What causes this type of toning? Bust Half Newp. (Back from PCGS now with true view)

Pnies20

Just got this 1825 O-109 from David Kahn. A tough R5-/R4+ variety. Was happy that it looked Better in hand than the pics. Totally original, no hair lining as sometimes comes with these old ANACS holders.

I have seen a bunch of bust halves with this solid blue iridescent toning. Is this a hallmark of sitting in ANACS holders? It’s a lot brighter in hand than the pics.

PhilLynott

Very nice coin no way to know what it looked like before hopping in that holder but wouldnt be surprised if it added the color over time. Either way great coin congrats!

Flatwoods

Nice coin.
I would say there is a good chance that the holder imparted that toning.

lkeigwin

I don't think blue toning is a product of this holder. It happens naturally to some coins, probably due to the storage environment before slabbing.

Tough die marriage and nice coin!
Lance.

chesterb

Yes, I have noticed that trend on my old ANACS holdered coins. It only seems to happen on those OWH. I have before and after pics somewhere for some of the coins I’ve held a long time in my collection. I personally like it. I can also sometimes tell if a newly holdered coin was once in an ANACS slab by the same toning characteristics.

David Kahn is a straight up good guy to deal with.

Hydrant

Old age? Like 196 years worth of old age?

CoinJunkie

I know some early NGC holders were notorious for toning silver bright blue, but hadn't heard that ANACS holders would tone silver.

Namvet69

That is a great looking coin, love that profile. Peace Roy

ColonelJessup

Doing crack-outs for 35 years, I've seen literally thousands of these coins ((from antique (20th Century) ANACS Cache holders)) with similar color. The various generations can be identified,; I've seen previous threads here about it.

My experience as a coin cosmetologist tells me that this toning is a direct product of the gaseous emissions from the decomposition of the gasket.

The closer to original mint lustre, the greater the predisposition (likelihood) that oxidation will occur and the corrosion process accelerated into greater thin-film from perhaps transparent to translucent. (From previous posts here. I surmise @jmlanzaf can add more about this process than I can.) Seal the holder and keep out fresh oxygen. Minimize temperature variability to produce fewer gases. Etc.

Dave McCarthy of Kagins, known here as @Regulated, was the coin doctor cosmetologist conservationist who cleaned up the Saddle Ridge Horde really well, and he's proud he only lost a few coins in the process. He has a term for the propensity of a surface to bond with another surface as "grab". He stole it from the world of painting, where the texture of a canvas determined its ability to absorb various paints. Coin lustre is "purely" a product of surface texture, Toning is "purely" a product of environmental factors. All those valent and co-valent molecules silently swarming seeking the consummation of their bonding.

If some of this seems extraneous to you, I won't argue

The less-unimpaired by corrosion, the more potential for additional corrosion and its distracting effects. However, a very thin film of corrosion will be translucent, sometime to the point of transparency.

These old Cache holders produce a distinctive range of blue-yellow-orange-red toning which, to a great degree, mimics some Wayte Raymond/Meyhrig (sic?) toning patterns/progressions.

Early NGC gaskets also produce similar effects.
CAC rejects the former and accepts the latter.
PCGS will cross some of each.

For this particular coin, my guess is that, unless the intensity of the blue is jarring, the coin's an easy cross at either TPG.
My concern about intensity relates to my guess that the texture of the surfaces under the toning were modified by a very light abrasive cleaning at some point in the distant past. You don't have to see individual scratches to see the effect they, no matter how minute, have in toto en masse. JA and his grading crew will reject this particular piece at arms length. The texture of the light is "off".

Upon re-reading this, it becomes ever more clear to me why I sometimes admire and and sometimes disagree with @ricko's takes on this topic

MFeld

@ColonelJessup said:
Doing crack-outs for 35 years, I've seen literally thousands of these coins ((from antique (20th Century) ANACS Cache holders)) with similar color. The various generations can be identified,; I've seen previous threads here about it.

My experience as a coin cosmetologist tells me that this toning is a direct product of the gaseous emissions from the decomposition of the gasket.

The closer to original mint lustre, the greater the predisposition (likelihood) that oxidation will occur and the corrosion process accelerated into greater thin-film from perhaps transparent to translucent. (From previous posts here. I surmise @jmlanzaf can add more about this process than I can.) Seal the holder and keep out fresh oxygen. Minimize temperature variability to produce fewer gases. Etc.

Dave McCarthy of Kagins, known here as @Regulated, was the coin doctor cosmetologist conservationist who cleaned up the Saddle Ridge Horde really well, and he's proud he only lost a few coins in the process. He has a term for the propensity of a surface to bond with another surface as "grab". He stole it from the world of painting, where the texture of a canvas determined its ability to absorb various paints. Coin lustre is "purely" a product of surface texture, Toning is "purely" a product of environmental factors. All those valent and co-valent molecules silently swarming seeking the consummation of their bonding.

