@Goldenage said:
In the year 2010 Mickey Mantle PSA 5 Topps rookies were selling for $15,000.
In the year 2020 PSA 5 Mantle Topps rookies are selling for $50-$60,000.
I will safely say that anything named Jordan or Gretzky in the year 2030 will be much higher as well.
Forget 2020. In 2021, the last two PSA 5's sold for 118 and 145K. Mantle cards have always risen through the years. That is nothing new, however, if you look at the last 10 years, you will see the prices have increased in a quicker amount of time than the previous 10 and the previous 10 before that and so on. In 10 years, I wouldn't be surprised if PSA 5's were selling in the 5-600k range by then.
Don't forget about Mantles true RC, '51.
In 2010 I was chasing nicely centered PSA 4s for $2500. I kept missing out.
Finally got a SGC 5.5 in '14.
Currently one of the most underrated/undervalued pieces of cardboard
is there a 51 mantle sitting at a million that's being auctioned off right now? please tell me it's a psa 2! 😉
@Goldenage said:
In the year 2010 Mickey Mantle PSA 5 Topps rookies were selling for $15,000.
In the year 2020 PSA 5 Mantle Topps rookies are selling for $50-$60,000.
I will safely say that anything named Jordan or Gretzky in the year 2030 will be much higher as well.
Forget 2020. In 2021, the last two PSA 5's sold for 118 and 145K. Mantle cards have always risen through the years. That is nothing new, however, if you look at the last 10 years, you will see the prices have increased in a quicker amount of time than the previous 10 and the previous 10 before that and so on. In 10 years, I wouldn't be surprised if PSA 5's were selling in the 5-600k range by then.
Don't forget about Mantles true RC, '51.
In 2010 I was chasing nicely centered PSA 4s for $2500. I kept missing out.
Finally got a SGC 5.5 in '14.
Currently one of the most underrated/undervalued pieces of cardboard
is there a 51 mantle sitting at a million that's being auctioned off right now? please tell me it's a psa 2! 😉
I told myself once they start closing regularly above $30k I would sell mine, but with how quickly they are appreciating I will have to re-evaluate that decision.
We should all feel grateful, and to some extent lucky.
Now can at least 10 plus of you please except PSA grader jobs so we don't have to wait 6 months to get our next batch of cards graded. I need a newer, used bass boat and Spring is quickly approaching.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
A couple of PSA 8 stickers sold for $13k on ebay this week. Who would've thought?
I have a PSA 7 Jordan rookie and a PSA 8 dead centered sticker. In November you could purchase
the pair for $5K. This week you need to fork over at least $25K. I think the time has come to
part with these. No sentimental value to me, just had them since 2000.
W.C.Fields "I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
@2dueces said:
A couple of PSA 8 stickers sold for $13k on ebay this week. Who would've thought?
I have a PSA 7 Jordan rookie and a PSA 8 dead centered sticker. In November you could purchase
the pair for $5K. This week you need to fork over at least $25K. I think the time has come to
part with these. No sentimental value to me, just had them since 2000.
That’s the great thing about cards. You can enjoy them until you want to trade them in for something else. A win win.
A 1996 Kobe Topps Chrome refractor PSA 10 sold for $500,000 from the PWCC vault 2 days ago. Pretty sure it is a real sale since they updated the insured price of the PSA 9 Kobe TC refractor RC I have in their vault to $100,000. I bet the 1996 TC hobby boxes are going to double in price (they have been selling for $12k-$17k) as well.
Not a FASC one in the lot.....over/under on Jordan's in this 6 box lot?
Imagine forking over the loot and then learning the hard way that 86 Fleer is the grand daddy of them all for pack sequencing?
See Steve's letter included with the pictures. It is believed that all packs are original to the box which would mean that you would be able to get 3-4 jordan's out of each box. Those boxes came from a pretty awesome find!
@JWBlue said:
Have a feeling these are NBA players buying the Jordan cards.
Just wait till they start buying up their own high end cards, then after a great game or great week they start selling for much higher. That would be some Inception-level pump & dump.
Ok weird feeling. And I have Covid so it could be delirium! Have a sense of a small softening has begun. Noticed a bit lower close prices for Jeter, Mahomes, Jordan. Small sample set, mid week auctions, etc.
@JWBlue said:
Have a feeling these are NBA players buying the Jordan cards.
I think it is Joe Orlando paying the insane prices in order to drive up the number of submissions. /sarcasm/
#LetsGoSwitzerlandThe Man Who Does Not Read Has No Advantage Over the Man Who Cannot Read. The biggest obstacle to progress is a habit of “buying what we want and begging for what we need.”You get the Freedom you fight for and get the Oppression you deserve.
Jordan is the GOAT but can’t keep going up 200% daily. When these guys see it slow or reverse a little bit where will the scared money go. Anyone can gamble when they are up at the table, but when they are down a little and it is their own money how do they do. It is a different animal today where guys go to shows with $200-300k and buy $25-50k cards like they were $500. These are not long term holds - they are moving money from one hot item to the next. Last year it was Zion and Luka and 2018 and 2019 unopened, and this year is Jordan, Lebron Topps Chrome, Kobe... Whatever they can grab which will appreciate fastest so they can turn and burn is where it is at.
@Goldenage said:
I will add that the Mantle crowd will be dead when those 38-40 year olds come into money 15-30 years from now. I would sell all my Mantles for Jordan’s and Gretzky’s and Brady’s ASAP.
Who exactly is "the Mantle crowd?" I was born in '72 and have always cherished my 52T Mantle. I don't think it's as easy as assuming when a certain generation dies off that it means the cards will drop. The 52T Mantle will ALWAYS be the holy grail of baseball. Just like Babe Ruth balls keep going up, but that generation has long since croaked lol
@KendallCat said:
Jordan is the GOAT but can’t keep going up 200% daily. When these guys see it slow or reverse a little bit where will the scared money go. Anyone can gamble when they are up at the table, but when they are down a little and it is their own money how do they do. It is a different animal today where guys go to shows with $200-300k and buy $25-50k cards like they were $500. These are not long term holds - they are moving money from one hot item to the next. Last year it was Zion and Luka and 2018 and 2019 unopened, and this year is Jordan, Lebron Topps Chrome, Kobe... Whatever they can grab which will appreciate fastest so they can turn and burn is where it is at.
