Who is the third greatest hitter of all time ?

Goldenage

If you’re in the camp that the first two spots easily go to Ruth and Williams, then who do you have as a solid #3 ?

I have never been able to come to a conclusion in my head about who is the solid choice to follow these two.

stevek

On my list for #3 is Mays.

As much as i personally like Mantle as a player and for his baseball cards, Mickey doesn't even make my top ten list because frankly, except for a few stellar seasons, his yearly RBI totals are a disappointment. Only in four seasons did he break 100.

Goldenage

I always thought Ty Cobb had to be #3.

Btw, if I’m going to measure Bonds then I’m using his years before his head and body doubled in size.

Hydrant

@Goldenage said:

Btw, if I’m going to measure Bonds then I’m using his years before his head and body doubled in size.

I read somewhere that steroids can actually cause the head to shrink. 😉

JoeBanzai

Rogers Hornsby.

Hydrant

@JoeBanzai said:
Rogers Hornsby.

Not a bad pick.

JoeBanzai

Gehrig or Foxx were right there too.

Hornsby was the only hitter other than Williams to win the "Triple Crown" twice.

Goldenage

@JoeBanzai said:
Gehrig or Foxx were right there too.

Hornsby was the only hitter other than Williams to win the "Triple Crown" twice.

Gehrig, Cobb, Hornsby, and Foxx.

Those look like a good “final four” to
study to see which one gets in the number three slot behind Ruth and Williams.

Tabe

If we're going to punish Bonds for - possibly - taking steroids then I think Williams and Ruth should be punished for playing in non-integrated leagues. To me, that puts them on a level plane.

Therefore, my rankings:

1) Barry Bonds
2) Babe Ruth
3) Ted Williams

Bonds has the home run record and also stole 500+ bases. Easy #1.

Hydrant

Stan Musial was one of the best. Seems like he's the forgotten man nowadays.

perkdog

@Hydrant said:
Stan Musial was one of the best. Seems like he's the forgotten man nowadays.

I was going to mention him, he is never mentioned in great player discussions.

perkdog

Nobody was more of a feared hitter or better than Bonds when he was at his best. Steroids are the rub though

Goldenage

@Tabe said:
If we're going to punish Bonds for - possibly - taking steroids then I think Williams and Ruth should be punished for playing in non-integrated leagues. To me, that puts them on a level plane.

Therefore, my rankings:

1) Barry Bonds
2) Babe Ruth
3) Ted Williams

Bonds has the home run record and also stole 500+ bases. Easy #1.

Possibly - Lol

Williams and Ruth had no control over that. Bonds did.

What black pitchers in the AL in the 60s would have shut down Ruth or Williams ?

What black pitchers in the AL in the 70s would have ?

How about the 80s ? Lol

Cant wait for your list. Lol

Goldenage

@perkdog said:
Nobody was more of a feared hitter or better than Bonds when he was at his best. Steroids are the rub though

There are six other guys in the history of the game who got on base more than Bonds, including Ruth and Williams.

But if I use Barry’s numbers before the steroids then it’s a whole new ballgame.

Justacommeman

Put me down for a Cobb

m

Darin

For me Musial, Gehrig or Aaron.

In that order.
Musial was just a tick below Williams in avg. and power and he played against much better defenses
than Cobb or Hornsby or anyone from that era.

galaxy27

@Tabe said:

If we're going to punish Bonds for - possibly - taking steroids

Darin

Bonds could have taken down the incredible hulk during the height of his halcyon days of guzzling steroids.

stevek

Barry Bonds is 56 years old. If he makes it to 65, I'll be surprised. Some type of aggressive cancer to one or more of his internal organs will probably get him, caused by the steroid use.

That being said, he was one helluva player before the steroid use...and he still would have been a great player without the juice, in my opinion.

Taking all that into account, overall he was so good, I've got him at #4 on my all time greatest hitters list.

Tabe

@Goldenage said:
Possibly - Lol

Oh, I think he used, no question

Williams and Ruth had no control over that. Bonds did.

This is irrelevant.

What black pitchers in the AL in the 60s would have shut down Ruth or Williams ?

All of them since they were over the hill or dead?

Your question misses the point:

Go back to the 1880s and make baseball fully integrated. Now, 40 years later, what do the black pitchers in the majors look like? How about 65 years later? Hint: There'd be a lot more of them and they'd be a lot better overall than there ended up being in 1960.

