buyers or sellers. This is also true of CC companies and other similar parties. They don't want to open Pandora's box and risk creating false impressions.

Years ago, I had a customer problem that ended up in a credit card dispute. I tried to get more information about the buyer's pattern of behavior. Neither ebay, paypal or the credit card company would even tell me if the customer had ever filed another similar complaint much less the outcome of any prior activity. The buyer was claiming "unauthorized use of his account". Neither of the 3 entities would even tell me what the specific reason for the unauthorized use was. They wouldn't tell me if he had been hacked etc.

It's just standard practice for the middle people.

jdimmick

""Ebay, with regard to fairly expensive coins, is every seller's nightmare waiting to happen""

thats why i quit selling this type of stuff there last year and use GC

MasonG

@jmlanzaf said:
Was the seller banned for the counterfeits or some other infraction?

I wondered about this, too. I had the same experience as you (buyer claimed unauthorized use of his cc account) and I was unable to get the first bit of information from anybody about the claim aside from what I already knew (buyer's contact info) from having sold the item.

logger7

It's clearly fraud. The buyer should take any and all actions to achieve whatever justice is possible at this point. File with his/her state AG/consumer affairs department. Ascertain who the seller actually was so a rigorous search of that seller will be more likely in the future as they try to find new victims under yet another alias. Chargebacks work but should only be used as a last resort in the case of fraud or the buyer may get blocked by ebay.

jmlanzaf

@logger7 said:
It's clearly fraud. The buyer should take any and all actions to achieve whatever justice is possible at this point. File with his/her state AG/consumer affairs department. Ascertain who the seller actually was so a rigorous search of that seller will be more likely in the future as they try to find new victims under yet another alias. Chargebacks work but should only be used as a last resort in the case of fraud or the buyer may get blocked by ebay.

Really hard to do anything unless the seller is in the same state. Chargebacks work best and eBay won't even get involved.

spacehayduke

One word - FLEAPAY

I gave up selling on fleapay in 2011, too many stories like this, it is sad that corruption ruins a venue and fleapay won't do anything about it. What fleapay could do is take responsibility and reimburse those that were frauded, but hey as others say above, that hurts their bottom line. But it also means they lose lotsa revenue from sellers who gave up trusting fleapay, so..............

Herb_T

1. I would contact the FBI if this transaction crossed state lines. I may not get my money back, but I would sure get a piece of this person's hide. No doubt that this would be a felony prosecuted by a Federal Court. Ouch!

2. I would take eBay to my local small claims court. eBay would have to have hire a local attorney to represent them. They won't want to do that. Assuming the transaction was $5,000 or less. I had to do this once with a large company that was selling on eBay and their inhouse attorney told them to settle up. They didn't have an accurate listing. eBay no doubt has language to protect them from this, but they will have to spend money on an attorney to explain to the court why they are not the party to be sued.

logger7

Ebay is much better than Amazon for many sellers. They take less money and buyers and sellers can negotiate prices. Ebay remains one of the largest auction and general marketplaces for collectibles. They have gotten a lot better and I know many dealers who swear by it, there are just too many positives to discredit it.

jmlanzaf

@spacehayduke said:
One word - FLEAPAY

I gave up selling on fleapay in 2011, too many stories like this, it is sad that corruption ruins a venue and fleapay won't do anything about it. What fleapay could do is take responsibility and reimburse those that were frauded, but hey as others say above, that hurts their bottom line. But it also means they lose lotsa revenue from sellers who gave up trusting fleapay, so..............

How very clever....fleapay...

Since 2011, I've sold $1.5 million on ebay.

Ebay is in no way liable anymore than the post office is liable for delivering the coin. The CC company will likely cover it. I'm not sure why anyone thinks that the marketplace bears responsibility here. People just aren't rational when eBay is involved.

I assume you also think PCGS is liable for anything said on this forum. I guess that means ebay can sue PCGS for what you said about them.

jmlanzaf

@Herb_T said:
1. I would contact the FBI if this transaction crossed state lines. I may not get my money back, but I would sure get a piece of this person's hide. No doubt that this would be a felony prosecuted by a Federal Court. Ouch!

2. I would take eBay to my local small claims court. eBay would have to have hire a local attorney to represent them. They won't want to do that. Assuming the transaction was $5,000 or less. I had to do this once with a large company that was selling on eBay and their inhouse attorney told them to settle up. They didn't have an accurate listing. eBay no doubt has language to protect them from this, but they will have to spend money on an attorney to explain to the court why they are not the party to be sued.

I'll be filing suit against you and PCGS for offering legal advice without a license. I may not win, but it will force both of you to spend money defending yourself.

MasonG

@jmlanzaf said:
People just aren't rational when eBay is involved.

Forget it, Jake- it's eBay.

Flatwoods

Should but won't.
Doesn't help the bottom line.

jmlanzaf

@MasonG said:

@jmlanzaf said:
People just aren't rational when eBay is involved.

Forget it, Jake- it's eBay.

Yeah. I'll just never learn...

CopperWire

so much counterfeit stuff on eBay, caveat emptor

jmlanzaf

@MasonG said:

@jmlanzaf said:
People just aren't rational when eBay is involved.

Forget it, Jake- it's eBay.

It is funny, though. People want ebay to be cheaper to use and then expect ebay to provide even more guarantees.

fathom

Amazon has reimbursed for defective product.

I don't think it is unreasonable for ebay to be more proactive vetting sellers of expensive merchandise.

Frankly I would like to see a tiered selling platform within ebay to distinguish newer sellers with low subpar feedback and longterm sellers with near perfect performance. Lumping everyone together and putting more responsibility on buyer due diligence is asking for trouble. Newer buyers are not familiar or aware of historic performance data and how to use or how to evaluate. 90% positive feedback sounds great but in reality sucks.

derryb

@Mgarmy said:
If they were in PCGS slabs that ups the pucker factor. Without pics tough to tell if this was an easy mistake that should have been caught or some expert level
Forgery.

apparently Ian's group discovered the fake slabs when they were sent to GC. Good job guys.

derryb

@jmlanzaf said:

I'll be filing suit against you and PCGS for offering legal advice without a license. I may not win, but it will force both of you to spend money defending yourself.

it's not illegal to offer legal advice without a license. I do it all the time.

I also give medical advice but refuse to perform surgery.

derryb

@fathom said:
Amazon has reimbursed for defective product.

I don't think it is unreasonable for ebay to be more proactive vetting sellers of expensive merchandise.

Frankly I would like to see a tiered selling platform within ebay to distinguish newer sellers with low subpar feedback and longterm sellers with near perfect performance. Lumping everyone together and putting more responsibility on buyer due diligence is asking for trouble. Newer buyers are not familiar or aware of historic performance data and how to use or how to evaluate. 90% positive feedback sounds great but in reality sucks.

Isn't this the purpose of providing a seller's ebay join date, and his feedback?

MedalCollector

How do you find out the reason a seller is “banned”?

jmlanzaf

@fathom said:
Amazon has reimbursed for defective product.

I don't think it is unreasonable for ebay to be more proactive vetting sellers of expensive merchandise.

Frankly I would like to see a tiered selling platform within ebay to distinguish newer sellers with low subpar feedback and longterm sellers with near perfect performance. Lumping everyone together and putting more responsibility on buyer due diligence is asking for trouble. Newer buyers are not familiar or aware of historic performance data and how to use or how to evaluate. 90% positive feedback sounds great but in reality sucks.

Amazon actually sells product. EBay doesn't. And do you know Amazon refunded using their money or the seller's? (Assuming the seller wasn't Amazon.)

fathom

New buyers may not know the importance of those designations.