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Who is the third greatest hitter of all time ?

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  • 1948_Swell_Robinson1948_Swell_Robinson Posts: 1,922 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 12, 2021 5:16PM

    @dallasactuary said:

    @coolstanley said:
    How was it cheating? That's a lie. It was a level playing field.

    I am at a complete loss for words. Words that wouldn't get me bammed, anyway.

    It was either a level playing field or there were other factors that drove the increase in offense. Probably a mixture of both.

    The league wide increase happened nearly overnight. 1988-1992 was lower offense, 1993 uptick in offense, then 1994 onward it went to the moon.

    To highlight this:
    The league OPS in 1988 was .696. In 1989 it was .695

    Then in 1999 it was .778 and in the year 2000 it was .782....which are the highest and second highest league OPS ever after the year 1900. Most of the next closest ones are in the years from 1994 and on.

    Why would Bonds NOT increase his numbers like everyone else when the numbers went through the roof? If the answer is that because everyone else was doing steroids too, then it backs up the premise of level playing field.

    If the answer of the dramatic increased league numbers was due to factors other than steroids, then Bonds would get an increase in production independent of steroids as well.

    It is not a cut and dry answer.

    Also, people are really undervaluing the type of hitter Bonds was becoming in 1992 and 1993. He had OPS+ of 204 and 206 those years. George Brett is the only hitter to eclipse OPS+ of 200 from the years 1970 to 1993, and Brett didn't play the full year that year. Bonds did it twice!

    So if Bonds was putting up an OPS+ of 204 and 206 in 1992 and 1993 when there were known steroid users throughout MLB, then if steroids truly helped, then it makes it that much more impressive for Bonds to achieve an OPS+ of 204 and 206 against a league full of users.

    Then if the league was already filled with known steroid users in 1992 and 1993(if you even included Bonds there too)....then the huge jump in offense from 1994 and onward was due to something else, then Bonds partook in that increase like everyone else.

    It is not cut and dry.

    Bonds had a lifetime OPS+ of 163 through 1999. If he was clean, then that means he had that high of an OPS+ against a league filled with steroid users. That would put him higher than Frank Robinson who sat at 156 through age 35 on an even playing field. Bonds would be doing his against an uneven playing field....unless the offensive uptick was due to something else. How high of value would a 163 OPS+ be if you were playing at a disadvantage against your league mates. If the answer is that Bonds was doing them earlier, then his increase in 2001 was due to what then??

  • Historicalwood71Historicalwood71 Posts: 518 ✭✭✭

    @1951WheatiesPremium said:

    @Historicalwood71 said:
    3rd best ever " hitter" ..... Joe DiMaggio

    It’s amazing to think that he could have also had some stats of those early PCL years on the ledger if he had simply been born East of the Mississippi instead of West…

    …not to say he’d have had the prodigious totals he did but based on his rookie season totals, there’s a decent chance he’d have added something worthwhile.

    Certainly deserves consideration.

    Right buddy! Joe DiMaggio had one of the best swings in baseball. I'd rank Pete Rose, Ted Williams, Joe DiMaggio, Ty Cobb in that order. You have to Have Pete up top . Hank Aaron after Cobb. Alot of people don't realize he wasn't just a homerun king, but a hitter also. What?.....top 6 of all time hits with Aaron? Amazing players!!!!

  • Historicalwood71Historicalwood71 Posts: 518 ✭✭✭

    @stevek said:

    @AFLfan said:

    @stevek said:

    I'm not sure why some of this reminds me of what I'm about to type, but it does...and also sort of a continuation of what I preciously posted.

    Reminds me of all those Germans in the 1930's who were lustily cheering Hitler. (yes we just reached Godwin's Law - LOL)

    They all cheered and cheered, but then they lost the war and blamed Hitler for the atrocities, etc.

    >

    I'm having a very difficult time connecting these two. Let's please leave Hitler's atrocities out of any further discussions here. To attempt to associate his actions and how they were viewed in any way to modern sport is terribly disrespectful to millions of people.

