What about the 1873-CC No Arrows Dime, legally struck but never issued due to a change in the law, with all but one (probably) melted. Only one known today, though at one time there were thought to be three specimens until Kagin's figured out that all three appearances were the same coin.
A legitimate rarity, but not worth $10,000,000. Discuss.
Oh, and by the way, five were sent to the Annual Assay Commission. Where are the other four?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@Nic said:
I understand that this coin was alleged and accepted as being the Farouk coin.
Was there any proof? Know the dealers and history etc.
I might have read an more detailed and convincing article at one time, but if so, can’t locate it. However, the one containing John Dannreuther‘s comments, linked at the bottom of this post, contains a bit of information regarding the background of the Farouk example being discussed. I’d been skeptical before reading it, but no longer am. Here’s the relevant portion:
“Also, John Kraljevich and I became totally convinced in Steve's London shop that the coin sold at the 2002 auction was the Farouk coin. Steve showed us other coins that came with the 1933 and they were from the Farouk sale. We both left his shop totally convinced that the 1933 double eagle was the Farouk coin.
The story Fenton was told by the seller (a Cairo jeweler) was that an Egyptian Colonel had obtained them in the Farouk sale. Another story the author heard (not in the Tripp book) was that Farouk's physician was given these coins in payment for his services, as the new government would not pay him. Neither of these may be accurate, but the coins sold to Fenton all matched the 1954 catalog, including at least one unique pattern that could have come from no other source! Several other patterns were plated in the catalog and the coins bought matched the photographs.”
@breakdown said:
For decades, certain dealers have been saying that non-collectors would affect higher prices in auctions of the high end coins but it doesn't seem to play out very often. Usually collectors or dealers or consortiums of dealers end up winning.
Maybe the 33 double eagle has a story that will grab the attention of a non-collector that decides to buy something interesting and "unique." Maybe a non-collector will be more willing to ignore the dilution potential of the other 33 double eagles out there. It is one of things that will make this auction interesting.
Excellent points. Add to that the fact that to non-coin-collector there is nothing special or unique about the design on the 33 double eagle compared to millions of others, unlike the other items being auctioned. The magic of the number "1933" is more meaningful to a coin collector.
@tradedollarnut said:
If you think about it, We The People already own a bakers dozen of them.
True, but that doesn't affect my interest as that doesn't affect one of the most interesting things to me, which is adding a name to a provenance list.
This is more interesting to me than most other coins since only 1 can be owned privately. A significant thing about this coin is that private ownership of other unique coins are subject to future discoveries. For example, another 1822 Half Eagle could be be discovered. But if another 1933 DE was discovered, it also wouldn't legally available for private ownership.
To me, this is an ultimate coin because of this.
Unless a better attorney comes along and preemptively sues the US Government with definitive proof that the exchange was legal. You just never know what could pop up.
I doubt a better attorney will be able to do anything, unless as you say definitive proof was discovered. Conjecture won't change the situation.
I think discovery of a receipt for a coin-for-coin exchange would change the situation significantly. If someone really wanted to make these coins legal surreptitiously, I imagine someone forging a receipt and trying to pass it off as genuine could be an avenue for these persons to attempt, or go to jail trying.
I don’t see how anyone could “make these coins legal surreptitiously.” In order to have any chance to make them legal, there would need to be a lawsuit. I think I know what you were trying to say, but if so, it doesn’t read correctly.
A lawsuit may be needed to release the Langbord 10, but I'm also thinking about the theoretical coins that are still out there, which likely would not need a lawsuit.
The existence of other 1933’s shouldn’t be ignored. But unless bidders plan to try to obtain another one surreptitiously (and risk the legal consequences), I don’t see the bidding being affected much.
The feds will spend millions in all kinds of legal actions keep the 'rouge' 33's from ever being legal to own. If I were interested in this one that is 'legal', the others would not be a worry......
Conversely, they could buy this one for about $10M and then sell all 12 not in the smithsonian for about $3M each and do everyone a favor...
The perhaps unintended consequence of that scenario would be that the finest known 1933 (which reportedly is not the Farouk or Smithsonian specimens) could then be given its deserved grade by PCGS with an added CAC.
Maybe then our OP would be interested in acquisition?
@tradedollarnut said:
If you think about it, We The People already own a bakers dozen of them.
True, but that doesn't affect my interest as that doesn't affect one of the most interesting things to me, which is adding a name to a provenance list.
This is more interesting to me than most other coins since only 1 can be owned privately. A significant thing about this coin is that private ownership of other unique coins are subject to future discoveries. For example, another 1822 Half Eagle could be be discovered. But if another 1933 DE was discovered, it also wouldn't legally available for private ownership.
To me, this is an ultimate coin because of this.
Unless a better attorney comes along and preemptively sues the US Government with definitive proof that the exchange was legal. You just never know what could pop up.
I doubt a better attorney will be able to do anything, unless as you say definitive proof was discovered. Conjecture won't change the situation.
I think discovery of a receipt for a coin-for-coin exchange would change the situation significantly. If someone really wanted to make these coins legal surreptitiously, I imagine someone forging a receipt and trying to pass it off as genuine could be an avenue for these persons to attempt, or go to jail trying.
I don’t see how anyone could “make these coins legal surreptitiously.” In order to have any chance to make them legal, there would need to be a lawsuit. I think I know what you were trying to say, but if so, it doesn’t read correctly.
