How do you define rare?

Zoins

After researching a bunch of coins and medals including the following, I've come up with my definition of rare.

Basically, it's something where you have a Full Census vs. Condition Census of specimens. For my own research, this likely means less than 10-12 specimens, 20 is probably the max. Above that, my cataloging interest will drop off, but others may still have interest.

Some of my threads include:

• 1854-S Quarter Eagle - https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1054770/the-ultra-rare-1854-s-quarter-eagle-12-known-246-mintage#latest
• 1913 Liberty Nickel - https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1040148/1913-liberty-nickel-pedigrees
• 1920 Wilson Dollar - https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1008869/1920-gold-wilson-dollar-manila-mint-opening-hk-1031#latest

What does rare mean to you?

wev

I'm selling and you're buying

Zoins

By the way, the Sheldon Scale indicates:

• Rare: 31-75
• Very Rare: 13-30
• Extremely Rare: 4-12

https://www.pcgs.com/books/silver-dollars/chapter02/5#

Walkerfan

Something that is both absolutely and conditionally scarce (rare).

Throw in some tremendous eye appeal and you have a good recipe going there.

ShaunBC5

To me, rare usually means I want it, but don't have it (or can't afford it).
Under 50 seems pretty rare to me on most stuff. My mind usually says things like "if there's less than 1 per state, that's not very many."

MidLifeCrisis

Well, we have these rarity scales...

The Sheldon Scale
R-1 Common
R-2 Not So Common
R-3 Scarce
R-4 Very Scarce (population est at 76-200)
R-5 Rare (31-75)
R-6 Very Rare (13-30)
R-7 Extremely rare (4-12)
R-8 Unique or Nearly So (1,2 or 3)

More specifically, there are 9 levels on the Sheldon-Breen rarity scale. The numbers listed below are given as estimates:
R-8: This is a unique coin; only 1 exists
R-7 High: A coin that's excessively rare; 2 to 3 exist
R-7 Low: An extremely rare coin with 4 to 12 remaining known
R-6: A very rare coin with 13 to 30 known specimens
R-5: 31 to 75 coins exist, classifying it as rare
R-4: A very scarce coin with 76 to 200 examples left
R-3: With 201 to 500 estimated pieces, this is a scarce coin
R-2: A coin that is not common, with 501 to 1250 coins in existence
R-1: With at least 1251 coins remaining, this is a common coin

The Universal Rarity Scale by Q. David Bowers
URS-0 None known
URS-1 1 known, unique
URS-2 2 known
URS-3 3 or 4 known
URS-4 5 to 8 known
URS-5 9 to 16 known
URS-6 17 to 32 known
URS-7 33 to 64 known
URS-8 65 to 125 known
URS-9 126 to 250 known
URS-10 251 to 500 known URS-11 501 to 1,000 known
URS-12 1,001 to 2,000 known
URS-13 2,001 to 4,000 known
URS-14 4,001 to 8,000 known
URS-15 8,001 to 16,000 known
URS-16 16,001 to 32,000 known
URS-17 32,001 to 65,000 known
URS-18 65,001 to 125,000 known
URS-19 125,001 to 250,000 known
URS-20 250,001 to 500,000 known
etc.

As @Zoins noted above, the Sheldon Scale defines rare a no more than 75 known. I'm good with that definition.

AuldFartte

Rare? Hmm ... probably a coin that is so wonderful that I can't possibly afford it
Seriously though, I go with the Sheldon Scale.

keets

less than 75 known.

yspsales

Under 100 usually gets my attention.

Under 50, wait for eye appeal.

Under 20 is an automatic buy.

These would be ANACS, NGC, PCGS combined pops in graded non detail holders.

Typically ignore slabbed detail and raw coins on the basis if they were problem free, they would be in one of the three TPG holders.

WCC

I agree with the OP but I don't extend this to specialization (die varieties, errors, "full strikes") as there is nothing out of the ordinary in it.

As for condition rarity, I don't consider it meaningful in the context most US collectors do either. Practically every coin outside of NCLT and the most recent proofs are "rare" in some grade or quality.

wrighty

@Zoins said:
After researching a bunch of coins and medals including the following, I've come up with my definition of rare.