    <<< To attempt to associate his actions and how they were viewed in any way to modern sport is terribly disrespectful to millions of people. >>>

    Todd if you knew me better, you would understand how utterly distasteful this remark is to me. That I would in any way shape or form be "terribly disrespectful to millions of people", especially when i share much of their same heritage.

    I'm not going to elaborate further, but sorry I can't let that remark go.

    So i bid everyone here, a fond farewell and adieu, and i've immensely enjoyed my time on this forum.

    Signing out,

    stevek

    Don't leave!!!! My grandfather fought vs Hitler!!!

  • Historicalwood71Historicalwood71 Posts: 518 ✭✭✭

    @perkdog said:
    During the McGwire HR chase against Sosa and Griffey I naively never even gave a thought about these guys doing steroids, I just didn’t think of it. Part of it was back in the early 90’s I knew a lot of guys on steroids and aside from making them look incredibly Gym strong it really didn’t do much else for them like make them tougher or whatever they were trying to accomplish so I sort of just ignored it. But the McGwire HR chase was a great season, tainted or not it brought me back in to watching MLB a lot more and I enjoyed the hell out of it, it was fun and I got no regrets about enjoying it. I admit it’s a shame that hallowed records got destroyed but there is no way to tell who was 100% clean and of sound mind over the history of the sport. I think at the time people just didn’t realize what was going on until it was too late and cringed at the thought of breaching the subject

    Football players in 80s was accepted by fans then. We knew this! It was a rough sport! You had to have an edge! And we as fans didn't think twice about it. Yes, I agree to the Sammy and Mark McGuire thing. We didn't even care.

  • 1951WheatiesPremium1951WheatiesPremium Posts: 6,358 ✭✭✭✭✭

    While I don’t think he’s three, I don’t know of many hitters that were as fearsome and versatile in the box as Rickey Henderson. While he wasn’t always a locked into the game, giving max effort type of great player (or at least had that reputation) the list of players with more talent is incredibly short. And while it’s not hitting, per se, the impact of his base running turned 100 trips to first into trips to second for himself and the chaos behind the pitcher probably helped at least a few guys up at the plate. Remember, as Rickey would say…

    “If Rickey Henderson wants to steal second, Rickey’s gonna steal second.”

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  • galaxy27galaxy27 Posts: 7,756 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 12, 2021 6:06PM

    @1951WheatiesPremium said:
    While I don’t think he’s three, I don’t know of many hitters that were as fearsome and versatile in the box as Rickey Henderson. While he wasn’t always a locked into the game, giving max effort type of great player (or at least had that reputation) the list of players with more talent is incredibly short. And while it’s not hitting, per se, the impact of his base running turned 100 trips to first into trips to second for himself and the chaos behind the pitcher probably helped at least a few guys up at the plate. Remember, as Rickey would say…

    “If Rickey Henderson wants to steal second, Rickey’s gonna steal second.”

    wreaked all kinds of havoc on pitchers

    130 swipes in 149 games back in 1982. practically averaged a double in every game he played that season

    when he was 39-years-old he stole 66 bases

    so sick

    you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet

  • dallasactuarydallasactuary Posts: 4,253 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1951WheatiesPremium said:
    While I don’t think he’s three, I don’t know of many hitters that were as fearsome and versatile in the box as Rickey Henderson. While he wasn’t always a locked into the game, giving max effort type of great player (or at least had that reputation) the list of players with more talent is incredibly short. And while it’s not hitting, per se, the impact of his base running turned 100 trips to first into trips to second for himself and the chaos behind the pitcher probably helped at least a few guys up at the plate. Remember, as Rickey would say…

    “If Rickey Henderson wants to steal second, Rickey’s gonna steal second.”

    I took the OP to be literal, and only considered "hitting". But yes, Henderson, while not #3 in either case, was a fearsome offensive force when you also consider his baserunning. Likewise, Joe Morgan. They are each fairly comparable to Frank Robinson and Barry Bonds the human being, even if they didn't "hit" as well as either of them.