I couldn't disagree more. Luka and Zion were speculation buys.
Lebron, Kobe, Jordan are all-timers. The best of the best. Comparing the two groups is flawed.
@Goldenage said:
I will add that the Mantle crowd will be dead when those 38-40 year olds come into money 15-30 years from now. I would sell all my Mantles for Jordan’s and Gretzky’s and Brady’s ASAP.
Who exactly is "the Mantle crowd?" I was born in '72 and have always cherished my 52T Mantle. I don't think it's as easy as assuming when a certain generation dies off that it means the cards will drop. The 52T Mantle will ALWAYS be the holy grail of baseball. Just like Babe Ruth balls keep going up, but that generation has long since croaked lol
It means an entire generation of current 20- and 30-year olds (a) don't care about baseball generally and (b) about Mantle, Ruth, or any other baseball player specifically. It's about the NBA.
The NBA's fanbase is the youngest of the four major sports; MLB the oldest. Yes, there is a "mantle crowd" (MLB fans) and that group is getting older and smaller every year, while the NBA continues to grow in popularity. Furthermore, basketball is by far a more popular sports global than baseball.
There will always be a market for high-end, desirable cards like Mantle's. But even a casual observer can see the number of highly sought after NBA cards dwarfs that of MLB cards, and it comes down to marketing. MLB does a horrific job of marketing their best players and making them effectively anonymous to the general public is a travesty.
@KendallCat said:
Jordan is the GOAT but can’t keep going up 200% daily. When these guys see it slow or reverse a little bit where will the scared money go. Anyone can gamble when they are up at the table, but when they are down a little and it is their own money how do they do. It is a different animal today where guys go to shows with $200-300k and buy $25-50k cards like they were $500. These are not long term holds - they are moving money from one hot item to the next. Last year it was Zion and Luka and 2018 and 2019 unopened, and this year is Jordan, Lebron Topps Chrome, Kobe... Whatever they can grab which will appreciate fastest so they can turn and burn is where it is at.
I couldn't disagree more. Luka and Zion were speculation buys.
Lebron, Kobe, Jordan are all-timers. The best of the best. Comparing the two groups is flawed.
I don’t think you read my post before responding. I said last year Zion and Luka were the hot buys. Did not say they were long term holds just that they were hot price increases were off the charts. Please tell me what part about that is flawed. Luka went from $1500 to $8500 in a short period of time in the PSA 10 silver. 2018-19 unopened was $500 a box and is now $8k+ a box. Same with 2019 Panini unopened - blasters went from $20 retail to $440 a box today in a little over a year. 🙄
@KendallCat said:
Jordan is the GOAT but can’t keep going up 200% daily. When these guys see it slow or reverse a little bit where will the scared money go. Anyone can gamble when they are up at the table, but when they are down a little and it is their own money how do they do. It is a different animal today where guys go to shows with $200-300k and buy $25-50k cards like they were $500. These are not long term holds - they are moving money from one hot item to the next. Last year it was Zion and Luka and 2018 and 2019 unopened, and this year is Jordan, Lebron Topps Chrome, Kobe... Whatever they can grab which will appreciate fastest so they can turn and burn is where it is at.
I couldn't disagree more. Luka and Zion were speculation buys.
Lebron, Kobe, Jordan are all-timers. The best of the best. Comparing the two groups is flawed.
I don’t think you read my post before responding. I said last year Zion and Luka were the hot buys. Did not say they were long term holds just that they were hot price increases were off the charts. Please tell me what part about that is flawed. Luka went from $1500 to $8500 in a short period of time in the PSA 10 silver. 2018-19 unopened was $500 a box and is now $8k+ a box. Same with 2019 Panini unopened - blasters went from $20 retail to $440 a box today in a little over a year. 🙄
@fergie23 said:
BriantheTaxGuy, I believe they both apply since both were examples of irrational exuberance. Personally, I hope prices stay the same or go up (I have a pretty extensive card collection) I just don't think it will happen due to past history. Everyone during the dot.com boom was saying this time it will be different, the internet changes everything. Everyone during the housing boom was saying house prices across the country can't possibly all crash at the same time, everyone needs to live somewhere.
Card prices crashed after the buyer's group in 2015/2016 specifically for the cards that were run up by them. They eventually worked their way back up from the crash but if anyone had waited they could have purchased the cards at a significant discount from their peak prices.
I have no idea where the peak will be with cards but I am 100% confident there will be a crash (30-50% drop) in the vast majority of graded cards from that peak whenever it occurs. It could be next week, it could be in 12 months. Investors look at assets very differently from the way collectors look at their cards and when these investors start selling it will be a tsunami for some of these cards (especially modern). I can't tell you how many random YouTubers have posted their 50k or 100k card collection they are "investing" in.
Robb
I could not agree more.
If the majority of this "new" money is from investors, that money can disappear as quickly as it came in.
Just using the pricing data from the "Buyer's Group" period, prices jumped 100% to 200% within a 6 to 12 month period, then fell around 50% or more from their highs over the next 12 to 24 months. Why didn't the prices sustain more? Supply did not really go up during that time. The artificial momentum wore off. The money moved to different avenues.
The current market climate is a double-edged sword - the hobby is gaining a ton of new followers and an unfathomable influx of money, but a bunch of people are going to be left "holding the bag" on a lot of stuff. Those that get burned will not stick around... And those that make out like bandits will probably not pump all their profits right back into the hobby...
