Proof-like business strike coins, does it really matter what they grade?
leothelyon
Posts: 8,473 ✭✭✭✭✭
A single contact mark, nick or scratch on a coin with proof-like surfaces/fields can be 10 times more obvious and can so easily drop/sink a coin's grade. But yet, a MS64 coin, for example, can pack a greater deal of eye appeal over a regular MS64 coin that is not proof-like. I'm asking a very somewhat illusive question....it's like, a coin that grades MS63 because of a few extra marks or a weak strike but yet, has very proof-like fields that gives the coin some unusually attractive eye appeal just leaves me thinking, what am I to do with such coins. Should I collect them? It's not like there are an abundance/rolls of proof-like coins to get picky with, 'cause there's not. I imagine collectors of proof-like Morgan dollars have a similar problem. And trying to photograph those little mirrors, I don't even want to go there.
Oh yeah, post those PL coins!
Leo 
Comments
Yes. MS61 PL can be butt ugly
Yeah..... but it matters more to some than others.
I used to just spend the uglier PL's. I appreciate them more every year. None of the moderns are really common and tend to exist in the dozens or hundreds and not in the thousands.
I guess they are an acquired taste.
67’pl turn out to be high grades except the Kennedy there’s higher grades available 🤓🙀
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
Depends on if your buying or selling.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Perhaps shy if the greatest examples of any given type, all coins have some give and take in terms of eye appeal. A gain in one area may necessitate a decline in another for a fixed budget. PL is one of those things. I’ll be honest, though, I’m not a big fan of PL Morgans, at least for the price and appeal. I’d rather a cleaner coin with strong frost even if the fields aren’t fully mirrored. Alternatively, a DMPL with really deep mirrors and cameo frost may be appealing enough that I can overlook more visible chatter. And of course, two coins can grade the same and I can love one and hate the other. Hypotheticals are hard because the answer is always that it depends.
I had this one graded in August 2019 which I believe was before PCGS started to recognize these moderns that are PL. It’s almost cameo anyway I sold it to one of our members, whoops.
I would want that dime.
Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM
There’s a fairly big difference in price between a 66pl penny and dime and the 67pl
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
I would want that dime.> @Jzyskowski1 said:
I am sure there is probably a larger price difference between a non proof like MS 66 coin and an MS66PL coin. Or any other grade for that matter.
Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM
The condition existed long before official designation was granted by TPG's. Once that occurred, prices increased accordingly. Another marketing ploy. JMO Cheers, RickO
I have 3/4 of the entire Morgan set all in 64PL...for consistency...including all the GSA's, except one.
I appreciate them more and more every year over my primary "straight MS" set...which now seems a little flat by comparison.
I just wish I had started collecting them first...I'm sure they were dirt cheap in the 80s/90s!
@ilikemonsters Check with Gary. Looks like he's been inactive since 2019 though.
Yes! If anything grade matters more with PL coins. I would prefer a regular 61 over a PL 61, but would prefer a PL 66 over a regular 66. As you mentioned, the finish highlights contact marks more than usual.
Aercus Numismatics - Certified coins for sale
Yes
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Wow! Very pretty dime.
I assume it came from a mint set.
Believe pcgs started 2019 PL with the rocket ship sets and that was first quarter of 2019
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
A proof-like 2003 biz strike Lincoln. Graded MS68RD. Great mirrors on this.
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
PLs are my main collecting focus! There are large premiums for these non-Morgan PLs and they are rather scarce to come across.
A few of my favorites:
Yes, and actually I got to thinking about it and realized that weren't all 2005 mint sets satin finish? The coin is featured top of Coin facts as MS and not SP. Then if you look at the satin finish's in Coin facts you will see another one similar to this one.
Here is the mint set it came from along with another I own. I started thinking about because maybe there was another coin in that pack worth pursuing.
@WingedLiberty1957 Very nice looking Lincoln cent. It looks like they didn't give it the PL designation thou.
Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM
Never enough of a fan of them. Plus tough win them at my bid. But it did appear to me contact marks on PL coins possibly can stand out more. But there are those who certainly will bid them up / demand can be strong. These are beautiful lustrous coins, just consider the contact marks a souvenir of their history for being in bags for a long time.
Contact marks? Proof-like surfaces can sometimes be very mirror-like on a coin. Whatever light source used, I'd end up either temporarily blind or risk a migraine from staring at the light that's reflecting back into my eyes while I look for marks to come up with a grade.
I use a headlamp with piece of small paper taped to the lens to block out the bulb's filament. To dim the light even further, I'll pair a dead battery with a good one. Too much light tends to wipe out any proof-likeness to a coin.
I would have posted sooner but chit happens.
Here's a new acquisition, a proof-like 1942-D Jefferson nickel. I imagine everyone already has one of these. Many great coins posted, keep them coming.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
@leothelyon Very nice
Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM
I know this is the US Coin Forum, but I thought you guys might be interested in a couple of data point. regarding non-US prooflike business strikes.
I purchased earlier this year a prooflike 1900 British six pence (PCGS MS64 PL) for almost exactly what a similar non-prooflike coin would cost ($100). (You can see a photo of this specific coin if you go to the Pop Reports for Victoria 6d and click on the PCGS number for the 1900 PL 6d.) The Pop Report for Victoria six pences shows that PCGS has graded only 2 as prooflike (mine and an 1883), while our hosts have graded almost 1300 Victoria six pences in all. The differential may be partly due to PCGS relatively recent decision to begin designating business strike prooflikes for non-US coins, or to there just being very few of them in existence.