A lawsuit may be needed to release the Langbord 10, but I'm also thinking about the theoretical coins that are still out there, which likely would not need a lawsuit.
The public information is that they were sent to Knox. On another point, is there any real proof that the Langbords only had 10? I can think of a lot of reasons to send in "some" of the coins, but no reason why I'd send them all.
I think the idea of an investor group or an individual (ie. Steve Cohen of NY Mets) buying all three treasures is a very real possibility. What would it take? $30 million? A drop in the bucket for someone with $14 billion in their checking account.
A lot of upside potential and very little risk for the absurdly rich. If you doubt that, revisit the $70 million dollar digital painting above.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Hmmmmm. Buyit for $10M and then approach the government about a deal. Give up the exclusivity rights in return for 5 examples of your choice. Win - win
@tradedollarnut said:
Hmmmmm. Buyit for $10M and then approach the government about a deal. Give up the exclusivity rights in return for 5 examples of your choice. Win - win
And get sued by the Langford Heirs
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@tradedollarnut said:
Hmmmmm. Buyit for $10M and then approach the government about a deal. Give up the exclusivity rights in return for 5 examples of your choice. Win - win
If you do that, it will be great for collectors.
If Legend does that, it would be ... wait for it ... Legendary
Laura mentioned she has 3 buyers for the coin so it’s a possibility.
@tradedollarnut said:
Hmmmmm. Buyit for $10M and then approach the government about a deal. Give up the exclusivity rights in return for 5 examples of your choice. Win - win
And get sued by the Langford Heirs
While I was and am sympathetic to their case, the courts have ruled they have no claim to the coins
The fact that there are 13 or so other coins is a red herring in my opinion. This is the only legal coin to own---that makes it special. There is no reasin to believe its status will change in the near future. Someone can say that it is a artificial rarity but the reality is it is rare by law! Its rarity is enhanced that there has been a recent decision on the legality of the other coins. If you want this coin, you will spend the extra money to have the stamp of approval from the govt. This coin will break a record.
@Gazes said:
The fact that there are 13 or so other coins is a red herring in my opinion. This is the only legal coin to own---that makes it special. There is no reasin to believe its status will change in the near future. Someone can say that it is a artificial rarity but the reality is it is rare by law! Its rarity is enhanced that there has been a recent decision on the legality of the other coins. If you want this coin, you will spend the extra money to have the stamp of approval from the govt. This coin will break a record.
Agree. The other coins would not affect my thinking in this being the only opportunity to own this coin.
If you want to make a mark in collecting, this is a big chance to do it.
@Gazes said:
The fact that there are 13 or so other coins is a red herring in my opinion. This is the only legal coin to own---that makes it special. There is no reasin to believe its status will change in the near future. Someone can say that it is a artificial rarity but the reality is it is rare by law! Its rarity is enhanced that there has been a recent decision on the legality of the other coins. If you want this coin, you will spend the extra money to have the stamp of approval from the govt. This coin will break a record.
Agree. The other coins would not affect my thinking in this being the only opportunity to own this coin.
If you want to make a mark in collecting, this is a big chance to do it.
No question about the last statement which could imply that those with the available funds and a serious interest in numismatics who have not yet made a mark in collecting may well be the target group as potential buyers.
@Gazes said:
The fact that there are 13 or so other coins is a red herring in my opinion. This is the only legal coin to own---that makes it special. There is no reasin to believe its status will change in the near future. Someone can say that it is a artificial rarity but the reality is it is rare by law! Its rarity is enhanced that there has been a recent decision on the legality of the other coins. If you want this coin, you will spend the extra money to have the stamp of approval from the govt. This coin will break a record.
1903-O Dollars used to be rare.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@Gazes said:
The fact that there are 13 or so other coins is a red herring in my opinion. This is the only legal coin to own---that makes it special. There is no reasin to believe its status will change in the near future. Someone can say that it is a artificial rarity but the reality is it is rare by law! Its rarity is enhanced that there has been a recent decision on the legality of the other coins. If you want this coin, you will spend the extra money to have the stamp of approval from the govt. This coin will break a record.
1903-O Dollars used to be rare.
Do you think the same thing is going to happen here?
@CaptHenway said:
What about the 1873-CC No Arrows Dime, legally struck but never issued due to a change in the law, with all but one (probably) melted. Only one known today, though at one time there were thought to be three specimens until Kagin's figured out that all three appearances were the same coin.
A legitimate rarity, but not worth $10,000,000. Discuss.
Oh, and by the way, five were sent to the Annual Assay Commission. Where are the other four?
Well, the Eliasberg "King of Carson City coins" dime did sell for almost $2M in 2012 so it's certainly no slouch!
As to how to get from $2M to $10M, some demand generation may be needed. Have any books been written about it or has it been featured in any television shows or movies?
Also of note, it's just Number 24 on the 100 Greatest U.S. Coins list behind the 1856 Flying Eagle Cent. Why is it behind a coin with such a relatively high mintage? Should it be higher?
For some people, the distinction you're pointing out may matter. For others, it may not.
For unique items, value can come down to how much people want it. When will another chance come around? Will the interested buyers even be alive when it does?