@KendallCat said:
Jordan is the GOAT but can’t keep going up 200% daily. When these guys see it slow or reverse a little bit where will the scared money go. Anyone can gamble when they are up at the table, but when they are down a little and it is their own money how do they do. It is a different animal today where guys go to shows with $200-300k and buy $25-50k cards like they were $500. These are not long term holds - they are moving money from one hot item to the next. Last year it was Zion and Luka and 2018 and 2019 unopened, and this year is Jordan, Lebron Topps Chrome, Kobe... Whatever they can grab which will appreciate fastest so they can turn and burn is where it is at.
I couldn't disagree more. Luka and Zion were speculation buys.
Lebron, Kobe, Jordan are all-timers. The best of the best. Comparing the two groups is flawed.
I don’t think you read my post before responding. I said last year Zion and Luka were the hot buys. Did not say they were long term holds just that they were hot price increases were off the charts. Please tell me what part about that is flawed. Luka went from $1500 to $8500 in a short period of time in the PSA 10 silver. 2018-19 unopened was $500 a box and is now $8k+ a box. Same with 2019 Panini unopened - blasters went from $20 retail to $440 a box today in a little over a year. 🙄
I read your comment. Apparently, I do not think you read my response.
The markets you're talking about - Luka/Zion vs. Kobe/Lebron/Jordan - are two entirely different buyers. The people getting into the all-time greats are buying a known quantity. Their careers and legacies are secure. LeBron and Jordan are the two greatest NBA players of all time. Kobe a top 10 player all time. Those cards are long-term holds. The guys dropping tens of thousands of dollars on these cards don't frighten easily. They're in it for the long haul.
The people driving up the prices of Zion, Luka, or any other player at the very beginning of their careers are speculating these players will be all-time greats and cashing out when their investment goes up.
When I see the NBA vs MLB discussion, I am curious (because I'm not a basketball collector)... are there as many passionate collectors of 2nd tier NBA "greats" as there are of baseball? The thought behind the question is whether NBA might have a bigger fan base for the super greats (Kobe, MJ, LeBron, Wilt, etc.) but not as deep of a base for the other greats of the game that aren't in any sort of GOAT conversation. I just notice that in baseball, you have huge fan bases for people like Dale Murphy, Don Mattingly, Steve Garvey, etc. that I think drives baseball pricing over the long haul in a broader sense than maybe basketball does. I'm happy to be told I'm wrong, it is really more of a question than an assertion. There will always be a market for the super-greats/legends of the game long after the generations that saw them compete have moved on. Ruth, Gehrig, Cobb, Walter Johnson, Aaron, Mays, Mantle, and now Griffey will never have trouble finding a market. Just like MJ, Kobe, LeBron, Wilt, Abdul-Jabbar, Magic, Larry etc. won't ever have trouble. But what about the 2nd tier? And would that help alter pricing for a sport's cards, or not?
kevin
@KendallCat said:
Jordan is the GOAT but can’t keep going up 200% daily. When these guys see it slow or reverse a little bit where will the scared money go. Anyone can gamble when they are up at the table, but when they are down a little and it is their own money how do they do. It is a different animal today where guys go to shows with $200-300k and buy $25-50k cards like they were $500. These are not long term holds - they are moving money from one hot item to the next. Last year it was Zion and Luka and 2018 and 2019 unopened, and this year is Jordan, Lebron Topps Chrome, Kobe... Whatever they can grab which will appreciate fastest so they can turn and burn is where it is at.
I couldn't disagree more. Luka and Zion were speculation buys.
Lebron, Kobe, Jordan are all-timers. The best of the best. Comparing the two groups is flawed.
I don’t think you read my post before responding. I said last year Zion and Luka were the hot buys. Did not say they were long term holds just that they were hot price increases were off the charts. Please tell me what part about that is flawed. Luka went from $1500 to $8500 in a short period of time in the PSA 10 silver. 2018-19 unopened was $500 a box and is now $8k+ a box. Same with 2019 Panini unopened - blasters went from $20 retail to $440 a box today in a little over a year. 🙄
I read your comment. Apparently, I do not think you read my response.
The markets you're talking about - Luka/Zion vs. Kobe/Lebron/Jordan - are two entirely different buyers. The people getting into the all-time greats are buying a known quantity. Their careers and legacies are secure. LeBron and Jordan are the two greatest NBA players of all time. Kobe a top 10 player all time. Those cards are long-term holds. The guys dropping tens of thousands of dollars on these cards don't frighten easily. They're in it for the long haul.
The people driving up the prices of Zion, Luka, or any other player at the very beginning of their careers are speculating these players will be all-time greats and cashing out when their investment goes up.
Again read comments first before firing off the remarks and you will see we are saying the same thing. These things don’t have to be mutually exclusive. Zion and Luka buyers chase the quick buck and turn and flip for money, and Kobe, Jordan, LBJ buyers can do the same plus collect for the long haul. There are two sets of buyers who intersect.
Basketball buyers tend to ride the quick wave of appreciation since guys can go from college to NBA and be a star overnight. Of course MJ and Kobe are going to be settled in as stars since their careers are over and their stories told. Luka could be a 5 time MVP with 3 rings and be the all time leader in triple doubles and assists, or he could struggle in Dallas and just put up stats. Does not take a genius to know Jordan and LBJ are secure in their status in the NBA as GOATs and long term holds. Glad you took the time to clarify that for everyone.
@KendallCat said:
Jordan is the GOAT but can’t keep going up 200% daily. When these guys see it slow or reverse a little bit where will the scared money go. Anyone can gamble when they are up at the table, but when they are down a little and it is their own money how do they do. It is a different animal today where guys go to shows with $200-300k and buy $25-50k cards like they were $500. These are not long term holds - they are moving money from one hot item to the next. Last year it was Zion and Luka and 2018 and 2019 unopened, and this year is Jordan, Lebron Topps Chrome, Kobe... Whatever they can grab which will appreciate fastest so they can turn and burn is where it is at.
