The premium for US silver eagles (they are currently asking around $33/ounce) is still excessive and very hard to understand because there is plenty of supply.
Don't dealers have to commit to a certain quantity in order to maintain their place in line? If so, might they have had to buy at elevated prices at an inopportune time and are sitting on expensive inventory?
So much of the hyperbole' in this thread concerning physical premiums is just BS from the vested banking interests. ASE premiums are nothing more than simple supply & demand for one product. The manipulation by the Comex players to control the spot price is a completely separate issue.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
.....thinking I'm going to learn something.... but just getting more and more confused!! (not taking any sides.... what ever the original subject was... just attempting a light, perhaps futile... attempt at humor!)
Original intent of thread... does seem that premiums have come down some, but I have not attempted to determine if it is due to dropping prices or other.
I've always said the physical market and premiums are highly manipulated. Pay attention.
The only manipulation in the physical market is by market participants bidding up or down what they are willing to pay or what they are willing to sell for. All free markets, for this reason, are manipulated. Do not confuse free markets with those under the influence of artificial and even false market forces.
And the smaller the market, the easier to manipulate. Glad you've finally realized the manipulation in the physical market.
You've made the claim that the physical precious metals market is "manipulated".
The burden of proof is on you to explain who has done it, and how did they do it.
Reread this thread.
No. You made the claim. Back it up. Cite the evidence. How hard can that be ?
IF, "ASE premiums are nothing more than simple supply & demand for one product."
Why are APMEX and Kitco buy prices for silver eagles only around $22.20? SD bullion at least offered $3.80 above bid.
If they were scarce, in high demand, or if they needed lower cost averaged inventory, wouldn't their buy back price be higher than $22.20 vs their $33/ounce sell price?
To me, that premium spread seems to be more like fishing for suckers, than simple supply and demand.
@jmski52 said: The premium for US silver eagles (they are currently asking around $33/ounce) is still excessive and very hard to understand because there is plenty of supply.
Don't dealers have to commit to a certain quantity in order to maintain their place in line? If so, might they have had to buy at elevated prices at an inopportune time and are sitting on expensive inventory?
So much of the hyperbole' in this thread concerning physical premiums is just BS from the vested banking interests. ASE premiums are nothing more than simple supply & demand for one product. The manipulation by the Comex players to control the spot price is a completely separate issue.
I'm not sure what you are saying here.
First, "banking interests" don't care about the price of silver.
Second, premiums for a short time are normal. Premiums that are double or triple or quadruple historical norms should NOT last for 2-3 years.
Third, if those premiums reflect demand then let it filter onto silver itself and raise the actual market price.
Clearly, those premiums are benefitting the dealers and the U.S. Mint. I don't want to make assumptions, because I would just be speculating. But maybe there's a quid pro quo on other Mint products in return for a nice fat rich premium on ASEs.
Because a premium this wide in percentage terms should NOT persist for this period of time. Maybe for a few weeks or months if silver itself were experiencing a frenzy like 1979-80 or 2011-12. We're not anywhere near those levels of speculative frenzy.
The premiums would certainly fade away if individuals could buy directly from the Mint and/or the number of dealers who deal with the Mint would greatly expand. You clearly have a monopolistic or oligopolistic market involving ASEs and the people who are always talking about conspiracies involving COMEX and silver and banks seem to not want to look at the real guilty parties: the US Mint and dealers.
Let individuals buy DIRECTLY from the Mint or open it up to more dealers.Then let's see what happens to the premiums in a few weeks or months.
@Goldminers said:
IF, "ASE premiums are nothing more than simple supply & demand for one product."
Why are APMEX and Kitco buy prices for silver eagles only around $22.20? SD bullion at least offered $3.80 above bid.
If they were scarce, in high demand, or if they needed lower cost averaged inventory, wouldn't their buy back price be higher than $22.20 vs their $33/ounce sell price?
To me, that premium spread seems to be more like fishing for suckers, than simple supply and demand.