@CaptHenway said:
What about the 1873-CC No Arrows Dime, legally struck but never issued due to a change in the law, with all but one (probably) melted. Only one known today, though at one time there were thought to be three specimens until Kagin's figured out that all three appearances were the same coin.
A legitimate rarity, but not worth $10,000,000. Discuss.
Oh, and by the way, five were sent to the Annual Assay Commission. Where are the other four?
Well, the Eliasberg "King of Carson City coins" dime did sell for almost $2M in 2012 so it's certainly no slouch!
As to how to get from $2M to $10M, some demand generation may be needed. Have any books been written about it or has it been featured in any television shows or movies?
Also of note, it's just Number 24 on the 100 Greatest U.S. Coins list behind the 1856 Flying Eagle Cent. Why is it behind a coin with such a relatively high mintage? Should it be higher?
It appears to me that a lot of value in rare coins is in the story. The 1894-s 10c is more available than the 1873 cc no arrows 10c. The 1894-s dime has a better story, and thus more interest. Same with the 1913 V 5c.
The story on the 1933 St. Gaudens will drive the value. In fact, because of the law, it is guaranteed unique. The same cannot be said for other United States coins.
My bias of ownership would be the cc dime, but I acknowledge the it is far more esoteric than the others I mentioned. Story carries the day in rarities, in my opinion.
@cccoins said:
The story on the 1933 St. Gaudens will drive the value. In fact, because of the law, it is guaranteed unique. The same cannot be said for other United States coins.
Ha good point. What happens if some of the 19000 dollars struck in 1804 are discovered with the 1804 date? Or a bunch of the missing 1822 half eagles? Yeah yeah I know extremely unlikely. But what if?
@tradedollarnut said:
If you think about it, We The People already own a bakers dozen of them.
True, but that doesn't affect my interest as that doesn't affect one of the most interesting things to me, which is adding a name to a provenance list.
This is more interesting to me than most other coins since only 1 can be owned privately. A significant thing about this coin is that private ownership of other unique coins are subject to future discoveries. For example, another 1822 Half Eagle could be be discovered. But if another 1933 DE was discovered, it also wouldn't legally available for private ownership.
To me, this is an ultimate coin because of this.
Unless a better attorney comes along and preemptively sues the US Government with definitive proof that the exchange was legal. You just never know what could pop up.
I doubt a better attorney will be able to do anything, unless as you say definitive proof was discovered. Conjecture won't change the situation.
I think discovery of a receipt for a coin-for-coin exchange would change the situation significantly. If someone really wanted to make these coins legal surreptitiously, I imagine someone forging a receipt and trying to pass it off as genuine could be an avenue for these persons to attempt, or go to jail trying.
I don’t see how anyone could “make these coins legal surreptitiously.” In order to have any chance to make them legal, there would need to be a lawsuit. I think I know what you were trying to say, but if so, it doesn’t read correctly.
A lawsuit may be needed to release the Langbord 10, but I'm also thinking about the theoretical coins that are still out there, which likely would not need a lawsuit.
In the past, they’ve been displayed. And not t> @Zoins said:
@Nic said:
New record price whoever wins. A phoenix may rise is my guess.
I hope so. The Stickney Brasher did well but not enough to set a high water mark for coins.
I hope this can move the goal post for the entire market.
@CaptHenway said:
What about the 1873-CC No Arrows Dime, legally struck but never issued due to a change in the law, with all but one (probably) melted. Only one known today, though at one time there were thought to be three specimens until Kagin's figured out that all three appearances were the same coin.
A legitimate rarity, but not worth $10,000,000. Discuss.
Oh, and by the way, five were sent to the Annual Assay Commission. Where are the other four?
Well, the Eliasberg "King of Carson City coins" dime did sell for almost $2M in 2012 so it's certainly no slouch!
As to how to get from $2M to $10M, some demand generation may be needed. Have any books been written about it or has it been featured in any television shows or movies?
Also of note, it's just Number 24 on the 100 Greatest U.S. Coins list behind the 1856 Flying Eagle Cent. Why is it behind a coin with such a relatively high mintage? Should it be higher?
It appears to me that a lot of value in rare coins is in the story. The 1894-s 10c is more available than the 1873 cc no arrows 10c. The 1894-s dime has a better story, and thus more interest. Same with the 1913 V 5c.
The story on the 1933 St. Gaudens will drive the value. In fact, because of the law, it is guaranteed unique. The same cannot be said for other United States coins.
My bias of ownership would be the cc dime, but I acknowledge the it is far more esoteric than the others I mentioned. Story carries the day in rarities, in my opinion.
In addition to the story, itself, some coins are so rare and/or obscure that most people are unaware of their existence. That results in far less interest and demand than might otherwise be the case.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Gazes said:
The fact that there are 13 or so other coins is a red herring in my opinion. This is the only legal coin to own---that makes it special. There is no reasin to believe its status will change in the near future. Someone can say that it is a artificial rarity but the reality is it is rare by law! Its rarity is enhanced that there has been a recent decision on the legality of the other coins. If you want this coin, you will spend the extra money to have the stamp of approval from the govt. This coin will break a record.
1903-O Dollars used to be rare.
Do you think the same thing is going to happen here?
Bags, no. The Langbord Hoard? Who knows.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@CaptHenway said:
What about the 1873-CC No Arrows Dime, legally struck but never issued due to a change in the law, with all but one (probably) melted. Only one known today, though at one time there were thought to be three specimens until Kagin's figured out that all three appearances were the same coin.
