@daltex said “ I guess I'm on an island all by myself. I say a rare coin is one that (base metal) sells for more than face value, otherwise more than bullion value.”
That is an interesting counterpoint to those who only assign the term to coins with a dozen or two examples.
This may in fact be close to the way the term is “colloquially” used.
This thread came to mind when I read one of the featured PCGS Articles from this week. It described the newly holdered New Orleans minted Double Eagle from the 1850s sourced from Europe as "rare" despite something like 10,000 having been made and survivors into the three digits.
@daltex said:
I guess I'm on an island all by myself. I say a rare coin is one that (base metal) sells for more than face value, otherwise more than bullion value.
Under that definition, among other coins, Morgan and Peace Dollars, wheat cents, pre-1933 gold coins and ASE’s would qualify. You consider coins rare, even when there are millions of them?
Sure. I think that all the coins you listed are exactly what people mean when they say "I collect rare coins." It is the cutoff between those who set aside one of each America the Beautiful Quarter they happen to come across and those who take the huge step of walking into a coin shop, or show, or auction. I think the difference between those who save from change only and those who go to a coin dealer and pay 50c for the Massachusetts Statehood Quarter to complete their sets is bigger than that between the latter and a guy who is working on an 18th century date set.
@daltex said:
I guess I'm on an island all by myself. I say a rare coin is one that (base metal) sells for more than face value, otherwise more than bullion value.
Under that definition, among other coins, Morgan and Peace Dollars, wheat cents, pre-1933 gold coins and ASE’s would qualify. You consider coins rare, even when there are millions of them?
Sure. I think that all the coins you listed are exactly what people mean when they say "I collect rare coins." It is the cutoff between those who set aside one of each America the Beautiful Quarter they happen to come across and those who take the huge step of walking into a coin shop, or show, or auction. I think the difference between those who save from change only and those who go to a coin dealer and pay 50c for the Massachusetts Statehood Quarter to complete their sets is bigger than that between the latter and a guy who is working on an 18th century date set.
When someone makes this claim, it's an exaggeration and nothing more.
Dealers and auction firms use this terminology all the time and it's marketing, nothing more. If anyone looks at how dealers call their shop or firm, many have a name such as "John Doe Rare Coins". Presumably, it's because admitting what they sell is common wouldn't be as good for business, would it? I've yet to see a coin shop call itself "John Doe Common as a Grain of Sand on the Beach Coins" which would usually be a lot more accurate.
There is nothing wrong with collecting coins that are not rare. Everyone can't and most do not want to anyway, as rarity alone doesn't interest hardly anyone, especially when using current US marketing terminology. Concurrently, the way rarity is generally used now in US collecting isn't accurate either. It's not far from all students being above average.
Am I the only one who finds it a little funny that anyone even cares? That could be said of some things I find important too, but this seems like such a relative thing that would never have any real meaning. "This coin is rare"....Ok. You would never act on that label without researching the actual mintage, remaining specimens known, etc. There is no special market implication to that term without the underlying research/understanding/census, etc. You would always need to use a qualifier...the "1909 S VDB IS rare....when you consider mintage compared to other coins in the series", etc.
Rare takes on different meanings depending upon how it s being used. Rare has a meaning in absolute terms but it also has meaning in terms of surviving condition. And even within condition rarity, there are reasons for splintering rarity further just based on the physical characteristics of that surviving population. Unmolested coins may be true condition rarities that are not captured by population reports.
Rare is a relative term that should really not be defined by conventional wisdom given the history associated with this hobby to basically resist change predicated on objectivity.
Good luck in rehashing a question often asked that produces the same antiquated as well as subjective outcome.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
@Zoins
1. Very Common. ranges from every coin struck down to 1,000,000
2. Common. from 1,000,000 down to 100,000
3. Scarce. from 100,000 down to 10,000
4. Very Scarce. from 10,000 down to 1,000
5. Rare. from 1,000 down to 100
6. Very Rare. 100 down to 10
7. Extremely Rare. from 10 down to 1
Rare to me is a coin or variety that is R-6 or greater per the Sheldon rarity scale - 13-30 known and accounted for with photographic evidence. Rarity estimates don't mean anything to me without facts. An R-6 coin or variety is generally not available, and the wait time could be six months to 3 years just for the opportunity to bid on or purchase at any grade or condition. Few coin dates have this level of rarity, my 1797 half dollar is only "scarce" but I have 10 or so early half dollar varieties that meet that criteria, along with a bunch of tokens and medals.