    And if we do consider baserunning, then I think Cobb enters the #3 conversation. Comparing him to Mays is almost impossible given the eras in which they played, but they do appear to be fairly similar as total offensive packages.

    @1948_Swell_Robinson said:
    Why would Bonds NOT increase his numbers like everyone else when the numbers went through the roof?

    Imma take a wild stab and say "BECAUSE HE WAS 40 FREAKIN' YEARS OLD!!!"

    Bonds numbers declined throughout the period you mentioned, and then Mr. Tater Head took over Bonds' aging body and had the four best seasons anyone had ever had. 100% of the available evidence, and not incidentally common sense and the ability to read, tell us to a metaphysical certainty that Bonds was cheating on an unprecedented scale. Look, I get it, there are lots of "fans" who simply don't care if they're watching baseball played by human beings or Mongo-hit-ball-hard played by scientific experiments with expanding heads, withering testicles, and backne. But the idea that Major League Baseball would actually honor Mr. Tater Head for cheating better than anyone else had ever cheated before is nauseating to baseball fans. ALL of us; not a single exception.

    This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
  • Mickey71Mickey71 Posts: 4,250 ✭✭✭✭

    @dallasactuary said:

    @1951WheatiesPremium said:
    While I don’t think he’s three, I don’t know of many hitters that were as fearsome and versatile in the box as Rickey Henderson. While he wasn’t always a locked into the game, giving max effort type of great player (or at least had that reputation) the list of players with more talent is incredibly short. And while it’s not hitting, per se, the impact of his base running turned 100 trips to first into trips to second for himself and the chaos behind the pitcher probably helped at least a few guys up at the plate. Remember, as Rickey would say…

    “If Rickey Henderson wants to steal second, Rickey’s gonna steal second.”

    I took the OP to be literal, and only considered "hitting". But yes, Henderson, while not #3 in either case, was a fearsome offensive force when you also consider his baserunning. Likewise, Joe Morgan. They are each fairly comparable to Frank Robinson and Barry Bonds the human being, even if they didn't "hit" as well as either of them.

    And if we do consider baserunning, then I think Cobb enters the #3 conversation. Comparing him to Mays is almost impossible given the eras in which they played, but they do appear to be fairly similar as total offensive packages.

    @1948_Swell_Robinson said:
    Why would Bonds NOT increase his numbers like everyone else when the numbers went through the roof?

    Imma take a wild stab and say "BECAUSE HE WAS 40 FREAKIN' YEARS OLD!!!"

    Bonds numbers declined throughout the period you mentioned, and then Mr. Tater Head took over Bonds' aging body and had the four best seasons anyone had ever had. 100% of the available evidence, and not incidentally common sense and the ability to read, tell us to a metaphysical certainty that Bonds was cheating on an unprecedented scale. Look, I get it, there are lots of "fans" who simply don't care if they're watching baseball played by human beings or Mongo-hit-ball-hard played by scientific experiments with expanding heads, withering testicles, and backne. But the idea that Major League Baseball would actually honor Mr. Tater Head for cheating better than anyone else had ever cheated before is nauseating to baseball fans. ALL of us; not a single exception.

    I agree. Bonds' cheating was on another level. Chemists and everything else involved is just ridiculous. Someone should post the picture of him from the side deadlifting. I believe it was from a Sports Illustrated? It showed his mass....he simply looked like a power lifter. Preposterous.

  • 1951WheatiesPremium1951WheatiesPremium Posts: 6,358 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @dallasactuary

    I don’t know myself but should baserunning be separated from hitting?

    It’s possible to “leg out” a hit and it seems no matter how hard you hit the ball, if it doesn’t leave the yard then speed does come into play as part of the act of hitting the ball.

    This, again, is part of the reason why breaking the sport into individual statistical component metrics can be problematic at times.