A legitimate rarity, but not worth $10,000,000. Discuss.
Oh, and by the way, five were sent to the Annual Assay Commission. Where are the other four?
Well, the Eliasberg "King of Carson City coins" dime did sell for almost $2M in 2012 so it's certainly no slouch!
As to how to get from $2M to $10M, some demand generation may be needed. Have any books been written about it or has it been featured in any television shows or movies?
Also of note, it's just Number 24 on the 100 Greatest U.S. Coins list behind the 1856 Flying Eagle Cent. Why is it behind a coin with such a relatively high mintage? Should it be higher?
It appears to me that a lot of value in rare coins is in the story. The 1894-s 10c is more available than the 1873 cc no arrows 10c. The 1894-s dime has a better story, and thus more interest.
What do you think is better about the 1894-S story? The most interesting thing to me about the 1894-S is the Hallie Daggett Ice Cream specimen. It's also the lowest graded specimen at G4.
Same with the 1913 V 5c.
The story seems to be that there isn't a story. Is there anything about this coin known yet?
Due to the lack of information, a lot of what has made this coin popular seems to be marketing, which can be done for other coins.
The story on the 1933 St. Gaudens will drive the value. In fact, because of the law, it is guaranteed unique. The same cannot be said for other United States coins.
The 1933 has a huge story which is tied to Executive Order 6102. Many other coins have stories but not tied to Presidential orders and huge world events outside of coins.
My bias of ownership would be the cc dime, but I acknowledge the it is far more esoteric than the others I mentioned. Story carries the day in rarities, in my opinion.
To rise in value, the dime needs a story that will help desire for it transcend CC collectors and completionist collectors to trophy collectors.
Imagine buying big ads to buy the remaining four 1873-CC dimes, like the Liberty head nickel?
There should also be a story like why the US moved from the no-arrows to arrows dime.
Monaco recently published a book by Michael Carabini and Adam Crum. A book like this could be done for each unique or nearly unique coin. I think the unique 1794 specimen dollar could use a book like this.
Re; Monaco recently published a book by Michael Carabini and Adam Crum. A book like this could be done for each unique or nearly unique coin. I think the unique 1794 plugged dollar could use a book like this.
Re; Monaco recently published a book by Michael Carabini and Adam Crum. A book like this could be done for each unique or nearly unique coin. I think the unique 1794 plugged dollar could use a book like this.
Martin Logies book is entirely on 1794 dollars (with a large section on the plugged piece), so is the Collins book.
@Exbrit said:
Re; Monaco recently published a book by Michael Carabini and Adam Crum. A book like this could be done for each unique or nearly unique coin. I think the unique 1794 plugged dollar could use a book like this.
I still haven't received my copy.
Update - the day I complained about it (today) is the day I received it. Figures! Nice book for free.
@Exbrit said:
Re; Monaco recently published a book by Michael Carabini and Adam Crum. A book like this could be done for each unique or nearly unique coin. I think the unique 1794 plugged dollar could use a book like this.
I still haven't received my copy.
Update - the day I complained about it (today) is the day I received it. Figures! Nice book for free.
You should immediately complain that you’ve never won the lotto. 😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@CaptHenway said:
What about the 1873-CC No Arrows Dime, legally struck but never issued due to a change in the law, with all but one (probably) melted. Only one known today, though at one time there were thought to be three specimens until Kagin's figured out that all three appearances were the same coin.
A legitimate rarity, but not worth $10,000,000. Discuss.
Oh, and by the way, five were sent to the Annual Assay Commission. Where are the other four?
Well, the Eliasberg "King of Carson City coins" dime did sell for almost $2M in 2012 so it's certainly no slouch!
As to how to get from $2M to $10M, some demand generation may be needed. Have any books been written about it or has it been featured in any television shows or movies?
Also of note, it's just Number 24 on the 100 Greatest U.S. Coins list behind the 1856 Flying Eagle Cent. Why is it behind a coin with such a relatively high mintage? Should it be higher?
It appears to me that a lot of value in rare coins is in the story. The 1894-s 10c is more available than the 1873 cc no arrows 10c. The 1894-s dime has a better story, and thus more interest.
What do you think is better about the 1894-S story? The most interesting thing to me about the 1894-S is the Hallie Daggett Ice Cream specimen. It's also the lowest graded specimen at G4.
Same with the 1913 V 5c.
The story seems to be that there isn't a story. Is there anything about this coin known yet?
Due to the lack of information, a lot of what has made this coin popular seems to be marketing, which can be done for other coins.
The story on the 1933 St. Gaudens will drive the value. In fact, because of the law, it is guaranteed unique. The same cannot be said for other United States coins.
The 1933 has a huge story which is tied to Executive Order 6102. Many other coins have stories but not tied to Presidential orders and huge world events outside of coins.
My bias of ownership would be the cc dime, but I acknowledge the it is far more esoteric than the others I mentioned. Story carries the day in rarities, in my opinion.
To rise in value, the dime needs a story that will help desire for it transcend CC collectors and completionist collectors to trophy collectors.
Imagine buying big ads to buy the remaining four 1873-CC dimes, like the Liberty head nickel?
There should also be a story like why the US moved from the no-arrows to arrows dime.