Setting that aside - Bonds put up his numbers while playing with airline travel, night games (unlike Ruth), and far better relief pitchers with significantly higher pitch velocity. He faced tougher conditions in an integrated environment - and still exceeded Ruth's home run record by over 20% and beat Williams' OBP record.

1951WheatiesPremium

@Hydrant said:
Stan Musial was one of the best. Seems like he's the forgotten man nowadays.

He’s 1A. Great name to mention.

Which leads us to 1B for me, his companion in the ‘why does he never get mentioned?’ category has to have been a ROY, AL MVP, NL MVP, 13 time All Star and Triple Crown winner: Hall of Famer Frank Robinson.

My father always tells me he was lethal against the Yankees and is probably the most under appreciated baseball player in history.

1951WheatiesPremium

Just popped in my head, here…

While today may result in a snicker at his mention, I think the body of work also puts Albert Pujols into the discussion for the third slot.

Slipping in som additional names, there’s several deserving name already posted so I figured I’d add name I didn’t see - no more to less.

coolstanley

Bonds holds the most AND the most impressive hitting/base-running records.

1. Bonds
2. Williams
3. Mays
4. Ruth
5. Musial

1951WheatiesPremium

@coolstanley said:
Bonds holds the most AND the most impressive hitting/base-running records.

1. Bonds
2. Williams
3. Mays
4. Ruth
5. Musial

I really struggle with Barry Bonds. I freely admit that. He’s a tough one to place. I know from about 2001-career end, I have never seen a more lethal batter in a batter’s box in my entire lifetime and there’s a good chance I never will again.

If we ignore how he came to be that player, he could rank as high as you like and it would be very hard to refute.

Finally, in these sports talk threads, I do offer my opinion but do not believe I am correct and someone else is wrong.

I enjoy the spirited debates that result and enjoy the well crafted answers offered.

Good on ya, fellas.

Goldenage

I only look at Bonds stats from age 21 to 26 when comparing him to other greats, and he isn’t even close to the top 50.

What he did from age 36 to 40 is just laughable. If anyone can’t see how he did it, then please excuse me from debating you on how “great” Barry was.

stevek

Keep in mind with Bonds the number of hits, homers, etc, he would have had if he hadn't been intentionally walked so much.

I've never seen any hitter close to getting the amount of intentional walks, when it wasn't really a normal intentional walk situation. They were intentionally walking Bonds because they figured best to just let him have first base, rather than allow him hit and probably do worse damage with the bat in his hands.

1951WheatiesPremium

@stevek said:
Keep in mind with Bonds the number of hits, homers, etc, he would have had if he hadn't been intentionally walked so much.

I've never seen any hitter close to getting the amount of intentional walks, when it wasn't really a normal intentional walk situation. They were intentionally walking Bonds because they figured best to just let him have first base, rather than allow him hit and probably do worse damage with the bat in his hands.

Once, Barry Bonds was walked intentionally with the bases loaded. It has only happened one other time*. In both cases, the opposing manager preferred to give up one run late in the game rather than risk giving the batter a chance to tie or win it with a swing and in both cases the lead was preserved and the team that issued the walk and run still won the game.

Again, I have my own opinions on Barry Bonds and how he came to achieve his success. And again, I struggle with where to put him as a result.

*Josh Hamilton is the only other player to have this happen since it’s been tracked (1955).

stevek

@Goldenage said:
I only look at Bonds stats from age 21 to 26 when comparing him to other greats, and he isn’t even close to the top 50.

What he did from age 36 to 40 is just laughable. If anyone can’t see how he did it, then please excuse me from debating you on how “great” Barry was.

Evaluating Bonds for the list because of the steroids, can really only be subjective. Of course the steroids made him better, that isn't debatable. The question is by how much and that is impossible to determine with definitive accuracy.

That being said, if Bonds never took steroids, I still wouldn't change my top two of Ruth and Williams. But i would place Bonds third instead of Willie Mays. Mays would then drop back to fourth.

1951WheatiesPremium

As I always heard it - not that that makes it accurate - it was being left off the All Century team that caused Bonds to ‘dive in’ with the rest of many steroid users. And that was a pretty good slap in the face, in my opinion, and at least partly driven by his relationship with the media. A less proven (and less jaded) Ken Griffey Jr. making the list destroyed any chance of blaming it on his being active or not having enough service time.

The money, the disrespect, the records, the money and the money played as big a part as anything.

If you look around the world, unscrupulous people very often achieve financial success. That is just the way it is. That’s not to say all wealthy people are unscrupulous, either. But if you had them form two lines, I think I could guess the shorter.