If the financial markets tried to price something like that, the SEC, FTC, and DoJ would be on it within days.
Clearly, the government has been told to not look into this gouging because they were insistent FOR YEARS that if you bought a $50 stock and the bid-ask spread was $0.06 instead of $0.02....you were being ripped off.
I guess it's being "ripped off" when it's done by private actors but just good business when the real gouging is done by government agencies.
First, "banking interests" don't care about the price of silver.
Second, premiums for a short time are normal. Premiums that are double or triple or quadruple historical norms should NOT last for 2-3 years.
Third, if those premiums reflect demand then let it filter onto silver itself and raise the actual market price.
You've already erroneously stated that JPM's manipulation of the silver market and the $920 million fine was no big deal and only "the cost of doing business", so there's no point in debating you on this. It IS a big deal because it clearly illustrates the corruption of big banking and it's illicit meddling in the markets.
Clearly, those premiums are benefitting the dealers and the U.S. Mint. I don't want to make assumptions, because I would just be speculating. But maybe there's a quid pro quo on other Mint products in return for a nice fat rich premium on ASEs.
You totally believe what you are told by gov.com about the gold that may or may not be in Ft. Knox, but now you are willing to speculate about collaboration between the dealers and the Mint to affect premiums? The premiums can be as high as the dealers want them to be, but that doesn't mean that anyone's buying. There's nothing to debate.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
@jmski52 said:
You've already erroneously stated that JPM's manipulation of the silver market and the $920 million fine was no big >deal and only "the cost of doing business", so there's no point in debating you on this. It IS a big deal because >it clearly illustrates the corruption of big banking and it's illicit meddling in the markets.
A couple of rogue traders engaging in price discovery or price manipulation DOES NOT impact the long-term supply and demand fundamentals of the silver market, I'm sorry. They just aren't big enough. The Hunt's cornered 33% of the silver market -- how'd that work out for them ?
You totally believe what you are told by gov.com about the gold that may or may not be in Ft. Knox, but now you >are willing to speculate about collaboration between the dealers and the Mint to affect premiums? The premiums >can be as high as the dealers want them to be, but that doesn't mean that anyone's buying. There's nothing to >debate.
I've never been to gov.com. And if you're OK with the premiums, fine. It doesn't affect me as I am not a buyer but I do have friends and colleagues who buy and they think the premiums should be much lower and I agree.
Again....the government so obsessed with "gouging" on stock trades or anti-competitive Google or Microsoft practices for FREE products is saying nothing on the silver premiums.
I've always said the physical market and premiums are highly manipulated. Pay attention.
The only manipulation in the physical market is by market participants bidding up or down what they are willing to pay or what they are willing to sell for. All free markets, for this reason, are manipulated. Do not confuse free markets with those under the influence of artificial and even false market forces.
And the smaller the market, the easier to manipulate. Glad you've finally realized the manipulation in the physical market.
You've made the claim that the physical precious metals market is "manipulated".
The burden of proof is on you to explain who has done it, and how did they do it.
Reread this thread.
No. You made the claim. Back it up. Cite the evidence. How hard can that be ?
Other forum members seem to have no problem seeing it.
@blitzdude said:
It may even be harder for some to understand that many people like other assets just as much as their precious metals. I for one like to diversify. I got gutter (paper and physical), gold, bitcoins, stocks, farm land, oil, nat gas, etc, Never put all the eggs in one basket so to speak. God bless The Commonwealth! RGDS!
I've always said the physical market and premiums are highly manipulated. Pay attention.
The only manipulation in the physical market is by market participants bidding up or down what they are willing to pay or what they are willing to sell for. All free markets, for this reason, are manipulated. Do not confuse free markets with those under the influence of artificial and even false market forces.
And the smaller the market, the easier to manipulate. Glad you've finally realized the manipulation in the physical market.
You've made the claim that the physical precious metals market is "manipulated".