I couldn't disagree more. Luka and Zion were speculation buys.
Lebron, Kobe, Jordan are all-timers. The best of the best. Comparing the two groups is flawed.
I don’t think you read my post before responding. I said last year Zion and Luka were the hot buys. Did not say they were long term holds just that they were hot price increases were off the charts. Please tell me what part about that is flawed. Luka went from $1500 to $8500 in a short period of time in the PSA 10 silver. 2018-19 unopened was $500 a box and is now $8k+ a box. Same with 2019 Panini unopened - blasters went from $20 retail to $440 a box today in a little over a year. 🙄
I read your comment. Apparently, I do not think you read my response.
The markets you're talking about - Luka/Zion vs. Kobe/Lebron/Jordan - are two entirely different buyers. The people getting into the all-time greats are buying a known quantity. Their careers and legacies are secure. LeBron and Jordan are the two greatest NBA players of all time. Kobe a top 10 player all time. Those cards are long-term holds. The guys dropping tens of thousands of dollars on these cards don't frighten easily. They're in it for the long haul.
The people driving up the prices of Zion, Luka, or any other player at the very beginning of their careers are speculating these players will be all-time greats and cashing out when their investment goes up.
Again read comments first before firing off the remarks and you will see we are saying the same thing. These things don’t have to be mutually exclusive. Zion and Luka buyers chase the quick buck and turn and flip for money, and Kobe, Jordan, LBJ buyers can do the same plus collect for the long haul. There are two sets of buyers who intersect.
Basketball buyers tend to ride the quick wave of appreciation since guys can go from college to NBA and be a star overnight. Of course MJ and Kobe are going to be settled in as stars since their careers are over and their stories told. Luka could be a 5 time MVP with 3 rings and be the all time leader in triple doubles and assists, or he could struggle in Dallas and just put up stats. Does not take a genius to know Jordan and LBJ are secure in their status in the NBA as GOATs and long term holds. Glad you took the time to clarify that for everyone.
You say here they are "long term holds" yet in the post I responded to you claimed that people "turn and burn".
These are two completely different statements.
The people investing tens of thousands into high end Jordan, lebron, etc cards aren't the "turn and burn" crowd. Much like the guy who bought the Mantle for 5 million isn't.
They're also not the "scared" crowd you mentioned in your first comment.
I'm done debating this topic because the moving goalposts type of discussion is annoying.
It's evident with the rapid ascent in prices across all sports there's a ton of serious money flooding in and it's unlikely to slow down or go elsewhere anywhere soon.
@tulsaboy said:
When I see the NBA vs MLB discussion, I am curious (because I'm not a basketball collector)... are there as many passionate collectors of 2nd tier NBA "greats" as there are of baseball? The thought behind the question is whether NBA might have a bigger fan base for the super greats (Kobe, MJ, LeBron, Wilt, etc.) but not as deep of a base for the other greats of the game that aren't in any sort of GOAT conversation. I just notice that in baseball, you have huge fan bases for people like Dale Murphy, Don Mattingly, Steve Garvey, etc. that I think drives baseball pricing over the long haul in a broader sense than maybe basketball does. I'm happy to be told I'm wrong, it is really more of a question than an assertion. There will always be a market for the super-greats/legends of the game long after the generations that saw them compete have moved on. Ruth, Gehrig, Cobb, Walter Johnson, Aaron, Mays, Mantle, and now Griffey will never have trouble finding a market. Just like MJ, Kobe, LeBron, Wilt, Abdul-Jabbar, Magic, Larry etc. won't ever have trouble. But what about the 2nd tier? And would that help alter pricing for a sport's cards, or not?
kevin
Sure there are, maybe not as much here because this place is mostly baseball collectors but if you go over to the basketball section on Blowout you’ll find collectors of Russell & Wilt to MJ & Lebron and everyone in between. In fact they even have a Player collector list showing who collects what: https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1082937
For every member that added their name there there’s many many more who haven’t. They may not take it to a Registry type level we see here but IMO this is also a slightly older crowd here.
@tulsaboy said:
When I see the NBA vs MLB discussion, I am curious (because I'm not a basketball collector)... are there as many passionate collectors of 2nd tier NBA "greats" as there are of baseball? The thought behind the question is whether NBA might have a bigger fan base for the super greats (Kobe, MJ, LeBron, Wilt, etc.) but not as deep of a base for the other greats of the game that aren't in any sort of GOAT conversation. I just notice that in baseball, you have huge fan bases for people like Dale Murphy, Don Mattingly, Steve Garvey, etc. that I think drives baseball pricing over the long haul in a broader sense than maybe basketball does. I'm happy to be told I'm wrong, it is really more of a question than an assertion. There will always be a market for the super-greats/legends of the game long after the generations that saw them compete have moved on. Ruth, Gehrig, Cobb, Walter Johnson, Aaron, Mays, Mantle, and now Griffey will never have trouble finding a market. Just like MJ, Kobe, LeBron, Wilt, Abdul-Jabbar, Magic, Larry etc. won't ever have trouble. But what about the 2nd tier? And would that help alter pricing for a sport's cards, or not?
kevin
I don't know the answer, nor can I say which basketball players are equivalent, but I think you're missing at least two layers in between. If we consider the basketball players you mention to be at the level of Ruth, Bonds, Mays, Aaron, Clemens, then the second tier includes the likes of Maddux, Randy Johnson, Pujols, and Morgan. There is another tier which includes the likes of Trammell, Larkin, Carter, Cabrera, and Gwynn. There may even be another tier before we get to the likes of Murphy, Mattingly, Garvey. I'm not sure what the market is for the Randy Johnsons of the basketball world, never mind the Jose Cansecos.