Monaco recently published a book by Michael Carabini and Adam Crum. A book like this could be done for each unique or nearly unique coin. I think the unique 1794 plugged dollar could use a book like this.
.
. 1976 $1 NO S TYPE 2 - SILVER PR66
Interesting discussion. Mitch Spivack has the only major type unique 20 century coin discovered. The only time it sold in auction, it was mislabeled. I know Mitch has turned down a $1,000,000 offer. How would you view this coin in value?
@CaptHenway said:
What about the 1873-CC No Arrows Dime, legally struck but never issued due to a change in the law, with all but one (probably) melted. Only one known today, though at one time there were thought to be three specimens until Kagin's figured out that all three appearances were the same coin.
A legitimate rarity, but not worth $10,000,000. Discuss.
Oh, and by the way, five were sent to the Annual Assay Commission. Where are the other four?
Well, the Eliasberg "King of Carson City coins" dime did sell for almost $2M in 2012 so it's certainly no slouch!
As to how to get from $2M to $10M, some demand generation may be needed. Have any books been written about it or has it been featured in any television shows or movies?
Also of note, it's just Number 24 on the 100 Greatest U.S. Coins list behind the 1856 Flying Eagle Cent. Why is it behind a coin with such a relatively high mintage? Should it be higher?
It appears to me that a lot of value in rare coins is in the story. The 1894-s 10c is more available than the 1873 cc no arrows 10c. The 1894-s dime has a better story, and thus more interest.
What do you think is better about the 1894-S story? The most interesting thing to me about the 1894-S is the Hallie Daggett Ice Cream specimen. It's also the lowest graded specimen at G4.
Same with the 1913 V 5c.
The story seems to be that there isn't a story. Is there anything about this coin known yet?
Due to the lack of information, a lot of what has made this coin popular seems to be marketing, which can be done for other coins.
The story on the 1933 St. Gaudens will drive the value. In fact, because of the law, it is guaranteed unique. The same cannot be said for other United States coins.
The 1933 has a huge story which is tied to Executive Order 6102. Many other coins have stories but not tied to Presidential orders and huge world events outside of coins.
My bias of ownership would be the cc dime, but I acknowledge the it is far more esoteric than the others I mentioned. Story carries the day in rarities, in my opinion.
To rise in value, the dime needs a story that will help desire for it transcend CC collectors and completionist collectors to trophy collectors.
Imagine buying big ads to buy the remaining four 1873-CC dimes, like the Liberty head nickel?
There should also be a story like why the US moved from the no-arrows to arrows dime.
Monaco recently published a book by Michael Carabini and Adam Crum. A book like this could be done for each unique or nearly unique coin. I think the unique 1794 plugged dollar could use a book like this.
.
. 1976 $1 NO S TYPE 2 - SILVER PR66
Interesting discussion. Mitch Spivack has the only major type unique 20 century coin discovered. The only time it sold in auction, it was mislabeled. I know Mitch has turned down a $1,000,000 offer. How would you view this coin in value?
I like this piece. I handled it when it came into Coin World back in 1977 or 8.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@Exbrit said:
Re; Monaco recently published a book by Michael Carabini and Adam Crum. A book like this could be done for each unique or nearly unique coin. I think the unique 1794 plugged dollar could use a book like this.
I still haven't received my copy.
Update - the day I complained about it (today) is the day I received it. Figures! Nice book for free.
You should immediately complain that you’ve never won the lotto. 😉
I have. Just joking. I didn't complain either - just here a bit. Nice photo of Max in it.
Interesting discussion. Mitch Spivack has the only major type unique 20 century coin discovered. The only time it sold in auction, it was mislabeled. I know Mitch has turned down a $1,000,000 offer. How would you view this coin in value?
Not sure if you wanted my reply. My first thought was $50. But I don’t know Ike’s. Then I read the no S, so I place it at $50,000 to $100,000. I wouldn’t have the guts to turn down $1,000,000 for it. Seems like I would take the money and run, or at least trade for something I could appreciate more like a Mormon $10 and $20.
@MFeld said:
In addition to the story, itself, some coins are so rare and/or obscure that most people are unaware of their existence. That results in far less interest and demand than might otherwise be the case.
I agree. I didn’t plan to have an 1873 cc no arrows 25c in my collection until the day I had one. Same with the 1876 cc 20c. Sometimes the coin can be so out of reach that you build your plan for your collection based on not having a specific coin.
@MFeld said:
In addition to the story, itself, some coins are so rare and/or obscure that most people are unaware of their existence. That results in far less interest and demand than might otherwise be the case.
I agree. I didn’t plan to have an 1873 cc no arrows 25c in my collection until the day I had one. Same with the 1876 cc 20c. Sometimes the coin can be so out of reach that you build your plan for your collection based on not having a specific coin.
This is how uncollectible collections get built, with a lot of patience and luck.
@Currin wrote: 1976 $1 NO S TYPE 2 - SILVER PR66
Interesting discussion. Mitch Spivack has the only major type unique 20 century coin discovered. The only time it sold in auction, it was mislabeled. I know Mitch has turned down a $1,000,000 offer. How would you view this coin in value?
I would go with what I think the under bidder would push the price to in an open auction.
I can say I’ll only sell any of my pieces for $10M but it wouldn’t make it worth that.