Goldenage

@stevek said:

@Goldenage said:
I only look at Bonds stats from age 21 to 26 when comparing him to other greats, and he isn’t even close to the top 50.

What he did from age 36 to 40 is just laughable. If anyone can’t see how he did it, then please excuse me from debating you on how “great” Barry was.

Evaluating Bonds for the list because of the steroids, can really only be subjective. Of course the steroids made him better, that isn't debatable. The question is by how much and that is impossible to determine with definitive accuracy.

That being said, if Bonds never took steroids, I still wouldn't change my top two of Ruth and Williams. But i would place Bonds third instead of Willie Mays. Mays would then drop back to fourth.

It’s very measurable. Look at his OPS+ between the ages of 21-26 and compare them to his OPS+ from age 36-40.

Very easy to measure.

A “normal” player before 1980 has historically had declining stats after age 38.

Big Papi and Bonds got better as they got older.

Goldenage

I will say this about Barry.
We will never know how truly great he could have been. And that’s a shame. If he was still the 185 pound kid his entire career, then he could have retired as a legitimate #1.
Sadly we will never know. But that’s on him, not us. Going from 185 to 230 is impossible without the juice.

Goldenage

A young Jason Giambi and Bonds.

stevek

@1951WheatiesPremium said:
As I always heard it - not that that makes it accurate - it was being left off the All Century team that caused Bonds to ‘dive in’ with the rest of many steroid users. And that was a pretty good slap in the face, in my opinion, and at least partly driven by his relationship with the media. A less proven (and less jaded) Ken Griffey Jr. making the list destroyed any chance of blaming it on his being active or not having enough service time.

The money, the disrespect, the records, the money and the money played as big a part as anything.

If you look around the world, unscrupulous people very often achieve financial success. That is just the way it is. That’s not to say all wealthy people are unscrupulous, either. But if you had them form two lines, I think I could guess the shorter.

Unfortunately, you're right. But frankly, Bonds should consider himself lucky that he's still alive today.

Sorry to be disrespectful, and it's just my opinion, but i absolutely believe for a number of reasons, that Walter Payton who died at age 45, passed early because of steroid use or some sort of PED use.

I could name a number of others who I believe this happened, or the players actually admitted before passing that's why it happened of them dying way too young from PED use, and it's usually from some type of cancer.

I guess it's like smoking. Depending on the person, some get lung cancer at an early age and some may never get it. But Bonds made the Faustian pact with the devil called steroids, and my guess is right now considering he is still alive, that he's glad he did it.

stevek

Look at a player such as Roger Maris, died of cancer at age 51.

Jim Bouton in his famous book stated, paraphrase, that greenies (amphetamines) were taken in the Yankees locker room like candy. There is no doubt in my mind, considering all the circumstances, that Maris succumbed to the temptation of these drugs, and it caused him to pass at a way too early age.

The Faustian pact of breaking Ruth's HR record, payment to the devil was made when Roger was 51.

dallasactuary

@stevek said:

Evaluating Bonds for the list because of the steroids, can really only be subjective. Of course the steroids made him better, that isn't debatable. The question is by how much and that is impossible to determine with definitive accuracy.

When you say that evaluating Bonds can "only" be subjective, you imply that any evaluation is "entirely" subjective, which is not true. No, we can't know for certain what he would have done had he not cheated, but we can form a pretty solid estimate based on what everyone else before him did as they got older. And even if Bonds had declined as slowly as anyone else ever had, his name would never have come up in a GOAT conversation.

I ignore everything he did once he started cheating (and if you take a quick look at his stats and your brain works you can tell when that was), but anyone else is free to treat those years differently. If you consider Mr. Tater Head's accomplishments to "count" towards Barry Bonds' totals, then he's the GOAT, or awfully close to it. If you make a reasonable estimate of what Barry Bonds would have done had he not mutated into Mr. Tater Head, he's a reasonable candidate for 3rd best hitter. But if you stop counting Mr. Tater Head's accomplishments as those of Barry Bonds (who was a human being), then Bonds was a step below.

I recall doing the analysis once of estimating what Bonds would have done had he kept playing baseball as Barry Bonds instead of pharmaball as Mr. Tater Head, and Bonds' career projected out to be pretty comparable to Frank Robinson's, maybe a little better.

coolstanley

How was it cheating? That's a lie. It was a level playing field.

stevek

@dallasactuary said:

@stevek said:

Evaluating Bonds for the list because of the steroids, can really only be subjective. Of course the steroids made him better, that isn't debatable. The question is by how much and that is impossible to determine with definitive accuracy.