PCGS has also graded 4 German Empire marks as PL: 1908-D (64), 1909-D (63) and two 1914-E (65 and 66), with a little under 2400 graded in all.
We shall see if the numbers of foreign PL mount, but I felt fortunate in being able to buy the 1900 6d as reasonably priced as it was.
I think the lack of interest for PL coins is due to, well, the lack of their availability. Why hunt for something that's scarcely out there? One can see this problem in just about every registry set......oh wait.....I was thinking about poor strikes! lol I use to walk booth/table and foe at a coin show asking every dealer, "do you have any proof-like coins?' This proved to be a very exhausting/disappointing endeavor. Such coins usually appear out of no-where when/once they catch your eye...and that's by a slim chance. But rather, they're usually a, 'just to a happen to come along' kind of thing, popping up here and there, once in a huge moon. Like catching a glimpse of a falling star in the corner of your eye, type of collectible.
I lost track of this thread due to the passing of a couple of dear ones this past few months. But I'm still around.
What was the question again? Post your PL BSs! Some grand examples already posted!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
So, is it the opinion of everyone that an AU-58 [for example] cannot and will not be graded as a PL?
BHNC #203
Yes
https://www.pcgs.com/news/differences-between-proof-and-prooflike-coins
NGC grades some AU PL's. I did not try to locate their criteria or down to what grade. Here is their Morgan pop with AU PL.
https://www.ngccoin.com/census/united-states/dollars/49/
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
Thank you, interesting.
BHNC #203
Thank you.
I guess I'd have to hope for MS-60 or better.
BHNC #203
I consider this piece to have semi PL fields. With Jefferson nickels, don't expect the PL fields to be as intense as seen on Morgan dollars. The level of prooflikeness is different on 75% copper-25% nickel coins verses 90% silver coins. About semi PL examples will carry a higher amount of eye appeal over coins that are lustrous. I search for them, find them and give them a level of desirability and place them in my collection. That's all that matters to me. There are many collectors who do the same. They can appreciate a coin when they come across such coins. It's that simple. Don't hold your breathe thinking/waaiting for others to come around to your way of thinking/how to/you collect coins. You'll eventually get too old to give a hoot about what others think. Similar to waiting for truely early die state struck coins to get recognized by coin grading companies, not going to happen. Not even with this new CAC corp. It's all about what the collector thinks and God knows, that has varied! lol
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Yes - in lower grades can be unattractive especially if high bagmarks. Would not buy any less than MS 64.
I "think" my coin is PL, if not it's very well struck.
Crap... I just posted this coin in another thread!
Difficult to capture, but this one has noticeable PL qualities, especially the reverse.
TrueView
My images
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
I don’t understand whatever association you’re trying to make. A coin’s strike isn’t determined by whether it’s PL and vice versa.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I have the nickel from the Explore and Discover set. 50000 were authorized, but only about 35000 were actually sold. The coins look more like proof coins than mint set coins, similar to the 1965 to 1967 SMS sets. But I can see it's a BS coin with full PL surfaces.
I did a little more research on this set which is still for sale at the US Mint. And found the following very interesting notes therein;
"Set has coins with both proof and uncirculated finishes—the highest quality coins produced by the Mint for collectors"
This tells me, PL business strikes are the highest quality coin to collect,
"The set also includes a Mighty Minter magnifying glass to help kids see the distinctive design elements on each coin.
I can think of a few Registry set contestants who could use this Mighty Minter magnifying glass so maybe, they can check their coins to see if they're missing any of those distinctive design elements!
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I really thought this coin would PL based on these pics that I took.
PCGS says they will not give the PL designation with coins that are cloudy or something to that effect. This one has a purple haze in the right field (so much for toning) and overall appears yellow in the TV.
Gorgeous 1820!
Hey Leo
Their still available 😁
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
I'm half tempted to buy a set. Anyone know what the mag power is on the Mighty Minter magnifying glass?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Your post intrigued me because you mentioned Morgan Dollars and I am getting ready to send a group of Morgan Dollars to GC. As I put them together, I realized that most of them are PLs. Now Morgans are very different from your area and from most 20th century stuff, and I believe Morgans are much more common (at least for most dates), but something about the mid-grade, 63PLs-65PLs and DPLs distracts me so much that I tire of them. So, out they are going.
But here are a couple that I am not shipping out any time soon and that I view as worthy keepers. The first is a 65 semi-pl and I was a bit surprised that it did not grade PL, and the second is just a nice 64PL.
Tom
@TPRC
Those look nice I wonder if a good bath on the 82 to remove the haze could garner a PL?
Don’t get me wrong I like it the way it is but isn’t there a big price jump.
I agree! Not huge, but enough if it upgraded. I bought it raw as a 64 shot 5PL.
Tom
This one is an NGC AU58PL
Mr_Spud
The penny in mine has turned red-er 😁with a circular toning around the edges 😎
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
But if the wash is too harsh and it strips away the original skin you’re going to lose a grade point anyway.
And you’re back in the same boat with a 64 PL.
I waited about 28 years to have a coin appreciated for its PL quality. The coin is the 1948-S PCGS MS67PL FB Roosevelt Dime.
It came out of an original roll back in 1990.
I kept it all these years before slabbing at PCGS.
Nice roll find!
I don't know, I sometimes think the TPG's grade the Morgan PLs more harshly, or maybe I just overlook the extra hits and appreciate the PL surfaces and sometimes that B&W cameo look. Here's a couple of 62's & 63's that I owned.