Of course, the ‘76 No-S Eisenhower has special added value to Mitch because it is the halo coin to market his business and he’s promised it to his son who also has business value for the coin. This is similar to how the Broken CC Morgan is also a marketing vehicle for Northern Nevada Coin.
@Zoins said:
There are people out there that want things that no one else has.
While it's not unique, no one else can say they have one.
This is one of those items.
.....
If I had the money and was in the market for an object in this price range, I'm going for a Russian Imperial Faberge Easter Egg, assuming one is even available to be bought which it probably is not. It's far more interesting in all aspects than any coin to the overwhelming majority of those who do not collect coins.
The Russian Imperial Faberge Easter Egg that would certainly fit the bill is this one I came across in the Kremlin's Armory.
At least I was able to pick up in Russia a replica as a souvenir - though it would have been even cooler if the replica also had an operating full length train.
@Currin wrote: 1976 $1 NO S TYPE 2 - SILVER PR66
Interesting discussion. Mitch Spivack has the only major type unique 20 century coin discovered. The only time it sold in auction, it was mislabeled. I know Mitch has turned down a $1,000,000 offer. How would you view this coin in value?
I would go with what I think the under bidder would push the price to in an open auction.
I can say I’ll only sell any of my pieces for $10M but it wouldn’t make it worth that.
Of course, the ‘76 No-S Eisenhower has special added value to Mitch because it is the halo coin to market his business and he’s promised it to his son who also has business value for the coin. This is similar to how the Broken CC Morgan is also a marketing vehicle for Northern Nevada Coin.
And a cool thing about this piece is that nobody knows why it was made!
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@Currin wrote: 1976 $1 NO S TYPE 2 - SILVER PR66
Interesting discussion. Mitch Spivack has the only major type unique 20 century coin discovered. The only time it sold in auction, it was mislabeled. I know Mitch has turned down a $1,000,000 offer. How would you view this coin in value?
I would go with what I think the under bidder would push the price to in an open auction.
I can say I’ll only sell any of my pieces for $10M but it wouldn’t make it worth that.
Of course, the ‘76 No-S Eisenhower has special added value to Mitch because it is the halo coin to market his business and he’s promised it to his son who also has business value for the coin. This is similar to how the Broken CC Morgan is also a marketing vehicle for Northern Nevada Coin.
And a cool thing about this piece is that nobody knows why it was made!
I think we know why the 1913 Liberty Nickels were made.......
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
if it hammers at $10 or is 10 with the juice would it be the result of an efficient market or would it still be $3m value with $7m monetization ?
I dont understand the comment 3 million coin value 7 million monetization value and then "shrug".
The auction price for any coin but especially a famous rarity such as this is the product of many factors (the number of actual bidders, the economy, the auction house, other coins on the market, intangibles, etc). The beauty of auction is that bidders will establish a price by putting real money behind it---not just giving an opinion. At the end of the day the auction price is the best estimate of the value on that given day. Attempting to disect how the value of the coin is split up may be amusing and fun to speculate but is also irrelevant. The price is the price.
if it hammers at $10 or is 10 with the juice would it be the result of an efficient market or would it still be $3m value with $7m monetization ?
I dont understand the comment 3 million coin value 7 million monetization value and then "shrug".
The auction price for any coin but especially a famous rarity such as this is the product of many factors (the number of actual bidders, the economy, the auction house, other coins on the market, intangibles, etc). The beauty of auction is that bidders will establish a price by putting real money behind it---not just giving an opinion. At the end of the day the auction price is the best estimate of the value on that given day. Attempting to disect how the value of the coin is split up may be amusing and fun to speculate but is also irrelevant. The price is the price.
I think he was saying that it should be about a $3 million dollar coin, but that legalities/circumstances have added several million dollars to the price tag.
While dissecting how the value of the coin is split up might be irrelevant, as you said, it's fun. And to many of us, it's quite relevant, as well.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
if it hammers at $10 or is 10 with the juice would it be the result of an efficient market or would it still be $3m value with $7m monetization ?
I dont understand the comment 3 million coin value 7 million monetization value and then "shrug".
The auction price for any coin but especially a famous rarity such as this is the product of many factors (the number of actual bidders, the economy, the auction house, other coins on the market, intangibles, etc). The beauty of auction is that bidders will establish a price by putting real money behind it---not just giving an opinion. At the end of the day the auction price is the best estimate of the value on that given day. Attempting to disect how the value of the coin is split up may be amusing and fun to speculate but is also irrelevant. The price is the price.
I think he was saying that it should be about a $3 million dollar coin, but that legalities/circumstances have added several million dollars to the price tag.
While dissecting how the value of the coin is split up might be irrelevant, as you said, it's fun. And to many of us, it's very relevant, as well.
It is fun to speculate. I think the biggest trap regarding his logic is that its only a $3 million dollar coin but the legal and other "stuff" add 7 million dollars.
if it hammers at $10 or is 10 with the juice would it be the result of an efficient market or would it still be $3m value with $7m monetization ?
I dont understand the comment 3 million coin value 7 million monetization value and then "shrug".
The auction price for any coin but especially a famous rarity such as this is the product of many factors (the number of actual bidders, the economy, the auction house, other coins on the market, intangibles, etc). The beauty of auction is that bidders will establish a price by putting real money behind it---not just giving an opinion. At the end of the day the auction price is the best estimate of the value on that given day. Attempting to disect how the value of the coin is split up may be amusing and fun to speculate but is also irrelevant. The price is the price.