That does not mean that I think DLRC should change their name to "David Lawrence Slightly Uncommon Coins."
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
Am I the only one who finds it a little funny that anyone even cares? "This coin is rare"....Ok. You would never act on that label without researching the actual mintage, remaining specimens known, etc. There is no special market implication to that term without the underlying research/understanding/census, etc. You would always need to use a qualifier...the "1909 S VDB IS rare....when you consider mintage compared to other coins in the series", etc.
the many ideas of what "rare" means in Numismatics that are represented in this thread tend to highlight the need for some basic understanding of what the term means. also, the choice of the 1909-S VDB as representing a rare coins shows the "why" in the equation. it isn't a rare coin, yet newcomers to the Hobby perceive it that way for two reasons: market hype by dealers and collectors(money) and lack of a basic understanding of Numismatic terms.
@keets said: Am I the only one who finds it a little funny that anyone even cares? "This coin is rare"....Ok. You would never act on that label without researching the actual mintage, remaining specimens known, etc. There is no special market implication to that term without the underlying research/understanding/census, etc. You would always need to use a qualifier...the "1909 S VDB IS rare....when you consider mintage compared to other coins in the series", etc.
the many ideas of what "rare" means in Numismatics that are represented in this thread tend to highlight the need for some basic understanding of what the term means. also, the choice of the 1909-S VDB as representing a rare coins shows the "why" in the equation. it isn't a rare coin, yet newcomers to the Hobby perceive it that way for two reasons: market hype by dealers and collectors(money) and lack of a basic understanding of Numismatic terms.
It's not a rare coin, but I was making the point that is IS rare relative to the series. The qualifier for such a subjective term matters.
I used to cut my penny collecting off at 1944, the first year that the penny was minted in the quantity of one billion.
Some collectors scoff at the idea that the 1909-S VDB penny is rare. Well, it is rare when one considers that some 25 billion bronze wheat pennies were made, excluding proof issues, from 1909 to 1959. If all wheat pennies ever made were available to be put into 5000 coin bags, one would find, on average, only one 1909-SVDB in about every 10-1/3 five thousand count bags.
Food for thought: In one year alone, 1982, the US mints produced over 16,720,000,000 pennies in the two mints that were producing business strikes.That's a face value in pennies of over $167 million for 1982. How many of those 1982 dated pennies were made with .950 copper? The Red Book doesn't say. But you all don't even want to know how many bags of 5000 count pennies you would have to look through before you would find a single 1909-S VDB if all bronze cents made from 1909 to 1983 were available to search through.
Rarity really is a relative thing.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Comments
@daltex said “ I guess I'm on an island all by myself. I say a rare coin is one that (base metal) sells for more than face value, otherwise more than bullion value.”
That is an interesting counterpoint to those who only assign the term to coins with a dozen or two examples.
This may in fact be close to the way the term is “colloquially” used.
That's easy. If it's in my collection, it's not rare!
Out of my reach. That's definitive as it gets.
This thread came to mind when I read one of the featured PCGS Articles from this week. It described the newly holdered New Orleans minted Double Eagle from the 1850s sourced from Europe as "rare" despite something like 10,000 having been made and survivors into the three digits.
Sure. I think that all the coins you listed are exactly what people mean when they say "I collect rare coins." It is the cutoff between those who set aside one of each America the Beautiful Quarter they happen to come across and those who take the huge step of walking into a coin shop, or show, or auction. I think the difference between those who save from change only and those who go to a coin dealer and pay 50c for the Massachusetts Statehood Quarter to complete their sets is bigger than that between the latter and a guy who is working on an 18th century date set.
Alan Herbert uses 7 levels of Rarity with "Rare" landing 5th-from 1,000 down to 100.
Are they all “rare” or are some levels “scarce” like the Sheldon and Fuld scales?
When someone makes this claim, it's an exaggeration and nothing more.
Dealers and auction firms use this terminology all the time and it's marketing, nothing more. If anyone looks at how dealers call their shop or firm, many have a name such as "John Doe Rare Coins". Presumably, it's because admitting what they sell is common wouldn't be as good for business, would it? I've yet to see a coin shop call itself "John Doe Common as a Grain of Sand on the Beach Coins" which would usually be a lot more accurate.
There is nothing wrong with collecting coins that are not rare. Everyone can't and most do not want to anyway, as rarity alone doesn't interest hardly anyone, especially when using current US marketing terminology. Concurrently, the way rarity is generally used now in US collecting isn't accurate either. It's not far from all students being above average.
Big money.