    A guy like Ichiro’s hitting approach was completely predicated on speed. ‘Slap and run’ as opposed to ‘mash and march’, as it were.

    Get on, get over, get in.

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  • 1951WheatiesPremium1951WheatiesPremium Posts: 6,358 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 13, 2021 2:27AM

    @Mickey71 said:

    @dallasactuary said:

    @1951WheatiesPremium said:
    While I don’t think he’s three, I don’t know of many hitters that were as fearsome and versatile in the box as Rickey Henderson. While he wasn’t always a locked into the game, giving max effort type of great player (or at least had that reputation) the list of players with more talent is incredibly short. And while it’s not hitting, per se, the impact of his base running turned 100 trips to first into trips to second for himself and the chaos behind the pitcher probably helped at least a few guys up at the plate. Remember, as Rickey would say…

    “If Rickey Henderson wants to steal second, Rickey’s gonna steal second.”

    I took the OP to be literal, and only considered "hitting". But yes, Henderson, while not #3 in either case, was a fearsome offensive force when you also consider his baserunning. Likewise, Joe Morgan. They are each fairly comparable to Frank Robinson and Barry Bonds the human being, even if they didn't "hit" as well as either of them.

    And if we do consider baserunning, then I think Cobb enters the #3 conversation. Comparing him to Mays is almost impossible given the eras in which they played, but they do appear to be fairly similar as total offensive packages.

    @1948_Swell_Robinson said:
    Why would Bonds NOT increase his numbers like everyone else when the numbers went through the roof?

    Imma take a wild stab and say "BECAUSE HE WAS 40 FREAKIN' YEARS OLD!!!"

    Bonds numbers declined throughout the period you mentioned, and then Mr. Tater Head took over Bonds' aging body and had the four best seasons anyone had ever had. 100% of the available evidence, and not incidentally common sense and the ability to read, tell us to a metaphysical certainty that Bonds was cheating on an unprecedented scale. Look, I get it, there are lots of "fans" who simply don't care if they're watching baseball played by human beings or Mongo-hit-ball-hard played by scientific experiments with expanding heads, withering testicles, and backne. But the idea that Major League Baseball would actually honor Mr. Tater Head for cheating better than anyone else had ever cheated before is nauseating to baseball fans. ALL of us; not a single exception.

    I agree. Bonds' cheating was on another level. Chemists and everything else involved is just ridiculous. Someone should post the picture of him from the side deadlifting. I believe it was from a Sports Illustrated? It showed his mass....he simply looked like a power lifter. Preposterous.

    Devil’s Advocate?

    He played better clean than everyone and as those cheating around him started to cheat and surpass him, he joined in and did that better than everyone, too.

    “I want to be the best ever…no matter what it takes.”

    That second part is the hard part for most people since ethics and morality will often prevent people from doing what is “wrong” in these cases.

    John Gotti wanted to be the head of the Gambino crime family. So, he did what it took to get there. Thankfully, most people don’t operate that way. 😉

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  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 30,547 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1951WheatiesPremium said:

    @Mickey71 said:

    @dallasactuary said:

    @1951WheatiesPremium said:
    While I don’t think he’s three, I don’t know of many hitters that were as fearsome and versatile in the box as Rickey Henderson. While he wasn’t always a locked into the game, giving max effort type of great player (or at least had that reputation) the list of players with more talent is incredibly short. And while it’s not hitting, per se, the impact of his base running turned 100 trips to first into trips to second for himself and the chaos behind the pitcher probably helped at least a few guys up at the plate. Remember, as Rickey would say…

    “If Rickey Henderson wants to steal second, Rickey’s gonna steal second.”

    I took the OP to be literal, and only considered "hitting". But yes, Henderson, while not #3 in either case, was a fearsome offensive force when you also consider his baserunning. Likewise, Joe Morgan. They are each fairly comparable to Frank Robinson and Barry Bonds the human being, even if they didn't "hit" as well as either of them.

