1909S-VDB Is It Real, Or Fake? Things About It Don't Look Right.

MarkW63

I'm not going make a call on this one, but I will point out what don't look right to me about it.
I've included a picture from PCGS of a genuine one to compare with.
Experts PLEASE!!

Here is the ebay listing,
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-S-VDB-Lincoln-Wheat-Penny-Unc-Red-Brown-BU-High-Grade-MS-Nice-Key-Date/384069698624?hash=item596c568440:g:EmQAAOSwG6RgY7tm

Here is the images of the one in the listing,

(1) What looks questionable to me is the detail around both ends of the bow tie.
(2) look at the detail at center of the ear, then look at the sharp point in the upside down v leading up from the neck to the ear, its not pointing correctly, its to sharp of a point?
(3) Something odd about all the marks on cheek?
(4) Look at the rolls beneath the chin as it rolls down to the neck?

Here is the PCGS images.

anablep

I don't like the mint mark but I'm not well-versed enough in this series.

PerryHall

Fake. The mintmark is all wrong among other problems.

MsMorrisine

the first thing about it was the mint mark

BillJones

The mint mark looks like a snake. It should be fat in the middle.

DelawareDoons

Yeah the MM is way off.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

MarkW63

As far as the ebay listing goes, I'm now expecting the wind to blow and POOF the listing will disappear. Its kind of magical really

MarkW63

please don't over look my other recent forum post about a Philly Mint VDB! Its looks totally fake to me and he's asking over $400.00 for it, I guess of its overall condition.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1054928/a-1909-vdb-ebay-counterfeit-not-an-s-vdb/p1?new=1

WAYNEAS

It is a nice looking FAKE!
Wayne

MarkW63

The lock of hair at the forehead doesn't have the correct line (flow).
Here is the one on ebay

Here is the one from the PCGS image.

MarkW63

The main lines of details that doesn't look right.

Ebay Listed one,

PCGS Pictured

mark_dak

Not an expert on these and have never owned one. I always assumed most of the problem 1909-S VDB Lincolns are mint mark added type. Are there that many actual fake coins out there? Seems easier to add an "S" than create a fake cent. That S does appear wrong to me.

MarkW63

@mark_dak said:
Not an expert on these and have never owned one. I always assumed most of the problem 1909-S VDB Lincolns are mint mark added type. Are there that many actual fake coins out there? Seems easier to add an "S" than create a fake cent. That S does appear wrong to me.

I've been digging into the 09S-VDB's for around a year now, and finding collective information from as many reliable sources as reasonable. The general consensus for this coin is that its the Number one counterfeited US coin!
Some has estimated that with this coin its pretty safe to say that there is ??Likely?? more counterfeits in public circulation than there is of the genuine coin.

daltex

Thank you for posting a picture before eBay removed the listing.

LanceNewmanOCC

the mm on this coin has the die chip in the upper loop of the S. not something you see on counterfeits very often. the v.d.b. looks good.

looks like i'm going against the crowd but since when is that new. lol

if it is bad, i'd say an altered 09-s before an outright counterfeit since the 09-s also has the die chip in the upper loop of the S. although that die chip does look big when blowing up the images but it also pixelates too much.

@MarkW63
more counterfeits in public circulation than there is of the genuine coin.

i'd say this for MANY better-date coins, foreign and usa.

291fifth

Forget about buying raw 1909-S VDB cents. Good quality struck counterfeits have been around for decades.

ricko

This one is tricky IMO, but the MM seems slightly misplaced and the E in Liberty is strange.... Not that I would be purchasing a raw '09 S V.D.B.. Cheers, RickO

lkeigwin

Looks genuine to me. Harshly cleaned but legit.
Lance.

MarkW63

@lkeigwin said:
Looks genuine to me. Harshly cleaned but legit.
Lance.

What about all the details around the head,
Like those three extra lines in the corner of Lincoln's eye?
The longer looking chin with far less beard rolls?
What about that knife looking cut at the ear lobe?
And the incorrect lines in the locks of hair? (an Elvis Curl vs a Lincoln curl)
Notice the 2 creases on the face next to Lincoln's mouth how the one from the nose extends down beside the one at the mouth?
Was there that much difference between the obverse die sets that were used other than the MM?