Am I the only one who finds it a little funny that anyone even cares? That could be said of some things I find important too, but this seems like such a relative thing that would never have any real meaning. "This coin is rare"....Ok. You would never act on that label without researching the actual mintage, remaining specimens known, etc. There is no special market implication to that term without the underlying research/understanding/census, etc. You would always need to use a qualifier...the "1909 S VDB IS rare....when you consider mintage compared to other coins in the series", etc.
Rare takes on different meanings depending upon how it s being used. Rare has a meaning in absolute terms but it also has meaning in terms of surviving condition. And even within condition rarity, there are reasons for splintering rarity further just based on the physical characteristics of that surviving population. Unmolested coins may be true condition rarities that are not captured by population reports.
Rare is a relative term that should really not be defined by conventional wisdom given the history associated with this hobby to basically resist change predicated on objectivity.
Good luck in rehashing a question often asked that produces the same antiquated as well as subjective outcome.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
@Zoins
1. Very Common. ranges from every coin struck down to 1,000,000
2. Common. from 1,000,000 down to 100,000
3. Scarce. from 100,000 down to 10,000
4. Very Scarce. from 10,000 down to 1,000
5. Rare. from 1,000 down to 100
6. Very Rare. 100 down to 10
7. Extremely Rare. from 10 down to 1
Rare isn't a word that I use, but in numismatic terms my definition would be something that typically takes more than 6+ months to locate.
I think rare is something that shows up less frequently than once a year
Rare to me is a coin or variety that is R-6 or greater per the Sheldon rarity scale - 13-30 known and accounted for with photographic evidence. Rarity estimates don't mean anything to me without facts. An R-6 coin or variety is generally not available, and the wait time could be six months to 3 years just for the opportunity to bid on or purchase at any grade or condition. Few coin dates have this level of rarity, my 1797 half dollar is only "scarce" but I have 10 or so early half dollar varieties that meet that criteria, along with a bunch of tokens and medals.
That does not mean that I think DLRC should change their name to "David Lawrence Slightly Uncommon Coins."
Am I the only one who finds it a little funny that anyone even cares? "This coin is rare"....Ok. You would never act on that label without researching the actual mintage, remaining specimens known, etc. There is no special market implication to that term without the underlying research/understanding/census, etc. You would always need to use a qualifier...the "1909 S VDB IS rare....when you consider mintage compared to other coins in the series", etc.
the many ideas of what "rare" means in Numismatics that are represented in this thread tend to highlight the need for some basic understanding of what the term means. also, the choice of the 1909-S VDB as representing a rare coins shows the "why" in the equation. it isn't a rare coin, yet newcomers to the Hobby perceive it that way for two reasons: market hype by dealers and collectors(money) and lack of a basic understanding of Numismatic terms.
It's not a rare coin, but I was making the point that is IS rare relative to the series. The qualifier for such a subjective term matters.
1975 was the first year of mint production of pennies that exceeded 5 billion therefore I don't collect pennies made after 1974. Too common.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Never discount the importance of popularity when rarity is the topic.
It’s important to distinguish rarity from availability.
Those are two very different things!
Yes, though unfortunately, that distinction has been ignored a number of times in this thread.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Just for kicks and for those debating if desirability factors into rarity, it depends on how you define it (the topic of the discussion)...
I used to cut my penny collecting off at 1944, the first year that the penny was minted in the quantity of one billion.
Some collectors scoff at the idea that the 1909-S VDB penny is rare. Well, it is rare when one considers that some 25 billion bronze wheat pennies were made, excluding proof issues, from 1909 to 1959. If all wheat pennies ever made were available to be put into 5000 coin bags, one would find, on average, only one 1909-SVDB in about every 10-1/3 five thousand count bags.
Food for thought: In one year alone, 1982, the US mints produced over 16,720,000,000 pennies in the two mints that were producing business strikes.That's a face value in pennies of over $167 million for 1982. How many of those 1982 dated pennies were made with .950 copper? The Red Book doesn't say. But you all don't even want to know how many bags of 5000 count pennies you would have to look through before you would find a single 1909-S VDB if all bronze cents made from 1909 to 1983 were available to search through.
Rarity really is a relative thing.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
On the forums, we often discuss Absolute Rarity and Condition Rarity.
Relative rarity is certainly not Absolute Rarity so we do need to start talking about Relative Rarity as a thing?
How many 1801 or 1802 half dollars were made? How many are there left?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
For me, it's something that is not plentiful. For me a rare coin would be a 1909-S VDB since I cannot afford the mega rarities.