@KendallCat said:
Jordan is the GOAT but can’t keep going up 200% daily. When these guys see it slow or reverse a little bit where will the scared money go. Anyone can gamble when they are up at the table, but when they are down a little and it is their own money how do they do. It is a different animal today where guys go to shows with $200-300k and buy $25-50k cards like they were $500. These are not long term holds - they are moving money from one hot item to the next. Last year it was Zion and Luka and 2018 and 2019 unopened, and this year is Jordan, Lebron Topps Chrome, Kobe... Whatever they can grab which will appreciate fastest so they can turn and burn is where it is at.
They're also not the "scared" crowd you mentioned in your first comment.
I'm done debating this topic because the moving goalposts type of discussion is annoying.
Thank goodness we have the know it all leaving the discussion. Not sure what was worse - your acting like a hobby expert or distorting facts to try and support your positions. Either way thanks for stopping by. Now you go can go pump up some more cards!
Its good to see Tennis cards finally get some love. People woke up and realized we are living in historical times as four of the greatest players of all-time are still currently active.
I was listening to the Michael Kay Show out of NYC. It is the #1 sports show in NY. They did a segment with Gary V and he talked about a Kobe Chrome Refractor RC PSA 10 he just bought. He talked up sportscards as an investment.
I listen to this show almost daily and this is the first time I heard them talk extensively about the hobby. Wherever this rally ends up, I think we are only in the middle innings. For as much as we all love the hobby, it is still on the fringes. I can't even think of another collector I know at work or in my social circle (and I work with people on both coasts). There may be "smart" new money coming in now, but we really won't see a bubble until loads of dumb money comes in.
Unlike the stock market with high volume of daily trading,
the card market slow speed will take a lot longer to pan out in either direction.
I have many cards yet to be realized in this "new market".
Higher prices brings out new sellers. Rinse & repeat
@DM23HOF said:
The guru hype men really turn me off.
This^
Too many of them out there pumping auctions and certain cards. If I was a betting man I would say it is employees of certain online sellers and AH’s being directed by the principals to push and pump, actual owners of the cards, or others/combo of the two. If I was wanting to grab these cards I would be quietly grabbing them and not saying anything to not alert others to what I wanted to acquire. That way I could pick up as many as I wanted at a good price for long term gains. This alone makes me think the pumpers and dumpers won’t stay long in the hobby, and sneakerbois can’t turn the Jordan shoes and others like they used to since the pandemic since there is no more rushing Foot Lockers for launches. Need another venue to make $$ in the interim so cards are where it is at.
@DM23HOF said:
The guru hype men really turn me off.
This^
Too many of them out there pumping auctions and certain cards. If I was a betting man I would say it is employees of certain online sellers and AH’s being directed by the principals to push and pump, actual owners of the cards, or others/combo of the two. If I was wanting to grab these cards I would be quietly grabbing them and not saying anything to not alert others to what I wanted to acquire. That way I could pick up as many as I wanted at a good price for long term gains. This alone makes me think the pumpers and dumpers won’t stay long in the hobby, and sneakerbois can’t turn the Jordan shoes and others like they used to since the pandemic since there is no more rushing Foot Lockers for launches. Need another venue to make $$ in the interim so cards are where it is at.
You guys are blaming the wrong boogey man. Everything today has a hype man be it Jim Cramer, Stephan A Smith, or Gary V. In August 2019 the Fed reported $658 Billion in money circulating in the system. Just last week the Fed report almost $1,500 billion (or $1.5 Trillion) in money circulating in the system. Where do you think some of the new hobby money is coming from? The hype men may be an effect but they are not the cause of the rally.
@DM23HOF said:
The guru hype men really turn me off.
This^
Too many of them out there pumping auctions and certain cards. If I was a betting man I would say it is employees of certain online sellers and AH’s being directed by the principals to push and pump, actual owners of the cards, or others/combo of the two. If I was wanting to grab these cards I would be quietly grabbing them and not saying anything to not alert others to what I wanted to acquire. That way I could pick up as many as I wanted at a good price for long term gains. This alone makes me think the pumpers and dumpers won’t stay long in the hobby, and sneakerbois can’t turn the Jordan shoes and others like they used to since the pandemic since there is no more rushing Foot Lockers for launches. Need another venue to make $$ in the interim so cards are where it is at.
You guys are blaming the wrong boogey man. Everything today has a hype man be it Jim Cramer, Stephan A Smith, or Gary V. In August 2019 the Fed reported $658 Billion in money circulating in the system. Just last week the Fed report almost $1,500 billion (or $1.5 Trillion) in money circulating in the system. Where do you think some of the new hobby money is coming from? The hype men may be an effect but they are not the cause of the rally.
Just to clarify, I am not "blaming" anyone. I don't see this as an issue of assigning blame. Never said that. Just shooting the breeze here and saying that the self-styled gurus loudly posturing like they are experts (with what credentials, I don't know) whom I should be following like a lemming, it gets my back up. I think there's a line between sharing what one loves with fellow hobbyists, and trying to get me to spend my money the way someone else wants me to. And those guys cross it, to me. I avoid the ESPN "experts" and Jim Cramer for the same reasons. Just the thought of listening to those ESPN shows where guys yell at each other over sports opinions gives me a headache LOL. That they get so well paid to do that amazes me. As to the gurus peddling their stock tips whether those be Wall St stocks or sportscard stocks, to me the second info becomes so massively available to the public, it is not all that valuable.
@DM23HOF - I was replying more to KendallCat, didn't mean to insinuate you blaming Gary V and his ilk.
I never heard of Gary V before until the segment on the show. He was actually on the show to talk about wine and the Jets, then one of the hosts asked him about his latest card purchase. The interview ended with talk about the hobby.