When you say that evaluating Bonds can "only" be subjective, you imply that any evaluation is "entirely" subjective, which is not true. No, we can't know for certain what he would have done had he not cheated, but we can form a pretty solid estimate based on what everyone else before him did as they got older. And even if Bonds had declined as slowly as anyone else ever had, his name would never have come up in a GOAT conversation.

I ignore everything he did once he started cheating (and if you take a quick look at his stats and your brain works you can tell when that was), but anyone else is free to treat those years differently. If you consider Mr. Tater Head's accomplishments to "count" towards Barry Bonds' totals, then he's the GOAT, or awfully close to it. If you make a reasonable estimate of what Barry Bonds would have done had he not mutated into Mr. Tater Head, he's a reasonable candidate for 3rd best hitter. But if you stop counting Mr. Tater Head's accomplishments as those of Barry Bonds (who was a human being), then Bonds was a step below.

I recall doing the analysis once of estimating what Bonds would have done had he kept playing baseball as Barry Bonds instead of pharmaball as Mr. Tater Head, and Bonds' career projected out to be pretty comparable to Frank Robinson's, maybe a little better.

I think you're probably denigrating Bonds because you don't like the guy. Well i don't like him either. But I can't allow that to interfere with the facts of his amazing performance.

I thought i had previously pointed out that steroids, smoking, amphetamines, etc, affects different people in different ways. It is impossible to equate Bonds steroid performance into some sort of definitive chart, based on how others have performed at the same age.

There are exceptions to sports aging rules, and Tom Brady is a good example of that. Bonds could have been an exception as well. We shall never know for sure.

My opinion and your opinion on this are subjective as to how much the steroids benefited his performance. Trying to spin that subjectivity in some manner does not make it more plausible.

dallasactuary

@stevek said:

There are exceptions to sports aging rules, and Tom Brady is a good example of that. Bonds could have been an exception as well. We shall never know for sure.

My opinion and your opinion on this are subjective as to how much the steroids benefited his performance. Trying to spin that subjectivity in some manner does not make it more plausible.

Yes, we could assume that Bonds might possibly have done something no human being had ever done before (and still hasn't), and we could assume that baseball skill beams from Mars might have been the answer, too. But why would we humiliate ourselves by making either equally plausible assumption? Yes, there is a one in an octillion chance that Bonds' baseball accomplishments are meaningful, and we will "never know for sure" if the truth maybe, just maybe, lies somewhere in the other 999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999 possibilities. Spin it however you want but my opinion is quite a bit more plausible than yours. While we can't be 100% certain, if you're ever forced to bet your life on the right answer, please don't go with "could have been an exception to the aging rules"; we would miss you.

And you've got a chicken/egg in your post, too. I didn't care one way or the other about Bonds until he dropped trou, squatted, and took a massive dump on baseball and on everyone who cares about the sport. If you're a Bonds fan, then that doesn't include you, but baseball fans - 100% of us - despise the man.

dallasactuary

@coolstanley said:
How was it cheating? That's a lie. It was a level playing field.

I am at a complete loss for words. Words that wouldn't get me bammed, anyway.

Goldenage

Check out what Willie Mays and Bobby Bonds did from age 36 and on. Then look at what Barry did.

Bobby must have made love to Wonder Woman to birth Barry.

stevek

@dallasactuary said:

@stevek said:

There are exceptions to sports aging rules, and Tom Brady is a good example of that. Bonds could have been an exception as well. We shall never know for sure.

My opinion and your opinion on this are subjective as to how much the steroids benefited his performance. Trying to spin that subjectivity in some manner does not make it more plausible.

Yes, we could assume that Bonds might possibly have done something no human being had ever done before (and still hasn't), and we could assume that baseball skill beams from Mars might have been the answer, too. But why would we humiliate ourselves by making either equally plausible assumption? Yes, there is a one in an octillion chance that Bonds' baseball accomplishments are meaningful, and we will "never know for sure" if the truth maybe, just maybe, lies somewhere in the other 999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999 possibilities. Spin it however you want but my opinion is quite a bit more plausible than yours. While we can't be 100% certain, if you're ever forced to bet your life on the right answer, please don't go with "could have been an exception to the aging rules"; we would miss you.