    And if we do consider baserunning, then I think Cobb enters the #3 conversation. Comparing him to Mays is almost impossible given the eras in which they played, but they do appear to be fairly similar as total offensive packages.

    @1948_Swell_Robinson said:
    Why would Bonds NOT increase his numbers like everyone else when the numbers went through the roof?

    Imma take a wild stab and say "BECAUSE HE WAS 40 FREAKIN' YEARS OLD!!!"

    Bonds numbers declined throughout the period you mentioned, and then Mr. Tater Head took over Bonds' aging body and had the four best seasons anyone had ever had. 100% of the available evidence, and not incidentally common sense and the ability to read, tell us to a metaphysical certainty that Bonds was cheating on an unprecedented scale. Look, I get it, there are lots of "fans" who simply don't care if they're watching baseball played by human beings or Mongo-hit-ball-hard played by scientific experiments with expanding heads, withering testicles, and backne. But the idea that Major League Baseball would actually honor Mr. Tater Head for cheating better than anyone else had ever cheated before is nauseating to baseball fans. ALL of us; not a single exception.

    I agree. Bonds' cheating was on another level. Chemists and everything else involved is just ridiculous. Someone should post the picture of him from the side deadlifting. I believe it was from a Sports Illustrated? It showed his mass....he simply looked like a power lifter. Preposterous.

    Devil’s Advocate?

    He played better clean than everyone and as those cheating around him started to cheat and surpass him, he joined in and did that better than everyone, too.

    “I want to be the best ever…no matter what it takes.”

    That second part is the hard part for most people since ethics and morality will often prevent people from doing what is “wrong” in these cases.

    John Gotti wanted to be the head of the Gambino crime family. So, he did what it took to get there. Thankfully, most people don’t operate that way. 😉

    Agreed

  • Mickey71Mickey71 Posts: 4,250 ✭✭✭✭

    Devil’s Advocate?

    He played better clean than everyone and as those cheating around him started to cheat and surpass him, he joined in and did that better than everyone, too.

    “I want to be the best ever…no matter what it takes.”

    That second part is the hard part for most people since ethics and morality will often prevent people from doing what is “wrong” in these cases.

    John Gotti wanted to be the head of the Gambino crime family. So, he did what it took to get there. Thankfully, most people don’t operate that way. 😉

    I agree with you on some of this; but you are comparing Bonds to the players who also cheated in his era. Here is my point and the point of many on this topic:

    1. I don't consider any of that era amongst the greatest of all time because the cheating was so ridiculous.
    2. Also none of the big boys from the era are getting in the HOF in our lifetime. Obviously the opinion of HOF voters.
    3. When they all started to look like Full backs and muscular LBs and TEs I knew the game was in trouble.
    4. Also, in regards to the league/management doing nothing....the league/management wanted drug testing to be part of the financial agreement with the players union and the players were willing to strike over it and the management caved in for the good of the game. This was around 9/11 and fans were getting pissed that the country had REAL problems and the players union were going strike and not play baseball over money and drug tests when the salaries were already out of hand. I believe Tom Glavine was one of the ranking player reps in the union at the time.
  • Historicalwood71Historicalwood71 Posts: 518 ✭✭✭

    Sad part is, Bonds was already a great player before the issue. He was a "Ronald Acuna Jr" so to speak before the use. A better hitter also. This is definitely a problem going to the hall. But here's something... LET PETE ROSE IN NOW!

  • GoldenageGoldenage Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 13, 2021 4:43AM

    Finished my research and here is what I came up with.

    If Williams hits third in my lineup and Ruth fourth, then my only obvious choice is Ty Cobb hitting leadoff.

    My fifth spot could go to either Foxx, Hornsby, or Musial.

    Could someone please comment on a better alternative.

  • GoldenageGoldenage Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

    1- Ty Cobb. Centerfield
    2- Rogers Hornsby. 2nd base
    3- Ted Williams. Outfield
    4- Babe Ruth. Pitcher
    5- Jimmie Foxx. Catcher

    Still working on the rest.