He didn't strike me as a Jim Cramer hype man. He said he was nervous about the money he spent on the Kobe but he believes in the asset class. He does think cards are going to replace art and stocks for some investors. I completely agree with that.
ndleo, there is a ton of money flooding into the hobby mainly because you can't save money any longer without losing to inflation. The flood of liquidity has to go somewhere and right now hot money is in trading cards. You can see that basically all quality cards are skyrocketing these days, rather than what we saw with the buyers group 5-6 years ago where the massive price jumps were mainly in a small subset of cards. We are in full mania phase and with so much money in the system, high returns will bring in even more money leading to higher returns until suddenly it stops (see GME, the last week it is down over 80%). While some cards that have gone up 10-100x in the last 13 months will retain much of their value many will drop whenever the investors start exiting. IMO this flood of new money is primarily from investors not hobbyists/collectors.
The toughest question is just figuring out when to sell. I have already failed miserably with that but we all make mistakes, though most people don't lose out on $500,000+ with their mistake I plan to continue selling some of my cards as the market goes up. In the end it is all found money for me anyway since I never imagined my cards would be anything other than a fun way of investing in my hobby. I plan to replace some of my higher end cards (think TC refractors) with the regular Topps card in PSA 9 when I do sell them.
Now all that said, in 5+ years some of today's prices will undoubtedly look like bargains while for others people will wonder what everyone was thinking.
Cool, all good. To me, I just don't like these Garys or Vegases or whoever they are out there trying to tell me what to do with my collection and my money. Maybe the greatest thing about our card hobby is that it is a place where there is no notion whatsoever of right or wrong; there's just only each individual collector acquiring the pieces they like, and there are myriad reasons why collectors like those pieces. What these self-appointed gurus are doing in my opinion is tainting the collecting waters— trying to turn everything into pure transactions devoid of any connection to the sport or aesthetics, etc. Comes down to the line between sharing one's passion and proselytizing for personal profit or ego.
@DM23HOF said:
Cool, all good. To me, I just don't like these Garys or Vegases or whoever they are out there trying to tell me what to do with my collection and my money. Maybe the greatest thing about our card hobby is that it is a place where there is no notion whatsoever of right or wrong; there's just only each individual collector acquiring the pieces they like, and there are myriad reasons why collectors likes those pieces. What these gurus are doing in my opinion is tainting the collecting waters— trying to turn everything into pure transactions devoid of any connection to the sport or aesthetics, etc. Comes down to the line between sharing one's passion and proselytizing for personal profit or ego.
The minute the Today show has a card segment, I will send my collection to PWCC.
Comments
Hahaha not yet, but give it a two weeks!!! No maybe one week😀😀😀
must be a slow week! 😉
Jordan PSA 8 closed last night (PWCC): $34,885.
I told myself once they start closing regularly above $30k I would sell mine, but with how quickly they are appreciating I will have to re-evaluate that decision.
We should all feel grateful, and to some extent lucky.
Now can at least 10 plus of you please except PSA grader jobs so we don't have to wait 6 months to get our next batch of cards graded. I need a newer, used bass boat and Spring is quickly approaching.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
In todays market, if you don't own a $10,000 card by now, then you were buying the wrong cards
A couple of PSA 8 stickers sold for $13k on ebay this week. Who would've thought?
I have a PSA 7 Jordan rookie and a PSA 8 dead centered sticker. In November you could purchase
the pair for $5K. This week you need to fork over at least $25K. I think the time has come to
part with these. No sentimental value to me, just had them since 2000.
"I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
That’s the great thing about cards. You can enjoy them until you want to trade them in for something else. A win win.
Six 86 Fleer boxes available for 4.5M
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-6-1986-87-Fleer-Basketball-BBCE-Sealed-Wax-Pack-Boxes-Michael-Jordan-RC/383932728344?hash=item59642c8418:g:sdQAAOSwpAhgGVV3
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
$100 shipping? LOL For $4.5M they better armor truck delivery that to my house.
Thanks for posting that auction. Hope those boxes stay sealed but it sure would be fun to open one.
And give colonel Steve Austin a call to escort.
A 1996 Kobe Topps Chrome refractor PSA 10 sold for $500,000 from the PWCC vault 2 days ago. Pretty sure it is a real sale since they updated the insured price of the PSA 9 Kobe TC refractor RC I have in their vault to $100,000. I bet the 1996 TC hobby boxes are going to double in price (they have been selling for $12k-$17k) as well.
Robb
About $21,000 per pack! Did '86 Fleer packs come with gum? If so...it better be chewable and soft at that price.
Not a FASC one in the lot.....over/under on Jordan's in this 6 box lot?
Imagine forking over the loot and then learning the hard way that 86 Fleer is the grand daddy of them all for pack sequencing?
Website
Ebay Store
Have a feeling these are NBA players buying the Jordan cards.
See Steve's letter included with the pictures. It is believed that all packs are original to the box which would mean that you would be able to get 3-4 jordan's out of each box. Those boxes came from a pretty awesome find!
Just wait till they start buying up their own high end cards, then after a great game or great week they start selling for much higher. That would be some Inception-level pump & dump.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
Ok weird feeling. And I have Covid so it could be delirium! Have a sense of a small softening has begun. Noticed a bit lower close prices for Jeter, Mahomes, Jordan. Small sample set, mid week auctions, etc.
Feel free to ignore; likely nothing to see here.
Steve
I think it is Joe Orlando paying the insane prices in order to drive up the number of submissions. /sarcasm/
Sell sell sell!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jordan is the GOAT but can’t keep going up 200% daily. When these guys see it slow or reverse a little bit where will the scared money go. Anyone can gamble when they are up at the table, but when they are down a little and it is their own money how do they do. It is a different animal today where guys go to shows with $200-300k and buy $25-50k cards like they were $500. These are not long term holds - they are moving money from one hot item to the next. Last year it was Zion and Luka and 2018 and 2019 unopened, and this year is Jordan, Lebron Topps Chrome, Kobe... Whatever they can grab which will appreciate fastest so they can turn and burn is where it is at.