If some of this seems extraneous to you, I won't argue

The less-unimpaired by corrosion, the more potential for additional corrosion and its distracting effects. However, a very thin film of corrosion will be translucent, sometime to the point of transparency.

These old Cache holders produce a distinctive range of blue-yellow-orange-red toning which, to a great degree, mimics some Wayte Raymond/Meyhrig (sic?) toning patterns/progressions.

Early NGC gaskets also produce similar effects.
CAC rejects the former and accepts the latter.
PCGS will cross some of each.

For this particular coin, my guess is that, unless the intensity of the blue is jarring, the coin's an easy cross at either TPG.
My concern about intensity relates to my guess that texture of the surface under the toning were very lightly cleaned at some point in the distant past. You don't have to see individual scratches to see the effect they, no matter how minute, have in toto en masse. JA and his grading crew will reject this particular piece at arms length. The texture of the light is "off".

Upon re-reading this, it becomes ever more clear to me why I sometimes admire and and sometimes disagree with @ricko's takes on this topic

Quoting the above in a new post, in the hopes that, as deserved, it will be read more the once.

ColonelJessup

@MFeld, having been a friend and colleague for close to forty years, may understand better than most here that, while I might not be humble(d), I am pleased

The info is easy. The typing is tortuous.

BillJones

My guess is the coin was dipped or lightly cleaned at one time and stored in a coin envelope for an extended period of time.

chesterb

@MFeld said:

@ColonelJessup said:
Doing crack-outs for 35 years, I've seen literally thousands of these coins ((from antique (20th Century) ANACS Cache holders)) with similar color. The various generations can be identified,; I've seen previous threads here about it.

My experience as a coin cosmetologist tells me that this toning is a direct product of the gaseous emissions from the decomposition of the gasket.

The closer to original mint lustre, the greater the predisposition (likelihood) that oxidation will occur and the corrosion process accelerated into greater thin-film from perhaps transparent to translucent. (From previous posts here. I surmise @jmlanzaf can add more about this process than I can.) Seal the holder and keep out fresh oxygen. Minimize temperature variability to produce fewer gases. Etc.

Dave McCarthy of Kagins, known here as @Regulated, was the coin doctor cosmetologist conservationist who cleaned up the Saddle Ridge Horde really well, and he's proud he only lost a few coins in the process. He has a term for the propensity of a surface to bond with another surface as "grab". He stole it from the world of painting, where the texture of a canvas determined its ability to absorb various paints. Coin lustre is "purely" a product of surface texture, Toning is "purely" a product of environmental factors. All those valent and co-valent molecules silently swarming seeking the consummation of their bonding.

If some of this seems extraneous to you, I won't argue

The less-unimpaired by corrosion, the more potential for additional corrosion and its distracting effects. However, a very thin film of corrosion will be translucent, sometime to the point of transparency.

These old Cache holders produce a distinctive range of blue-yellow-orange-red toning which, to a great degree, mimics some Wayte Raymond/Meyhrig (sic?) toning patterns/progressions.

Early NGC gaskets also produce similar effects.
CAC rejects the former and accepts the latter.
PCGS will cross some of each.

For this particular coin, my guess is that, unless the intensity of the blue is jarring, the coin's an easy cross at either TPG.
My concern about intensity relates to my guess that texture of the surface under the toning were very lightly cleaned at some point in the distant past. You don't have to see individual scratches to see the effect they, no matter how minute, have in toto en masse. JA and his grading crew will reject this particular piece at arms length. The texture of the light is "off".

Upon re-reading this, it becomes ever more clear to me why I sometimes admire and and sometimes disagree with @ricko's takes on this topic

Quoting the above in a new post, in the hopes that, as deserved, it will be read more the once.

I need to read it more than once just to figure out what he is saying! I’m a smart person (I think) but English may not have been my strongest subject in school.

roadrunner

What causes this type of toning? Well the first step imo is to clean the original surfaces to open them up to another round of toning.

jmlanzaf

@ColonelJessup said:
Doing crack-outs for 35 years, I've seen literally thousands of these coins ((from antique (20th Century) ANACS Cache holders)) with similar color. The various generations can be identified,; I've seen previous threads here about it.

My experience as a coin cosmetologist tells me that this toning is a direct product of the gaseous emissions from the decomposition of the gasket.

The closer to original mint lustre, the greater the predisposition (likelihood) that oxidation will occur and the corrosion process accelerated into greater thin-film from perhaps transparent to translucent. (From previous posts here. I surmise @jmlanzaf can add more about this process than I can.) Seal the holder and keep out fresh oxygen. Minimize temperature variability to produce fewer gases. Etc.