  • AFLfanAFLfan Posts: 1,272 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't believe anyone has mentioned Tony Gwynn. Not a big home run guy, but you'd be hard pressed to find a better hitter.

    Todd Tobias - Grateful Collector - I focus on autographed American Football League sets, Fleer & Topps, 1960-1969, and lacrosse cards.
  • 1951WheatiesPremium1951WheatiesPremium Posts: 6,358 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Goldenage said:
    Finished my research and here is what I came up with.

    If Williams hits third in my lineup and Ruth fourth, then my only obvious choice is Ty Cobb hitting leadoff.

    My fifth spot could go to either Foxx, Hornsby, or Musial.

    Could someone please comment on a better alternative.

    With just the leftovers?

    Rickey Henderson
    Mickey Mantle
    Willie Mays
    Hank Aaron
    Joe DiMaggio

    See you on the sandlot!

    You’re in trouble. 😉

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  • GoldenageGoldenage Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Question about Ted Williams.

    They would use the Williams shift on him because he was such a pull hitter. With no bullpen in Fenway during his time, and that right field wall back another 10 feet, could he have hit 700 home runs if he didn’t miss time and with a bullpen.

  • GoldenageGoldenage Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 13, 2021 4:50AM

    @AFLfan said:
    I don't believe anyone has mentioned Tony Gwynn. Not a big home run guy, but you'd be hard pressed to find a better hitter.

    No doubt one of the best contact hitters to ever play.

  • AFLfanAFLfan Posts: 1,272 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Goldenage said:

    @AFLfan said:
    I don't believe anyone has mentioned Tony Gwynn. Not a big home run guy, but you'd be hard pressed to find a better hitter.

    No doubt one of the best contact hitters to ever play.

    Ha. Possibly, but it seemed like eight batting titles should be noted in a discussion about the top hitters of all time.

    Todd Tobias - Grateful Collector - I focus on autographed American Football League sets, Fleer & Topps, 1960-1969, and lacrosse cards.
  • Historicalwood71Historicalwood71 Posts: 518 ✭✭✭

    Musial was an absolute monster in everything he did!!!! That guy should be in top 7 all time greatest!!!

  • Historicalwood71Historicalwood71 Posts: 518 ✭✭✭

    We'd have Ted Williams at number one without a doubt if he didn't serve in WW2. But you know what..... That actually makes him and others even better! Bless them!

  • 1951WheatiesPremium1951WheatiesPremium Posts: 6,358 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Cobb, Gwynn, Boggs and Ichiro were tremendous hitters and really all around players. The common thread among them is they were contact hitters with the goal of hitting their way to first base. It does come down to approach and starts when they’re young; hitting to contact is baseball. Power comes as much from swinging the bat with accuracy if not more than ‘swinging hard’. That is both hard to teach to and hard to understand for most kids. So teach and do what’s easier.

    We are watching a he slow death of contact hitting; as more and more major leaguers drink the KoolAid on uppercut swings and launch angle and ignore the plummeting average that is being blamed on “how good the pitchers are”…

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  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,847 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Goldenage said:
    1- Ty Cobb. Centerfield
    2- Rogers Hornsby. 2nd base
    3- Ted Williams. Outfield
    4- Babe Ruth. Pitcher
    5- Jimmie Foxx. Catcher

    Still working on the rest.

    As a compromise you could use Barry Bonds as the team mascot. That way he could race the other team mascots in between innings.

    Walker Proof Digital Album
    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
  • TabeTabe Posts: 6,060 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @AFLfan said:

    “If Rickey Henderson wants to steal second, Rickey’s gonna steal second.”

    My favorite story about Rickey is from 1982. He was sitting on 117 steals (or thereabouts) and in the final game of a homestand. Oakland was playing Detroit. Mike Heath was on 2B and Rickey was on 1st. Heath got himself picked off intentionally so Rickey could try and steal 2nd to tie/break the record. Detroit gunned him down. Beautiful.

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