Basically, it's something where you have a Full Census vs. Condition Census of specimens. For my own research, this likely means less than 10-12 specimens, 20 is probably the max. Above that, my cataloging interest will drop off, but others may still have interest.

Some of my threads include:

• 1854-S Quarter Eagle - https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1054770/the-ultra-rare-1854-s-quarter-eagle-12-known-246-mintage#latest
• 1913 Liberty Nickel - https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1040148/1913-liberty-nickel-pedigrees
• 1920 Wilson Dollar - https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1008869/1920-gold-wilson-dollar-manila-mint-opening-hk-1031#latest

What does rare mean to you?

Does condition rarity ever trump absolute rarity? The easiest example may be the 1893-s Morgan Dollar , Bowers estimates 10,000 surviving pieces but only 1 is graded MS 67, 0 in 66, and 5 in 65.

MilesWaits

Anything modern from the Mint that is on back order, currently unavailable or sold out.
For approximately three months, anyway. After that, it will be the next great thing.

markelman1125

I think there are category’s, impossible to find is ultra rare such as a 1913 v nickel , vary hard to find is vary rare such as a 1916 standing liberty quarter, and hard to find as Just rare such as a 1909 s vdb to a high grade 19th century proof dime . Also I think demand should be taken into account as there may be a lot but everyone wants it so it’s all sold out and hard to find. It’s an interesting topic to discuss.

keets

Does condition rarity ever trump absolute rarity?

if you are fortunate enough to find the highest grade example of an absolutely rare coin, less than my 75 known, then yes. that is the best of both parameters.

Lazybones

If you do an ebay search and there are thousands, it's not rare. As in: LQQK! RARE circulated 1893 Columbian Silver Half Dollar!

ctf_error_coins

There are some extremely rare (Unique) coins that almost anyone can afford.

Most anyone can have super eye appealing unique coinage at any income level, you just have to know where to look

Smudge

Survival in all grades,
Under 500 scarce
Under 50 rare
Under 5 very rare
1 unique.

But, popularity wins, and when you throw in condition rarity it gets complicated, so just get good looking coins you like.

BryceM

If I want one, can afford one, and can't find one, it's rare.

yspsales

I have a some new and old niches that interest me.

Errors
Varieties
Toners
VAM's
Modern mint and proofs

One is always good, but when you can marry condition rarity and scarcity you are cooking with gas.

BillyKingsley

After more than 10 years on the forum, and in the hobby, I consider something rare if I've never seen it or heard of it before.

It varies by hobby. The longer you are in a hobby the easier it is to determine what's rare and unusual. I'm approaching 30 years in my main hobby, have built the largest known collection, and still making new discoveries in the primary (favorite) area/era. The new discoveries are always rare...they must be or else they wouldn't be unknown. Generally speaking they were only available regionally, which also always equals rarity.

Nic

@BryceM said:
If I want one, can afford one, and can't find one, it's rare.

Well said. Especially for over 10 years.

BillJones

Less than 10 known.

"Rare" is an overused word in the "Rare Coin Business." "Condition rarity" is a qualifier that has merit, but can also be over used.

MFeld

@BillJones said:
Less than 10 known.

"Rare" is an overused word in the "Rare Coin Business." "Condition rarity" is a qualifier that has merit, but can also be over used.

I agree that "rare" is overused, but 10 or fewer seems considerably too low to qualify for "rare". As just two examples, you don't consider 1804 Dollars or 1907 Ultra High Reliefs to be rare?

BillJones

I agree that "rare" is overused, but 10 or fewer seems considerably too low to qualify for "rare". As just two examples, you don't consider 1804 Dollars or 1907 Ultra High Reliefs to be rare?

It all depends upon how many people are chasing them. Back in the 1970s, a small coin dealer, newspaper writer and Sunday news paper coin collecting columnist, Harold Flarty, had some dies made of historic site in Morristown, New Jersey and used them to over strike the reverses of cents. He sold them at his table at the small New Jersey shows.

He also used those dies to strike pieces on .999 silver cent-sized planchets. The mintages for those ranged from 5 to 10 pieces. Since no one probably wants them, would you call them "rare?"