Who exactly is "the Mantle crowd?" I was born in '72 and have always cherished my 52T Mantle. I don't think it's as easy as assuming when a certain generation dies off that it means the cards will drop. The 52T Mantle will ALWAYS be the holy grail of baseball. Just like Babe Ruth balls keep going up, but that generation has long since croaked lol
I couldn't disagree more. Luka and Zion were speculation buys.
Lebron, Kobe, Jordan are all-timers. The best of the best. Comparing the two groups is flawed.
It means an entire generation of current 20- and 30-year olds (a) don't care about baseball generally and (b) about Mantle, Ruth, or any other baseball player specifically. It's about the NBA.
The NBA's fanbase is the youngest of the four major sports; MLB the oldest. Yes, there is a "mantle crowd" (MLB fans) and that group is getting older and smaller every year, while the NBA continues to grow in popularity. Furthermore, basketball is by far a more popular sports global than baseball.
There will always be a market for high-end, desirable cards like Mantle's. But even a casual observer can see the number of highly sought after NBA cards dwarfs that of MLB cards, and it comes down to marketing. MLB does a horrific job of marketing their best players and making them effectively anonymous to the general public is a travesty.
i have never had that problem. 😉
I don’t think you read my post before responding. I said last year Zion and Luka were the hot buys. Did not say they were long term holds just that they were hot price increases were off the charts. Please tell me what part about that is flawed. Luka went from $1500 to $8500 in a short period of time in the PSA 10 silver. 2018-19 unopened was $500 a box and is now $8k+ a box. Same with 2019 Panini unopened - blasters went from $20 retail to $440 a box today in a little over a year. 🙄
2018-19 is $8k box now?
I could not agree more.
If the majority of this "new" money is from investors, that money can disappear as quickly as it came in.
Just using the pricing data from the "Buyer's Group" period, prices jumped 100% to 200% within a 6 to 12 month period, then fell around 50% or more from their highs over the next 12 to 24 months. Why didn't the prices sustain more? Supply did not really go up during that time. The artificial momentum wore off. The money moved to different avenues.
The current market climate is a double-edged sword - the hobby is gaining a ton of new followers and an unfathomable influx of money, but a bunch of people are going to be left "holding the bag" on a lot of stuff. Those that get burned will not stick around... And those that make out like bandits will probably not pump all their profits right back into the hobby...
I read your comment. Apparently, I do not think you read my response.
The markets you're talking about - Luka/Zion vs. Kobe/Lebron/Jordan - are two entirely different buyers. The people getting into the all-time greats are buying a known quantity. Their careers and legacies are secure. LeBron and Jordan are the two greatest NBA players of all time. Kobe a top 10 player all time. Those cards are long-term holds. The guys dropping tens of thousands of dollars on these cards don't frighten easily. They're in it for the long haul.
The people driving up the prices of Zion, Luka, or any other player at the very beginning of their careers are speculating these players will be all-time greats and cashing out when their investment goes up.
When I see the NBA vs MLB discussion, I am curious (because I'm not a basketball collector)... are there as many passionate collectors of 2nd tier NBA "greats" as there are of baseball? The thought behind the question is whether NBA might have a bigger fan base for the super greats (Kobe, MJ, LeBron, Wilt, etc.) but not as deep of a base for the other greats of the game that aren't in any sort of GOAT conversation. I just notice that in baseball, you have huge fan bases for people like Dale Murphy, Don Mattingly, Steve Garvey, etc. that I think drives baseball pricing over the long haul in a broader sense than maybe basketball does. I'm happy to be told I'm wrong, it is really more of a question than an assertion. There will always be a market for the super-greats/legends of the game long after the generations that saw them compete have moved on. Ruth, Gehrig, Cobb, Walter Johnson, Aaron, Mays, Mantle, and now Griffey will never have trouble finding a market. Just like MJ, Kobe, LeBron, Wilt, Abdul-Jabbar, Magic, Larry etc. won't ever have trouble. But what about the 2nd tier? And would that help alter pricing for a sport's cards, or not?
kevin
Again read comments first before firing off the remarks and you will see we are saying the same thing. These things don’t have to be mutually exclusive. Zion and Luka buyers chase the quick buck and turn and flip for money, and Kobe, Jordan, LBJ buyers can do the same plus collect for the long haul. There are two sets of buyers who intersect.
Basketball buyers tend to ride the quick wave of appreciation since guys can go from college to NBA and be a star overnight. Of course MJ and Kobe are going to be settled in as stars since their careers are over and their stories told. Luka could be a 5 time MVP with 3 rings and be the all time leader in triple doubles and assists, or he could struggle in Dallas and just put up stats. Does not take a genius to know Jordan and LBJ are secure in their status in the NBA as GOATs and long term holds. Glad you took the time to clarify that for everyone.
You say here they are "long term holds" yet in the post I responded to you claimed that people "turn and burn".
These are two completely different statements.
The people investing tens of thousands into high end Jordan, lebron, etc cards aren't the "turn and burn" crowd. Much like the guy who bought the Mantle for 5 million isn't.
They're also not the "scared" crowd you mentioned in your first comment.
I'm done debating this topic because the moving goalposts type of discussion is annoying.
It's evident with the rapid ascent in prices across all sports there's a ton of serious money flooding in and it's unlikely to slow down or go elsewhere anywhere soon.
Sure there are, maybe not as much here because this place is mostly baseball collectors but if you go over to the basketball section on Blowout you’ll find collectors of Russell & Wilt to MJ & Lebron and everyone in between. In fact they even have a Player collector list showing who collects what: https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1082937
For every member that added their name there there’s many many more who haven’t. They may not take it to a Registry type level we see here but IMO this is also a slightly older crowd here.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
I don't know the answer, nor can I say which basketball players are equivalent, but I think you're missing at least two layers in between. If we consider the basketball players you mention to be at the level of Ruth, Bonds, Mays, Aaron, Clemens, then the second tier includes the likes of Maddux, Randy Johnson, Pujols, and Morgan. There is another tier which includes the likes of Trammell, Larkin, Carter, Cabrera, and Gwynn. There may even be another tier before we get to the likes of Murphy, Mattingly, Garvey. I'm not sure what the market is for the Randy Johnsons of the basketball world, never mind the Jose Cansecos.