I think he was saying that it should be about a $3 million dollar coin, but that legalities/circumstances have added several million dollars to the price tag.
While dissecting how the value of the coin is split up might be irrelevant, as you said, it's fun. And to many of us, it's very relevant, as well.
It is fun to speculate. I think the biggest trap regarding his logic is that its only a $3 million dollar coin but the legal and other "stuff" add 7 million dollars.
Why, how many other coins with populations of approximately a dozen, tend to bring $3,000,000?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Comments
What about the 1873-CC No Arrows Dime, legally struck but never issued due to a change in the law, with all but one (probably) melted. Only one known today, though at one time there were thought to be three specimens until Kagin's figured out that all three appearances were the same coin.
A legitimate rarity, but not worth $10,000,000. Discuss.
Oh, and by the way, five were sent to the Annual Assay Commission. Where are the other four?
I might have read an more detailed and convincing article at one time, but if so, can’t locate it. However, the one containing John Dannreuther‘s comments, linked at the bottom of this post, contains a bit of information regarding the background of the Farouk example being discussed. I’d been skeptical before reading it, but no longer am. Here’s the relevant portion:
“Also, John Kraljevich and I became totally convinced in Steve's London shop that the coin sold at the 2002 auction was the Farouk coin. Steve showed us other coins that came with the 1933 and they were from the Farouk sale. We both left his shop totally convinced that the 1933 double eagle was the Farouk coin.
The story Fenton was told by the seller (a Cairo jeweler) was that an Egyptian Colonel had obtained them in the Farouk sale. Another story the author heard (not in the Tripp book) was that Farouk's physician was given these coins in payment for his services, as the new government would not pay him. Neither of these may be accurate, but the coins sold to Fenton all matched the 1954 catalog, including at least one unique pattern that could have come from no other source! Several other patterns were plated in the catalog and the coins bought matched the photographs.”
https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/periodical/17183
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Excellent points. Add to that the fact that to non-coin-collector there is nothing special or unique about the design on the 33 double eagle compared to millions of others, unlike the other items being auctioned. The magic of the number "1933" is more meaningful to a coin collector.
So how does anyone know if Langford's coins were not destroyed?
The perhaps unintended consequence of that scenario would be that the finest known 1933 (which reportedly is not the Farouk or Smithsonian specimens) could then be given its deserved grade by PCGS with an added CAC.
Maybe then our OP would be interested in acquisition?
The public information is that they were sent to Knox. On another point, is there any real proof that the Langbords only had 10? I can think of a lot of reasons to send in "some" of the coins, but no reason why I'd send them all.
I think the idea of an investor group or an individual (ie. Steve Cohen of NY Mets) buying all three treasures is a very real possibility. What would it take? $30 million? A drop in the bucket for someone with $14 billion in their checking account.
A lot of upside potential and very little risk for the absurdly rich. If you doubt that, revisit the $70 million dollar digital painting above.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Hmmmmm. Buyit for $10M and then approach the government about a deal. Give up the exclusivity rights in return for 5 examples of your choice. Win - win
And get sued by the Langford Heirs
If you do that, it will be great for collectors.
If Legend does that, it would be ... wait for it ... Legendary
Laura mentioned she has 3 buyers for the coin so it’s a possibility.
While I was and am sympathetic to their case, the courts have ruled they have no claim to the coins
Thank you Mark. I'm no longer skeptical.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
New record price whoever wins. A phoenix may rise is my guess.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
I hope so. The Stickney Brasher did well but not enough to set a high water mark for coins.
I hope this can move the goal post for the entire market.
The fact that there are 13 or so other coins is a red herring in my opinion. This is the only legal coin to own---that makes it special. There is no reasin to believe its status will change in the near future. Someone can say that it is a artificial rarity but the reality is it is rare by law! Its rarity is enhanced that there has been a recent decision on the legality of the other coins. If you want this coin, you will spend the extra money to have the stamp of approval from the govt. This coin will break a record.
Agree. The other coins would not affect my thinking in this being the only opportunity to own this coin.
If you want to make a mark in collecting, this is a big chance to do it.
No question about the last statement which could imply that those with the available funds and a serious interest in numismatics who have not yet made a mark in collecting may well be the target group as potential buyers.
Maybe it's the coin that can unite us all?
1903-O Dollars used to be rare.
Coin value $3M
Monetization value $7M
Shrug.
Do you think the same thing is going to happen here?
Well, the Eliasberg "King of Carson City coins" dime did sell for almost $2M in 2012 so it's certainly no slouch!
As to how to get from $2M to $10M, some demand generation may be needed. Have any books been written about it or has it been featured in any television shows or movies?
Also of note, it's just Number 24 on the 100 Greatest U.S. Coins list behind the 1856 Flying Eagle Cent. Why is it behind a coin with such a relatively high mintage? Should it be higher?
Another way some may look at it could be:
Ownership value $10M
For some people, the distinction you're pointing out may matter. For others, it may not.
For unique items, value can come down to how much people want it. When will another chance come around? Will the interested buyers even be alive when it does?
It appears to me that a lot of value in rare coins is in the story. The 1894-s 10c is more available than the 1873 cc no arrows 10c. The 1894-s dime has a better story, and thus more interest. Same with the 1913 V 5c.