Sure, the 1804 Dollars and the Ultra High relief coins are "rare" because they are worth millions, but if no body cares about an item, would you call it "rare?'

oih82w8

Rare? Anything I cannot afford...which is not a large leap anyway.

TurtleCat

Rare means not cooked well enough, lol. I would go with a less scientific/precise way of describing rare: not easily obtained and opportunities don't come around very often. The cool part is that can apply in many contexts:

1. Absolute - no one can easily obtain and opportunities don't come around often
2. Relative - for a specific individual it's difficult to obtain and opportunities are few and far between
3. Casual - difficult to obtain but opportunities are present or easy to obtain but opportunities are rare

I'll likely never have an absolute rarity in coin terms. I have several relatively rare coins for my socio-economic situation. And there is one set of medals I collect of my hometown that are very rare to show up. I've snatched all 4 that have shown up on eBay in the last several years all at different prices. Haven't seen one in months. And those are the only 4 I've ever seen in original packaging.

ReadyFireAim

A rare coin is probably the ugliest one in your collection.
Something you'd have to explain to a non-collector about why it's in your set.

WildIdea

If I can’t find one and I’m not sure I’ll ever get the chance to based on my outlets, resources or connections. Individual results may vary.

SkyMan

I can go with the Sheldon scale.

Varieties do make an interesting subspecies. I just finished a deal where there were 1,080 of the items created. Probably all of them still exist. Within that 1,080 there were 48 of a specific variety that has arguably much more pizzazz, and I purchased one of those 48. I got it for a good price, and it has an unquestionable provenance trail too.

MFeld

@BillJones said:

I agree that "rare" is overused, but 10 or fewer seems considerably too low to qualify for "rare". As just two examples, you don't consider 1804 Dollars or 1907 Ultra High Reliefs to be rare?

It all depends upon how many people are chasing them. Back in the 1970s, a small coin dealer, newspaper writer and Sunday news paper coin collecting columnist, Harold Flarty, had some dies made of historic site in Morristown, New Jersey and used them to over strike the reverses of cents. He sold them at his table at the small New Jersey shows.

He also used those dies to strike pieces on .999 silver cent-sized planchets. The mintages for those ranged from 5 to 10 pieces. Since no one probably wants them, would you call them "rare?"

Sure, the 1804 Dollars and the Ultra High relief coins are "rare" because they are worth millions, but if no body cares about an item, would you call it "rare?'

I don’t think “rare” has anything to do with how many people are chasing them. That’s changing the subject to demand and how difficult they are to obtain at any given time. If each and every 1804 dollar were to appear for sale on the market at the same time, that wouldn’t make them less “rare”, only more available, until sold.

Regarding the items you mentioned with mintages of 5 to 10 pieces, yes, they’re rare. And that doesn’t change, just because there’s little or no demand for them.

The 1804 dollars and Ultra High Reliefs aren’t “rare because they are worth millions”. Rather, they sell for millions because they’re rare and the subject of high demand, relative to their availability.

WCC

@wrighty said:

Does condition rarity ever trump absolute rarity? The easiest example may be the 1893-s Morgan Dollar , Bowers estimates 10,000 surviving pieces but only 1 is graded MS 67, 0 in 66, and 5 in 65.

There is nothing unusual in the example you provided. At minimum, there must be thousands with a similar quality distribution though most are not US.

Aercus

If I can't find an example currently for sale or auction, at any grade, it's rare to me. As a quantitative benchmark, less than 100 known for a date/mintmark combo certainly works.

sellitstore

For obsolete bank notes, 5-10 known has traditionally been considered "rare" (R6) and fewer than 5 known
"very rare" (R7). Rarity 5, with 11-25 known, is considered "very scarce".

BuffaloIronTail

RARE

When a coin costs BOO KU money to buy.

Pete

WCC

@markelman1125 said:
I think there are category’s, impossible to find is ultra rare such as a 1913 v nickel , vary hard to find is vary rare such as a 1916 standing liberty quarter, and hard to find as Just rare such as a 1909 s vdb to a high grade 19th century proof dime . Also I think demand should be taken into account as there may be a lot but everyone wants it so it’s all sold out and hard to find. It’s an interesting topic to discuss.