Thank goodness we have the know it all leaving the discussion. Not sure what was worse - your acting like a hobby expert or distorting facts to try and support your positions. Either way thanks for stopping by. Now you go can go pump up some more cards!
Basketball cards are enjoying a lions share of the gains due to having a huge crop of superstars as well as a rich history of all time greats.
MLB and the NFL have done a horrific job promoting new players.
Its good to see Tennis cards finally get some love. People woke up and realized we are living in historical times as four of the greatest players of all-time are still currently active.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
I was listening to the Michael Kay Show out of NYC. It is the #1 sports show in NY. They did a segment with Gary V and he talked about a Kobe Chrome Refractor RC PSA 10 he just bought. He talked up sportscards as an investment.
I listen to this show almost daily and this is the first time I heard them talk extensively about the hobby. Wherever this rally ends up, I think we are only in the middle innings. For as much as we all love the hobby, it is still on the fringes. I can't even think of another collector I know at work or in my social circle (and I work with people on both coasts). There may be "smart" new money coming in now, but we really won't see a bubble until loads of dumb money comes in.
Unlike the stock market with high volume of daily trading,
the card market slow speed will take a lot longer to pan out in either direction.
I have many cards yet to be realized in this "new market".
Higher prices brings out new sellers. Rinse & repeat
The guru hype men really turn me off.
This^
Too many of them out there pumping auctions and certain cards. If I was a betting man I would say it is employees of certain online sellers and AH’s being directed by the principals to push and pump, actual owners of the cards, or others/combo of the two. If I was wanting to grab these cards I would be quietly grabbing them and not saying anything to not alert others to what I wanted to acquire. That way I could pick up as many as I wanted at a good price for long term gains. This alone makes me think the pumpers and dumpers won’t stay long in the hobby, and sneakerbois can’t turn the Jordan shoes and others like they used to since the pandemic since there is no more rushing Foot Lockers for launches. Need another venue to make $$ in the interim so cards are where it is at.
You guys are blaming the wrong boogey man. Everything today has a hype man be it Jim Cramer, Stephan A Smith, or Gary V. In August 2019 the Fed reported $658 Billion in money circulating in the system. Just last week the Fed report almost $1,500 billion (or $1.5 Trillion) in money circulating in the system. Where do you think some of the new hobby money is coming from? The hype men may be an effect but they are not the cause of the rally.
https://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h6/current/default.htm
Gary V. LOL
Sounds like CASINO. Tommy T.
Just to clarify, I am not "blaming" anyone. I don't see this as an issue of assigning blame. Never said that. Just shooting the breeze here and saying that the self-styled gurus loudly posturing like they are experts (with what credentials, I don't know) whom I should be following like a lemming, it gets my back up. I think there's a line between sharing what one loves with fellow hobbyists, and trying to get me to spend my money the way someone else wants me to. And those guys cross it, to me. I avoid the ESPN "experts" and Jim Cramer for the same reasons. Just the thought of listening to those ESPN shows where guys yell at each other over sports opinions gives me a headache LOL. That they get so well paid to do that amazes me. As to the gurus peddling their stock tips whether those be Wall St stocks or sportscard stocks, to me the second info becomes so massively available to the public, it is not all that valuable.
@DM23HOF - I was replying more to KendallCat, didn't mean to insinuate you blaming Gary V and his ilk.
I never heard of Gary V before until the segment on the show. He was actually on the show to talk about wine and the Jets, then one of the hosts asked him about his latest card purchase. The interview ended with talk about the hobby.
He didn't strike me as a Jim Cramer hype man. He said he was nervous about the money he spent on the Kobe but he believes in the asset class. He does think cards are going to replace art and stocks for some investors. I completely agree with that.
ndleo, there is a ton of money flooding into the hobby mainly because you can't save money any longer without losing to inflation. The flood of liquidity has to go somewhere and right now hot money is in trading cards. You can see that basically all quality cards are skyrocketing these days, rather than what we saw with the buyers group 5-6 years ago where the massive price jumps were mainly in a small subset of cards. We are in full mania phase and with so much money in the system, high returns will bring in even more money leading to higher returns until suddenly it stops (see GME, the last week it is down over 80%). While some cards that have gone up 10-100x in the last 13 months will retain much of their value many will drop whenever the investors start exiting. IMO this flood of new money is primarily from investors not hobbyists/collectors.
The toughest question is just figuring out when to sell. I have already failed miserably with that but we all make mistakes, though most people don't lose out on $500,000+ with their mistake
I plan to continue selling some of my cards as the market goes up. In the end it is all found money for me anyway since I never imagined my cards would be anything other than a fun way of investing in my hobby. I plan to replace some of my higher end cards (think TC refractors) with the regular Topps card in PSA 9 when I do sell them.
Now all that said, in 5+ years some of today's prices will undoubtedly look like bargains while for others people will wonder what everyone was thinking.
Robb
Cool, all good. To me, I just don't like these Garys or Vegases or whoever they are out there trying to tell me what to do with my collection and my money. Maybe the greatest thing about our card hobby is that it is a place where there is no notion whatsoever of right or wrong; there's just only each individual collector acquiring the pieces they like, and there are myriad reasons why collectors like those pieces. What these self-appointed gurus are doing in my opinion is tainting the collecting waters— trying to turn everything into pure transactions devoid of any connection to the sport or aesthetics, etc. Comes down to the line between sharing one's passion and proselytizing for personal profit or ego.
There's even a new podcast from The Ringer just about sports cards.
This rally we are seeing? This is only the beginning.
The minute the Today show has a card segment, I will send my collection to PWCC.