The burden of proof is on you to explain who has done it, and how did they do it.
Reread this thread.
No. You made the claim. Back it up. Cite the evidence. How hard can that be ?
Other forum members seem to have no problem seeing it.
Seeing what ?
You still haven't offered one iota of information to back up your claim of "manipulation" in the physical precious metals market.
Please understand that it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE for any player in metals or financial markets to influence prices or "manipulate" except over the shortest time horizons. The Fed by nature of its central banking role can certainly affect Treasury yields and some state actors like Russia can affect thinly-traded markets like palladium.
But often when folks attack banks like JP Morgan Chase they confuse the bank's investment positions (if any) with CUSTODIAL positions on behalf of other investors (retail, hedge funds, institutional buyers, etc.).
Regulators do NOT want banks like JPM speculating in commodities like metals. They might take a small position to help facilitate trading with lucrative clients but that's about it. NO bank executive would risk their capital or their employment on speculative dealings that get frowned upon by the Fed, state and federal regulators, etc.
@GoldFinger1969 said: Please understand that it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE for any player in metals or financial markets to influence prices or "manipulate" except over the shortest time horizons. The Fed by nature of its central banking role can certainly affect Treasury yields and some state actors like Russia can affect thinly-traded markets like palladium.
But often when folks attack banks like JP Morgan Chase they confuse the bank's investment positions (if any) with CUSTODIAL positions on behalf of other investors (retail, hedge funds, institutional buyers, etc.).
Regulators do NOT want banks like JPM speculating in commodities like metals. They might take a small position to help facilitate trading with lucrative clients but that's about it. NO bank executive would risk their capital or their employment on speculative dealings that get frowned upon by the Fed, state and federal regulators, etc.
I’m merely guessing, that with this rise in metals prices (and in volatility as well) that premiums are going back up. Just a wild-ass guess on my part.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
@jmski52 said:
I’m merely guessing, that with this rise in metals prices (and in volatility as well) that premiums are going back up. Just a wild-ass guess on my part.
as buyers flock to pm's (rising prices) perception of quality will be indicated by rising premiums of individual products. American eagles likely to once again rise to the top.
Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar
Yeah, well if your bank defaults, and when your bonds default you can tell us all about it. Of course, your "bonds" are really short term t-bills. You wouldn't have bought 30 year bonds, we all know that.
In the past 10 years, most of the gold coins that I've accumulated have done very well, as a matter of fact.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
@jmski52 said:
Yeah, well if your bank defaults, and when your bonds default you can tell us all about it. Of course, your "bonds" are really short term t-bills. You wouldn't have bought 30 year bonds, we all know that.
In the past 10 years, most of the gold coins that I've accumulated have done very well, as a matter of fact.
Comments
The premium for US silver eagles (they are currently asking around $33/ounce) is still excessive and very hard to understand because there is plenty of supply.
Don't dealers have to commit to a certain quantity in order to maintain their place in line? If so, might they have had to buy at elevated prices at an inopportune time and are sitting on expensive inventory?
So much of the hyperbole' in this thread concerning physical premiums is just BS from the vested banking interests. ASE premiums are nothing more than simple supply & demand for one product. The manipulation by the Comex players to control the spot price is a completely separate issue.
I knew it would happen.
I think I have entered..... The Twilight Zone. (Cue the music).....
..... stuck on a Merry-Go-Round..... endlessly going around and around.... but never really going anywhere!
(but I keep reading this tread once in awhile!)
.....thinking I'm going to learn something.... but just getting more and more confused!! (not taking any sides.... what ever the original subject was... just attempting a light, perhaps futile... attempt at humor!)
Original intent of thread... does seem that premiums have come down some, but I have not attempted to determine if it is due to dropping prices or other.
No. You made the claim. Back it up. Cite the evidence. How hard can that be ?
You made the claim. Back it up. Cite the evidence. How hard can that be ?
jmski<-----------waiting with baited breath for the usual non-response.
I knew it would happen.