The 1913 LHN is the only coin in your examples that is even close to being difficult to buy.

All of the others are easy to extremely easy. Right now, Collectors Corner has seven MS-64 or higher 1916 SLQ, including two MS-66. Far more 09-S VDB up to MS-65 For 19th century proof dimes, depends upon the date but I'm confident that at minimum, every single date 1858 and later is available from some dealer right now or on eBay. And if it isn't, it will be within a few days or weeks at most.

291fifth

Rare: An item that is not readily available even if the money to purchase it is.

Peace_dollar88

According to ebay listings 1881-s morgans and 1922 peace dollars.

Zoins

@MFeld said:

@BillJones said:
Less than 10 known.

"Rare" is an overused word in the "Rare Coin Business." "Condition rarity" is a qualifier that has merit, but can also be over used.

I agree that "rare" is overused, but 10 or fewer seems considerably too low to qualify for "rare". As just two examples, you don't consider 1804 Dollars or 1907 Ultra High Reliefs to be rare?

I would still consider 1804 dollars rare with Bill's requirement because I rate the different classes separately. Class I is the most desirable as the were minted for official US use, though for diplomatic presentation, not actual currency. The unique Class II dollar is in the NNC and Class III dollars are more like collector-ordered patterns to me. I wouldn't group them together.

That being said, 20ish is my limit so both would be rare for my standard, though at the very outer limit. When cataloging 20 specimens, it just feels like a lot. Even looking at a census of 20 specimens feels like a lot. Of course, with the 1907 UHR, you can break them up as seen here.

https://coins.ha.com/itm/high-relief-double-eagles/double-eagles/1907-20-ultra-high-relief-normal-edge-lettering-pr68-ngc-jd-3-low-r7-pcgs-9131-/a/1327-3802.s?

jesbroken

jmlanzaf

I'm really surprised at the number of people who have a sliding scale on "rare" based on demand. That makes something common "rare" if enough people want it and something that is unique to be common if not enough people want it.

Baley

@BryceM said:
If I want one, can afford one, and can't find one, it's rare.

This. My white whale is an 1822 25/50 C. Quarter (and 1806 B8, and a half dozen other R6+ varieties)... Not a "nice one" in a high grade pedigree old green PCGS slab with CAC from a top tier dealer or auction, and not a nasty cleaned damaged Ebay museum one, but an original surface VG or Fine with minor problems (not affecting the reverse) that nets the price down to AG. Rare coin.

jesbroken

In all seriousness and in my opinion, rarity in coinage is due to scarcity. Lack of funds actually do not make an item scarce only its unavailability does that. If someone bought up the majority of a large coin issue and refused to make it available to the public for purchase, then that very large issued coin may be considered scarce due to unavailability. As I said, this is my opinion.
Jim

pursuitofliberty

I think of Rare being when there are less than 50 examples extant. Doesn't matter if no one wants them and I can find one cheap, they are still technically Rare.

I also think of conditionally Rare when it is certain the example is known to be within the top 10 examples that can not be classified as Rare otherwise.

Zoins

Conditionally rare is a tricky slope for me.

What if there's one in MS67 but 1000 in MS66?

I tend to think of conditionally rare when there are less than 20 in MS.

pursuitofliberty

@Zoins said:
Conditionally rare is a tricky slope for me.

What if there's one in MS67 but 1000 in MS66?

I tend to think of conditionally rare when there are less than 20 in MS.

Well in that case, the 67 is Rare ... the 66's, not so much!

.

All joking aside, I agree. I don't think that is a case where anyone can be certain the example is known to be within the top 10 examples, whether in 66 or 67 plastic

MarkInDavis

Warm in the center but definitely red, not pink.

Zoins

@MarkInDavis said:
Warm in the center but definitely red, not pink.

Medium rare.

At R6, there are 21 to 75 specimens, so not quite meeting my requirement for rarity at a max of 20

3keepSECRETif2rDEAD

...True Rare is cool to the touch red in the center fellas...no doubt

PerryHall

Sometimes a token or coin is very rare but the number of people who want to own it is even rarer.

JimTyler