The story on the 1933 St. Gaudens will drive the value. In fact, because of the law, it is guaranteed unique. The same cannot be said for other United States coins.
My bias of ownership would be the cc dime, but I acknowledge the it is far more esoteric than the others I mentioned. Story carries the day in rarities, in my opinion.
Ha good point. What happens if some of the 19000 dollars struck in 1804 are discovered with the 1804 date? Or a bunch of the missing 1822 half eagles? Yeah yeah I know extremely unlikely. But what if?
In the past, they’ve been displayed. And not t> @Zoins said:
You can hope all > @cccoins said:
In addition to the story, itself, some coins are so rare and/or obscure that most people are unaware of their existence. That results in far less interest and demand than might otherwise be the case.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Bags, no. The Langbord Hoard? Who knows.
If you mean to write "You can hope all you want", then yes, I am hoping.
I've hoped for the Brasher, 1794 Plugged Dollar (second time) and will hope again.
What do you think is better about the 1894-S story? The most interesting thing to me about the 1894-S is the Hallie Daggett Ice Cream specimen. It's also the lowest graded specimen at G4.
The story seems to be that there isn't a story. Is there anything about this coin known yet?
Due to the lack of information, a lot of what has made this coin popular seems to be marketing, which can be done for other coins.
The 1933 has a huge story which is tied to Executive Order 6102. Many other coins have stories but not tied to Presidential orders and huge world events outside of coins.
To rise in value, the dime needs a story that will help desire for it transcend CC collectors and completionist collectors to trophy collectors.
Imagine buying big ads to buy the remaining four 1873-CC dimes, like the Liberty head nickel?
There should also be a story like why the US moved from the no-arrows to arrows dime.
Monaco recently published a book by Michael Carabini and Adam Crum. A book like this could be done for each unique or nearly unique coin. I think the unique 1794 specimen dollar could use a book like this.
Re; Monaco recently published a book by Michael Carabini and Adam Crum. A book like this could be done for each unique or nearly unique coin. I think the unique 1794 plugged dollar could use a book like this.
I still haven't received my copy.
I pr> @Exbrit said:
Martin Logies book is entirely on 1794 dollars (with a large section on the plugged piece), so is the Collins book.
Update - the day I complained about it (today) is the day I received it. Figures! Nice book for free.
You should immediately complain that you’ve never won the lotto. 😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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1976 $1 NO S TYPE 2 - SILVER PR66
Interesting discussion. Mitch Spivack has the only major type unique 20 century coin discovered. The only time it sold in auction, it was mislabeled. I know Mitch has turned down a $1,000,000 offer. How would you view this coin in value?
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
I like this piece. I handled it when it came into Coin World back in 1977 or 8.
TD
I have. Just joking. I didn't complain either - just here a bit. Nice photo of Max in it.
Not sure if you wanted my reply. My first thought was $50. But I don’t know Ike’s. Then I read the no S, so I place it at $50,000 to $100,000. I wouldn’t have the guts to turn down $1,000,000 for it. Seems like I would take the money and run, or at least trade for something I could appreciate more like a Mormon $10 and $20.
I agree. I didn’t plan to have an 1873 cc no arrows 25c in my collection until the day I had one. Same with the 1876 cc 20c. Sometimes the coin can be so out of reach that you build your plan for your collection based on not having a specific coin.
Cool Thread...just learned a little bit about the King on google...looks like he had some real fun in Italy towards the end
This is how uncollectible collections get built, with a lot of patience and luck.
I would go with what I think the under bidder would push the price to in an open auction.
I can say I’ll only sell any of my pieces for $10M but it wouldn’t make it worth that.
Of course, the ‘76 No-S Eisenhower has special added value to Mitch because it is the halo coin to market his business and he’s promised it to his son who also has business value for the coin. This is similar to how the Broken CC Morgan is also a marketing vehicle for Northern Nevada Coin.
.....
The Russian Imperial Faberge Easter Egg that would certainly fit the bill is this one I came across in the Kremlin's Armory.
At least I was able to pick up in Russia a replica as a souvenir - though it would have been even cooler if the replica also had an operating full length train.
if it hammers at $10 or is 10 with the juice would it be the result of an efficient market or would it still be $3m value with $7m monetization ?
And a cool thing about this piece is that nobody knows why it was made!
Just like the 1913 Liberty nickels!
I think we know why the 1913 Liberty Nickels were made.......
I dont understand the comment 3 million coin value 7 million monetization value and then "shrug".
The auction price for any coin but especially a famous rarity such as this is the product of many factors (the number of actual bidders, the economy, the auction house, other coins on the market, intangibles, etc). The beauty of auction is that bidders will establish a price by putting real money behind it---not just giving an opinion. At the end of the day the auction price is the best estimate of the value on that given day. Attempting to disect how the value of the coin is split up may be amusing and fun to speculate but is also irrelevant. The price is the price.
I think he was saying that it should be about a $3 million dollar coin, but that legalities/circumstances have added several million dollars to the price tag.
While dissecting how the value of the coin is split up might be irrelevant, as you said, it's fun. And to many of us, it's quite relevant, as well.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It is fun to speculate. I think the biggest trap regarding his logic is that its only a $3 million dollar coin but the legal and other "stuff" add 7 million dollars.
Why, how many other coins with populations of approximately a dozen, tend to bring $3,000,000?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.