And you've got a chicken/egg in your post, too. I didn't care one way or the other about Bonds until he dropped trou, squatted, and took a massive dump on baseball and on everyone who cares about the sport. If you're a Bonds fan, then that doesn't include you, but baseball fans - 100% of us - despise the man.

Barry Bonds hit 762 home runs. I didn't notice Bonds sprinkling pixie dust to make the balls go over the fence after the balls touched his bat. He hit them - that is an incontrovertible fact.

How many home runs would Roger Maris have hit in 1961 without the greenies? How many career homers would Mantle have hit without the greenies? The list goes on and on.

Sorry to inform you, but if you're searching for saints in the world of professional sports, you're looking in the wrong place.

1951WheatiesPremium

While I’d like to continue to add more to this discussion, I think I’m at the point where this thread is now more like…

JoeBanzai

@dallasactuary said:

@stevek said:

There are exceptions to sports aging rules, and Tom Brady is a good example of that. Bonds could have been an exception as well. We shall never know for sure.

My opinion and your opinion on this are subjective as to how much the steroids benefited his performance. Trying to spin that subjectivity in some manner does not make it more plausible.

Yes, we could assume that Bonds might possibly have done something no human being had ever done before (and still hasn't), and we could assume that baseball skill beams from Mars might have been the answer, too. But why would we humiliate ourselves by making either equally plausible assumption? Yes, there is a one in an octillion chance that Bonds' baseball accomplishments are meaningful, and we will "never know for sure" if the truth maybe, just maybe, lies somewhere in the other 999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999 possibilities. Spin it however you want but my opinion is quite a bit more plausible than yours. While we can't be 100% certain, if you're ever forced to bet your life on the right answer, please don't go with "could have been an exception to the aging rules"; we would miss you.

And you've got a chicken/egg in your post, too. I didn't care one way or the other about Bonds until he dropped trou, squatted, and took a massive dump on baseball and on everyone who cares about the sport. If you're a Bonds fan, then that doesn't include you, but baseball fans - 100% of us - despise the man.

I agree with you completely dallas. A good estimate would be a Frank Robinson type. No GOAT for Barry. No need to elaborate. You have put it into words quite well.

@dallasactuary said:

@coolstanley said:
How was it cheating? That's a lie. It was a level playing field.

I am at a complete loss for words. Words that wouldn't get me bammed, anyway.

Again, we are in complete agreement. The ignore option has kept me from getting the "bam", it's a beautiful thing.

As much as we have gone round and round, I value your opinions. Some posters really have nothing to offer worth reading. They are either "trolling" or.................well Todd doesn't like me to use that word.

Tabe

@1951WheatiesPremium said:
As I always heard it - not that that makes it accurate - it was being left off the All Century team that caused Bonds to ‘dive in’ with the rest of many steroid users. And that was a pretty good slap in the face, in my opinion, and at least partly driven by his relationship with the media. A less proven (and less jaded) Ken Griffey Jr. making the list destroyed any chance of blaming it on his being active or not having enough service time.

I've always thought he started using prior to 1993. He went from a career high of 34 homers to 46 - while simultaneously moving to a park that was notoriously difficult to hit in.

dallasactuary

@Tabe said:

I've always thought he started using prior to 1993. He went from a career high of 34 homers to 46 - while simultaneously moving to a park that was notoriously difficult to hit in.

It's possible he was dabbling with steroids back then, but he went bat(feces) crazy with them starting in 2000. Or maybe he was using in 1993 but decided living long enough to get Social Security mattered after all, because his stats trend down more or less normally from there until he got his feels hurt by the big bad All Century voters.

Justacommeman

Barry Bonds will always have a giant asterisk attached to him. It precludes him from any serious greatest ever conversations. Would have, could have, should of just don't cut it. He has no one to blame but himself. For the record I loved watching him in the day.

m

stevek

Okay so now, "but baseball fans - 100% of us - despise the man."

That's okay, despise anybody you like. That's your prerogative. I stated earlier that i don't like Barry Bonds either.

His close family friend, Willie Mays, isn't a very likeable guy either. Perhaps Barry Bonds picked up some, if not a lot of his surliness from Willie?

But let's not be hypocritical. Baseball fans in 1998 were coming out to the ballpark in droves to watch Mark McGwire shatter the single season home run record of Roger Maris. Later in 2001, Barry Bonds broke McGwire's record and fans were still coming out to the ballpark in droves.

Everybody, you, me, our grandmothers and everyone else including the MLB owners knew what was going on with the juice, and we all looked the other way because of the excitement of home runs.