IF, "ASE premiums are nothing more than simple supply & demand for one product."
Why are APMEX and Kitco buy prices for silver eagles only around $22.20? SD bullion at least offered $3.80 above bid.
If they were scarce, in high demand, or if they needed lower cost averaged inventory, wouldn't their buy back price be higher than $22.20 vs their $33/ounce sell price?
To me, that premium spread seems to be more like fishing for suckers, than simple supply and demand.
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
I'm not sure what you are saying here.
First, "banking interests" don't care about the price of silver.
Second, premiums for a short time are normal. Premiums that are double or triple or quadruple historical norms should NOT last for 2-3 years.
Third, if those premiums reflect demand then let it filter onto silver itself and raise the actual market price.
Clearly, those premiums are benefitting the dealers and the U.S. Mint. I don't want to make assumptions, because I would just be speculating. But maybe there's a quid pro quo on other Mint products in return for a nice fat rich premium on ASEs.
Because a premium this wide in percentage terms should NOT persist for this period of time. Maybe for a few weeks or months if silver itself were experiencing a frenzy like 1979-80 or 2011-12. We're not anywhere near those levels of speculative frenzy.
The premiums would certainly fade away if individuals could buy directly from the Mint and/or the number of dealers who deal with the Mint would greatly expand. You clearly have a monopolistic or oligopolistic market involving ASEs and the people who are always talking about conspiracies involving COMEX and silver and banks seem to not want to look at the real guilty parties: the US Mint and dealers.
Let individuals buy DIRECTLY from the Mint or open it up to more dealers.Then let's see what happens to the premiums in a few weeks or months.
I'd wager it falls to 10-15% or so.
If the financial markets tried to price something like that, the SEC, FTC, and DoJ would be on it within days.
Clearly, the government has been told to not look into this gouging because they were insistent FOR YEARS that if you bought a $50 stock and the bid-ask spread was $0.06 instead of $0.02....you were being ripped off.
I guess it's being "ripped off" when it's done by private actors but just good business when the real gouging is done by government agencies.
First, "banking interests" don't care about the price of silver.
Second, premiums for a short time are normal. Premiums that are double or triple or quadruple historical norms should NOT last for 2-3 years.
Third, if those premiums reflect demand then let it filter onto silver itself and raise the actual market price.
You've already erroneously stated that JPM's manipulation of the silver market and the $920 million fine was no big deal and only "the cost of doing business", so there's no point in debating you on this. It IS a big deal because it clearly illustrates the corruption of big banking and it's illicit meddling in the markets.
Clearly, those premiums are benefitting the dealers and the U.S. Mint. I don't want to make assumptions, because I would just be speculating. But maybe there's a quid pro quo on other Mint products in return for a nice fat rich premium on ASEs.
You totally believe what you are told by gov.com about the gold that may or may not be in Ft. Knox, but now you are willing to speculate about collaboration between the dealers and the Mint to affect premiums? The premiums can be as high as the dealers want them to be, but that doesn't mean that anyone's buying. There's nothing to debate.
I knew it would happen.
A couple of rogue traders engaging in price discovery or price manipulation DOES NOT impact the long-term supply and demand fundamentals of the silver market, I'm sorry. They just aren't big enough. The Hunt's cornered 33% of the silver market -- how'd that work out for them ?
I've never been to gov.com. And if you're OK with the premiums, fine. It doesn't affect me as I am not a buyer but I do have friends and colleagues who buy and they think the premiums should be much lower and I agree.
Again....the government so obsessed with "gouging" on stock trades or anti-competitive Google or Microsoft practices for FREE products is saying nothing on the silver premiums.
I just find that very curious.
Other forum members seem to have no problem seeing it.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Get a life and stop stalking me already. THKS
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
Seeing what ?
You still haven't offered one iota of information to back up your claim of "manipulation" in the physical precious metals market.