Here are the two pictures that I used to compare them.

The ebay listed coin.

The PCGS coin.

MarkW63

@291fifth said:
Forget about buying raw 1909-S VDB cents. Good quality struck counterfeits have been around for decades.

Keep in mind that no one here is looking at buying these coins. I got burned on one of these about a year ago, I've sense replaced it with a slabbed one, but I was left with this obsession of learning to discerning them. So, now when I find a questionable one listed on ebay I post them on the forum for discussion and if the experts here sees one that they deem to be a FAKE or counterfeit then the someone in the know is making the ebay contacts and getting the listings pulled.
So, If I can help get these off ebay then Its my contribution to the hobby.
Thanks for taking the time to take a look and post a comment.

CalifornianKing

Looks cleaned. Am not experinced so I cant comment about the authenticity.

lkeigwin

If you want to get good at detecting counterfeit S-VDB's study mintmark shape, location, die chip, VDB shape, and dot positions. 99% of the time that's where counterfeiting comes from.

Don't get lost in the weeds over tiny differences in the portrait. Often it's a matter of lighting, coin orientation, wear, strike, etc.

Here's one of mine graded 65RD. I'll bet you could find portrait particulars that look suspect.
Lance.

telephoto1

I'm with Lance. MM and VDB look ok to me. Genuine but cleaned at some point. I'm thinking it's a details holder crackout.

nwcoast

I’m not an expert on these though I did get somewhat lucky in that a raw one I purchased a few years back did turn out to be genuine and holdered by our host.

The one pictured by the OP initially raised my red flags with the mintmark.
In comparing it to mine, the mint Mark now doesn’t look that far off. I’d like to see better close ups on the mm and it does look like that key the die chip is present. Further analysis of the other above mentioned discrepancies would be helpful.

Here’s mine- for comparison and fun.

MarkW63

@lkeigwin said:
If you want to get good at detecting counterfeit S-VDB's study mintmark shape, location, die chip, VDB shape, and dot positions. 99% of the time that's where counterfeiting comes from.

Don't get lost in the weeds over tiny differences in the portrait. Often it's a matter of lighting, coin orientation, wear, strike, etc.

Here's one of mine graded 65RD. I'll bet you could find portrait particulars that look suspect.
Lance.

Nope!
The bow tie on yours looks correct!
The lock of hair at the forehead looks correct!
The corner of the eye is correct!
The ear lobe doesn't have that scissor cut look!
The facial folds (lines) from the nose to the one at the mouth are correct (more separated)!

Here is a close up of the Ebay listed coins MM (well its as good as I can get)

MarkW63

When I first saw this one I knew it more questionable about possibly being a fake or counterfeit.
But, its made a good conversation piece.

Bruce7789

I'm glad the most of the coins I'm collecting in MS 65 Rd are commons and not worth counterfeiting, but still only buying encapsulated coins. I sometimes wonder about if there are significant grading differences between TPG's because I'm going to have to have PCGS change out some capsules to keep the set consistent. Don't have to, just want it all the same when I put it up for auction for $600,000.00....

LanceNewmanOCC

@Bruce7789 said:
I'm glad the most of the coins I'm collecting in MS 65 Rd are commons and not worth counterfeiting

.
unforuntaely, it doesn't stop them from doing so. they've posted sites here in the past that had them listed for sale raw. fwiw.

Bruce7789

Yeah, I just read an article further up the page on the counterfeit slabs. Going to have to start paying closer attention. Did buy a raw coin yesterday, but have dealt with the dealer for years. He agreed before I bought it to buy it back including PCGS fees and shipping if it turns out to be faked. His source for the coin was a collector that he'd been supplying for years until he just bought the entire collection from his estate.

mr1931S

Looks genuine to me but not one that I would buy. Looks cleaned.

10ofSwords

1922 "Plain" Lincoln cents are even worse.