Then somewhere along the line we all got tired of baseballs leaving the ballpark like the players were taking a fungo bat to a rubber super-ball. The juicing info then "officially" came out, and we didn't want our kids using it and dropping dead from various cancers. So we then ostracized McGwire, Bonds, and the rest of them.

Bonds tried to better himself with the juice for his own personal glory and to help his team win ballgames. Same as the other juicers. Same as the amphetamine users.

The player who i despise is a Pete Rose who blatantly cheated on the game by trying to fix games. Sorry but I don't despise any player for the reason of trying to help his team win ballgames by making himself athletically better. If you do, then you should also despise Mickey Mantle and others for popping amphetamines.

BTW, just in case you think steroids aren't the same as amphetamines as far as dangerous. I think i've posted this before. In my high school, amphetamines were a plague. Personally, I've never taken a single one, but everyone in the school knew who was using them, and in fact some in the circle of my friends, girls we dated, etc, were using them, and at times prolifically.

Sometimes for whatever morbid reason, i peruse the internet to see how old high school friends and classmates are doing. Some of them, fortunately not many, have passed. In total it's around eight i think. One died in her late forties, The others died in their 50's or very early 60's. Took me around the third or fourth one to notice any sort of connection, but it suddenly popped into my head that these were all amphetamine users. Then the ones who passed after that, were also amphetamine users. So while there are differences in different drugs, nobody is going to convince me that amphetamines are safe. If Bonds can't be excused, then perhaps Mickey shouldn't be excused either.

Bottom line - Bonds clearly deserves to be in the Hall of Fame, and i believe that he will eventually get there. Despite him being "despised", he deserves it.

Mickey71

@JoeBanzai said:
Gehrig or Foxx were right there too.

Hornsby was the only hitter other than Williams to win the "Triple Crown" twice.

Crap. We are basically agreeing on something else. WTH.

Mickey71

@Tabe said:
If we're going to punish Bonds for - possibly - taking steroids then I think Williams and Ruth should be punished for playing in non-integrated leagues. To me, that puts them on a level plane.

Therefore, my rankings:

1) Barry Bonds
2) Babe Ruth
3) Ted Williams

Bonds has the home run record and also stole 500+ bases. Easy #1.

Completely disagree; but you have the right to your opinion. Bonds was certainly a great player; but a cheater on such an advanced level that it is hard to comprehend. I mean he had advanced steroids, trainers that administered this on exact cycles, scientists that were all working for labs to try and perfect all of this. I mean, really really really advanced cheating. Yes, McGwire, Sosa etc. were cheating also.

Goldenage

@Tabe said:

@Goldenage said:
Possibly - Lol

Oh, I think he used, no question

Williams and Ruth had no control over that. Bonds did.

This is irrelevant.

What black pitchers in the AL in the 60s would have shut down Ruth or Williams ?

All of them since they were over the hill or dead?

Your question misses the point:

Go back to the 1880s and make baseball fully integrated. Now, 40 years later, what do the black pitchers in the majors look like? How about 65 years later? Hint: There'd be a lot more of them and they'd be a lot better overall than there ended up being in 1960.

Setting that aside - Bonds put up his numbers while playing with airline travel, night games (unlike Ruth), and far better relief pitchers with significantly higher pitch velocity. He faced tougher conditions in an integrated environment - and still exceeded Ruth's home run record by over 20% and beat Williams' OBP record.

Bonds beat Williams OBP record ?

Baseball reference says Williams and Ruth are 1 and 2 and Bonds is a distant 7th.

1951WheatiesPremium

@Goldenage said:

@Tabe said:

@Goldenage said:
Possibly - Lol

Oh, I think he used, no question

Williams and Ruth had no control over that. Bonds did.

This is irrelevant.

What black pitchers in the AL in the 60s would have shut down Ruth or Williams ?

All of them since they were over the hill or dead?

Your question misses the point:

Go back to the 1880s and make baseball fully integrated. Now, 40 years later, what do the black pitchers in the majors look like? How about 65 years later? Hint: There'd be a lot more of them and they'd be a lot better overall than there ended up being in 1960.

Setting that aside - Bonds put up his numbers while playing with airline travel, night games (unlike Ruth), and far better relief pitchers with significantly higher pitch velocity. He faced tougher conditions in an integrated environment - and still exceeded Ruth's home run record by over 20% and beat Williams' OBP record.

Bonds beat Williams OBP record ?

Baseball reference says Williams and Ruth are 1 and 2 and Bonds is a distant 7th.

Single season, I think