10 years later and everyone is still firmly on their same sides i see
Please understand that it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE for any player in metals or financial markets to influence prices or "manipulate" except over the shortest time horizons. The Fed by nature of its central banking role can certainly affect Treasury yields and some state actors like Russia can affect thinly-traded markets like palladium.
But often when folks attack banks like JP Morgan Chase they confuse the bank's investment positions (if any) with CUSTODIAL positions on behalf of other investors (retail, hedge funds, institutional buyers, etc.).
Regulators do NOT want banks like JPM speculating in commodities like metals. They might take a small position to help facilitate trading with lucrative clients but that's about it. NO bank executive would risk their capital or their employment on speculative dealings that get frowned upon by the Fed, state and federal regulators, etc.
Fact or Fiction?
Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar
PMs are doing terribly to start the year. Prices down and premiums almost nonexistent now
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
From about 1 year ago. Spot is down $5 and ASE premium is down $9. What is the narrative now?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Buying more for less. An exercise in futility, I guess.
What was the premium a year ago and what is it today ?
Whoever Mike Campbell is, BTW, he doesn't understand what a custodial bank does.
ASE's are a great buy if you own a shop . Nice to double your money on a quick flip. no shortage of dummies in the world
According to this screenshots shown above, the premium was $14 a year ago and $10.50 now.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
I’m merely guessing, that with this rise in metals prices (and in volatility as well) that premiums are going back up. Just a wild-ass guess on my part.
I knew it would happen.
as buyers flock to pm's (rising prices) perception of quality will be indicated by rising premiums of individual products. American eagles likely to once again rise to the top.
Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar
What have precious metals done in the last ten years?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Premiums on silver are starting to inch up again.
What have precious metals done in the last ten years?
They have never defaulted.
I knew it would happen.
Pretty lame narrative when all one has are non sequiturrs.
The oak tree in my back yard hasn't defaulted either.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Yeah, well if your bank defaults, and when your bonds default you can tell us all about it. Of course, your "bonds" are really short term t-bills. You wouldn't have bought 30 year bonds, we all know that.
In the past 10 years, most of the gold coins that I've accumulated have done very well, as a matter of fact.
I knew it would happen.
.> @cohodk said:
nor has narcissism
Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar
Your oak tree isn't a transacted financial asset like precious metals have been for 5,000+ years.
I love these responses. Lol
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
I'd surmise it's been around longer than the chunck of silver in jmskis piggy bank.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Nor hypocrisy.
Premium back to $13....never let a good crisis go to waste.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
The gold perhaps, the gutter not so much. RGDS!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
Premium at $14. For the retailers...have you seen increased interesti n silver over the last 2 weeks?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Silence is deafening.
Premiums at the OP retailer are still at $14, which is a decline in the premium percentage.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
The silence is golden.
Perhaps the dead horse is refusing to rise? (give it time, I'm sure it may struggle to it's feet again!)
Eventually.
The OP retailer is offering barbers at about 40x. Are there actually any buyers at that price?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
ASE premiums on the move and once again making fools of those talking "gutter."
Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar
Don't forget to SELL some this time. LOL!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
So if someone bought an ASE a month ago, how much could they sell it for today?
If someone bought SLV a month ago, how much could they sell it for today?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
SLV has a slight 30 day edge over ASEs. And that makes ASEs gutter? LOL
And when the ETFs are caught with nowhere near the silver they have sold as paper we will see where the true gutter lies.
Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar
@cohodk said:
» show previous quotes
So if someone bought an ASE a month ago, how much could they sell it for today?
If someone bought SLV a month ago, how much could they sell it for today?
SLV has a slight 30 day edge over ASEs. And that makes ASEs gutter? LOL
Is that pre-tax?
Cue up the virtue signallers, etc., but that is the big difference to some.
$2005 Per Ounce today. I hear it's gonna drop, big drop, sell now.
I don't believe it, but I'm hearing this
Would not surprise me if it drops..... probably due for little slam down. but I think the trend overall will still keep climbing.