Dave McCarthy of Kagins, known here as @Regulated, was the coin doctor cosmetologist conservationist who cleaned up the Saddle Ridge Horde really well, and he's proud he only lost a few coins in the process. He has a term for the propensity of a surface to bond with another surface as "grab". He stole it from the world of painting, where the texture of a canvas determined its ability to absorb various paints. Coin lustre is "purely" a product of surface texture, Toning is "purely" a product of environmental factors. All those valent and co-valent molecules silently swarming seeking the consummation of their bonding.

If some of this seems extraneous to you, I won't argue

The less-unimpaired by corrosion, the more potential for additional corrosion and its distracting effects. However, a very thin film of corrosion will be translucent, sometime to the point of transparency.

These old Cache holders produce a distinctive range of blue-yellow-orange-red toning which, to a great degree, mimics some Wayte Raymond/Meyhrig (sic?) toning patterns/progressions.

Early NGC gaskets also produce similar effects.
CAC rejects the former and accepts the latter.
PCGS will cross some of each.

For this particular coin, my guess is that, unless the intensity of the blue is jarring, the coin's an easy cross at either TPG.
My concern about intensity relates to my guess that the texture of the surfaces under the toning were modified by a very light abrasive cleaning at some point in the distant past. You don't have to see individual scratches to see the effect they, no matter how minute, have in toto en masse. JA and his grading crew will reject this particular piece at arms length. The texture of the light is "off".

Upon re-reading this, it becomes ever more clear to me why I sometimes admire and and sometimes disagree with @ricko's takes on this topic

I agree with Rick. I don't know if it's the gasket or the slab, but you see this toning all the time in ANACS slabs of the period. Something is likely decomposing/outgassing.

I recently had a set of 1878 Morgan VAMs, about 60 coins. Almost all of the UNC coins had toning similar to the bust half. The Morgans had all been slabbed around 2000 and stored tightly packed in a cardboard slab box.

Those ANACS slabs are not air tight so I've never been 100% convinced of the source of the toning. But it is so ubiquitous I've always been of the opinion that it is the holder itself.

jesbroken

@lkeigwin said:
I don't think blue toning is a product of this holder. It happens naturally to some coins, probably due to the storage environment before slabbing.

Tough die marriage and nice coin!
Lance.

I have had several Bust Halves with this blue toning, all were raw and many years ago. Here is a photo of one.
Jim

thefinn

I only see this on coins that had some wear, then a light cleaning. This type of toning doesn't occur on coins with original surfaces. It is very distinctive and takes many years to happen. Toning (tarnish) is a natural process and happens differently on the coins depending on conditions and surfaces. Some try to accelerate the process, but this is not something that can be hurried up, though blue can happen rapidly. Being a coin dealer and chemist I have done experimentation and observed lots of coins. This may have been helped along to the particular type of holder, but not caused by it.

Pnies20

Thanks for the insight friends. I plan on trying to get it in A PCGS holder when I send in my first ever submission 🤞🏼

habaraca

WOW just WOW........
Great thread, This is why I love it here.

kaz

Really interesting reading. I have this one that I bought soon after I started collecting, in an old anacs white holder. you can see some of the blue on the cap and stars, and around the rim on the rev. Thanks for the information and glad the Col is posting again!

Hydrant

I have many, many, too many Capped Bust half dollars that are damaged, low grade, cull etc. Sometimes I make up some hard boiled eggs then I dice them up and put them in a sandwich baggie with a Bust Half or two. Your coin looks very similar to the results I get after about 15 minutes of my artificial toning experiments. Well,......you asked.

Pnies20

@Hydrant said:
I have many, many, too many Capped Bust half dollars that are damaged, low grade, cull etc. Sometimes I make up some hard boiled eggs then I dice them up and put them in a sandwich baggie with a Bust Half or two. Your coin looks very similar to the results I get after about 15 minutes of my artificial toning experiments. Well,......you asked.

But do you still eat the eggs??? That’s a lot of wasted protein

chesterb

@Pnies20 said:

@Hydrant said:
I have many, many, too many Capped Bust half dollars that are damaged, low grade, cull etc. Sometimes I make up some hard boiled eggs then I dice them up and put them in a sandwich baggie with a Bust Half or two. Your coin looks very similar to the results I get after about 15 minutes of my artificial toning experiments. Well,......you asked.

But do you still eat the eggs??? That’s a lot of wasted protein

But his lipid levels are much better as a result!

Hydrant

@Pnies20 said:

But do you still eat the eggs??? That’s a lot of wasted protein

No. I never eat eggs. Or chicken. Gross.

Hydrant

@chesterb said:

But his lipid levels are much better as a result!

I never heard the term "lipid levels" before now. I looked it up. I guess it's a good thing that I don't eat eggs. Yuk! Stick to the broccoli and cauliflower. Spinach with vinegar is good too......My favorite!

I'm good to the finish
Cause I eat my spinach💪

Pnies20

@Hydrant said:

@chesterb said:

But his lipid levels are much better as a result!

I never heard the term "lipid levels" before now. I looked it up. I guess it's a good thing that I don't eat eggs. Yuk! Stick to the broccoli and cauliflower. Spinach with vinegar is good too......My favorite!

I'm good to the finish
Cause I eat my spinach💪

Cool story bro.

ricko

@ColonelJessup... Thank you for your post, and I welcome your disagreement, it is how I learn. Always respect and appreciate your input - you certainly have far more experience than I have, or will have. Cheers, RickO

relicsncoins

I have a bust half that has similar bluish toning around the edges but maybe a little thicker. When I bought this coin it was stored in the same 2X2 yellow paper envelope since it was graded in the 1980's.

Aercus

This type of toning happens frequently with the OWH holders as mentioned above. Let's look at some links:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1935-S-San-Diego-Silver-Half-Dollar-MS-63-OLD-ANA-HOLDER-Color-Toning-ANACS-/333991885358

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1880-S-Morgan-Silver-Dollar-MS-63-OLD-ANA-HOLDER-Rainbow-Toning-ANACS-/333991867969

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1898-O-Morgan-Silver-Dollar-Fatty-ANACS-holder-MS-64-Colorful-toning-3871-2-/284288908688

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1825-Bust-Half-Dollar-Old-ANACS-MS61-Holder-Undergraded-Colorfully-toned-/303508992103

Notice that the toning is often biased towards the top half of the slab. I'm not sure if the insert is responsible, or it is the gasket as others have surmised, but it is definitely a repeatable pattern with these slabs. My inkling is that the insert is involved, and may be the source of the sulfides.

Imo, the coins are still market acceptable and these coins are fine, but everyone is different

ColonelJessup

@Aercus said:
This type of toning happens frequently with the OWH holders as mentioned above. Let's look at some links:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1935-S-San-Diego-Silver-Half-Dollar-MS-63-OLD-ANA-HOLDER-Color-Toning-ANACS-/333991885358

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1880-S-Morgan-Silver-Dollar-MS-63-OLD-ANA-HOLDER-Rainbow-Toning-ANACS-/333991867969

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1898-O-Morgan-Silver-Dollar-Fatty-ANACS-holder-MS-64-Colorful-toning-3871-2-/284288908688

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1825-Bust-Half-Dollar-Old-ANACS-MS61-Holder-Undergraded-Colorfully-toned-/303508992103

Notice that the toning is often biased towards the top half of the slab. I'm not sure if the insert is responsible, or it is the gasket as others have surmised, but it is definitely a repeatable pattern with these slabs. My inkling is that the insert is involved, and may be the source of the sulfides.

Imo, the coins are still market acceptable and these coins are fine, but everyone is different

Upon consideration, especially considering your identification of that pattern, I'd now tend to incline towards the insert as a great part of the sulfur infusion.

Haven't paid attention to PCI anywhere as much as ANACS. The SEGS slab is so hard to crack because it's super-thick. The insert area, when the plastic is sealed, totally encases the paper and ink of the insert in an suffocating tomb. The adjoining sarcophagus holds the coin itself similarly isolated from the environment, of which the insert can now considered a part.

Pnies20

Finally came back! Was the grade I expected. Color matches the holder 😜

OKbustchaser

Was this by any chance an ANACS old holder crackout? Those labels often caused this type of toning.

Pnies20

@OKbustchaser said:
Was this by any chance an ANACS old holder crackout? Those labels often caused this type of toning.

😂 yes it was. It’s in the op

OKbustchaser

Whoops, only looked at your new post.

Pnies20

@OKbustchaser said:
Whoops, only looked at your new post.

I believe you didn’t look. Very educated guess!

pursuitofliberty

Good to see you got it in the PCGS holder Paul! Just right for the grade!!

Crypto

It’s secondary toning after being lightened by a diluted dip causing it be reactive again back in the day

emeraldATV

Some day I'll figure this out, and feel good about it.

But for now...com'on man !

Namvet69

Great discussion. I can feel the force and it is strong. Peace Roy

Pnies20

Trueview back and I love it.

jayPem

Nice True View! Great read...👍

ACop

Arent the Witman albums the most common blue toning source

Pnies20

@ACop said:
Arent the Witman albums the most common blue toning source

Whitman albums typically show multiple colors not just blue.